Does this happen to Land Rover's too?

[wrinklearthur]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537030_10151897930328373_2049706736_n.jpg :eek:
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[BigJon]

I have certainly heard of Defender 130's breaking in the middle.

[wrinklearthur]

This dual cab belongs to my Nephew Adrian and his wife Kirsty, the photo was taken today 20-9-13.
They are on Frazer Island at the moment and they were just about to start their two week holiday with their two year old son Harvey.

I don't know the circumstances of the lead up to the chassis failing, other than to say Adrian is a responsible driver and unlikely to be driving hard especially with his family on board.

My advice to them is to not drive it and get the vehicle back to a dealer on a tilt tray.
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[d2dave]

How old is it and what is it? I could be wrong here, but the only way I could see a full box chassis in a landy do this is if it was rusted out.

My D2 is safe. It has reinforcing in the chassis, called ACE pipes.:Rolling:

[Gary S11]

This dual cab belongs to my Nephew Adrian and his wife Kirsty, the photo was taken today 20-9-13.
They are on Frazer Island at the moment and they were just about to start their two week holiday with their two year old son Harvey.

I don't know the circumstances of the lead up to the chassis failing, other than to say Adrian is a responsible driver and unlikely to be driving hard especially with his family on board.

My advice to them is to not drive it and get the vehicle back to a dealer on a tilt tray.
.
It is a tilt tray!!!!!

[GuyG]

If they can drive it off the Island it will reduce the recovery costs considerably as RACQ/towing company's charge from when they leave the mainland depot.

[Bearman]

It certainly can happen to a Landrover. I did exactly that to a S2A trayback 109. I was living in the Isa at the time and used to do trips up to Borroloola in the NT for a couple of weeks fishing. Needless to say loaded to the gunnels both ways. Bent the chassis about where the rear shockie mounts are. Luckily it happened not far from home and I managed to limp back. Several things contributed to it
1.....Overloaded
2.....The fitment of Aeon suspension rubbers to carry the heavy loads
3.....Insufficient tray to chassis mounts. The tray contacted the chassis at the front and rear only with no support in the centre above the axle area.

Took me a while but I did fix it and plated the chassis both sides in the failed area AND added more chassis to tray mounts.

[Kev the Fridgy]

If they can drive it off the Island it will reduce the recovery costs considerably as RACQ/towing company's charge from when they leave the mainland depot.

If they have RACQ Ultra the recovery is free from where the car is, my B2600 broke a transfer case at Waddy point a few years ago, we had it Tilt trayed to Rainbow, re-loaded to another tilt tray to Gympie, re-loaded to another tilt tray and then to my Mechanics at Shailer park, me as a passenger and at no additional cost........... well worth the membership as the off road tilt tray was quoted at $2500 to recover from Waddy Point to Rainbow

[Blknight.aus]

It can but its rare...

Ive seen it on a 130 but it was going the other way...

Just because you can put 2T in thetray doesnt mean you do it with a single bar ingot of metal up against the head board.

Failure method was as per Bearmans explination, tray mounts failed and the point loading crushed the chassis down from there.

[87County]

do you ever have deja vu ? :)


the following older links refer to a similar situation - link #1 also refers to it happening to D1s

dual cab utes seem to be the main type of vehicle that has the problem

the interesting question is cause - one suggestion is that lots of inexperienced people load them up and head for the bush without paying sufficient attention to correct load distribution and/or grossly overloading them ?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/115057-mitsubishi-broken-chassis.html

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=99859

[rover-56]

Thats why I like to see the axle about half way along the tray length.
Terry

[wrinklearthur]

------- dual cab utes seem to be the main type of vehicle that has the problem

the interesting question is cause - one suggestion is that lots of inexperienced people load them up and head for the bush without paying sufficient attention to correct load distribution and/or grossly overloading them ?

Those trays with that much overhang are not a good idea at all on any vehicle!

But is it the chassis or the tray mount that has failed?

Here is another photo that raises the question.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1233430_10151897928768373_404489698_n.jpg
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[loanrangie]

I reckon it was that trike up on the rack that did it :p.

[Slunnie]

But is it the chassis or the tray mount that has failed?
Looking at the first photo you can see the tow bar and spare tyre are all pointing down at the rear. I'd say the chassis bent. Normally you see these pics where people have been towing offroad.

[Redback]

From what I have seen on other dual cabs that have failed this way, the main cause has been too much weight past the axle(unsprung weight) and on most of them aftermarket airbags have been blamed, as they believe the airbags centralise the spread of weight with leaf sprung vehicles.

But you have said it's the tray that has failed and not the chassis, that maybe an easy fix, just a matter of getting the car to the local mechanic on the Island and getting him to repair it, if you have some ratchet straps, get him to strap it down and drive to the mechanic, might only cost him a couple of days out of his trip.

