What is wrong with the D3/D4?

[Silenceisgolden]

I have just returned from 18,000 k's around Central Australia and the deserts. I saw literally thousands of Toyotas, maybe a hundred Defenders, a couple of dozen Disco 1 and 2's, one lonely D3 in the Gibson desert, and two D4's at Poeppels corner.

So what is wrong with these cars? Why aren't people using them? I have never had the opportunity to try mine seriously off-road. Are they any good for serious heavy corrugated outback work, or do they fall apart?

[sheerluck]

You just have to look through some of the trip reports to see that the D3&4 are great for offroading. They suffer no larger number of issues than the equivalent LandCruisers or Patrols. But because people view them as being highly technical, they probably shy away in favour of motors that can be fixed with a hammer.

Add to that the small number of LR dealer out in the wilds....

[Marmoset]

For travelling around the country I think people generally tend to buy Toyota's due to the myth that they never break down and, if they do, any garage can fix them. Combined with a lot more aftermarket accessories manufacturers and it's probably an easier option for people to stick with what they know.

LR is also a relatively small company without the marketing budget and market penetration of someone like Toyota.

There's nothing wrong with the vehicles IMO, if they were everywhere though that would detract from them!

[Disco Muppet]

they probably shy away in favour of motors that can be fixed with a hammer.

And perform as such :D

[Redback]

We bumped into a couple of guys on their way back from a 15,000k trip up through the Kimberly in their D4, we were on our 8000k trip around Sth Australia and Vic, we sat and talked for an hour or so, his only problem was two flat tyres(running 19s 3.0Ltr model) he said it was faultless, commenting "what corrigations":D

We have been pretty quiet in regards to touring, due to unforseen curcumstances, but that's about to change now that things are back on track again:burnrubber:

In short, the D4 is an awesome tourer!!!

Baz.

[jonesy63]

There are corrugations on the Gibb River Road? Not in a D3/D4! We did just on 16,000km last year up to Broome and never had a problem... apart from hitting a wallaby in the Flinders Ranges.

[BobD]

I did Perth to Cape York and return last year via all the gravel roads we could find in Central Australia and Queensland with no problems (14,000km). We have just completed a trip from Perth to Kakadu, the Binns track to Alice Springs and back to Perth via Uluru and the Great Central Road (11,000km). Again no problems. No rattles or squeaks, nothing falling off and as others have said, no better car for heavy corrugations and very rough roads or tracks.

My 2010 D4 has just ticked over 134,000km. The only things that have deteriorated due to rough roads are the front supension bushes that are now clunking more on rough roads and the rear shocks that are now pretty bouncy, although still great on corrugated roads. Also lots of stone damage on the plastic bits and scratches down the side!

Bob

[discotwinturbo]

Nothing beats riding on air over corrugations.....it's sweet!

Brett.....

[Eevo]

So what is wrong with these cars? Why aren't people using them?



they are ugly.

[sheerluck]

they are ugly.

And cue another Eevo "subtle as a house brick" post. :zzz:

[Eevo]

And cue another Eevo "subtle as a house brick" post. :zzz:

no seriously, i wouldnt buy a d3 or d4 as i think they are ugly.

(and they dont come in manual)

[sheerluck]

no seriously, i wouldnt buy a d3 or d4 as i think they are ugly.

(and they dont come in manual)

D3 not coming in a manual? Shame you can't be right all the time hey? ;)

[Eevo]

D3 not coming in a manual? Shame you can't be right all the time hey? ;)

rare as hens teeth they are.

ive only seen 1 advertised.


still doesnt change the fact its ugly

[Crimdog]

Awesome car, just did a 3000k trip from the goldy to central qld and back. Aprox 8hrs of driving a day and didn't once feel tired or sore ( not like my old cruiser ute). I did have one problem...tyres (19" 3ltr HSE) Blew 2 perellis on sharp rocks on a gravel road! trying to find any in gladstone was near impossible. Ended up with 2 crap ones that cost me $400 each. Lesson learned for me... Take extra tyres next time.
My mates seem to think it isn't built for off road or touring! Even had my bosses friend who ownes one in Sydney say "not really meant to go offroad is it buddy" had to bite my tongue ;)

[sheerluck]

rare as hens teeth they are.

ive only seen 1 advertised.


still doesnt change the fact its ugly

So they do come in a manual then? Well who knew. :clap2:

You've gone from saying they don't exist, to they do exist, and are so uninterested in buying one you've been watching the small ads to see the number of manuals there.

Care to go for the next self-contradiction?

[PhilipA]

I am wary of D3 D4 from trip reports of the nameless club to which I belong.

I recall a few months ago 4X D3 D4 went on a trip to NT.

They lost 5 tyres between them and one of the four dropped to the bumpstops and could not be raised. It had to be driven to Darwin on the bumpstops.

I guess I am a conservative but even my 20 year old RRC didn't ever have a problem other than the rear door catches and one water pump . That and the fact I am retired led me to buy a D2 with springs. Maybe the ride is not so good but it is unusual to break a spring.

The very fact that you have to lift off the body to do some jobs on the things really puts me off, especially now they are getting older and more problems are arising like oil pumps, EGRs, Front suspension, turbos, parking brakes and so on. Plus the tyre issue which magazines have highlighted since day 1, and there is no denying it is a major issue. One person I am aware of has had 11 tyres of a particular brand fail on one D4.
There are many on here that have no problem with those things as they can afford to own cars always in warranty . But the bulk of the population cannot. So that is probably why you don't see many.

Regards Philip A

[Boofla]

11 tyres fail and didn't think to maybe switch to something else after perhaps the 2nd fail? Or 5th or 10th even???

[coolum]

Just had a week in the sand and despite the V8 HSE having undersized (wtf) 250/50 r18 (less flotation than usual) on and running 25 all round still pulled out 2 landies and a patrol with all the beaut stuff -'wheels 'lift etc

I used the (excuse) that it can happen to anyone, 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' to the thankful drivers .. perhaps there's more to it than that ?

To wit. you drive over the same ground the other car negotiated then reverse into a worse position and then still pull them out ... 'there's something happening here, but you don't know what it is do you Mr Jones..'

