fitting a Cross hydraulic pump to a 130 TD5

[wayne]

Hi Guys,

I am getting MR to fit a Cross 40 PO 18 hydraulic pump to my ute.
It will be driving a log splitter. I was wondering if i need to fit an oil cooler to the gearbox as it will be running for hours at a time.
I would appreciate any opinions. Warren is not in today so I was unable to ask him direct.

[schuy1]

Id be fitting a "happy" hyd pump not a "cross" 1!! :D :D Now for some sensible stuff.......... Given that you intend to run it for hours stationary a cooler would not be out of place I think. Ashcroft do a kit for the gearbox. Also a cooler in the splitter lines is an idea too. Hyd oil gets hot under heavy usage All machinery with hyd s have a cooler of some sort fitted.
Cheers Scott

[pannawonica]

I have a Speeco 10.5 hp logsplitter and after working it for a couple of hours hard I can barely place my hand on the hydraulic tank. I recon that some form cooling would be quite essential, I just go for a beer and let it cool.:D

[wayne]

Just an update on this. The hydraulics are all fitted and yesterday I bust a ute load of timber. Once I am certain that all is good with the splitter I will paint it.
I only have one small issue and that is holding the RPM at 2500. At the moment I have a lump of timber holding the throttle down and the motor bogs down when busting big iron bark logs. I am thinking I might get the cruise control modified so that it can throttle up when under heavy load.
Does anyone have a better suggestion.
Next is a hydraulic winch.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Firstly the cruise control uses a sensor in the swivels to detect speed. Unless you install a secondary sensor inside the gearbox somehow and change over when using the hydraulic pump you wont achieve your purpose.

Secondly, don't all Australian R380 already have a cooler pipe running along the chassis and back to the box which uses the rail as a heat sink. It should be relatively easy to add an extension to connect a transmission cooler element.

[wayne]

That's a bummer about the cruise control.
Yes you are correct about the cooler line. MR automotive suggested I trial it first before adding extra coolers. At this point I think it may be ok. Still early though to say for sure.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I wonder if you could fit some sort of hall effect sensor on your crank pulley and switch over from the wheel sensor when pumping.

Many after market cruise control units fit a magnet + sensor on a prop shaft for speed determination. Perhaps this would do the same with the engine crank.

You'd have to confirm the sensor type (or even use the same part) and then the cruise control may do what you want.

[wayne]

I just called Auto Strata and the guy said he was 99% certain they could do something. He needed to talk to the bossman who wasn't in. Plus they are packing up for Christmas so bad timing. I will call them in the new year.

[POD]

Might be easier to fit a simple hand throttle rather than modifying a cruise control.
Must be a hell of a log splitter.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Might be easier to fit a simple hand throttle rather than modifying a cruise control.
Must be a hell of a log splitter.A hand throttle will be little better (if any better at all) than the log on the accelerator he's already using.

Back in the days when PTO drives were common optional extras, the engines were fitted with an engine governor that would increase the throttle when the engine came under load and would throttle back when the load came off again. Wayne is attempting to do the same function using the cruise control. I admire his effort although it will need modification to work.

[rangieman]

Might be easier to fit a simple hand throttle rather than modifying a cruise control.
Must be a hell of a log splitter.

Mmm Hand throttle on a Td5 id like to see that:confused:Drive by wire;)

[Killer]

Mine had a hand throttle on it when I got it. It was simply connected so it pulled on the pedal.

Cheers, Mick.

[POD]

Yeah would be a simple matter to fit a hand throttle cable to the accelerator pedal, but re-reading the question I agree it would not solve the problem of RPM drop under load. Must be a single-stage hydraulic pump? Dedicated log-splitter hydraulics usually use a two-stage pump so you get quick ram movement under light load then full power under heavy load. A td5 running at 2500RPM would be many times more powerful than your average log splitter! Interfacing with the electronics of the existing cruise control sounds like quite a task. What about a second, older style aftermarket cruise control with magnetic pickup on your crankshaft pulley and actuator linked to the accelerator pedal?
Other possibilities I can think of- (1) a bigger diameter ram, or (2) smaller diameter logs:p

[Dorian]

If its a fly by wire accelerator then perhaps you could get a 2nd accelerator, rip the pot out of it, make an extension cable and create a hand throttle that was at the log splitter.

You just need to remember to plug the accelerator back in when you head home. :)

[Blknight.aus]

or you could use a cable pull on an extension rod and run a manual pedal over at the work station. that way you can idle it when you dont need the high flow hydraulics and you an premempt the load up.

The other thing this lets you do is fit a bypss cooler on a divert valve so if you've got the engine siting on idle (use a micro on the remote pedal ) then the hyd fluid is cooled at idle speed and the pump is unloaded, good for the life of the fluid, the pump and the lines.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If its a fly by wire accelerator then perhaps you could get a 2nd accelerator, rip the pot out of it, make an extension cable and create a hand throttle that was at the log splitter.