Baz.

[Redback]

Looking at the first photo you can see the tow bar and spare tyre are all pointing down at the rear. I'd say the chassis bent. Normally you see these pics where people have been towing offroad.

Yes have noticed this too Simon, trouble with most dual cabs, they can only carry around 500kgs and alot of owners load the back with much more and then stick a trailer on, taking the weight way over the central point of the ute, almost doubling the unsprung weight.

Baz.

[wrinklearthur]

I asked for another photo of the break and Kirsty sent me this reply.



It is bent right behind the air bags so the suspension still works it just the spring shackles are at a bad angle. I will find out on Monday if nrma will tow us off.

So airbags pumped up and the chassis has bent behind them. :(
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[RR P38]

When I look at something as simple as the radiator cap on a Hilux (Rollux)
I wonder where else they have shaved weight off from the vehicle.
For that matter most Jap cars have really small radiator caps.
There was a post on here some time ago of a Triton that had snapped in two as well, this is fairly common apparently. With the Triton the guy had 2 Mud tires hanging off the rear bar, now it shouldnt need an engineer to tell you that the lever effect is coming into play here with anything that you mount well outside of the chassis, nothing is unbreakable!
I would say most Landies that suffer this fate are well old.

[mick88]

Isn't the weight of the tray itself part of the vehicles payload when it comes to a cab chassis. Also people don't realise that roof racks are the size of a 6x4 trailer (or larger in some cases) and so they get loaded up to the hilt. I am not saying that is the case here as the roof rack looks to only have childrens plastic toys on it, but it general you see so many overloaded.

Cheers, Mick.

[Ancient Mariner]

Weight yes unsprung weight no :o diff brakes and wheels comprise unsprung weight everything else is sprung;)

[strangy]

I have now seen 12 Tritons fail exactly like this. That's 11 just here in Alice.

[wrinklearthur]

Oh spit! I will pass these photo's on for comment and see what the others say

11:38
It does look like it would be safe to drive as the tail shaft hasn't been compromised. So after taking out as much weight as you can from the bin / canopy (and that will take a couple of days short of a fortnight) place the heaviest items on the floor of the tray at the front and with the lightest at the rear.

KirstyOK. We're just waiting to hear from nrma too. The lady that took the claim wasn't too sure what the deal was so they'll ring us during the week

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/1238332_10151899690718373_264454714_n.jpg?oh=3dd2e 2198b1f9ead2032433786459ef7&oe=523F3774&__gda__=1379911753_e9adad8abfc79f2cbb0d0d6bdb86a56 e

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/v/601767_10151899691793373_1857614405_n.jpg?oh=87af6 c5cfe921e20b98297649b7f453f&oe=523F80CB&__gda__=1379914147_8c432cb9b03ad95c45cdc98c62248a4 c

[loanrangie]

At least it hasnt broken yet and is still driveable sort of.

[wrinklearthur]

I have posted those photo's for you so we'll see what comments we get back. Has Adrian caught any fish yet, what's he doing then?

KirstyNah. I fish he avoids fishing I'm just waiting for low tide to get some pippies. Adrian is drinking his beer and has played with Harvey on his bike

Ok LOL! take it easy then. I'll head outside for a while.

:( "The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters."

123.
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[BigJon]

Assuming the closeup pics above are the vehicle in question the cause is easy to see.

Overloading coupled with aftermarket airbags loading the chassis beyond it's design limits.

I bet it has never been on a weigh bridge.

Edit: Won't be a warranty repair either, assuming it is under warranty still.

[justinc]

Common failure on these lightweight vehicles with using a point load like an airbag helper, the point acts a fulcrum for all the load, as most is behind and in front, not over the top of the airbag. I recommend people DO NOT fit airbag helpers to these types of vehicles, upgrading the spring pack is the best method although the ride unladen is a problem at least this doesn't happen :(

There are some insurance companies that will allow repair of these instead of write offs, infact when one of my customers bent his NEW triton last year in WA, it was towed to perth and repaired using a Mitsubishi approved gusset etc to prevent further failures. There were 6 other Tritons at the repair facility, and several Couriers/ BT50 etc too.

What a ridiculous situation :( :( Hope they get it sorted soon Arthur, or at least able to carry on somehow with their holiday.

JC

[Graeme]

Common failure on these lightweight vehicles with using a point load like an airbag helper, the point acts a fulcrum for all the load, as most is behind and in front, not over the top of the airbag. I recommend people DO NOT fit airbag helpers to these types of vehicles, upgrading the spring pack is the best method although the ride unladen is a problem at least this doesn't happen
The people who dream up these helper airbag additions need to have a good think about where the load is carried. Making the load point so far in from the rear is just asking for this to happen. Helper airbags should be reserved for inserts to coil springs because the chassis is designed to carry the load at that one point.

