Wow.. Another suspension question.

[Aaron]

Ive come to accept that the whole building my puma up to be a tourer isn't really plausible. With my employment position, holidays are unlikely (re - control freak)

Which basically relegates my 110 to mainly road based work. Carrying little to no extra weight apart from 12000pound winch (with rope) and arb bar. (I guess Ill ad a rear wheel carrier later)

So Im left asking myself. Why put myself through the rough (It isnt that bad!) ride. When I don't have to?

The previous owner "solmaniac" has always looked after his Defender and did very little offroad work in it, this one included, so it is in Immaculate condition still, Thus there isn't a warn suspension component that I can see on it.

Im after a very comfortable ride, but I don't want a boat by any means. I always expect it to be a bit harsh, just not as harsh as it is in standard form. I intend to keep the sway bars, will this still control the body roll with softer springs?

Ive just started discussion with MR Automotive, and they have told me they are using Terrafirma gear a fair bit. "We are using Terrafirma shocks and have for a while and they are performing well

When it does go off road I do prefer the more high speed type stuff rather than the rock hopping and seeking out mud holes etc.

Would progressive rate springs make things too complicated?

Ive got a bit of front end sag now due to the winch/front bad, and I was a little worried about the propshaft angle when I level it out.


"the prop angle should not be a problem if the rear is still std height"

Just keep in mind I am pretty clueless when it comes to suspension.

Any help would be great.

[Aaron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/255.jpg

Nice and clean for after 100k km :)

[isuzurover]

The most comfortable ride would be to fit air springs. Kits are available from Airbagman and others.

[Benny_IIA]

The most comfortable ride would be to fit air springs. Kits are available from Airbagman and others.

x2.


But I think one of the best options for std height defender with a winch is LR HD fronts and std rear springs with a decent set of shocks. I would use bilstien or Koni. They can be sourced from the usa for a very good price and I beleive them to be a supireor product over terrafirma

[moretonisle]

I wouldn't use Terra Firma shocks. MR fitted them and King Springs +2" to my Discovery 2.
After a trip to the Cape and some others with lots of dirt roads I was going to sell the car. The ride on corrugations was terrible.
Terra Firmas info says that their shocks are designed for "fully loaded expedition Landrovers".
I travel alone with minimal camping gear.
I have after 10,000 ks of a far too firm ride on dirt roads and even bitumen, gone to Old Man Emu Nitrocharger on the rear and Ironman on the front.
It now rides like a Discovery should - comfortable and quiet.

[Aaron]

The most comfortable ride would be to fit air springs. Kits are available from Airbagman and others.

I do like the sounds of this, and always have. Taking into a count the cost of parts/compressors and install costs its always stopped me looking into it too far. Can you have a guess at what the cost of this set up would be?


x2.


But I think one of the best options for std height defender with a winch is LR HD fronts and std rear springs with a decent set of shocks. I would use bilstien or Koni. They can be sourced from the usa for a very good price and I beleive them to be a supireor product over terrafirma

I put HD Fronts on my first Defender, and it did the trick of leveling it perfectly. Knowing that Bilstien reportedly give a firmer ride + leaving the original rear springs in, I think I will be back at square one - Rough (or rougher) ride.


I wouldn't use Terra Firma shocks. MR fitted them and King Springs +2" to my Discovery 2.
After a trip to the Cape and some others with lots of dirt roads I was going to sell the car. The ride on corrugations was terrible.
Terra Firmas info says that their shocks are designed for "fully loaded expedition Landrovers".
I travel alone with minimal camping gear.
I have after 10,000 ks of a far too firm ride on dirt roads and even bitumen, gone to Old Man Emu Nitrocharger on the rear and Ironman on the front.
It now rides like a Discovery should - comfortable and quiet.

Ill voice this concern with them over the phone. I was quite clear in my Email about my objective of making my ride softer and that I carry little to know weight in the car. Do you know what Range of shocks they gave you?

Thanks for the advice guys. Appreciate it!

[Bush65]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/255.jpg

From the pic, your front springs are obviously progressive rate.

In case you aren't aware:

Progressive springs have some coils with a closely wound pitch and the other coils wound on a greater pitch. These are designed so that at normal ride height all of the coils are 'active' (able to contribute to spring deflection). When the spring compresses a certain amount, the close wound coils touch each other and they become non active, and only the coils at the greater pitch remain active.

Spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of active coils. So at ride height there are a large number of active coils and the spring rate is the lower value (comfortable ride). As a bump compresses the spring so the close coils become solid, the spring rate becomes the higher value, so absorbing more energy from the bump before the axle hits the rubber bump stops.

Compared to linear rate springs, progressives usually lower rate during the first stage and higher rate in the second stage.

Looking at this pic, the static load on the front springs is too high for these particular progressive rate springs. The closer wound coils are solid at ride height and so your spring rate is the higher value at normal ride height.

You effectively have the equivalent to a shorter linear rate spring with a high spring rate.

From memory, which needs to be verified, you might look at using the standard progressive rate coils from the rear of a Defender 90, for the front of your 110.

The rear springs are another issue, and for your use (rarely carrying a load) you can fit longer springs with a lower spring rate. However I support the air spring suggestion from Isuzurover as your best option.

With shockies, I also support the comments by the other posters, regarding Koni vs TF

[Dougal]

The most comfortable ride would be to fit air springs. Kits are available from Airbagman and others.

Just comparing a steel coiled rangie to an EAS rangie. The EAS appears better at taking out ripples, but the steel coils do far better in the mid-stroke.

However, I put this down to the limited air volume of the comparatively short length factory EAS bags. Longer bags would be less progressive and give a far better mid-stroke.
I hope to try some one-day.

Optimising a steel coil setup will be the cheapest way out and give a very good result. You need to start by weighing each end of the vehicle. The weight is the starting point to choosing spring-rates, then spring lengths for ride height.

[isuzurover]

I do like the sounds of this, and always have. Taking into a count the cost of parts/compressors and install costs its always stopped me looking into it too far. Can you have a guess at what the cost of this set up would be?

That largely depends on what you buy and who does the work. My total cost was ~$300/axle (I have only done the rear axle) - which was basically the cost of the springs alone from truckspring in the US (I fabricated my own brackets, etc...).
A complete kit from one of the suppliers will of course be a lot more. However, most of the cost is in the control system, so you can save a lot of money by opting for a system where you manually set the height of each corner - to be legal you must not be able to adjust it while driving.



Just comparing a steel coiled rangie to an EAS rangie. The EAS appears better at taking out ripples, but the steel coils do far better in the mid-stroke.

However, I put this down to the limited air volume of the comparatively short length factory EAS bags. Longer bags would be less progressive and give a far better mid-stroke.
I hope to try some one-day.

Optimising a steel coil setup will be the cheapest way out and give a very good result. You need to start by weighing each end of the vehicle. The weight is the starting point to choosing spring-rates, then spring lengths for ride height.

I am much more impressed by the firestone air springs than the LR items. As you say this is probably related to volume, but also possibly piston shape.

[Aaron]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/255.jpg

From the pic, your front springs are obviously progressive rate.

In case you aren't aware:

Progressive springs have some coils with a closely wound pitch and the other coils wound on a greater pitch. These are designed so that at normal ride height all of the coils are 'active' (able to contribute to spring deflection). When the spring compresses a certain amount, the close wound coils touch each other and they become non active, and only the coils at the greater pitch remain active.

Spring rate is inversely proportional to the number of active coils. So at ride height there are a large number of active coils and the spring rate is the lower value (comfortable ride). As a bump compresses the spring so the close coils become solid, the spring rate becomes the higher value, so absorbing more energy from the bump before the axle hits the rubber bump stops.

Compared to linear rate springs, progressives usually lower rate during the first stage and higher rate in the second stage.

Looking at this pic, the static load on the front springs is too high for these particular progressive rate springs. The closer wound coils are solid at ride height and so your spring rate is the higher value at normal ride height.

You effectively have the equivalent to a shorter linear rate spring with a high spring rate.

From memory, which needs to be verified, you might look at using the standard progressive rate coils from the rear of a Defender 90, for the front of your 110.

The rear springs are another issue, and for your use (rarely carrying a load) you can fit longer springs with a lower spring rate. However I support the air spring suggestion from Isuzurover as your best option.

With shockies, I also support the comments by the other posters, regarding Koni vs TF

Thanks for that info. Just keep in mind that the car was jacked by the excel housing. They are the ones that came standard.

Are you saying you prefer Koni over Terefirma? I am after quality (And Im prepared to pay more - to an extent) But with my limited knowledge of suspension Im not sure how to pick the shock for my purpose.


Just comparing a steel coiled rangie to an EAS rangie. The EAS appears better at taking out ripples, but the steel coils do far better in the mid-stroke.

