Dual shock setup

[Leyland1980]

I want to put a dual shock set up on my 110 defender which is setup for touring in order to reduce load on the shocks and so that if one fails then the handing will suffer less than with a single shock in each corner.

The terra firma set up seems fine for the front but I am not keen on it for the rear as it appears to reduce clearance and need shocks of different lengths.

I have seen setup for the rear where the existing shock is mirrored to the rear of the axle, I saw some on Schumacher setup Defenders in Nairobi. This requires another bracket like the existing one to be welded to the axle casing and an upper bracket to be attached to the chassis. Is any one out there running this arrangement. Any photos? Any drawbacks/problems.

If welding brackets to the axle casing i assume all the internals have to be stripped out, correct?

Cheers

John

[inside]

For touring why make things complex? Just get some Koni Raids. Job done.

[MR LR]

Why don't you just fit good, standard figment ones. Then carry spares?

That way if it blows you can take your ride back to original in 10 minutes, instead of having poorer dampening for the rest of the trip...

Cheers
Will

[Fraz]

Agree with Koni Raids but following for interest

[modman]

Have a search for Len beadell tours out of SA
One of the best reads about remote travel and shocks around period
Dc

[130man]

Hi John, I went through this process to control the ride on my heavily loaded 130. I did not then know about the Koni Raids and would recommend looking seriously at that option. My dual shock system certainly worked but it is lot of mucking around . If you want to go ahead with twin shockies I can email you some photos of how mine looked. The axle welding was done for me by guys with a Mig welder and that meant not stripping out the axles. I simply did an oil change soon after. I had the same people tap two 12mm steel plates to suit second hand chassis mounts and then Mig weld them to the chassis to match the original bracket to axle spacing. Cheers, 130man.

[Leyland1980]

Why don't you just fit good, standard figmentones. Then carry spares?

That way if it blows you can take your ride back to original in 10 minutes,instead of having poorer dampening for the rest of the trip...

Cheers

Will

That is what I have always done in the past and can be easy with rears butfronts take me more than 10minutes. With a dual setup it seems that it shouldbe fairly easy to balance damping even if you cannot find exactly the shocksyou want.


For touring why make things complex? Just get someKoni Raids. Job done.

http://www.schuhmacher4x4.com/double-shock-absorber (http://www.schuhmacher4x4.com/double-shock-absorber)

Doesn’t appear to be massively complex

I am not just thinking about touring in Australia

[inside]

The Koni Raids are proven touring shocks. For a touring application I can't see why you need more unless you want to grossly overload your vehicle.

I've given my Raids a good flogging and they just keep on going and they would be in my list if I were travelling the world in a Defender. I would check the size of them as one rear shock is likely bigger than two normal ones anyway.

[Leyland1980]

Thanks to all the Koni fans.

What I am after is as stated in the OP is some input on dual shock setup options maybe I'll fit dual Koni!

[Dougal]

Dual shocks with double the rate springs and twice the weight on board would ride okay.

Otherwise it's going to be riding very harsh.

[rrturboD]

My considerations....

I found that when fully loaded, my vehicle seemed to take quite a few cycles of the shocks to stop the movement, hence thought twin shocks may help.
I spoke with Sydney Shock Absorbers (Bilstein) and he was recommending that for dual shocks you would not just run two of the 'normal' shocks as this was sure to be way too stiff. He thought that if I advised him of my current shocks, and what was wrong, and what I wanted he would be able to come up with a set of paired shocks to do the task together.

For Rear, I was going to add a pair or shock mounts to the back of my current diff housing, and use standard upper mounts, bolted through the chassis rear of the rear axle.
For Front, I have picked up a pair of airbag shock mounts that bolt to the chassis in front of existing towers, and an airbag front housing, running 1 set up the centre of the spring as normal, and the second set in the forward position.

Since I went for articulation on the rear, and long travel Terrafirma shocks, I have not continued.

[uninformed]

I think there are a few UK companies that make front bolt on dual shock mounts. They retain the original postion and add one outboard/forward.

I agree in that you would have to get the right shocks length wise and get the valving set to your truck.

[justinc]

My angle is this;

I used to make and sell my own dual rear shock mounts, was a time consuming exercise and back when they weren't commercially available were worthwhile for sure I sent a few heavily loaded 110's and D1's outback with them on...:cool:

BUT; now there are the Koni Raid 90's. http://www.suspensionstuff.com.au/shop/product_info.php?products_id=2252 IMO there is no need for twin shocks with these, and IF you are thinking 'what if I damage one?' then the forces required to do that will leave the vehicle undriveable I expect....


IF you really want to go this way though, these are very well priced and work well,
Terrafirma Rear twin shock mount kit | Suspension - Hardware Accessories for Land Rover Vehicles (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=35&grp=303)

JC

[Leyland1980]

OK so I am sensing a theme here.

One of the reasons I am looking into dual shocks apart from advice a few years ago Schumachers in Nairobi is that apart from bushes in the past three years the only problem I have had with suspension is snapping pins of the bottom of rear shockers - this has happened to OMEs, Britpart, and Monroe, always on the rear passenger.

I appreciate that Konis are something else in terms of damping but are they any less likely to snap?

At $300+ a corner I can't afford to snap expensive shocks.

[Vern]

Your snapping cheap shocks, because they are "cheap shocks".

Koni raid 90's, research them

[Leyland1980]

I have read a fair amount about expensive shocks Bilstein, Koni etc but have never seen anything to suggest that the expensiveness has been used to stop then from snapping, rather they have "hi tech new fangled damping techno non fade temp disapato magic" are their pins actually stronger?

