Yet more turbo questions!

[jackz]

Following the incredibly helpful and detailed advice from Dougal in his turbo performance prediction thread,(thanks, Dougal :thumbsup:) I now have a shiny new TD04HL-19T sitting on the desk in front of me, and a manifold on its way.

Looking at the large number of turbo install threads on here has left me pondering a few things, the most pressing of which is where to get the oil feed for the turbo. As far as I can tell there are at least four options;
1. tee off the vacuum pump feed.
2. tee off the oil pressure switch port
3. use one of the plugged ports of the oil gallery near the pressure switch port
4. change the filter mounting to turbo type with the tapping for oil feed.

Having just bought a dozen genuine filters for the single spin on mount I don't really want to go option #4. any thought on best of the other 3, or indeed any solution I missed?

[Judo]

Hi jackz,

I have also just purchased a TD04HL-19T and it arrived a few days ago. What brand did you go? I have the Kinugawa.

I would have thought (1) was by far the easiest option and from the turbo build threads I've read, the most popular. Mine came with a different turbo, which I'm changing so I already had a turbo oil feed, which from your list is (3). I can take a photo tonight if you wish.

Will we be seeing photos of your build progress? Please say yes. :)

Also, have you sorted out a manifold adapter? Or is your manifold a T2 flange?

[Dougal]

Subscribing for the results.:cool:

[jackz]

Went for the kinugawa, got hit with the $100 price rise, but waited for the 5% sale they have near the end of each listing. Got onto a genuine manifold for around $250 delivered, and am going to use Dougals design of adaptor.
Still waiting on shipping quote for a McNally dual boost/egt guage from the U.S.
When it comes time to do the exhaust, will probably do a 3" exiting just forward of the rear wheel-arch.

[flagg]

Sweet :) 'bout time for an other turbo install thread :D

[jackz]

don't hold your breath waiting for each installment, my recent noisy gearbox fix turned into a 14 month $35,000 ground up resto! :o

[justinc]

don't hold your breath waiting for each installment, my recent noisy gearbox fix turned into a 14 month $35,000 ground up resto! :o

:p like it should when beginning a life together with an isuzu landy, !

jc

[uninformed]

don't hold your breath waiting for each installment, my recent noisy gearbox fix turned into a 14 month $35,000 ground up resto! :o

35k! that must be some gearbox :o

:D

[Offender90]

don't hold your breath waiting for each installment, my recent noisy gearbox fix turned into a 14 month $35,000 ground up resto! :o

Hahaha...it's funny how one thing leads to another and before you know it, you're turning it back to factory condition.


35k! that must be some gearbox :o

:D

:TakeABow: :Rolling: :Rolling: :Rolling:

[flagg]

don't hold your breath waiting for each installment, my recent noisy gearbox fix turned into a 14 month $35,000 ground up resto! :o

haha i had to replace my speedo once.. turned into a firewall replacement and total rewire. And a short in my starter motor turned into a turbo install. :angel:

[jackz]

funny thing is, the whole show seems just as deafening as it was before I started..

[jackz]

A couple of the turbo setups I looked over at the Castle Hill expo had the heater lines Teed to feed the water cooling on the turbo. Can anybody see any reason why the return from the heater core couldn't be diverted through the turbo cooling gallery before returning to the motor, aside from the possible reduction in flow through the heater core causing a problem?

[Dougal]

A couple of the turbo setups I looked over at the Castle Hill expo had the heater lines Teed to feed the water cooling on the turbo. Can anybody see any reason why the return from the heater core couldn't be diverted through the turbo cooling gallery before returning to the motor, aside from the possible reduction in flow through the heater core causing a problem?

Water cooling diesel turbos is un-necessary. But if you want to do it, you need to hook the lines up so they can thermo-siphon once the engine has shut-down. That is so hot water can rise to a higher pipe and continue on out.

If you don't, then the turbo will boil the water on hot shut down, vapour lock and get severe thermal shock if the engine is restarted soon after.

[justinc]

Water cooling diesel turbos is un-necessary. But if you want to do it, you need to hook the lines up so they can thermo-siphon once the engine has shut-down. That is so hot water can rise to a higher pipe and continue on out.

If you don't, then the turbo will boil the water on hot shut down, vapour lock and get severe thermal shock if the engine is restarted soon after.

