4bd1 to 4bd1t

[obelixxx01]

Turbo please. I am lucky enough to currently have the option of either fitting a turbo to my existing 4bd1 (89 perentie) or completely changing out the engine for a 4bd1t from an Isuzu truck (92 model).
Does anyone have any thoughts on the pros/cons of either path please?

[goanna_shire]

HI,
I would go the truck turbo engine if price isn't a problem. Turboing your curent engine will be cheaper and less hassle fitting of the bellhousing to gearbox etc. What type of turbo conversion are you after? A full blown fire breathing dragon or simply a couple extra ponies and forget the intercooler type conversion? There's so many ways to go. The search engine on this site is your friend as many many isuzu's have been treated to various different turbo systems and all bring a big smile on the owners dial:D.

Cheers,
Brian.

[mudmouse]

Also ask yourself 'what do you want it to do' - the vehicle that is..?

There's a fair expense in fitting a turbo, so with your answer to the (above) question, is it worth it.

I'm not trying be all Zen, but you may find tipping in 50% of the vehicle value in modifications will never be recovered, nor realised as an advantage. Assuming a 4BD1T engine is around 6k.


Matt.

[obelixxx01]

Thanks for the thoughts. The truck is a keeper so not worried about resale. Always liked something a bit different and haven't seen any ex mil with the turbo conversion. Has anyone driven both with and without? Always liking for more ponies but don't expect to be doing any wheel stands anytime soon either.

[Offender90]

Turbocharged 4BD1s have stood the test of time in Land Rovers, with some lasting for as long as 500,000 kms between rebuilds. "Light duty" industrial diesels such as the 4BD1 have been seriously over-engineered & take the occasional abuse we may put them through very well.

That said, the main differences between an 89 4BD1 and a 91 4BD1T engines (as far as I recall) are the turbo block comes with:

1.) Case hardened crankshaft to improve wear & reduce friction. The case hardening process (nitriding / also known by its trade name Tufftriding) creates a very thin layer of super hard steel. The crankshaft is known to last several rebuilds, but also means it can't be machined in the unlikely event of scoring.
2.) Oil squirters fitted under pistons for better cooling / lubrication
3.) High flow oil pump (to feed oil squirters and turbo)
4.) Twin oil filter setup potentially allowing for longer intervals between oil changes (many N/A trucks came with this as well)
5.) Potentially a boost compensated fuel pump that allows reduced off boost fuelling
6.) Turbo oil drain integrated into the casting, although some late 4BD1s reportedly have the same provision



Early on in the production, only the 4BD1Ts came with alfin pistons fitted, but after 88 I think, Isuzu started fitting them to naturally aspirated engines as well. BTW, "alfin" stands for Aluminium Ferrous INsert (I think), so aluminium piston with cast iron inserts around piston ring grooves for better wear characteristics, Your 89 4BD1 would likely already be fitted with them.

If it's worth it I think depends on your preferences. Oil squirters allow slightly higher "safe" EGTs, meaning you can tune the engine to run a slightly richer mixture under max power conditions, but that's only if you're wanting to really push the limits.

Oil squirters (brass tubes pointing to the underside of the piston) look like this BTW:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/10/1046.jpg

HTH

Bojan

[flagg]

I think there is also a difference in the IP, or at least the tuning of the IP as several on the site (myself included) who have turbo'd their NA engines find a surge / stutter at around 2700. The more you turn out your fuel screw the more noticeable it is.

There is no need to fit a factory turbo engine unless you are going for all out performance, but if you have one laying around I'd use it to get around the stutter / surge.

[flagg]

Thanks for the thoughts. The truck is a keeper so not worried about resale. Always liked something a bit different and haven't seen any ex mil with the turbo conversion. Has anyone driven both with and without? Always liking for more ponies but don't expect to be doing any wheel stands anytime soon either.

Mine is a civvy 110, but I drove it for a few years without a turbo before fitting it. Night and Day.

[obelixxx01]

Thanks guys for all the info. Seems I have some thinking to do. One more question though. I am of the assumption that to so an engine change over would be a bolt out bolt in event? Does anyone know of any possible kids/adapters that may be required?

[rijidij]

Thanks guys for all the info. Seems I have some thinking to do. One more question though. I am of the assumption that to so an engine change over would be a bolt out bolt in event? Does anyone know of any possible kids/adapters that may be required?

Major things like engine mounts will swap straight from one block to the other, also flywheel housing, bell housing etc. You might come across some minor differences like the throttle linkage.

Cheers, Murray

[obelixxx01]

Major things like engine mounts will swap straight from one block to the other, also flywheel housing, bell housing etc. You might come across some minor differences like the throttle linkage.

Cheers, Murray

Thanks heaps Murray.

[Dougal]

Factory turbo engine will be much quieter due to the changes made over the years.
IMO that alone makes it worth the swap.