[inside]

the only problem I have had with suspension is snapping pins of the bottom of rear shockers - this has happened to OMEs, Britpart, and Monroe, always on the rear passenger.
How is your suspension setup? You may have an underlying issue such as your suspension using the shock extension to limit movement rather than the opposite side bump stop. Maybe a few more suspension details would help.

[modman]

I don't follow how dual rear shocks would stop snapping pins??
Like above is there an underlying problem....
Maybe a bent/twisted bottom mount?
What condition are the chassis to shock metal cup washers??
Are you using polyurethane bushes?
Is there movement in the pin through the chassis mount?

The alignment of rear LR shocks to their mounts through travel is average.
Most bottom pins that I've seen snap, fit into the above categories.
Dual shocks are so eighties compared to the technology size and price of smoothies like kings, billies, fox and koni.
Twins were the 'bomb' when mike smith was racing his blue rangie around the outback and most serious patrols of the time used them as well, but now you would be hard pressed to find a OBC type truck not using a 3 inch smoothie (or coil over)
Instead of being secretive what is the vehicle, corner weights and expected usage??
Have you a price for eight specially valved quality shocks like a Billie or koni?
The TF dual shock kits seem very reasonable for price and get the nod from blokes like JC.

Dc

[justinc]

I don't follow how dual rear shocks would stop snapping pins??
Like above is there an underlying problem....
Maybe a bent/twisted bottom mount?
What condition are the chassis to shock metal cup washers??
Are you using polyurethane bushes?
Is there movement in the pin through the chassis mount?

The alignment of rear LR shocks to their mounts through travel is average.
Most bottom pins that I've seen snap, fit into the above categories.
Dual shocks are so eighties compared to the technology size and price of smoothies like kings, billies, fox and koni.
Twins were the 'bomb' when mike smith was racing his blue rangie around the outback and most serious patrols of the time used them as well, but now you would be hard pressed to find a OBC type truck not using a 3 inch smoothie (or coil over)
Instead of being secretive what is the vehicle, corner weights and expected usage??
Have you a price for eight specially valved quality shocks like a Billie or koni?
The TF dual shock kits seem very reasonable for price and get the nod from blokes like JC.

Dc

Yes they are, compared to paying someone to fabricate a set for sure. Only one thing to remember, check the upper bracketry for tightness after initial use, and at each service. they pick up the original 3 top shock mounting holes. I have seen some come loose and break bolt/s. this was on a very loaded 110 hardtop, my guess was they hadn't been retorqued after original fitment.

jc

[Bush65]

The broken rear shockie issue is due to the way the axle articulates about the ball joint on the 'A' frame. It shifts the bottom of the shockie sideways and neither the top or bottom mount have enough flexibility to accommodate the sideways travel.

The early mounts were better than later type, but both place bending loads on the shockie. The way billies weld some of their shockies make them particularly subject to breakage.

Suspension lift and long travel make the problem worse.

Dual shockies won't fix this problem, only strong construction of the shockies, to endure the side loads.

[Leyland1980]

Thanks

What are the strongest shocks then? In terms of avoiding snapping the pins off.

[djam1]

No broken Koni Raid 90 Series here

[blue_mini]

Has anyone else broken shocks like that? Straight through the pin at the diff end?
Konis sound great but at that price you wouldn't want them to snap like the others.

[justinc]

Correctly fitted, and bushes checked and replaced as required, and no over extension IE using longer shocks without a pin to eye conversion to lower mounting, there is no reason for them to break a pin.

I have seen all manner of stupid fitments, and pins almost worn through due to lower bushes flogged away, and all of them are preventable:)

JC

[Leyland1980]

Standard length shocks bushes are watched and changed regularly, certainly on the most recent shock there has been no wear on the pin prior to snapping.

I have checked the bump stops and they are both fine.

Would an eye to eye conversion be stronger?

[justinc]

Standard length shocks bushes are watched and changed regularly, certainly on the most recent shock there has been no wear on the pin prior to snapping.

I have checked the bump stops and they are both fine.

Would an eye to eye conversion be stronger?

Does your defender still have the steel cups on the lower mountings? if so, there is the reason that the pins are snapping off aftermarket shocks.

jc

[Leyland1980]

It does!


So removing these will help? Do I just need to grind them off?

[blue_mini]

Does your defender still have the steel cups on the lower mountings? if so, there is the reason that the pins are snapping off aftermarket shocks.

jc

What steel cups are they? Doesnt it go shock, bush, washer, diff housing, bush, washer, nut?

[blue_mini]

Just googled it, is it the bit that the bush sits in on the diff housing?

[justinc]

It does!


So removing these will help? Do I just need to grind them off?

yes they are not to be used with most aftermarket shocks, as when they are tightened up the bush is compressed into the cup and the top and bottom washers end up hard against the cup, allowing no give, and the pins then break with even minimal flex.

the cups are only spot welded on, i use an airchisel to remove them...

can you post a pic of them bolted up?

jc

[justinc]

Just googled it, is it the bit that the bush sits in on the diff housing?

yup:) only useful when using shocks that are for those year models, causes a lot of problems when using others. the shocks that match these cups have longer pins, and totally different bushes and washers.

jc

[86mud]

ok my two cents....

I run the terrafirma twin shock set up using Bilstein shocks and Dobinson 19mm coils.

The ride empty in my 130 is great. not harsh at all...but empty for me is still nearly 3 tons.

[n plus one]

ok my two cents....

I run the terrafirma twin shock set up using Bilstein shocks and Dobinson 19mm coils.

The ride empty in my 130 is great. not harsh at all...but empty for me is still nearly 3 tons.

I run the same on my 110 - its a brilliant set up!

I use poly airs to adjust for full load (I'm at 2.7t empty).