Tube or tubeless

[philandmickey]

Hi
Woke up this morning to a flat tyre on my 96 130 have just had 4 new BFG's fitted so a bit disappointed.

Pumped up tyre all seems fine, we did carry a fair bit of weight yesterday about 1.2 tonnes.
My concerne is someone said I should have tubes as the wheels are riveted?

Just wondered what people's thoughts are?

Cheers
Phil

[numpty]

If they are standard 130 rims they should have tubes fitted. All series wheels, early RR steels and all 110 and defender standard steel rims are tube type.

You will get various opinions but that's the facts ;)

[BigBlackDog]

The tyre shop never told me, but if you put tubes with a tubeless tyre they are not always friends. The old bf mud terrains I had were quite rough internally, and would rub through the tube over time. Got sick of that and ended up getting tubeless rims with my new tyres. Not sure if the new bfgs are any better though

[The ho har's]

the rim will be marked tubed

HO HAR

[rover-56]

I have seen early 130 rims that were rivetted, I would use tubes on those.
Later rims (the ones with the ventilation holes) are welded, I would have no problem using tubeless on those.

Other issue is rim bead to hold the tyre on after a blowout. People have told me plain rims (no bead) should have tubes. Personally I have no opinion on that.

Terry

[goanna_shire]

Hi Guys,

130 rims need tubes if there is no 'safety bead'. For example the disco series 1 rims have a 'safety bead' and I am running Disco rims for that reason. I have not seen any 130 standard rims with the safety bead on them. I was running tubes on standard 110 rims and they drove me crazy rubbing through all the time. Also they don't like low pressures. Your insurance company can get you for not running tubes in a rim without 'safety beads'.
No bead = tubes
'safety bead rims' = No tubes.

Cheers,
Brian

[philandmickey]

Well now I'm a little embarrassed as the rims do have tubes!
The flat had a scuffed area on it.

Only one of the tyres has the valve neatly sitting in the valve hole of the rim the rest are poking out at an angle.

I got out my tyre plier kit out removed the tyre (easyer said than done!) and patched the tube.

That valve is sitting neatly in its hole now.

So now my question is would the tubes have moved with a fair bit of weight in the back, the pressures were at 40psi?

I've uped them to 60 at the back while I'm putting a bit of weight in it.
Cheers
Phil

[ajge]

The tyre shop never told me, but if you put tubes with a tubeless tyre they are not always friends. The old bf mud terrains I had were quite rough internally, and would rub through the tube over time. Got sick of that and ended up getting tubeless rims with my new tyres. Not sure if the new bfgs are any better though

Hello,

Exactly what I did. The tyre shop would not fit the BFG to the tubed rim without a tube. As they got a flat I would go to another tyre shop and get them to mount it tubeless. Eventually got sick and tired of flats all the time, so i purchased 5 steel rims about $80 each. Haven't had a flat since.
regards
Andrew

[jimr1]

Hi phil , please be carful of repair patches on tubes they can fail when tyers get hot without warning , you don't want this at high speed . jimr1.

[Dougal]

The tyre shop never told me, but if you put tubes with a tubeless tyre they are not always friends. The old bf mud terrains I had were quite rough internally, and would rub through the tube over time. Got sick of that and ended up getting tubeless rims with my new tyres. Not sure if the new bfgs are any better though

My RRC alloy wheels are tubed type. They have no second lip for bead retention and the valve hole is bigger than a tubeless valve stem will fit. So needless to say it has run tubes forever.

That includes two sets of BFG A/T run from new to no-longer-legal. In all that time I had two tubes perish and fail, those tubes were very old.

I now run Wrangler duratracs on those same rims with tubes.

Summary: Tyre shop is making stuff up. Tubes work fine and should always be used on rims without the bead retaining hump.

[philandmickey]

Hi
Decided to bite the bullet and buy 4 wolf rims from TRS they seemed expensive @$165 each but I guess that's life!

I feel really the tyre shop should not have put tubes in a tubeless tyre without at least warning me of the pit falls?

So may have a chat with them regarding the swap over cost?

Cheers

Phil

[Dougal]

Well now I'm a little embarrassed as the rims do have tubes!
The flat had a scuffed area on it.

Only one of the tyres has the valve neatly sitting in the valve hole of the rim the rest are poking out at an angle.

I got out my tyre plier kit out removed the tyre (easyer said than done!) and patched the tube.

That valve is sitting neatly in its hole now.

So now my question is would the tubes have moved with a fair bit of weight in the back, the pressures were at 40psi?

I've uped them to 60 at the back while I'm putting a bit of weight in it.
Cheers
Phil

It sounds to me like fitting error. They didn't pump the tubes up, then let them down to relax before pumping them back up to full pressure. You can end up with a tube folded, twisted or just not sitting straight (evidenced by the valves not being in the holes straight) if you try to inflate them in one hit.