[obelixxx01]

Have made a decision to go with the transplant. Sounds like that has the most advantages. Seems like I picked up the motor for a song (see if it turns out that way hahaha) and the turbo add would end up being of equal cost. Truck I'm the shop with suspected broken front axel, so have decides to upgrade front and rear to Maxxis heavy duty axels to cope with the increases power trough the drive train. Can anyone suggest any other mods to drive line which may help reduce breakdowns in the future? Will probably run 33's or maybe 35's if I can make em fit.

[Vern]

For all your diff upgrades, just got to ashcrofts.:)

[Dougal]

Just making sure you know, but this goal:


Can anyone suggest any other mods to drive line which may help reduce breakdowns in the future?

Is made harder by this goal:

Will probably run 33's or maybe 35's if I can make em fit.

[zkdaz]

Hi, I have been doing a lot of reading about these engines too. This is what I have gathered so far;

The truck flywheel will not work with the LR flywheel housing and starter. If you keep the LR gearbox you will have to use your existing flywheel which is not as heavy as the turbo one. The turbo engine will have greater torque pulses each time a cylinder fires and without a heavier flywheel these will increase wear on gearboxes, etc.

Plenty of people have fitted turbos and kept the LR flywheel and gearboxes, some report no problems, others say they destroy gearboxes. My guess is this has a lot to do with other factors like boost pressure, driving style, vehicle weight and bigger tyres.

There is an option to use the truck flywheel, housings and 5 speed gearbox mated to a LR transfer case. Have a read of the (long) thread "Isuzu MSA Gearbox to LT230", Sheldon (the_grubb) is developing a kit to make this a bolt in conversion. There is another option that keeps the truck flywheel housing and starter with the LR gearbox, but this has clearance issues with the chassis.

As Dougal is saying, if you fit bigger tyres, you increase the stress on all of the drive line components. Looking through these forums you will find a good number of threads about upgrading gearboxes, front diffs, and half shafts. These seem to be the first things to fail when people run bigger tyres and stronger engines.

How much drive line you will need to upgrade to run 33" or 35" tyres will depend on how heavy you travel and how sympathetic a driver you are. You may get away without upgrading anything if you keep the weight under 2500kg and are the type of driver who walks it through in low range. If you are a touring type who loads to 3500kg and use a bit of momentum to carry you through a soft patch, you may want to start reading and saving.

Hope this helps, looking forward to a build thread with lots of photos (hint, hint).

Cheers

Dan

[Dougal]

My 4BD1T factory turbo truck engine flywheel is lighter than my 2.2 non turbo diesel flywheel.:(
So I don't see the turbo truck flywheel as solving any drive-train beat-down problems. I do plan on an inertia ring to help, but I need to finish the current job first.

[zkdaz]

That's interesting to know, do you mean a 2.25 litre LR diesel engine or something else?

If anyone has info on the heaviest flywheel that will fit the truck housing I would love to know.

Dan

[Dougal]

That's interesting to know, do you mean a 2.25 litre LR diesel engine or something else?

If anyone has info on the heaviest flywheel that will fit the truck housing I would love to know.

Dan

The 2.2 is completely unrelated to landrover.
There isn't much space in the bellhousing for a bigger flywheel, the industrial ones are definitely too deep. But there is enough room for some improvement.

[Dave_S]

I still have a truck flywheel, running inside a Land Rover bellhousing/flywheel cover assembly. I used a Toyota 300mm outside diameter clutch plate with a Range Rover 10 spline centre welded in. You have to be careful to position the plate centre so it clears the spigot bush housing. The pressure plate is an Isuzu truck part.

[walahbro]

Hey guys, i too have a 89 perentie 4bd1, have been looking into bolting on a turbo, besides changing the exhaust manifold and bolting the turbo on is there much more to be done.

Im not looking for extreme performance, just more power to tow with a full car load, it can get realllllly sluggish up hills even unladen.

What other parts will i require? Are they all off the shelf? How much am i up for?
Too intercool or not to? Can i buy this off the shelf?

Anyone recommend a mechanic who could do the work?

I'm not that experienced with this sort of thing, but willing to give it ago. If its all too hard though, I dont want to end up pulling it all apart and having it sit there....

Thanks


Andrew

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi, I have been doing a lot of reading about these engines too. This is what I have gathered so far;

The truck flywheel will not work with the LR flywheel housing and starter. If you keep the LR gearbox you will have to use your existing flywheel which is...
Cheers

DanIf anyone is converting a truck engine into a Land Rover, I am happy to swap the Land Rover adapter and flywheel with the ones off the truck variety.

Send me a PM.

[87County]

quoted from walahbro above :

What other parts will i require? Are they all off the shelf? How much am i up for?
Too intercool or not to? Can i buy this off the shelf?