But I'm a novice and although have owned a LRS11, RRC, D1 tdi and now D3 V8 (and never a landcruiser - although I have experienced the pain of a drive in many - the reason the LR S11 went) no car is perfect but the D3 is well worth owning IMHO and perhaps the V8 as a second hand buy offers less risk in maintenance than the oiler as it has not timing belt, Turbo's, Diesel pump, high compression heads etc.

When it comes to taking the Body off for major work .. its probably something most mechanics would suggest is cheaper in the longrun after trying to get at things in a crowded Tojo Engine bay. couple of hours gets everything out of the way and you can then get to everything ready to drop it back on .. maybe I'm wrong on this also .?

[AnD3rew]

Have done three 5000k plus trips in my D3 as much on dirt, gravel, corrugations and Sand as possible, had zero issues and a very sweet comfortable ride everytime. Also done some bush tracks I never thought possible. People who think these cars can't go offroad don't have a clue what they are talking about.

I challenge any other make to go as many places as easily as far and as comfortably as a D3/4 straight out of he box unmodified with OEM tyres.

I would put money on it the D3/4 would win.

All the mods I have done to mine are extra protection, or touring enhancements none actually fundamentally change the basic set up of the car. The almost exceptions are AT tyres but mine are still standard size and not LT. And Llams which just allows you use the cars inherent features a little more flexibly.

Most people who use their patrols and cruisers offroad immediately lift them and change the OEM suspension

[TerryO]

I am wary of D3 D4 from trip reports of the nameless club to which I belong.

I recall a few months ago 4X D3 D4 went on a trip to NT.

They lost 5 tyres between them and one of the four dropped to the bumpstops and could not be raised. It had to be driven to Darwin on the bumpstops.

I guess I am a conservative but even my 20 year old RRC didn't ever have a problem other than the rear door catches and one water pump . That and the fact I am retired led me to buy a D2 with springs. Maybe the ride is not so good but it is unusual to break a spring.

The very fact that you have to lift off the body to do some jobs on the things really puts me off, especially now they are getting older and more problems are arising like oil pumps, EGRs, Front suspension, turbos, parking brakes and so on. Plus the tyre issue which magazines have highlighted since day 1, and there is no denying it is a major issue. One person I am aware of has had 11 tyres of a particular brand fail on one D4.
There are many on here that have no problem with those things as they can afford to own cars always in warranty . But the bulk of the population cannot. So that is probably why you don't see many.

Regards Philip A


Well Phillip this morning I had to finally agree with you, these late model Disco's are such crap, mine stopped today without warning and left me stranded on a country road for hours.

Anyway once I worked out that I had run out of fuel I stopped being angry at the vehicle and started getting angry at myself.

In reality so should those four blokes who headed north under prepared and having not done their home work on how to avoid many of the simple issues they faced.

I bet if they had joined Aulro before going they wouldn't have ended up in the mess.

Believe it or not over the years I have met quite a number of people who have owned old Rangies and Disco's who didn't know about Aulro and most of these people have also whinged about how much trouble Land Rovers are and how they couldn't wait to get rid of them.

Feel free to prefer driving your D2, that is your choice. I own a D1, D2 and D3 as you know. So far the only one that has had a major engine failure and repeated breakdowns is the D2, so good luck with it.

By the way I would rather drive around Australia in my D3 than either of the other Disco's any day and I would trust it to get me there and back more than the other two as well.

Good luck with your D2.

[jon3950]

Its funny how drivers of other vehicles go on about the 19" tyres - a problem that is easily fixed, yet think nothing of replacing their suspension, seeing it as a neccessity.

Cheers,
Jon

[IvanR]

Have owned our D3 for 4 years now (purchased 2nd hand) and travelled the Kimberlys and western Qld, 2 crossings of the Simpson Desert,and a number of other outback trips in all conditions as well as trips to the Vic high country, have only had 2 flat tyres (nails), I am now totally at ease traveling in remote parts. The D3 is just as reliable as any other 4wd. In fact 2 of our friends who have come with us on the trips have just gone and upgraded to D4's from Pajeo and Patrol. There wives could not be happier, commenting on the comfort. Our D3 has now clocked up 164000 km's and is still like new, about 22000 km's has been on out back roads. Whilst you do not come across that many D3/4's, all the owners are very happy their Disco's.
One of the claimed advantages of choosing Japanese, the avalability of spare parts is greatly over stated as most times the part you need is either in Darwin or Adelaide (as my friends have found out).


Ivan

[PhilipA]

11 tyres fail and didn't think to maybe switch to something else after perhaps
the 2nd fail? Or 5th or 10th even???
My understanding from what the person said is that the importer replaced 10 under warranty but has now refused any more.
Regards Philip A

[Gribbsmy13]

I find it interesting how many people winge about the tyres and fuel tank size. Both are easily addressed if you REALLY require it. Although I would rather pubs jerry can on the trailer, than lug around 100ltrs of extra fuel for 48 weeks a year in actually driving to work, less weight and better fuel economy.

[djam1]

Many of the D3 / D4 s here end up being sent to Perth on trucks to be repaired.
Probably a reason enough for the average non enthusiast

[~Rich~]

Many of the D3 / D4 s here end up being sent to Perth on trucks to be repaired.
Probably a reason enough for the average non enthusiast

I'm sure there are also Toyota's & Nissans sent there as well.

[Tombie]

I'm sure there are also Toyota's & Nissans sent there as well.

See lots of Toyotas on trays passing through Coober Pedy

[101RRS]

Anyway once I worked out that I had run out of fuel I stopped being angry at the vehicle and started getting angry at myself.



Hmmmm - didn't you also do that a couple of months ago :o. Haven't learnt your lesson :D - silly boy.

:D

Garry

[PAT303]

I'm sure there are also Toyota's & Nissans sent there as well.

Backloads from Newman almost always have them. Pat

[Celtoid]

Fact...OEM tyres fitted to my D4 were ... well quite frankly crap for a 4WD. It was only really apparent at the 40+% wear mark. Didn't grip so well and were unbelievably puncture prone. On the road however from new, they matched the major audience of the car.....as in, they gripped in both wet and dry, were quiet and smooth. They also enhanced a feature that no non-LR product can come close to matching....for a car that is very, very good (class-beating) off-road, it will eat all competition on-road.