I have never had a tube creep at 30-40psi.

[BigBlackDog]

My RRC alloy wheels are tubed type. They have no second lip for bead retention and the valve hole is bigger than a tubeless valve stem will fit. So needless to say it has run tubes forever.

That includes two sets of BFG A/T run from new to no-longer-legal. In all that time I had two tubes perish and fail, those tubes were very old.

I now run Wrangler duratracs on those same rims with tubes.

Summary: Tyre shop is making stuff up. Tubes work fine and should always be used on rims without the bead retaining hump.

Hi Dougal,

I wasn't suggesting running tubeless on rims that need tubes at all. I had a set of older BF mud terrains and he inner surface on them was really abrasive. They were also getting old so had a few small internal cracks and these would rub on the tube making all the air fall out. I got 2 flats in a week like this. Other tubeless tyres I've seen have really smooth internal lining and work fine with tubes.

If you had ATs on tubes they must be smoother inside than the old muds I had. When I did go tubeless with new tyres I got new tubeless rims to stay safe and legal.

[Dougal]

Hi Dougal,

I wasn't suggesting running tubeless on rims that need tubes at all. I had a set of older BF mud terrains and he inner surface on them was really abrasive. They were also getting old so had a few small internal cracks and these would rub on the tube making all the air fall out. I got 2 flats in a week like this. Other tubeless tyres I've seen have really smooth internal lining and work fine with tubes.

If you had ATs on tubes they must be smoother inside than the old muds I had. When I did go tubeless with new tyres I got new tubeless rims to stay safe and legal.

A few weeks ago I could have photographed the inside of the AT's for you, but now they're all on rims again.
They aren't smooth at all. The inside is a series of ribs repeating every 5mm or so.
If you are concerned, they make tube protectors to go inside light truck rims between the tyres and the tubes.

The only punctures I received with the tubed A/T's were the tubes perishing and literally coming apart at the seams from age. But I don't run low pressure, lowest would be 30psi and normally 40psi.

I know tubes on low pressure (unde 10psi) ATV wheels just don't work. They keep moving round and either chafe to pieces or rip the valve stem out. Did you air down much?

[Don 130]

130 rims are supplied either tubed or tubeless. There are two types, two different part numbers. Which do you have?

Tubed (Part no. ANR5593) and Tubeless (Part no. ANR4583) - See more at: Wolf wheels | Land Rover Expedition (http://www.landroverexpedition.com/equipment/wolf-wheels/#sthash.Ab5iagaq.dpuf)

[303gunner]

It sounds to me like fitting error. They didn't pump the tubes up, then let them down to relax before pumping them back up to full pressure. You can end up with a tube folded, twisted or just not sitting straight (evidenced by the valves not being in the holes straight) if you try to inflate them in one hit.
I remember many "Old School" tyre fitters dusted the tube with chalk or talc before installing, but it does not seem to be done much these days. Is the chalk/talc a good idea or a bad idea?

[philandmickey]

Back to the drawing board, got the wheels home and they are tubed, despite my carefully explaining I wanted tubeless!

They have tubeless steel wheels off a 2013 year car, but want $300 each! Unless I'm being unrealistic that seems a ridiculous amount.

So now where to? I guess I'll explore after market wheels and see what they cost.
Anyone have any recommendations?
Phil

[n plus one]

Back to the drawing board, got the wheels home and they are tubed, despite my carefully explaining I wanted tubeless!

They have tubeless steel wheels off a 2013 year car, but want $300 each! Unless I'm being unrealistic that seems a ridiculous amount.

So now where to? I guess I'll explore after market wheels and see what they cost.
Anyone have any recommendations?
Phil

I thought your earlier price for Wolfs was a bit low!

If your going to pay $300 for tubeless Wolfs, I'd pay a little more and get good quality aftermarket alloys or I'd pay a lot less and get aftermarket steelies.

[Dougal]

So now where to? I guess I'll explore after market wheels and see what they cost.
Anyone have any recommendations?
Phil

Put tubes in properly and drive the bloody thing.

[87County]

Put tubes in properly and drive the bloody thing.

or not - I've never had a problem with tubeless tyres fitted to standard defender rims

on the other hand I have had problems with tube abrasion if tubes were fitted to tyres on those rims

[87County]

Put tubes in properly and drive the bloody thing.

or not - I've never had a problem with tubeless tyres fitted to standard defender or series rims

on the other hand I have had problems with tube abrasion if tubes were fitted to tyres on those rims

[Dougal]

or not - I've never had a problem with tubeless tyres fitted to standard defender or series rims

on the other hand I have had problems with tube abrasion if tubes were fitted to tyres on those rims

You did see the "properly" part?