I water cooled mine when it was first installed in the Rangie, then removed it when changing it all over to the 110 as it is not required like Dougal says. Also introduces just one more place a water leak can develop....:mad:


JC

[jackz]

Spent a few hours in the shed today, working on a manifold to turbo adapter. No namby-pamby, girly blouse profile cutting here, just good old hack-sawing and stitch drilling on the mighty aldi drill press. Though I might cave in and use the angle grinder to finish the outside profile later.;)

66796

[Ancient Mariner]

I always thought water cooled for ball bearing turbos petrol or diesel
My engine had dedicated cooling lines so used them with the new turbo

AM

[Dougal]

I always thought water cooled for ball bearing turbos petrol or diesel
My engine had dedicated cooling lines so used them with the new turbo

AM

True. But comparatively few run BB turbos on diesels. Can't wait to hear how your one goes.

[*RR*]

True. But comparatively few run BB turbos on diesels. Can't wait to hear how your one goes.

Why don't people run ball bearing turbos on diesels?

[Dougal]

Why don't people run ball bearing turbos on diesels?

Most ball bearing turbos are intended for the ricer aftermarket and aren't a good fit airflow wise for diesel engines.
Journal bearings are also more robust and suit the usage of diesel engines better.

[jackz]

Finally got my McNally Boost/EGT gauge after a month in the post. beautifully made bit of kit, almost too good to stick in the truck:)
6791967920

[flagg]

Finally got my McNally Boost/EGT gauge after a month in the post. beautifully made bit of kit, almost too good to stick in the truck:)
6791967920

niice!

[Dougal]

Finally got my McNally Boost/EGT gauge after a month in the post. beautifully made bit of kit, almost too good to stick in the truck:)
6791967920

Nice one. What size is the gauge and can it be configured for degrees C?

[jackz]

It's 52mm. There's a small button on the face that is used to display the peak values of boost and egt, reset the peak values, swap between ℃and ℉, and display volts on the led display. There is also a light sensor on the face which I assume is for auto dimming. The gauge appears really well constructed using quality components. The company makes electronics for aviation , including control systems for military drones so should be rather good at what they do. The bushes are available in heaps of different combinations, and will custom make for very reasonable cost. http://mcnallyelectronics.com/

[jackz]

^gauges, not bushes. BLOODY STUPID PHONE!!!!!!

[Judo]

Those gauges look excellent. I was looking for one months ago, but I couldn't find any combination ones that look that good with the option for C and psi / EGT and boost. I will very tempted to upgrade to one of those now. :)

[jackz]

I looked at the ones on eBay but they were pretty crap, even at eBay prices. The 300 landed for these was not too bad, I thought.
I have put a couple of digital voltmeters in the overhead console, for the main and aux batteries, so will pull the original voltmeter from the dash and replace with the boost/egt. Will probably replace the temp with a dual water temp/ oil pressure one.

[jackz]

Officially started my chrissy holidays yesterday, so started doing a trial instal of the turbo. all went fairly straightforward. Mounted the provent on the guard just in front of the washer bottle.
Drilled and tapped one of the two raised mounting bosses on the inlet manifold elbow to take the sensor for the boost gauge. Was a bit concerned about where to tap the manifold, being unsure of the casting's thickness, but the boss turned out to be ideal.
Found a small oval plate bolted to the block just above the brush end of the starter, which I assume is used on the turbo motors for an oil return, so will most likely drain the turbo and provent to there.
Just a couple of minor annoyances that I hadn't counted on.
1; The turbo manifold sits a lot closer to the head than the N.A. manifold, meaning the dipstick tube can no longer pass behind it.
2; the original steel pipes for the heater pass right through where the inlet to the compressor goes so will need to make up new pipes.700937009470095

[Judo]

Do you have a pic of where you tapped for the oil return?

I.E. Do you mean the oil pump cover? (Thanks for the pic Steve)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/355.jpg

Need to be careful how you tap it.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/178143-tapping-oil-pump-cover-turbo-oil-return.html

[jackz]

Mine has this 70097
just forward and below the oil pump cover. I assume it is for the turbo drain on the turbo motors. Going to TIG a 16mm pipe stub to it to suit the turbo drain with a 1/2" tee for the provent drain.
I notice your oil pump cover appears to be just a flat steel plate, the same as mine, as opposed to the casting shown in many of the other threads, is the other side flat?