[BigJon]

Another issue with helper airbags is controlling them. The extra springing is often fitted with standard dampers, meaning less than ideal axle / body control.

[ramblingboy42]

sp. spelling mistake....gunnels is actually or should be gunwhales...originally strengthened ridges at the level of the gun deck on sailing warships to allow for stresses caused by their guns or artillery. not really nitpicking but raised it as a point of interest which has nothing to do with the thread......

[justinc]

sp. spelling mistake....gunnels is actually or should be gunwhales...originally strengthened ridges at the level of the gun deck on sailing warships to allow for stresses caused by their guns or artillery. not really nitpicking but raised it as a point of interest which has nothing to do with the thread......

:p rambling again?....:D

jc

[RR P38]

If you think a Landy is unreliable........ check some of the Toyota forums out.

COMPLAINTS CORNER - TOYOTA*HILUX - MOTORSM.COM (http://www.motorsm.com/complaints/category-posting.asp?cls=199)

[101RRS]

Excuse my ignorance but what type of vehicle is in the pics and the subject of this thread.
Garry

[wrinklearthur]

Latest reply

Tell him thanks for the offer but I think we will drive it off the island with all our gear in our friends car who is coming up to help.

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[wrinklearthur]

Excuse my ignorance but what type of vehicle is in the pics and the subject of this thread.
Garry

Well to tell the truth, I don't know either. :p
So can someone positively identify that dual cab?


The subject ------- ! ????
Maybe all sorts of things that happen to other brands that may also happen to Land Rovers.

[justinc]

,mazda bt50/ ford ranger.

http://www.4wdaction.com.au/_phpBB/download/file.php?id=61525

:( hope they get to have some kind of holiday...

jc

[d2dave]

I reckon for a temporary fix, in a well uguiped workshop, this might work. Remove air bag and jack up vehicle from the tow bar. Then usinig an oxy torch, heat the chassis and it might straighten. You then weld a plate to strengthen the kink. You would probably need two torches to heat both sides at the same time.

[PAT303]

I'm in two minds about this,manufactuers fit bigger more powerfull engines to their vehicles because power sells,they don't do anything about the rest of the vehicle,just fit bigger engines,likewise people buy these vehicles and overload them to buggery,the grey nomads are shockers for doing it and the vehicle fails and it's everyone else's fault.To me I don't understand how vehicles today have to pass strict standards such as have ABS,Stability control etc but then there's no regulation as to what gets done to it afterwards,look at the Police utes with the fibreglass rear bodies,no wonder those things fall over,and who ever checks 4wds for exceeding thier GVM or gross combined limit?. Pat

[justinc]

I'm in two minds about this,manufactuers fit bigger more powerfull engines to their vehicles because power sells,they don't do anything about the rest of the vehicle,just fit bigger engines,likewise people buy these vehicles and overload them to buggery,the grey nomads are shockers for doing it and the vehicle fails and it's everyone else's fault.To me I don't understand how vehicles today have to pass strict standards such as have ABS,Stability control etc but then there's no regulation as to what gets done to it afterwards,look at the Police utes with the fibreglass rear bodies,no wonder those things fall over,and who ever checks 4wds for exceeding thier GVM or gross combined limit?. Pat

OR caravans.....But lets NOT revisit that area :o:twisted::wasntme:


JC

[wrinklearthur]

----- ,no wonder those things fall over,and who ever checks 4wds for exceeding thier GVM or gross combined limit?. Pat

A person can get caught too easy as Adrian has, there is no one around to say that the fitting of airbags could cause this failure.

It's his work vehicle that would setup the way it was, could do the work asked of it for years on smooth bitumen roads.

It's most likely the first time he has loaded up fully the space inside the canopy and maybe at the same time increased the pressure in the airbags, He has then headed off along a sandy beach with ripples and corrugations across it.

This has caused a bouncing from the overhang, coupled with a rocking fore and aft motion from the loads high centre of gravity, all pivoting around the fulcrum point which is the top of where the now tight airbags meets the underneath of the chassis, those stresses were way beyond the strength of the chassis at that point.

To fix the damage properly after it is home, I think it would be a new chassis and removal of the airbags.
Another type of dual cab vehicle with a longer wheelbase and stronger chassis is then the solution to his needs.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ :angel:
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[Redback]

A person can get caught too easy as Adrian has, there is no one around to say that the fitting of airbags could cause this failure.

It's his work vehicle that would setup the way it was, could do the work asked of it for years on smooth bitumen roads.

It's most likely the first time he has loaded up fully the space inside the canopy and maybe at the same time increased the pressure in the airbags, He has then headed off along a sandy beach with ripples and corrugations across it.