You only get tube abrasion if there is a foreign object in the tyre or the tube is pinched/folded.
Everything points to the OP's tube being folded/pinched on installation.

Got pics of your tube damage?

[philandmickey]

Sorry no photos
But the mark was about 15mm wide 30 mm long a bit like a scuff with a few holes.

After ringing round I have found new HD steels suitable for a 130 for $114 delivered, From LR Automotive (got the details from another post here).

So that's the way I'm going, I know "just drive the thing" seems the go, I'm just trying to make the car as reliable as possible and eliminate as many problems as possible, after lots of searching on here there seems to be as many people for as against tubes/tubeless so decided to go with what I feel comfortable with.

Of course with the current oil leak (See other thread) the car is doing it's up most to save the tyre issue being a concern.

Cheers
Phil

[87County]

You did see the "properly" part?

You only get tube abrasion if there is a foreign object in the tyre or the tube is pinched/folded.
Everything points to the OP's tube being folded/pinched on installation.

Got pics of your tube damage?

sorry Dougal - didn't keep 'em - happened years ago

I do understand that current thinking is that it is not "best practice" to fit tubeless to non-safety rims but I've never had a problem with LR rims

now I mostly use D1 rims

[Jeff]

You did see the "properly" part?

You only get tube abrasion if there is a foreign object in the tyre or the tube is pinched/folded.
Everything points to the OP's tube being folded/pinched on installation.


I have had tubes wear through because of the rough surface on the inside of the tyre, both with Michelins and Coopers, and generally the tubes only last half the life of the tyre.

Jeff

:rocket:

[rover-56]

I do understand that current thinking is that it is not "best practice" to fit tubeless to non-safety rims but I've never had a problem with LR rims

now I mostly use D1 rims

No-one has ever given me a plausible reason why tubeless tyres need a safety rim, while tubed tyres do not???

Any offers?

Terry

[Dougal]

No-one has ever given me a plausible reason why tubeless tyres need a safety rim, while tubed tyres do not???

Any offers?

Terry

Simple.
A tubed tyre rim has the bead on an taper angle of about 5 degrees towards the inside of the rim. It doesn't take that much force to push the bead far enough in to break the seal.
This isn't a problem on a tubed wheel because it doesn't lose all it's air when the seal is broken.

In a situation like the one below, you can see how far the outer tyre is distorted.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/1190.jpg

With the second hump locking the bead in place it's pretty secure. But without there is very little stopping the tyre dumping the air and digging the rim into the road. Especially if (like 98% of the population) the tyre is soft because you haven't checked the pressure ever.

[spudboy]

Hi
Decided to bite the bullet and buy 4 wolf rims from TRS they seemed expensive @$165 each but I guess that's life!

I feel really the tyre shop should not have put tubes in a tubeless tyre without at least warning me of the pit falls?

So may have a chat with them regarding the swap over cost?

Cheers

Phil

$165 a rim is a good price. I paid $220 each for mine, but they were brand new (black) tubeless ones. Had to spray them white myself, but that only took an hour or two.

[goanna_shire]

Tube rims without safety bead result in rapid deflation when cornering with low tyre pressure as apposed to safety beads which take a lot more effort to dislodge. Theyre just there to try to stop accidents.

Cheers,
Brian

[rover-56]

OK both those answers make sense.
I am not saying safety rims are not better, but the tyre rolling off the rim at high cornering speeds and with silly low pressures are a bit at the extreme end of things. OK I know it can happen.

But in real life on a Land Rover tyre probably unlikely to happen. Well I have been running tubeless tyres on std LR rims for years and not had a roll off yet, even at low bush track pressures.

Sure, I know what the insurance assessor will say.....

Thanks for the answers:)

Terry

[Dougal]

I interited some wheels which were the old rangie steels with tyres fitted up tubeless.

They were a major PITA. Because they weren't used often the pressures would drop and then they would unseat themselves.
I still have those wheels (now fitted with bald BFG A/T's) fitted up tubeless, but only for storage reasons. The tyres aren't road-legal.

[Graeme]

Back in my amateur rallying days when rims didn't have safety beads, no-one ran tubeless because the tyres were always being pushed off the rim enough to get dirt and other rubbish between the tyre and rim. Tubeless would have gone flat immediately and likely to cause a roll-over, not that roll-overs didn't occur for other reasons such as turning sharply regardless of speed or sipping coffee at the wrong time.

[philandmickey]

Well its about a hundred years later but a follow up to my tubed tyre isues.

The local tyre place that fitted the BFG's originaly, came to the party and
supplied Dynamic wheels and fitted the tyres for $115 per corner.

7000km's later and all seems good, although fingers are still crossed.

Cheers
Phil