However....the tyres say Goodyear on the sidewall....not Land Rover.....the change to Scorpion ATR on the sidewall soon fixed that. It's amazing how some letters change everything ;).

Mine has been on lots of long road trips and off-road on many, many occasions and is just about to hit Moreton Island again this weekend.

It's just been diagnosed as needing some suspension/steering parts replaced after 3.5 years but on the road you couldn't tell and off-road it knocked about a bit (grand total of a few $100 at LR, cheaper elsewhere). The car works so well it just compensates and nothing was coming apart.

I've had turbo problems (minor oil leaks) with mine .........same freakin turbo every time and have now had a leak in the oil pump (the only D4 on this forum reporting one.....so it certainly isn't an epidemic) .....but not once has this stopped the car from starting, running and performing. Whilst it ****s me, mine was a first build and there isn't a car in the world with this level of technology that is fuss free from day one.....or boat or plane for that matter. And there are plenty of cars around that have been on the road for decades and are still living with inherent failures.

Being a 3.0L mine had 19" wheels......after three years, I've conceded and bought 18's with Cooper LTZs. I've tested them once and I believe they will make a very big difference.....but it's just an enhancement as the 19" didn't really limit anything I did before....I just had to be a bit more cognisant and adjust to the conditions.

So....my next car will be....well, another D4....there really isn't any competition.

Kev :D

[Celtoid]

My understanding from what the person said is that the importer replaced 10 under warranty but has now refused any more.
Regards Philip A

Seriously?

Come on....what was he doing to them?

The Wranglers mine came with were crap (in relative terms) but when new they had been on gravel, rocks, sand and mud with no issue beyond their tread depth/style. Far from the toughest tyre in the world but they are pretty much a road tyre ..... but driven on with a bit of CDF they were OK, you'd have to be trying to break them to get that many failures.

[SBD4]

Seriously?

Come on....what was he doing to them?



15PSI @ 80km/h over sharp rocks...

[Celtoid]

15PSI @ 80km/h over sharp rocks...

Mmmm.....like I said.....:D

[Silenceisgolden]

Okay, thanks for all the replies. Some good, some bad, but I note that practically all the bad reports are third person stories, and the good ones are from owners. I still am surprised that there were so few on the desert roads, but that doesn't seem to be due to any lacking in the vehicle. I will try mine out one day. If it handles the rough tracks as well as the Oka does, I will be very pleased.

[PhilipA]

Okay, thanks for all the replies. Some good, some bad, but I note that
practically all the bad reports are third person stories


Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision. Bad reports from third person experience means that the onlookers benefit from the misfortune of the happy owners and do not buy. This is a general comment not specifically about D3 D4.

This "fable" that Toyotas are just as unreliable I think is dreaming. How many Toyotas are on the road compared to D4s. In Karratha alone there would be thousands of Toyotas vs maybe 10 D3 D4s. And Toyotas are the 4x4 of choice for a large percentage of the touring population. Just have a look in a caravan park in the tropics.
Again thirds person , a good friend had a LC80 . At 165,000KK and 12 or so years he had replaced the radiator and that is all. He sold it and bought a Terracan on my recommendation and has had it about 5 years now with NO problems.
How many d3 D4 owners have never had a problem with their car?

How come Land Rover consistently rates among the most unreliable cars in JD Power surveys?
Why do mechanics in the outback say to you when you go to them." Land Rover eh? They don't last out here" Mataranka mechanic who works on everything but of course mainly Toyota.

I was re reading an LRO last night and there was a big article on what to look for buying a Discovery D1, D2 , D3 second hand and they trotted out all the known problems plus a few I hadn't heard of like sunroof rails cracking, and made the comment that LR had introduced great technology that was immature and caused owners grief.

Regards Philip A

[Redback]

Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision. Bad reports from third person experience means that the onlookers benefit from the misfortune of the happy owners and do not buy. This is a general comment not specifically about D3 D4.

This "fable" that Toyotas are just as unreliable I think is dreaming. How many Toyotas are on the road compared to D4s. In Karratha alone there would be thousands of Toyotas vs maybe 10 D3 D4s. And Toyotas are the 4x4 of choice for a large percentage of the touring population. Just have a look in a caravan park in the tropics.
Again thirds person , a good friend had a LC80 . At 165,000KK and 12 or so years he had replaced the radiator and that is all. He sold it and bought a Terracan on my recommendation and has had it about 5 years now with NO problems.
How many d3 D4 owners have never had a problem with their car?

How come Land Rover consistently rates among the most unreliable cars in JD Power surveys?
Why do mechanics in the outback say to you when you go to them." Land Rover eh? They don't last out here" Mataranka mechanic who works on everything but of course mainly Toyota.

I was re reading an LRO last night and there was a big article on what to look for buying a Discovery D1, D2 , D3 second hand and they trotted out all the known problems plus a few I hadn't heard of like sunroof rails cracking, and made the comment that LR had introduced great technology that was immature and caused owners grief.

Regards Philip A

Sounds like you're on the wrong forum!!!

Baz.

[TerryO]

Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision. Bad reports from third person experience means that the onlookers benefit from the misfortune of the happy owners and do not buy. This is a general comment not specifically about D3 D4.

This "fable" that Toyotas are just as unreliable I think is dreaming. How many Toyotas are on the road compared to D4s. In Karratha alone there would be thousands of Toyotas vs maybe 10 D3 D4s. And Toyotas are the 4x4 of choice for a large percentage of the touring population. Just have a look in a caravan park in the tropics.
Again thirds person , a good friend had a LC80 . At 165,000KK and 12 or so years he had replaced the radiator and that is all. He sold it and bought a Terracan on my recommendation and has had it about 5 years now with NO problems.
How many d3 D4 owners have never had a problem with their car?

How come Land Rover consistently rates among the most unreliable cars in JD Power surveys?
Why do mechanics in the outback say to you when you go to them." Land Rover eh? They don't last out here" Mataranka mechanic who works on everything but of course mainly Toyota.