You just need to remember to plug the accelerator back in when you head home. :)Hi Dorian

You don't need to have an additional throttle if you can trick the cruise control to think the vehicle is moving. If you have a secondary speed sensor on the crank or somewhere else, you use the regular pedal to get the engine up to revs and then set cruise. after that its the + or - to increase or decrease revs and the brake pedal or cancel button to cancel the cruise/engine revs.

[ashtrans]

If its a fly by wire accelerator then perhaps you could get a 2nd accelerator, rip the pot out of it, make an extension cable and create a hand throttle that was at the log splitter.

You just need to remember to plug the accelerator back in when you head home. :)

We did something like this on a 2.4 tdci defender for a customer with one leg, converted to auto, removed clutch pedal and fitted a second throttle pedal and a switch on the dash so you could select which pedal was required so his able bodied wife could drive it easily and used 6 micro relays to switch between them, you could do the same with a switch to activate a throttle on the splitter which can be plugged in externally,

Dave

[wayne]

Some good suggestions guys thanks.

[wrinklearthur]

or you could use a cable pull on an extension rod and run a manual pedal over at the work station. that way you can idle it when you dont need the high flow hydraulics and you an premempt the load up.

The other thing this lets you do is fit a bypss cooler on a divert valve so if you've got the engine siting on idle (use a micro on the remote pedal ) then the hyd fluid is cooled at idle speed and the pump is unloaded, good for the life of the fluid, the pump and the lines.

Dave has it right, when there is no load or work being done the engine RPM's should be allowed to be throttled back to slow the oil flow down, this would allow the slower moving oil time to cool down using a good sized oil cooler in the return line, that should then get rid of most of the heat before it dumps back into the oil tank.

My thought's on the extra pedal potentiometer that if you measure the pot' for it's maximum resistance a suitable pot', it could be brought from a electronics store, ( there are two types of pots with two types of responses: Logarithmic, used mainly for audio work and linear, I haven't measured a TD5 pot' but I am sure a linear would be the type to get.) The whole wiring to both relays could be then wired up with a DPDT relay with the NC contacts used for road work and when the relay is energised the NO contacts are closed to allow the remote pot' to be used.

As for using the speed sensor control ( cruise control ) to be used as a engine RPM governor I would fit it in the housing for the PTO.
Count the perforations in the hub that the wheel sensor works with and divide that number by three ( diff ratio 3.5 ) and arrange a wheel with that many holes / slots for the PTO speed sensor to work to. Another setup that may be adapted is here. arduino - How do I measure the RPM of a wheel? - Electrical Engineering Stack Exchange (http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/89/how-do-i-measure-the-rpm-of-a-wheel)


Design the whole PTO, Pump hookup so when the Land rover gearbox is used, it's 1:1 ( in top gear ) that would negate any heat issues with the Land Rover's gearbox when the system is under load. Doing this the PTO would then need it's own reduction to match the RPM of the Engine at it's peak torque to the optimum working RPM of the hydraulic pump. Don't worry about any oil feed issues in the Land Rover gearbox or transferbox as the decoupled indirect gear sets are still spinning and picking up their lubricate.

When ploughing a farm tractor is set up by the correct gear selection, so when it's working it's engine constantly at a RPM above it's peak torque RPM, when a brief overload is encountered the tractor engine RPM drops back to where it's peak torque is developed. The Farmers word for this is called lugging.
For hydraulic work such as using a front end loader, the tractor engine RPM is set at a speed about a mid torque range and increased to peak torque RPM when a load is anticipated.
.

[wayne]

Piece of cake :p
On a serious note I might get some help and give it a go.

[wayne]

Just spoke to the guys at autostrada and they said it would be simple to lock in the rpm but getting it to throttle up under load would be a lot more difficult.
He said he could make me a up a second cruise control box but it would be expensive. He suggested that I purchase a second accelarator peddle and pot and he would make me a lead and do all the electrics for me.
Exactly what a few of you suggested previously. I think I will do that.
The only thing that I need to work out with the foot throttle is wether I should limit maximum rpm so I don't accidentally rev the hell out of it. I was thinking 3000 or 3500 rpm. 70% of the logs I bust 2500 rpm is sufficient.

[Blknight.aus]

do it the easy way if thats how you're going to go.

use a throttle wedge to set the no load speed (high idle) above your desired full load speed. (adjust this with the hydraulic load stalled and everything dumping back out the pressure relief valve) once you have if fully loaded up and at the rpms you want full load stall to be at unload it and the increase in speed is your lugging factor.

from there you throttle the hydraulics on a diverter valve.

theres a couple of options on how you can then set that to have a go/no go setting for low and high idle speeds a simple pnuematic ram ot an electric solenoid with a dampner (if you want to get fancy) or a pilot fed hydraulic ram.... (tie it to pressure so that as the pressure drops off spring pressure ramps the pedal position.