However, I put this down to the limited air volume of the comparatively short length factory EAS bags. Longer bags would be less progressive and give a far better mid-stroke.
I hope to try some one-day.

Optimising a steel coil setup will be the cheapest way out and give a very good result. You need to start by weighing each end of the vehicle. The weight is the starting point to choosing spring-rates, then spring lengths for ride height.

Do standard weigh bridges let you weigh your car front and back? Not just the whole car?


What determines how harsh the car rides... The springs, or the shocks? Driving around town it feels like there is no up or down movement in the car.. Just bumps like it just hops over bumps. Ideal Id like it to hit a bump and for it to glide over it. IE - slowly bounce down and slowly come back up.

When I do take it off road, it just isn't enjoyable. Its like driving a go-kart.


Does any of that even make sense ? :P

I have played with tyre pressures. Starting at 30psi all round and all the way up to 40psi. 30psi dose feel a lot better, but that's purely on a comfort level. It doesn't provide the level of control Im after however. I want the suspension to do what its meant to do, not the level of air in my tyres.

How much of a hassle/cost is custom valving shocks?
And how important is getting the car weighed?

[frantic]

If you do a search on here there are threads on valving billies(bilstein) for defenders, ones like the 7100 short body or the yellow ones and some recommendations on where to get them in the U.S as cheaper. They will tell you rates and lengths etc. Other options are OME, but they only have original length, but you can do other suspension setups that use different shocks again. I've done a gwyn lewis kit with 12 in travel OME(ARB) shocks that where originally for the front of a 4 in lifted patrol, N73L code from memory. I currently have dobinson +2in coils but may get a stronger rear coil in the future as its started to sag a bit, the rear seats,kids stuff and a trailer+ family etc.

[Aaron]

Ive always liked the idea of buying a ready to go kit. All the components are matched ready to go. The problem is finding one that is for standard height and not 2inch plus

[Leyland1980]

From recent experience I would not choose Terrafirma as quality control seems to be an issue. Two friends have had them fail within a pretty short time/ km of them being fitted.

[Aaron]

Through heavy use or day to day use?

[Leyland1980]

Ones steering damper within a week on city roads and a front shock after about 4500 kms of tar and about 500 kms of gravel roads ( some corrugations), my Brit parts did a lot better!

[Dougal]

Do standard weigh bridges let you weigh your car front and back? Not just the whole car?

Yes, just drive front on, get a weight, drive completely on, get a weight and check by leaving just the back on.
I find the guys at local tips are very helpful if you explain why.



What determines how harsh the car rides... The springs, or the shocks? Driving around town it feels like there is no up or down movement in the car.. Just bumps like it just hops over bumps. Ideal Id like it to hit a bump and for it to glide over it. IE - slowly bounce down and slowly come back up.

Both do. But to get it right you start with the springs, then the shocks. The spring rates are chosen by the weight they support to give a certain natural frequency. If you unbolt the shocks and bounce the car that's the frequency it will bounce up and down at.
It's not too difficult to calculate and a frequency of around or just over 1hz (1 cycle per second) is about right for comfort and normal driving. Stiffer springs give faster frequency and a more jiggly and harsh ride. Softer springs give lower frequencies and a more wallowing ride.

From there the shock valving is used to both absorb excess bump energy (high speed compression damping), control unloaded spring return (high speed rebound damping) and control body movements (low speed compression and rebound).

Too much damping will also feel harsh, but it's a different feel to springs that are too firm.

You need to get the car weighed to confirm spring rates and heights. Otherwise it can become an expensive game of swap-a-spring.

If you are within normal spring and weight limits then a set of koni's would work very well. Koni's generally have adjustable rebound to cate for a range of driving styles, spring rates and terrain. Once you dial them in, you can literally forget about them.

[Aaron]

Thanks for that advice. I might look into the Knoni Heavy Tracks then.

[modman]

Koni raids seem to be the best all rounder especially at standard height
Some wise words from John and Dougal as well
Maybe confirm there aren't any hard urethane bushes used throughout the suspension system, most people are happy with oem rubber or superpro
You may also want to try disco 2 front turret securing rings, they have a rubber insert and can reduce NVH
Ive always wanted to try a rubber ring in between the rear spring and chassis to see if this decreases NVH as well
I run around with front tyre pressures of 36 but that's on 255s witch have a very high profile.
Dc