[Bush65]

Correct, that is where the turbo drain goes on a 4BD1T.

[Bush65]

Do you have a pic of where you tapped for the oil return?

I.E. Do you mean the oil pump cover? (Thanks for the pic Steve)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/355.jpg

Need to be careful how you tap it.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/178143-tapping-oil-pump-cover-turbo-oil-return.html
On my 4BD1T engine that is not a cover plate, but a bearing for the pump shaft.

[jackz]

On my 4BD1T engine that is not a cover plate, but a bearing for the pump shaft.
Haven't had the one off mine but assume it is the same, though some I have seen appear to have a depression cast into the top face.

[Dougal]

Haven't had the one off mine but assume it is the same, though some I have seen appear to have a depression cast into the top face.

Some of those plates are cast, others just flat plates. My engine (85 JDM truck 4BD1T) has the flat plate over the oil pump drive.

[steveG]

Thats mine (early Stage1 engine) in the photo above, its cast and is the support for the pump shaft. Somewhere around here there is a photo from the underside showing the support, and where the hole comes through.

Something to note in that photo (if I haven't already mentioned it previously) is the reason I used a separate 45deg fitting and tail instead of a one piece 45deg with barbed tail was that the single piece items only had very small holes through them. I'm sure would have caused a restriction issue.
Using 2 separate fittings allowed me to easily get a larger diameter through the whole fitting.

Steve

[Judo]

FYI Underside of my oil pump cover with 18mm spanner for reference. I decided to go elsewhere for oil return.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/12/354.jpg

[flagg]

In my turbo thread is a drilled underside pic. My BorgWarner turbo uses an AN10 fitting which worked ok in the pump shaft lid thing. I'd repost the pic but tapatalk is annoying.

[jackz]

collected all the mandrel bends for the exhaust today, then spent a few hours mucking around with the new tig. Made the drain for the turbo and provent. First time on the TIG for about 25 years!!!! I used to think it was easy..:o
7023270233

[jackz]

Finished the installation today, took it for a quick test run, unfortunately cut short due to an oil leak from the vacuum pump oil feed. the engine sounds a little quieter, without so much of the normal clatter at idle. There's just the slightest hint of a whistle from the pipe at idle. EGT sits around 118 at idle.
There doesn't seem to be too much difference to drive it however I did notice that it no longer pumps out a healthy cloud of black goodness whenever you're on the throttle. Which leads me to my next question; is the fuel adjustment the screw with the lockwire on the side of the pump that bears against a little lever/cam type thingy? And if so, do I screw it in or out, and by how much?:twisted:

[Dougal]

Follow what your egt gauge says.

[steveG]

Finished the installation today, took it for a quick test run, unfortunately cut short due to an oil leak from the vacuum pump oil feed. the engine sounds a little quieter, without so much of the normal clatter at idle. There's just the slightest hint of a whistle from the pipe at idle. EGT sits around 118 at idle.
There doesn't seem to be too much difference to drive it however I did notice that it no longer pumps out a healthy cloud of black goodness whenever you're on the throttle. Which leads me to my next question; is the fuel adjustment the screw with the lockwire on the side of the pump that bears against a little lever/cam type thingy? And if so, do I screw it in or out, and by how much?:twisted:

Yes, that's the screw. Screw it out one turn and go from there depending on what your EGT gauge is telling you. You'll get quite a lot higher EGT's loaded up, so bear that in mind.

Steve

[jackz]

Got to a maximum of 420deg pulling up the hill out of picton in third at around 80kph. boost topped out at around 18psi. Will give the screw 1 turn tomorrow and see what happens...
Went to post some pics of the finished install, but since the latest update to my android stupidphone, can't seem to get pics onto the :censored: 'pooter.

[steveG]

Nice. Plenty of room for improvement if you're only hitting 420deg now.
How responsive is the gauge? Mine jumps up by 200deg in a couple of seconds if I give it a bootfull, and drops instantly as soon as I lift my foot.

Is it intercooled, and what's the wastegate set at?

Steve

[jackz]

Nice. Plenty of room for improvement if you're only hitting 420deg now.
How responsive is the gauge? Mine jumps up by 200deg in a couple of seconds if I give it a bootfull, and drops instantly as soon as I lift my foot.