[DazzaTD5]

Just some added info...
We have a hydraulic pump fitted to the transfer case on our TD5 Defender that drives a hydraulic driven Kevrek crane (as the electric any brand cranes are next to useless). We also have it driving the front hydraulic winch. Both units using on engine idle are HUGE torque and we recently well overloading the crane so much that it bent the mounting on the tray rather than damage the crane or pull the engine revs down.

But still im looking at a "hand throttle" at the crane controls, my thought is to use the same type of electronic pot used on the accelerator pedal, wire it in parallel. Most likely put in a relay to switch between "cab throttle" and "crane throttle" which may well remove any issues of the computer getting odd signals etc etc.

The other mods I am thinking are a gearbox cooler with a fan (you are stationary), transfer case larger plate (the Ashcroft one) to increase capacity and the splash feed plate for the gearbox output shaft (even though later transfer boxes had the cross drills to allow lubrication), no I havent looked to see if it will fit the later boxes but I cant see why it wont etc etc.

The PTO option is still a very cool thing on a Defender...

Regards
Daz

[wayne]

I called MR automotive today and they said it would cost around $400.00 for a Defender second hand accelarator pedal. I hadn't thought to ask about a Discovery accelarator pedal. They might be cheaper as they are more common.
I really was not expecting the Defender accelarator to cost so much.

[DazzaTD5]

They have got cheaper than that...

I thought from memory new D2 (TD5) ones were round $500 and new Defender (TD5) were round $250, dont quote me on that price but Im sure its ballpark figures.

At one point they were hell expensive and at the time I had contact the manufacturer of the electronic pot attached to the complete assembly, they were happy to sell too me at (again from memory) $30 per unit at 2000 units per order.

Regards
Daz

[wrinklearthur]

Find the resistance of your accelerator pedal and buy one one these from Jaycar for about $2.25.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
.

[DazzaTD5]

Find the resistance of your accelerator pedal and buy one one these from Jaycar for about $2.25.

http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_4881.jpg
.

Yep yep thats the idea, but a double pot.

Regards
Daz

[wrinklearthur]

Yep yep thats the idea, but a double pot.

Regards
Daz

Got me curious so I'll disappear and look through my books here and find out if I can get the values. I will post them up if I find something and see if I can match the Land Rover part with something off the shelf.
.

[Grappler]

A TD5 Pedal should have a pair of pots that linearly adjust the 5 volt supplies from 0 to 5 volts.
There should be 6 or 7 pins on the connector
2 5v supplies
2 ground connections
2 variable sensor outputs 0-5 volts
and some (not all) have a chksum connector I believe
I dont have a TD5 (anymore ) to measure the pots, but Im guessing they would be zero to 3 or 4 K ohms (linear)

Theoretically you should be able to substitute a ganged pair of pots. The may be synchronised or offset, just to complicate things

Probably best to consult the wiring diagram, and the vehicle software manual Hot wiring your pedal can put you into limp mode.

[wrinklearthur]

A TD5 Pedal should have a pair of pots that linearly adjust the 5 volt supplies from 0 to 5 volts.
There should be 6 or 7 pins on the connector
2 5v supplies
2 ground connections
2 variable sensor outputs 0-5 volts
and some (not all) have a chksum connector I believe
I dont have a TD5 (anymore ) to measure the pots, but Im guessing they would be zero to 3 or 4 K ohms (linear)

Theoretically you should be able to substitute a ganged pair of pots. The may be synchronised or offset, just to complicate things ( this is important to find out)

Probably best to consult the wiring diagram, and the vehicle software manual Hot wiring your pedal can put you into limp mode.

I can add to this a little now, looking at the circuit diagram in the electrical manual for those potentiometers (pots) for a Discovery TD5, there is a link for each one of those pots, they are between the wiper and one end of the pot and these links are contained in the header in the wiring loom.

What I can't tell you yet, is the resistance value of the pots in the pedal assembly and whether or not they have a series resistance in line with their pots, I suspect there would be somewhere and could be build into the ECU.

Don't go on guess work at this stage as hooking up a wrong value could cause some expensive damage and instead keep a eye open for a good pedal assembly for a TD5 that you can get from a wrecker or someone that can measure the wiring and give you the minimum to maximum ohms readings.

When armed with those readings it could be possible to then find those same valve of pots are built into other makes of cars that also use a 'fly by wire' accelerator pedal assembly.

The TD5 Defender wreck I have in my yard has this pedal assembly missing so I was unable to to get any measurements for you from that vehicle.
.

[Grappler]

This is interesting enough to remove my Puma 2.2 pedal and make some measurements. I needed to take it off to measure up the plug guard. It needs extending to cover the Autostrada cruise control splitter (And Ive just had an ear operation and cant go surfing, so too much spare time)

I made resistance measurements between the relevent pins on the two pot circuits (see attached)

They didnt look like the simple 5 volt voltage divider I expected. Each track has a different overall resistance, but the only leg of the circuits that agree are G-F and J-K
I will get one of the brighter electronics guys at work to see if it can be replicated as an effective hand throttle.
Unless someone here can figure it out?