I was re reading an LRO last night and there was a big article on what to look for buying a Discovery D1, D2 , D3 second hand and they trotted out all the known problems plus a few I hadn't heard of like sunroof rails cracking, and made the comment that LR had introduced great technology that was immature and caused owners grief.

Regards Philip A


Give it a rest mate.

[Silenceisgolden]

Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision. Bad reports from third person experience means that the onlookers benefit from the misfortune of the happy owners and do not buy.

Regards Philip A

Or it could mean that the third persons are trying to justify their own purchase of some fu-man-chu buzz bomb, while the owners simply rejoice in owning an enjoyable vehicle.

[wrinklearthur]

rare as hens teeth they are.

ive only seen 1 advertised.


still doesnt change the fact its ugly

I like ugly if that is what they are.
.

[sheerluck]

Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision.......

Or, and this is a really wild and out there theory, they genuinely do enjoy driving their vehicle, and considers it superior to others, despite the time the intercooler pipe split (insert other breakdown as appropriate)

[PAT303]

Of Course!!!! The "halo effect" will prevent any owner from admitting to himself that he has made a bad decision. Bad reports from third person experience means that the onlookers benefit from the misfortune of the happy owners and do not buy. This is a general comment not specifically about D3 D4.

This "fable" that Toyotas are just as unreliable I think is dreaming. How many Toyotas are on the road compared to D4s. In Karratha alone there would be thousands of Toyotas vs maybe 10 D3 D4s. And Toyotas are the 4x4 of choice for a large percentage of the touring population. Just have a look in a caravan park in the tropics.
Again thirds person , a good friend had a LC80 . At 165,000KK and 12 or so years he had replaced the radiator and that is all. He sold it and bought a Terracan on my recommendation and has had it about 5 years now with NO problems.
How many d3 D4 owners have never had a problem with their car?

How come Land Rover consistently rates among the most unreliable cars in JD Power surveys?
Why do mechanics in the outback say to you when you go to them." Land Rover eh? They don't last out here" Mataranka mechanic who works on everything but of course mainly Toyota.

I was re reading an LRO last night and there was a big article on what to look for buying a Discovery D1, D2 , D3 second hand and they trotted out all the known problems plus a few I hadn't heard of like sunroof rails cracking, and made the comment that LR had introduced great technology that was immature and caused owners grief.

Regards Philip A

How many Toyota's have you owned?,maybe you should buy a new one and drive across the interior with it and see how far it goes on standard tyres and suspension and how well your back is after a week.I find it ironic that LCOOL is a closed forum also,I bet many Tojo owners look here,funny how they don't want anyone over on their site,maybe they don't want Joe average to see the real cost of Toyota ownership. Pat

[PhilipA]

Sounds like you're on the wrong forum!!!


Give it a rest mate

Funny, I thought everything I wrote was in answer to the question of why you don't see D3 D4 out in the bush and I tried to be balanced and factual.

Could the posters who suggest I am on the wrong forum etc please explain to the poster then why D3 D4 are NOT seen in the bush and also why they sell so relatively poorly compared to other 4X4 and soft roaders in the same price range? eg X5, Jeep Grand Cherokee when the magazines etc say they are the best and they have won so many awards? And of course they have a very loyal band of owners .

I really don't think my LR qualifications can be too much in doubt except to D3 D4 owners .LOL. I think I annoy the president of one of the major Marque clubs also when I say that LR doesn't give a damn about Australia when they provide cars unsuited to Australia. Why can't they design brakes that fit 17 inch wheels? Why can't they offer long range tanks? and (I note they do in the new Range Rover). Funny but Toyota do these things.

Maybe I am a masochist but I have owned 3 RRCs and now a D2 and I do all my own maintenance and repairs. I looked at buying a D3 when I bought the D2 , but the "contingent liability" aspect always stopped me as the problems that they have when out of warranty can be very expensive. Maybe I am harping on it, but the idea of taking the body off a car to do otherwise minor repairs is just ludicrous to me. It's not the electronics , but the mechanical bits that give trouble.

Hey but it would be a dull old world if we all agreed.
Regards Philip A

[Redback]

Funny, I thought everything I wrote was in answer to the question of why you don't see D3 D4 out in the bush and I tried to be balanced and factual.

Could the posters who suggest I am on the wrong forum etc please explain to the poster then why D3 D4 are NOT seen in the bush and also why they sell so relatively poorly compared to other 4X4 and soft roaders in the same price range? eg X5, Jeep Grand Cherokee when the magazines etc say they are the best and they have won so many awards? And of course they have a very loyal band of owners .

I really don't think my LR qualifications can be too much in doubt except to D3 D4 owners .LOL. I think I annoy the president of one of the major Marque clubs also when I say that LR doesn't give a damn about Australia when they provide cars unsuited to Australia. Why can't they design brakes that fit 17 inch wheels? Why can't they offer long range tanks? and (I note they do in the new Range Rover). Funny but Toyota do these things.

Maybe I am a masochist but I have owned 3 RRCs and now a D2 and I do all my own maintenance and repairs. I looked at buying a D3 when I bought the D2 , but the "contingent liability" aspect always stopped me as the problems that they have when out of warranty can be very expensive. Maybe I am harping on it, but the idea of taking the body off a car to do otherwise minor repairs is just ludicrous to me. It's not the electronics , but the mechanical bits that give trouble.

Hey but it would be a dull old world if we all agreed.
Regards Philip A

To me you sound like someone from 4WDA or MySwag, or Overlander, I just figured why are you here if you like Toyota so much.

As for the body off thing, apparently it works out cheaper to take the body off, instead of dismantling half the engine bay to get at things, I think I'll worry about this stuff when it happens.

If you didn't buy a car on things you heard, you would be riding a push bike.

Anyway I love our D4, and so far has been great, 70,000ks in 2yrs, with any luck it will stay that way.

Baz.

[PAT303]

Phillip,my mate owns a 200 series,he also owns a '92 D1,he had the steering rack replaced,a recall as they were faulty,Toyota took the body off to do that job,he also had the turbo's and turbo pipes replaced,another recall and the body came off,twice.People critisise what they don't understand and the body off is nothing more than reversing the assembly procedure,the vehicles are designed that way. Pat

[TerryO]

This topic can go round in circles all day long because different people have different ways of measuring what is good and or bad.