Is it intercooled, and what's the wastegate set at?

Steve
The gauge seems to be reponding instantly, so I have no reason to doubt it's accuracy.
No intercooler, YET, SWMBO is still on the warpath over what I've spent already. The wastegate has a 1.5Bar spring and the rod is adjusted till the spring just starts to compress, so plenty of scope to load it up a bit more.

[Dougal]

With no intercooler if you tune for 750C sustained at 20psi you'll get about 480Nm and 120kw.

Unfortunately from there increases in boost give very little increase in power without an intercoooler. You end up using most of the density increase to offset the temp increase.

Unless you just ignore the EGT gauge.:angel: You'll get to ~550Nm and 140kw before smoke becomes a problem, but I wouldn't go there without piston squirters.

[jackz]

Thanks, Dougal, I reckon I'd be pretty happy with 120kw! Do you know if the piston squirters are something that can be retro-fitted? As my block had the turbo oil return hole already in the block, I'm hopeful that the tappings for the squirters may be similarly there, but plugged. Not so much as I want to push the limits on output, but as just as a little extra "Insurance".

[steveG]

Thanks, Dougal, I reckon I'd be pretty happy with 120kw! Do you know if the piston squirters are something that can be retro-fitted? As my block had the turbo oil return hole already in the block, I'm hopeful that the tappings for the squirters may be similarly there, but plugged. Not so much as I want to push the limits on output, but as just as a little extra "Insurance".

From memory there was a change to a (higher volume) different oil pump at some stage, so that might be necessary as well as just the squirters.
Was talking to a guy who got a price on genuine squirters from Isuzu a couple of years ago - around $500 for the set of 4.

Steve

[jackz]

From memory there was a change to a (higher volume) different oil pump at some stage, so that might be necessary as well as just the squirters.
Was talking to a guy who got a price on genuine squirters from Isuzu a couple of years ago - around $500 for the set of 4.

Steve
If they are like this:70686Item #56, around $19.00 each from the U.S.
Would be interesting to have the part #s for the required parts includind the higher volume oil pump to see if it's worth doing...

[Bush65]

The change to the high volume pump occurred in late 1988. Together with the pump change, they used a smaller jet tube in the squirters for better piston cooling.

Edit:
The part number for the higher volume oil pump used on the 4BD1T from late 1988 is 8943662410

The oil jet for piston cooling for the 4BD1T from late 1988 is 8943196990 (item 56 on the diagram above)

The valve for the oil jet for the 4BD1T from late 1988 is 1131610120 (item 132 on the diagram above)

[jackz]

This is the mob in the states I got the turbo manifold from, US$156 +$55 shipping. Aust Isuzu dealers were quoing me around $360:o

Isuzu NPR Parts - Save on OEM Isuzu truck parts from Nalley Isuzu | Nalley Isuzu Commercial Truck Parts (http://www.isuzunprparts.com/)
1131610120 VALVE. CHECK,OIL; $ 7.96 each
8943196990 JET. OIL,PISTON COOLING; $ 24.44 each
8943662410 OIL PUMP AND OIL STRAINER; $ 258.71

[Dougal]

Thanks, Dougal, I reckon I'd be pretty happy with 120kw! Do you know if the piston squirters are something that can be retro-fitted? As my block had the turbo oil return hole already in the block, I'm hopeful that the tappings for the squirters may be similarly there, but plugged. Not so much as I want to push the limits on output, but as just as a little extra "Insurance".

I think I've got a super sensitive EGT probe. I show 750C while burning completely clean. I have accidentally seen 900C and still without what most people refer to as "smokey".

A lot of others run "smokey" the whole time and their engines still seem to survive. Perhaps 750C is quite conservative already, I'll have the head off my engine in the near future for a head-gasket replacement and I'll see how my (chinese aftermarket) pistons have held up.

