Towing another vehicle on an A frame

[mools]

Not too sure whether this is quite the right place to post this but any experience / info. that could be brought to bear on my question would be very much appreciated.

I was wondering about the practicalities and legalities of towing another vehicle using an A frame. Specifically towing a SWB series vehicle (1250 kg approx.) using a modern defender 110.

I occasionally see small Suzuki Jimmy's and the like being trailed behind a bus but is it possible to do similar behind a 110? The alternative is a large (ish) 4 wheel trailer which I would like to avoid as I would not need to tow often and don't want the added expense of Rego. and I don't really have the space to store one.

Thanks,

Ian.

[MR LR]

We looked into it to tag-tow the bigger veteran cars (it's easier on the wooden wheels than on the trailer).

Basically the tow car has to weigh over a certain amount if you don't have the brakes hooked up to work in the towed car... So this negated any possible use of the Disco as a tow car, (due to mechanical brakes in the veterans). I can't remember what the numbers were, but dad found the info and he's not real computer-literate. So have a search on myRTA. If you can make some way of actuating the brakes you could do it AFAIK.

Cheers
Will

EDIT: Just noticed you're in Perth, so you'll have to check with your relevant authority, I imagine the rules are much the same.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Ian

There are different rules in each state, the most rigorous in NSW. In short the "A" frame needs to be engineer approved.
The attachment of the "A" frame to the towed vehicle needs to have safety chains and be engineer approved.
The attachment of the towed combination to the towing vehicle needs to have safety chains and be engineer approved.
If the towed car and "A" frame weigh over 750Kg the combination needs to have a system to apply the brakes on the towed vehicle.
If the towed combination weighs over 2000kg the brakes need to operate on all wheels, be able to be applied by the driver of the towing vehicle and have a breakaway system that will hold the brakes on for 15 minutes should the combination come off the towing vehicle.
The towed vehicle needs to have stop, tail, blinkers and a number plate light that operate in concert to the towing vehicle.The NSW fact sheet is here: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/.../vsi_41_-_guidelines_for_a-frame_towing_nov_2007.pdf (=http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_41_-_guidelines_for_a-frame_towing_nov_2007.pdf)

[Hoges]

FWIW ...Bloke a few doors from us has a motor home and tows a Suzi Vitara (which comes from the factory with attachment points for being towed)... he uses a Blue Ox device Blue Ox | Blue Ox Towing | Towing (http://www.blueoxtow.com/) which is self aligning and has a simple wire attachment for activating the hydraulic brakes on the Suzuki... which is a Suzuki design feature.

Not sure how you'd activate the brakes on your towed vehicle.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Winnebago were marketing an A frame for towing behind their motorhomes. IIRC it was about $7,000. It used a bellows device attached to the brake pedal powered by an air compressor in the motorhome. It still required engineer certification of the two separate attachments to ensure that the A frame was compatable with the towing fittings on the towed car, manufacter fitted or not. Probably why the device was so expensive because it came with the engineer approval.

[MR LR]

Winnebago were marketing an A frame for towing behind their motorhomes. IIRC it was about $7,000. It used a bellows device attached to the brake pedal powered by an air compressor in the motorhome. It still required engineer certification of the two separate attachments to ensure that the A frame was compatable with the towing fittings on the towed car, manufacter fitted or not. Probably why the device was so expensive because it came with the engineer approval.
You can buy a good car trailer for less than that... (probably not new)

Personally I don't understand RV's, I leave my house many times a day, often needing to drive somewhere, it would suck to have to pack up my whole yard, remove foundations, and drive off looking through the dining room window...

Give me a 130 + a fifth wheeler any day, even if you want toys, just make the five'r a toy hauler... :D

That post got a bit sidetracked...

[Bigbjorn]

You see a lot of front wheel drive modern cars being towed behind a motor home in the USA on a two wheel dolly. There are two buckets that hold the front wheels of the car off the ground. These are hydraulically lowered, the car driven on and then fastened and the buckets pumped up.

[Tombie]

You can buy a good car trailer for less than that... (probably not new)

Personally I don't understand RV's, I leave my house many times a day, often needing to drive somewhere, it would suck to have to pack up my whole yard, remove foundations, and drive off looking through the dining room window...

Give me a 130 + a fifth wheeler any day, even if you want toys, just make the five'r a toy hauler... :D

That post got a bit sidetracked...

So just a question on the distracted...

Where would you mount the table in the 130?
Behind or in front of the rear axle?

(And yes, there is a reason I ask!)

[Graeme]

Where would you mount the table in the 130?
Behind or in front of the rear axle?Best to do some research before answering this question.

[Bigbjorn]

The kingpin position has to ahead of the rear axle centreline. Where depends on a number of factors. You need to determine these first before performing a simple calculation. Distance ahead = weight transferred to front axle x wheelbase / total weight.

[Tombie]

Best to do some research before answering this question.

Yes... It's a semi-rigged question :)

[Tombie]

The kingpin position has to ahead of the rear axle centreline. Where depends on a number of factors. You need to determine these first before performing a simple calculation. Distance ahead = weight transferred to front axle x wheelbase / total weight.

Correct - and then you need a HC licence to operate your vehicle - by law.