Anyone recommend a mechanic who could do the work?

Yep - KLR at Windsor (0412 180 474 or 02 4577 5010)

They also have the p/s conv kits and will sell as parts kits.

One of my boys got one of the kits from KLR fitted to a FFR, the increase in power is substantial (no intercooler).

The custom ex manifold allows more room in engine bay for turbo fitup.

here you go ...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/820.jpg (http://s708.photobucket.com/user/87county/media/4bd1turbo_zps6c1b1d91.jpg.html)

[Judo]

Hey guys, i too have a 89 perentie 4bd1, have been looking into bolting on a turbo, besides changing the exhaust manifold and bolting the turbo on is there much more to be done.

Im not looking for extreme performance, just more power to tow with a full car load, it can get realllllly sluggish up hills even unladen.

What other parts will i require? Are they all off the shelf? How much am i up for?
Too intercool or not to? Can i buy this off the shelf?

Anyone recommend a mechanic who could do the work?

I'm not that experienced with this sort of thing, but willing to give it ago. If its all too hard though, I dont want to end up pulling it all apart and having it sit there....

Thanks


Andrew
Whereabouts in Melbourne are you?

I've almost got mine back on road with a new turbo. It's not that hard and I knew nothing about turbos a few months back. If you're willing to spend time reading and learn as you go, I don't see why you can't DIY. You need a standard set of hand tools, plus some threads taps and a drill.

Here's a few threads to get you started on turbo builds by members here. We're all willing to answer questions. :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/120695-new-tourer.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/167900-not-so-budget-turbo-install.html

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/63176-budget-4bd1-turbo-install.html

And lastly, mine, although it's not quite running yet.... ;)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/170886-judos-1986-county-110-isuzu-6.html

[walahbro]

Thanks "87 county" Would've been a great help but im in melbourne...

[walahbro]

Thanks Judo
I'm in heidelberg

I think i will give it ago....got my feet wet already today, just ordered myself the stock turbo manifold...
The flange on it what turbo is that to suit?
Is there any recommendations for which turbo to use, difference between a garrett, and say a chinese knock off? Cost differences?

Anyone got a shopping list of things im going to need?
Your help is appreciated guys!

Cheers

[Dougal]

The flange on it what turbo is that to suit?
Is there any recommendations for which turbo to use, difference between a garrett, and say a chinese knock off? Cost differences?

Anyone got a shopping list of things im going to need?
Your help is appreciated guys!

Cheers

Some light reading on turbo selection:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/169564-4bd1t-turbo-sizing-performance-prediction.html

But to summarise.
Fastest spooling turbo: Garrett GT2259.
Best overall fit: MHI TD04HL-19T or Holset HE221.
Bling option and best top-end: Borg Warner EFR6258.

The angle mount stock manifold is T3 flange. Most turbos that fit well airflow wise are T2 flange.

[walahbro]

Well from what ive read, i think i should go with the TD04HL-19T.

I've been looking on ebay, and they are all kinugawa branded.
MHI stands for mitsubishi heavy industries.

Where can i get an original turbo from, any ideas?
Im guessing reliability would and length of life i what the difference between the chinese versions right? (if i were to look at a chinese version it seems they are all setup differently in different kits on ebay?)

Not sure where to get my hands on one...

[Judo]

Well from what ive read, i think i should go with the TD04HL-19T.

I've been looking on ebay, and they are all kinugawa branded.
MHI stands for mitsubishi heavy industries.

Where can i get an original turbo from, any ideas?
Im guessing reliability would and length of life i what the difference between the chinese versions right? (if i were to look at a chinese version it seems they are all setup differently in different kits on ebay?)

Not sure where to get my hands on one...
I don't have experience with any of them running yet, but from my research I can tell you this:

Isuzu, Mitsubishi and Kinugawa are all Japanese.
To very much generalise, I don't believe Japanese quality is anything like Chinese. I rate Japanese engineering quite highly.
I couldn't find any real reviews of the super cheap Chinese turbos from ebay. Most people want to avoid them.
Limited numbers, but positive reviews of the Kinugawa turbos.
It's possible the Kinugawa turbos come from the same manufacturers as the big Japanese brands.

I purchased a Kinugawa TD04HL-19T.

[walahbro]

Thanks for Clarifying Judo!

Can i ask you where u bought it?
What listing should i be looking for?
There are variants, some say they are water cooled, some oil cooled (i know to look for oil cooled),
some say they have 9 blades other 11?

this link here has many variants
TD04HL-19T items - Get great deals on VOLVO items on eBay Stores! (http://stores.ebay.com.au/KINUGAWA-TURBO/VOLVO-/_i.html?_nkw=TD04HL-19T&submit=Search&_fsub=1523320014&_sid=719450054)

I just dont want to buy the wrong turbo setup.