[jackz]

Have finished the turbo instalation, the results are truly eye-opening. :eek:It starts to build boost just off idle and the slightest stab on the pedal from any speed sees an almost instant climb to the wastegated 18psi. MARVELOUS!
Thanks to all who helped with information and advice, most notably Dougal (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/dougal.html), the fount of so much technical info, and the one who gave me the inspiration to bite the bullet and "go turbo", Bush65 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/bush65.html), steveG (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/steveg.html) ,and flagg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/flagg.html), all of whom were so helpful with all the little details. Cheers.:twobeers:
So, with all this new-found power, the standard N/A clutch is starting to slip once boost hits around 10psi, when accelerating up a slight incline from around 60 in top. In ,The 4BD1 Part Numbers Reference thread,Adrian18 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/adrian18.html) has the following post;"extreme performance clutches 1100kg clamping force xhd p/n klr28003-1ax brought through abs brakes" is this 1100KG clamping force higher than the factory or the exedy pressure plate clamping force figures?

[Dougal]

Good to hear. That's exactly what the TD04HL-19T should be doing.

I plan to get one myself at some stage. If you want to get really silly, a GT3582 would compound it nicely.:angel:

[steveG]

Have finished the turbo instalation, the results are truly eye-opening. :eek:It starts to build boost just off idle and the slightest stab on the pedal from any speed sees an almost instant climb to the wastegated 18psi. MARVELOUS!
Thanks to all who helped with information and advice, most notably Dougal (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/dougal.html), the font of so much technical info, and the one who gave me the inspiration to bite the bullet and "go turbo", Bush65 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/bush65.html), steveG (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/steveg.html) ,and flagg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/flagg.html), all of whom were so helpful with all the little details. Cheers.:twobeers:
So, with all this new-found power, the standard N/A clutch is starting to slip once boost hits around 10psi, when accelerating up a slight incline from around 60 in top. In ,The 4BD1 Part Numbers Reference thread,Adrian18 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/adrian18.html) has the following post;"extreme performance clutches 1100kg clamping force xhd p/n klr28003-1ax brought through abs brakes" is this 1100KG clamping force higher than the factory or the exedy pressure plate clamping force figures?

I don't know officially what the clamping forces are, but can tell you that an almost new genuine Isuzu turbo pressure plate (10"/275mm for the landy flywheel) slips with 95kg hanging off a 2m bar :eek:

Someone who's good at maths might be kind enough to do a calc on that...

Steve

[jackz]

Good to hear. That's exactly what the TD04HL-19T should be doing.

I plan to get one myself at some stage. If you want to get really silly, a GT3582 would compound it nicely.:angel:
:oSSSHHHHH! the wife would kill me!

[Dougal]

I don't know officially what the clamping forces are, but can tell you that an almost new genuine Isuzu turbo pressure plate (10"/275mm for the landy flywheel) slips with 95kg hanging off a 2m bar :eek:

Someone who's good at maths might be kind enough to do a calc on that...

Steve

Over 1800Nm.

I think I've got the same on my Isuzu (truck 4BD1T was 275mm in the early days). It has never let go by itself.

[110dude]

Very interesting as i have turbo d my 4bd1 a few years ago > But made my own manifold ect ,used a gt25 Garrett but have found not big enough . Going to install a 2871 Garrett very soon . wouldnt mind an automatic trans as i have a r380 in it now (done 120 000km ) but its the weak link any ideas regards graeme

[justinc]

I have an outback extreme 1100kg clutch, IMO a necessitiy if towing. With 2.8t off the back I can hold the foot flat in top gear and no slippage, at all. I had a turbo spec truck clutch which has no where near the clamping force and slipped after 3 months or so. The pedal is heavier, but not difficult, the bite is fantastic:cool:.

If going auto, A Toyota A440 (early 4 spd hydraulic box) or an A442 4 spd auto from an 80 series or early 100 series diesel with a compushift controller and stronger converter would be the minimum requirement.

JC

[Dougal]

Very interesting as i have turbo d my 4bd1 a few years ago > But made my own manifold ect ,used a gt25 Garrett but have found not big enough . Going to install a 2871 Garrett very soon . wouldnt mind an automatic trans as i have a r380 in it now (done 120 000km ) but its the weak link any ideas regards graeme

That is not a good turbo choice. Bigger turbines produce less boost. Some light reading for you here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/169564-4bd1t-turbo-sizing-performance-prediction.html

Interesting with your turbo pressure plate jc. I don't know exactly how old mine is, but it hasn't been changed in the 100,000km or so I've driven it. Never slipped yet. Will see what the intercooler can do.