You can't compare a X5 to a Disco, both have quite different capabilities, X5 owners never go off road, you hardly ever see them towing Caravans and if they are then they are small vans. Basically they are a city vehicle and they only have five seats. Plus they have little carrying room in the boot area, great for mum and the shopping but not so good for that long distance holiday with the family across the red centre don't you reckon?

Yes the new Grand Cherokee is a serious option, except its the size of a RRS, so has a tiny boot in comparison, only has five seats and the reason it sells so well is it is only roughly 60% of the price of a comparable spec Disco. You can buy a GC for $49,950 drive away at the moment, no Disco even the most basic entry level one comes within kooee of that.

Disco's are big, expensive to buy and unless you buy a top of the line model they are very basic for their price. But as an all rounder they are quite amazing and for someone who wants to go pretty seriously off road in a standard vehicle, or tow a 3.5 ton caravan easily on any surface, or sit 7 adults comfortably or just do city driving in comfort there is no equal.

The price is what stops most people from considering them, if they were 20k cheaper per model they couldn't make them fast enough I truly believe. So if they fail anything it is the cost test because the number of people who are prepared to even consider buying a new middle of the range $90,000 vehicle in this country to take off road is very small indeed.

The reason I say price is the major factor on who sells what is that Jeep has an even worse name out there for reliability than Land Rover yet they are selling heaps of them because they are good value for the price.

The almost ironic thing is Phillip, many people today don't think of Discoverys as an option becuse of the bad name the brand got because of the D2.
The very model you own because you think they are more reliable than a D3/4.

[Celtoid]

This topic can go round in circles all day long because different people have different ways of measuring what is good and or bad.

You can't compare a X5 to a Disco, both have quite different capabilities, X5 owners never go off road, you hardly ever see them towing Caravans and if they are then they are small vans. Basically they are a city vehicle and they only have five seats. Plus they have little carrying room in the boot area, great for mum and the shopping but not so good for that long distance holiday with the family across the red centre don't you reckon?

Yes the new Grand Cherokee is a serious option, except its the size of a RRS, so has a tiny boot in comparison, only has five seats and the reason it sells so well is it is only roughly 60% of the price of a comparable spec Disco. You can buy a GC for $49,950 drive away at the moment, no Disco even the most basic entry level one comes within kooee of that.

Disco's are big, expensive to buy and unless you buy a top of the line model they are very basic for their price. But as an all rounder they are quite amazing and for someone who wants to go pretty seriously off road in a standard vehicle, or tow a 3.5 ton caravan easily on any surface, or sit 7 adults comfortably or just do city driving in comfort there is no equal.

The price is what stops most people from considering them, if they were 20k cheaper per model they couldn't make them fast enough I truly believe. So if they fail anything it is the cost test because the number of people who are prepared to even consider buying a new middle of the range $90,000 vehicle in this country to take off road is very small indeed.

The almost ironic thing is Phillip, many people today don't think of Discoverys as an option becuse of the bad name the brand got because of the D2.
The very model you own because you think they are more reliable than a D3/4.

I still don't think they can make them fast enough Terry. And of those that are willing to shell out the extra readies, only a very few actually want its off-road capability....they want other aspects of this vehicle that it does so very well. Which in a nut shell, explains why you see so few of them off-road.

And yes, your last comment made me laugh my arse off....it was the D3 onwards that has started rescuing the Brand from the reliability woes of earlier vehicles. :D

Of course the self sustaining ill informed or intentional urban myths keep the rumours alive and well. God so many people hate LRs....I love it, makes me wet myself!!!

[coolum]

"Mataranka mechanic who works on everything but of course mainly Toyota".

They too require maintenance and repairs, NOT just because the percentage is higher it would seem.

[PhilipA]

The almost ironic thing is Phillip, many people today don't think of
Discoverys as an option because of the bad name the brand got because of the
D2.
The very model you own because you think they are more reliable than a
D3/4.


Yes as I said I am a masochist. I don't think it was the D2 that gave the bad rep it was the 38A, RRC and D1. The D2 is the last iteration of the RRC floorplan and has much better electrics and electronics than the previous models . Mainly because most is Bosch or Japanese as used by BMW.
Just to be clear . I don't think the D2 is more reliable than a D3, and is most probably less reliable due to age.
However most things that go wrong with a D2 can be worked on and fixed by a home mechanic or a workshop without special equipment like high roof and lifts. One is not totally at the mercy of a specialist or dealer if something goes wrong out of warranty.

Nothing wrong with a D3 or D4 if you have extended warranty and roadside assistance but that all adds to the cost of ownership.

Regards Philip A

[the_preacher1973]

How come Land Rover consistently rates among the most unreliable cars in JD Power surveys?

Regards Philip A

Correction. They used to come bottom in the JD Power surveys. Not anymore:



Whitley, Coventry - 24 May 2013 Jaguar is the number one automotive brand in the UK, according to data collated in the Vehicle Ownership Satisfaction Survey (VOSS) and Land Rover is one of the most improved brands in 6th place and entering the top ten list of manufacturers for the first time.

Land Rover has shown consistent steady improvement in the survey climbing to 6th place from 12th in 2012 and 14th place in 2011.
The Land Rover Discovery was the best performing nameplate for Land Rover up 29 places and coming top of its class for reliability.


http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-gb/jlr-corp/news/2013/05/jlr_jd_power_what_car_240513/ (http://newsroom.jaguarlandrover.com/en-gb/jlr-corp/news/2013/05/jlr_jd_power_what_car_240513/)

As has been mentioned, Land Rover's poor reputation for reliabilty largely stems from the P38A/Discovery II era.

[sheerluck]

......However most things that go wrong with a D2 can be worked on and fixed by a home mechanic or a workshop without special equipment like high roof and lifts. One is not totally at the mercy of a specialist or dealer if something goes wrong out of warranty.

Philip, I agree with this bit of your post to a point. You may have seen my thread where I'm rebuilding a D3, so my familiarity with what's under the skin of a D3 may be a little more in depth than your average owner. But what I have seen and experienced so far, is that there is little difference, just the tools (and the "tool" holding the tool :D) need to be smarter.