This is the closest to what i think i need
Turbocharger Kinugawa TD04HL 19T T25 Flange W KIT 200 280HP FIT 1 6 2 5L | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Turbocharger-Kinugawa-TD04HL-19T-T25-Flange-w-Kit-200-280HP-Fit-1-6-2-5L-/281195198802?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41788a3952)

Also states on the listing:
This kit comes with billet adjustable actuator and 0.5bar spring will be installed. We offer 0.3bar, 0.5bar, 0.8bar, 1.0bar, 1.2bar, 1.5bar, 1.8bar and 2.0bar spring for sale on our ebay shop
Do i need a different spring?.


Can u confirm?

[Judo]

I bought from here. But I can't see the exact model. You might have to contact them.

Kinugawa turbo Online Shopping - Home (http://shopping.kinugawaturbo.com/)

But the one you want on ebay is this:

Kinugawa Turbocharger TD04HL 19T T25 Flange 6cm OIL Cooled 250 280HP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kinugawa-Turbocharger-TD04HL-19T-T25-Flange-6cm-Oil-Cooled-250-280HP-/271306380758?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f2b1ed5d6&_uhb=1)

Key specs are:
TD04HL-19T-T25.
Oil cooled only.
6cm2 turbine housing.
Internal WG.

Maybe someone else (Dougal?) can peer review this just in case my memory is not so good. ;) 99% sure this is what I bought though!

The spring depends on how much boost you be going for and what you will set the WG to open at.

1.0bar = 14.5psi

[flagg]

You will want at leaset 20psi wastegate... Less than that and you will be missing out ;)

[Albert]

But the one you want on ebay is this:

Kinugawa Turbocharger TD04HL 19T T25 Flange 6cm OIL Cooled 250 280HP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kinugawa-Turbocharger-TD04HL-19T-T25-Flange-6cm-Oil-Cooled-250-280HP-/271306380758?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f2b1ed5d6&_uhb=1)

Key specs are:
TD04HL-19T-T25.
Oil cooled only.
6cm2 turbine housing.
Internal WG.

I have ordered one like this last week exept it is the oil/water cooled model.:(
Is this going to be a problem for me or should I return it and get the oil cooled only unit?
From other posts I understand I can just not hook up any water lines to it, is this right?

[Judo]

But the one you want on ebay is this:

Kinugawa Turbocharger TD04HL 19T T25 Flange 6cm OIL Cooled 250 280HP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Kinugawa-Turbocharger-TD04HL-19T-T25-Flange-6cm-Oil-Cooled-250-280HP-/271306380758?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f2b1ed5d6&_uhb=1)

Key specs are:
TD04HL-19T-T25.
Oil cooled only.
6cm2 turbine housing.
Internal WG.

I have ordered one like this last week exept it is the oil/water cooled model.:(
Is this going to be a problem for me or should I return it and get the oil cooled only unit?
From other posts I understand I can just not hook up any water lines to it, is this right?
2 examples of members with water cooled turbos but no water connected:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/144362-water-cooled-turbo.html#post1628516

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/isuzu-landy-enthusiasts-section/181946-yet-more-turbo-questions-2.html#post1993964

Doesn't appear to be a problem.

[flagg]

I don't have the water jacket connected... But I also have no idea what im doing :-p. Word is that it is unnecessary on diesels so long as you don't shutdown with EGTs above 200 - which shouldn't be a problem.



If you do want to use the jacket, then make sure you have a bleed valve or you will get airlocks. Then again, if you want a heater that works you want a bleed valve anyway for the same reason. I made one up that attaches to the heater pipe outlet as that is the highest part of my cooling system. Works a treat.

[walahbro]

Hey guys can anyone confirm where the stock exhaust manifold held on by bolt or studs and nuts?

I just received my turbo/manifold adaptor from ebay today and eager to get cracking!

Its a cast piece so i'll get onto with the dremel, give it a good sanding and make it nice and smooth, just like i did with the turbo exhaust side and the manifold (where i could reach anyway).

Yey Its TURBO TIME!:D

[Judo]

It wasn't that long ago I removed mine and TBH I can't remember. I think it was bolts. However, you should just go for new bolts anyway. M8 is the size. Length depends on the manifold you're using.

[flagg]

When I got mine, it was both. I think there were two studs that were useful for positioning it and bolts for the rest. I replaced with all bolts.

[isuzurover]

I used Class 12.9 socket head cap screws (and washers) to hold my turbo manifold on. >150k km later and all is still fine (same goes for the water cooled turbo with no water pipes connected).

[steveG]

^^^ Same here, except mine has only done 45K kms

Steve

[Judo]

I only used 8.8 hex head bolts with washers. So far so good after 3kms. :D

[steveG]

I only used 8.8 hex head bolts with washers. So far so good after 3kms. :D

Bah!!! Get some miles up young fella :p

Steve