This has caused a bouncing from the overhang, coupled with a rocking fore and aft motion from the loads high centre of gravity, all pivoting around the fulcrum point which is the top of where the now tight airbags meets the underneath of the chassis, those stresses were way beyond the strength of the chassis at that point.

To fix the damage properly after it is home, I think it would be a new chassis and removal of the airbags.
Another type of dual cab vehicle with a longer wheelbase and stronger chassis is then the solution to his needs.

http://www.millpond.com.au/image/Blitz.jpg :angel:
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Just buy a wagon, a lot more practical for trips.

[Xtreme]

..............................................

To fix the damage properly after it is home, I think it would be a new chassis and removal of the airbags.
Another type of dual cab vehicle with a longer wheelbase and stronger chassis is then the solution to his needs.

:angel:
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I think you've hit on the key to stopping these dual cab utes with oversize trays from breaking.

With 50% of the load area above the rear axle and 50% BEHIND the rear axle they are a disaster waiting to happen. It's the rear overhang and subsequent load in that area, whether it be on the tray or on a trailer drawbar, that is the root cause of the problem.

In any case, I hope they get it sorted and can continue their holiday somehow.

[Disco Muppet]

Wasn't part of the issue with the Tritons that they'd extended the tray in one model but kept the chassis the same length?
It's a bugger of a thing to happen, hope they get their holiday back on track.

[Saitch]

Horses for courses I guess but it really is a sad way to start an holiday on Fraser. I'm heading up in "Old Faithful" sans tinnie. I suppose it's what you'd call an "Old fashioned no frills" vehicle. Yes, I know..........................it's not British but is coming up to 300k without a problem. Just did the t/belt before Fraser.

[PAT303]

They crack chassis real easy too,just in front of the firewall and just behind the front cross member. Pat

[BMKal]

We just had our site ambulance snap in half on Cockatoo Island a couple of weeks ago. Mazda BT50 (not the latest model - about 3 years old).

Quickest fix for us was to purchase another same model ex Government cab-chassis in Perth and send it up to the island - then just lift the ambulance box off the back of the old one and drop it on the new one. Gives us a heap of spare parts as well, as the old one was still in pretty good running order.

[debruiser]

I used to have a Ranger, 2007 model, dual cab absolutely stock standard. I didn't like the amount of rear overhang - made all the weight too far back. Also the chassis is not stiff enough IMO. When you loaded it up and drove over non-perfect road (not even off-road) you could feel the chassis flexing and twisting... wasn't a pretty feeling. If you added a trailer it just got worse. Doesn't' surprise me at all that they are having these issues.

And yes I know that Defenders twist too..... ;)

[460cixy]

I havent seen a triton bend like that. Normaly they crack at the tray mounts then just snap off. How ever I'm wondering how long till these go bendy bendy snap snap looking at the axel position in relation to the the tray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/535.jpg (http://s48.photobucket.com/user/460cixy/media/image_zps76d779db.jpg.html)

[Disco Muppet]

I havent seen a triton bend like that. Normaly they crack at the tray mounts then just snap off. How ever I'm wondering how long till these go bendy bendy snap snap looking at the axel position in relation to the the tray


A toyota?
Break?
NEVER!
:angel: :D

[d2dave]

Yes we have all seen the ads for the "unbreakable Hilux"

[Disco Muppet]

Yes we have all seen the ads for the "unbreakable Hilux"

4x4 Fails 2012 - YouTube

Go to 5 minutes.
Watch.
Laugh.
Repeat.

[rangieman]

4x4 Fails 2012 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ158NgNoPI)

Go to 5 minutes.
Watch.
Laugh.
Repeat.
You got to the 5 minute mark :eek:

Wow complete tossers , So many mistakes by these clowns ect snatch strap off the winch cable on the Navara snatch strap off the tow ball no snorkle on the lux in deep water , Some idiots buy a 4wd and think they can do anything , They should not own a 4wd :censored:heads

[460cixy]

That was pretty amusing I love how some jap stuff makes easy going look hard

[Saitch]

Heading along past Eurong, on Fraser, last week I saw a newish Ford Ranger Dual Cab heading South on the flat bed recovery truck suffering from "Pheasants Tail" syndrome.
I'm surprised I didn't see more as some of the tools towing c/trailers with these things were well & truly doing they're 80 kph along the beach, even over the sharp little crests. The tides last week meant there was no need to rush anywhere.
Maybe there should be a rule like the boating one that lowers your speed when within a certain distance of other vessels, people etc as, when we were fishing, several vehicles still continued at speed within 10 metres of where my brother, 7 & 10 year old niece & nephew & myself were fishing! Why the rush??? Slow down & enjoy the island sites.