However, the complexity does mean that a number of roadside repairs are unachievable, you wouldn't be able to do a roadside head gasket change like Mike_ie did on his Isuzu. But with a little bit of preparation and enhancement to ensure that the known weak points are covered, I don't think there should be any barrier to taking a D3/4 anywhere remote.

[PAT303]

The JD power survey is a waste of space.I found it funny Toyota and Lexus stayed on top for reliability and customer satisfaction even when they recalled 12 million of them. Pat

[the_preacher1973]

The JD power survey is a waste of space.I found it funny Toyota and Lexus stayed on top for reliability and customer satisfaction even when they recalled 12 million of them. Pat

Funnily enough we replaced our 4 year old Toyota (owned from new) with a 2005 D3 last year as my wife had lost confidence in the Toyota. Aside from some muppet not tightening up the oil filter after a service, it's been perfect.

[ytt105]

One of the main reasons you see more Landcruisers in the outback is because they sold more of them! Its all about marketing.

When we were in Africa a couple of years ago they were more Defenders than anything else.

Also when you count the Landcruisers outback you find the majority are 80 or 100 series. The 100 finished in 2007, the D3 started in 2005 so the real vehicle you should be comparing with is the D2. But then, any reliability issues aside, the D2 can't really be termed a 'touring' vehicle in the manner of a Landcruiser on size alone.

Compared with the number of 200 series on the dirt roads, I'd think the number of D3, D4s would be similar.

In fact a mate of mine, Toyota man, bought one of the last 100s because of all the issues with the 200 series for outback towing.

[PhilipA]

The JD power survey is a waste of space.I found it funny Toyota and Lexus
stayed on top for reliability and customer satisfaction even when they recalled
12 million of them. Pat

Sigh I am not trying to be combative , but the JD Power survey is a survey of owners of cars , and they note the number and severity of faults that owners experience.

The fact that Toyota has had large recalls may mean that Toyota is very responsive to their reputation, but that very few owners actually had the fault. Contrast that to VW .

For a true example Honda recently recalled my 2006 Jazz to replace the drivers power window switch, and this was also one of the large Toyota recalls so it looks like they used the same switch. I had no problem whatsoever with the switch but some blew up after being soaked in Armorall.
This is very different to a JD Power survey which I understand logs the number of faults per vehicle experienced by owners in the first year of ownership, and sometimes subsequent years. So it is an actual measure of all faults not potential faults as a recall is.
Regards Philip A

[Disco Muppet]

Oh.
This thread again.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/234.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DiscoMuppet/media/eat-popcorn-3D_zps8933c763.gif.html)

:twisted: :angel: :wasntme:

[Celtoid]

Sigh I am not trying to be combative , but the JD Power survey is a survey of owners of cars , and they note the number and severity of faults that owners experience.

The fact that Toyota has had large recalls may mean that Toyota is very responsive to their reputation, but that very few owners actually had the fault. Contrast that to VW .

For a true example Honda recently recalled my 2006 Jazz to replace the drivers power window switch, and this was also one of the large Toyota recalls so it looks like they used the same switch. I had no problem whatsoever with the switch but some blew up after being soaked in Armorall.
This is very different to a JD Power survey which I understand logs the number of faults per vehicle experienced by owners in the first year of ownership, and sometimes subsequent years. So it is an actual measure of all faults not potential faults as a recall is.
Regards Philip A


JD Powers is very subjective and like all pure stats they can be skewed or the water muddied.

Admittedly it's been a while since I looked at one in any detail but the last one I recall didn't actually look at the severity...well I don't think so anyway. What it did do was record all reported faults, even if they were actually caused by user error .... which in the case of a D3/4/RRS can be many.

So for example, if you had a run of faulty blinker bulbs supplied by the bulb manufacturer the survey would show 20,000 failures against that Marque....hardly what a potential buyer wants when trying to shift through the myriad of details, reports, rumours...

And of course "my car wont raise after I've knocked it to access height and up to off-road every 20 seconds"....

[Celtoid]

Oh.
This thread again.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/234.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/DiscoMuppet/media/eat-popcorn-3D_zps8933c763.gif.html)

:twisted: :angel: :wasntme:

Yeah, it's been at least three months....LOL!!!!

[Ean Austral]

I think you may find that the reason Toyota has been and will continue to be is the size of the engines they have.

If you look at the Towing aspect, Toyota has had the 4.2ltr diesel for donkeys years, the engine seemed to be a good solid engine, so people looked at them for towing, and really what other option did you have... Nissan patrol 4.2, most likely the next most popular amongst the nomads. Look at what has happened to Nissan since they ditched the 4.2.

There is very few people who would tow a decent size van with a 300tdi , not saying it couldn't be done , but the reality is not many would.I did read someone say fuel capacity is also better in the L/C , well it had to be because of the engine size, just imagine a 4.2 cruiser with a 90 ltr tank. After market accessories came because Toyota has always had this large sales due to really being the only tow vehicle available for lotsa years.

L/Rover where never going to be a market force because they fell under the E U rules which punished car makers for large litre engines.

As for the reliability issues well I will leave that to others to argue, but all cars have problems, just finding out what are real and what are inflated thru chinese whispers is another story.

I remember when we were planning the canning trip in our D2 I was told I was mad and would never make it back.. Well the answer is in the trip reports.

Cheers Ean

[Fred Nerk]

I have just returned from 18,000 k's around Central Australia and the deserts. I saw literally thousands of Toyotas, maybe a hundred Defenders, a couple of dozen Disco 1 and 2's, one lonely D3 in the Gibson desert, and two D4's at Poeppels corner.

So what is wrong with these cars? Why aren't people using them? I have never had the opportunity to try mine seriously off-road. Are they any good for serious heavy corrugated outback work, or do they fall apart?

Hello all. I'm just catching up with things. My brother and I returned last week from our trip which included crossing the Simpson. We crossed the desert from west to east and travelled north to south twice and south to north twice. Nearly 700 km in the sand dunes We were at Poeppel Corner about the 4th or 5th of September. We each have a white D4. Could it be that we were the two you saw? We were the ones planking on the corner post :D

The total list of mechanical problems that we suffered between us:

A low beam headlight globe failed on my brother's car.