Hence the number of 5th wheelers operating illegally around Australia.

If mounted behind the Axle line it's considered a trailer, in front of the centreline it's considered a combination and requires higher level licence.

[Bigbjorn]

If the kingpin is set behind the rear axle centreline it badly affects the steering and I can guarantee that you won't like the ride motion

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'm not sure how we tangented to 5th wheelers. However it is sometimes not possible to mount the fifth wheel in front of the axle. This is particularly true of dual cab 1 tonners. A fifth wheeler is still more stable than many standard coupling trailers, particularly large caravans,

[MR LR]

I'll throw a spanner in the works...
What if it's a single cab 130? :p

Will

[mools]

In an attempt to haul this back on topic.....

Is anyone actually, or recently been, towing a series SWB behind a recent (ish) 110 on an A frame?

If so how have you set it up / engineered it?
How do you feel it behaves it's self?
Is it in any way a practical solution to transporting said swb series vehicle about?

Cheers for you input,

Ian.

[101 Ron]

In the old days when with a group of 4wds and one broke down in a way it couldn't be driven under its own steam , it would be A framed.
I remember this working with jeeps, Landrovers and dodges etc.
These older vehicles had stout flat metal bumpers.
A universal A frame was strapped/ roped/chained to the bumper.
A driver remained in the towed vehicle to operate brakes and lights.( and in case of breakaway)
many moons ago it used to legal this way.
I do know the towed vehicle steers and handles well this way.
The only problem was if a short A frame is used and at different heights of bumper to tow hook the towed vehicle could climb over the A frame under hard braking if the driver in the towed vehicle was not doing his job and watching the brake lights of the vehicle doing the towing in front.

[101 Ron]

The military for years used flat A frame towing and is why a lot of old military vehicles had special eyes in the front and somes rear bumper.
The proper military A frames were designed to fit the eyes on many different vehicles from any thing from a landrover size vehicle to a tank.
The military A frames just locked into the bumper pin holes and had one arm of it set up so it could set centre and lock in position when locking on.
In all the times I have seen it done there was never any problem with the steering or following of the towed vehicle.
It is a bit weird to be in a vehicle being flat A frame towed and watching the steering wheel turn by itself around corners.
I do not think any of that would be legal now.
Anyhow if no one is in the towed vehicle normal over 750 kg and 2000 kg trailer brake rules apply.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

In an attempt to haul this back on topic.....

Is anyone actually, or recently been, towing a series SWB behind a recent (ish) 110 on an A frame?

If so how have you set it up / engineered it?
How do you feel it behaves it's self?
Is it in any way a practical solution to transporting said swb series vehicle about?

Cheers for you input,

Ian.No but I have in a 100" RRc and I found that the long travel coils made the rear of the rangie feel unstable and the tow feel like it was steering the towing vehicle at times. I did feel that it could get out of control real easy, so I would prefer to tow on a car float.

Remember you should be removng the rear prop saft for long tows which just adds an extra level of complexity.

[Larry]

In an attempt to haul this back on topic.....

Is anyone actually, or recently been, towing a series SWB behind a recent (ish) 110 on an A frame?

If so how have you set it up / engineered it?
How do you feel it behaves it's self?
Is it in any way a practical solution to transporting said swb series vehicle about?

Cheers for you input,

Ian.

I have an A frame that was made many years ago that I used on several occasions to tow my 80" behind my then Td5 110. Although braking was only by the 110, it handled very well. All was well until a couple of years ago I came across a joint police/RTA roadside check one night. Even though I had additional safety measures in place, the lack of brakes & engineering meant that I could no longer use it on road.
The cost involved in modifications & engineering to meet the requirements, I would spend on a car trailer that can be used for other vehicles & uses as well.

[101 Ron]

This has got me thinking.
Is it still legal to tow another vehicle with a piece of rope ? and a steers/brakes man in the towed vehicle of course.

[87County]

This has got me thinking.
Is it still legal to tow another vehicle with a piece of rope ? and a steers/brakes man in the towed vehicle of course.

take a look at NSW Legislation (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewtop/inforce/subordleg+179+2008+fn+0+N)


(e) if the 2 vehicles are joined by means of a rope, chain or wire—there is displayed between the vehicles a red flag or other suitable object so as to be clearly visible as a warning of danger,

(f) an illuminated light is attached at night to that portion of the towed vehicle that faces any following vehicle (in the centre of that portion or to the right-hand or off side of the centre) and shows a clear red light so that it will be distinctly visible to the driver of any following vehicle and, if the 2 vehicles are joined by means of a rope, chain or wire, a bright white light is projected by a light or lights attached to the towed vehicle so that it will render clearly visible any flag or other object displayed in accordance with paragraph (e),

(g) if the towed vehicle is not constructed to be propelled by mechanical means—it is fastened with the shafts or pole of it in actual contact with the towing vehicle.


Also read secs 294-1 294-2



There is also seems to be a commonly-held belief that only solid connector bar is now legal - I would appreciate it, if this is the case, if someone could post a link to the relevent regulation/section.



but I think the overall the move will be to disallow this in time - & make you get a tow truck or tilt tray

unless you're a nomad towing a suzuk behind your winnebago