The bolts on the catch on my rear wheel carrier we're a little loose and needed to be tightened to latch securely.

Nothing else. No tyres were harmed.

Why don't we see more Discos out there? The answer is of no interest to me. The corrugations were bad near Mt. Dare, but seemed worse for others. We both drove the desert without difficulty. We climbed Big Red on the hardest line we could find while several others struggled and gave up (even on the easier pathways). It was great fun all round. We came home via the Inside Birdsville Track, Walkers and Old Strzelecki Tracks etc.

If you want to go, do your homework and prepare carefully. We believe you make your own luck.

[Fred Nerk]

Oops. How could I forget?

My driver side front camera was smashed. I guess a stone must have struck it. No problem really since the left front camera largely covers the same view. Very reassuring when cresting dunes to have a camera. Especially when approached by people who have no sand flags, don't have/use the radio and drive with no lights.

[scarry]

I have just got back from a 7k trip across NSW,SA,NT and western Qld,including crossing the Simpson west to east.Then did a shooting trip in western Qld,another 2K.
The D4 was fantastic,never missed a beat.
The corrugations were some of the worse i have ever been on.
Rear BFG's are very badly chipped,almost shot.

The only thing that did happen was one of the lights fell out of the bull bar,thanks to ARB.

[BobD]

I also found that the rear tyres copped a flogging on these outback roads. In my latest trip to Darwin and Central Australia the camper trailer tyres also copped it.

Bob

[Tombie]

Well I will say my farewells as it sounds like I am destined to perish somewhere near Maralinga in November...

I have no problem taking the D4 anywhere, it's proven far more robust than my Prado work vehicle - which has left me in bad situations.

The D4 has never let me down...

[XianR]

Desert roads strewn with sharp-edged rocks call for tyres with higher, reinforced sidewalls. On the 463 G-wagens, one can specify 16", which is standard on the G300 pro. This is where the Disco's fail, as it apparently cannot be fitted with anything smaller than 18".

That, and only that, is its disadvantage.

[Tombie]

Desert roads strewn with sharp-edged rocks call for tyres with higher, reinforced sidewalls. On the 463 G-wagens, one can specify 16", which is standard on the G300 pro. This is where the Disco's fail, as it apparently cannot be fitted with anything smaller than 18".

That, and only that, is its disadvantage.

On the Aus market G wagons the only version capable of running 16s is the G350 BlueTEC V6

It runs 265/70R16 tyres.

Here's something to consider:
The Discovery 2 commonly ran 235-70-16 and no one complained about narrow sidewalls. Sure many went bigger but it wasn't an issue.

Many went to 245-75-16 for that little bit extra.

No one complained!

Now the D4 has 18" rims and people are kicking up a storm!!!!

G wagon sidewall - vs - Discovery 4 on 18's running a LT - 10mm wider than stock.
66232

That's a whole 13mm difference.
Hardly likely to be the root cause of tyre destruction!

That's the difference between worn tyres and new tyres between vehicles!

[XianR]

Anywhere in Africa, except in major cities, anything larger than 16" tyres are usually not in stock. As distances are great, getting a tyre replaced may be either impossible or extremely costly, with a waiting period sometimes of weeks, not days. One puncture is bad enough, but some folks sometimes have more and that is where the trouble starts. :eek:

Running on 16" makes logistical sense here. Interesting how manufacturers configure vehicles differently for other markets. We prefer grey imports as far as TLC is concerned, as ours do not come with a second duel tank, nor with a horizontal split tailgate but a single piece. Many TLC's here come from Australia and not from Toyota SA.

[roverrescue]

Buy a d3 or 4 that has been rolled twice and tidied up for sale, then accidently drop a 300kg steel portal frame on the roof and only need a $100 twenty yearold windscreen frame and glass to fix it and do all of the above for less than 15 gorillas and then come talk about real landrovers ;)

Too expensive, too heavy and too ugly

200s cruiseres are in the same category and is why you only see them driven by govvie workers and bikkie dippers

S

[TerryO]

Real Land Rovers eh! ...hmmm ok well you Fender guys with your real Land Rovers obviously believe you have all the answers.

Me I'm happy with my pretend Land Rover. ...:angel:

[gghaggis]

Buy a d3 or 4 that has been rolled twice and tidied up for sale, then accidently drop a 300kg steel portal frame on the roof and only need a $100 twenty yearold windscreen frame and glass to fix it and do all of the above for less than 15 gorillas and then come talk about real landrovers ;)

Too expensive, too heavy and too ugly

S

Buy a horse - virtually self-repairing. None of these new-fangled internal-combustion engined jalopies can do that. ;)

Cheers,

Gordon

[discotwinturbo]

Buy a horse - virtually self-repairing. None of these new-fangled internal-combustion engined jalopies can do that. ;)

Cheers,

Gordon

Horse are fairly resilient.....but I live with them, and they cost more to keep going than my cars ever do. ;-)

I can't wait for Nicole to quit these poo making machines. ;-)

Brett.....

[jon3950]

Buy a d3 or 4 that has been rolled twice and tidied up for sale, then accidently drop a 300kg steel portal frame on the roof and only need a $100 twenty yearold windscreen frame and glass to fix it and do all of the above for less than 15 gorillas and then come talk about real landrovers ;)

I know which one I'd rather be in while it was rolling twice.

Think I'll stick with my unreal Land Rover.:tease:

Cheers,
Jon

[Gribbsmy13]

That's right, the d4 is an "unreal" Landrover. And I couldn't be happier :)

[the_preacher1973]

Real Land Rovers eh! ...hmmm ok well you Fender guys with your real Land Rovers obviously believe you have all the answers.

Me I'm happy with my pretend Land Rover. ...:angel:

Why not have one of each? Works for me. :twisted:

110 vastly superior on sand.

D3 better everywhere else.

[TerryO]

I came close to buying one not that long ago, but as the wife can't drive a manual it didn't work out.

So now I can't have one I spend lots of time telling Fender owners their all sooks and nancy boys and Fenders are piles of poo ....:angel:

Works for me anyway ...;)

[Rich84]

Horse are fairly resilient.....but I live with them, and they cost more to keep going than my cars ever do. ;-)

I can't wait for Nicole to quit these poo making machines. ;-)

Brett.....

Good luck with that ;) I've dated half a dozen horsie girls in the last eighteen months and you'd have to prize the reins from their lifeless fingers before they ever quit them :P

I don't reckon D3/4 are ugly, but if you want the awesomeness of that drivetrain in a car that looks fantastic... there's always the RRS ;) hence why I bought one of those...

[Redback]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/270.jpg

[baldivistribe]

our d4 has been more reliable than our previous Toyota. I'm happily converted.

[sniegy]

NOTHING!

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[mojo]

Why not have one of each? Works for me. :twisted:


Me too! :D

[CaverD3]

I have one of each too. :BigThumb:

[Celtoid]

Just did a week on Moreton Island with the 18" Compomotive Wheels and 285/60/18 Zeon LTZs.......flawless!!!

Talcum soft, deep sand everywhere....ate it all effortlessly.

Followed a Navara (Significant lift on it) over Coffee Rocks on the Eastern beach....his mate was guiding. He chewed sand, span wheels, bumped his bottom and dragged his tail but got over after a few false starts. His mate kindly guided me over....effortless. Rock Crawl Mode....no wheel spin, no fuss. Only scary part was going through the hole the Navara had made on one side, which created a lot of lean angle and a few sweats on my behalf. The Navara crew were openly complimentary. :)

I had passed them earlier and they told me they couldn't believe how effortless the fat Disco looked powering through the soft sand piles and zipping down the soft sand flats...."how much does that thing weigh?.....Geez it looked as if it was doing it all easy!" Which it was. :D

[Naviguesser]

Keep talking them down please.
Once they drop down further in price I can afford to move from my D2 into a D4.

I love my D2, but a D4 is a beast I would love to own next.

[Tiger15]

I've owned a V8 HSE D3 for 2 years and mostly drove it around the city like so many others. I always planned on using for its intended use but was nearly put off by all the negative stories you hear.

I use to own a landcruiser which I took around OZ when I was younger but I haven't been 4 wheeling for a long time. I was thinking maybe I bought the wrong vehicle because I don't want to waste money modifying and then loosing money.

Anyway, I thought i'd test it first then make a decision whether to keep it or trade in for a 200 series landcruiser.

Verdict: AWESOME!!
Tested it totally stock with road tyres etc. We drove around rescuing people on stockton beach, it was great on corrugations, no problems through mud and it blew my mind how well it tackled big rocks. I took it down a track that I thought it wasn't coming back from, I got to a point where there was no turning back and I seriously thought anything short of a write off would have been a miracle.

I never saw and another LR of any description, all toyota, Nissan or Jeep.

I'll be keeping it.

[WhiteD3]

Just did a week on Moreton Island with the 18" Compomotive Wheels and 285/60/18 Zeon LTZs.......flawless!!!

Talcum soft, deep sand everywhere....ate it all effortlessly.

Followed a Navara (Significant lift on it) over Coffee Rocks on the Eastern beach....his mate was guiding. He chewed sand, span wheels, bumped his bottom and dragged his tail but got over after a few false starts. His mate kindly guided me over....effortless. Rock Crawl Mode....no wheel spin, no fuss. Only scary part was going through the hole the Navara had made on one side, which created a lot of lean angle and a few sweats on my behalf. The Navara crew were openly complimentary. :)

I had passed them earlier and they told me they couldn't believe how effortless the fat Disco looked powering through the soft sand piles and zipping down the soft sand flats...."how much does that thing weigh?.....Geez it looked as if it was doing it all easy!" Which it was. :D

Mate of mine just bought a Navara on a super duper special 0.9% finance.....but checking the specs I see the dual cab ST weighs 2800 kg!

[adzee]

D3's are increasingly been purchased for offroad use by those that wanted to wait for the right price to then modify with accessories and have fun with.

I have had a ball with mine. When looking and deciding on the D3 I stretched for the D3 because of the effortless ability. It also works better the slower you go, it isn't a vehicle that needs speed offroad, because of the incredible technology and the speed of which the technology reacts. I had stock tyres, and suspension, excluding the llams unit and I never struggled where lifted 35" mud tyre cruisers did. It's ability all round is not to be discounted, if respected it will go beyond the competition.

Had many people admire it when in use and I was never let down.

Because of Land Rovers "premium" push bush types may not consider them but I tell you what, they make a 4x4 that is not equaled.

[Rich84]

On the weekend I attacked this hill without knowing how steep it actually was
Parachilna Gorge Sunset Hill - &#169 Land Rover Club of the ACT (http://www.lrc.org.au/cgcorner/data/lrc115.htm)

This is in my RRS with 20" road wheels and ROAD tires. Offroad height and low range.

AND

A fully loaded camper trailer on the back (about 1250kg)

Doesn't get really steep till the top, where it's too late to turn back!
Passengers were *****ting themselves, but the RRS just walked right up it, spitting the occasional large rock out the back.

Going back down was effortless too - the ABS system works very well for crawling down very slippery slopes. It was hard to walk down it actually (ask the two passengers that refused to travel back down in the car) but everyone commented on how easily the car did it even with the road tires and camper on the back. Obviously I'm very pleased with the RRS and can't wait for the next expedition!

[Celtoid]

Mate of mine just bought a Navara on a super duper special 0.9% finance.....but checking the specs I see the dual cab ST weighs 2800 kg!

Hey Mark,

I don't know what the premise of his statement was but I'd make a stab based on the comments they made that they were finding the going tough and were attributing it to the weight of their vehicle. So they were surprised when they saw how easily a vehicle they (rightly) assumed would be heavy, did the job.

I was only doing about 60 but the noise from the engine and transmission made it clear that the D4 was not struggling at all.

It's hard to believe a Navara weights that much. A mate of mine has one that I drove in every day for almost 5 months when doing a contract in NSW recently. His is basic and I mean basic ..... but they are tinny and rough compared to a D4 and have nowhere near as many electrical-whizzy things. They are a bit longer though.

[Boofla]

Not sure what specs you were looking at but the kerb weight should be around 2000kg.

[sheerluck]

I'm with Boofla here, the Navara is listed as a Kerb Weight of 2104kg, and a GVM of 3010kg.