Smashing through someone's rear window.

[solmanic]

First of all, it wasn't me... but here is the scenario a mate went through...

Pulling up to a set of lights, there was a car in the far lefthand lane indicating to turn left. Oldmate rode up on the righthand side of the car (between the left and centre lanes) just as the lights changed to green. He coasted through the lights and started to pedal away while the car changed his mind and decided to go straight ahead - still indicating left though.

The car accellerated past the bike and my mate got a real surprise and yelled out to him that his indicator was on. I am not sure of the exact wording of the alert, but it must have been taken to be aggressive as the car then pulled past him and braked hard - deliberately. My mate was slowing down and pulling across to the left behind the car and consequently hit the back hard and was sent through the rear window.

My mate recalls the driver getting out of his car and abusing the hell out of him while he was lying in a bloody heap on the road. The passenger on the other hand was pleading for my mate not to sue them.

He was carted off to hospital but it was a classic case of the helmet saving yet another life. Mostly cuts and a lot of bruising. The police were called and interviewed him at the hospital then again at his home a few days later. Initially the police were intending to charge my mate since he hit the car from behind. When they got the full story from him however they decided not to charge anybody and he was informed that there would be no further follow up.

Today, my mate has received a letter of demand from the car owner's insurance company for replacement of the rear window. Obviously the insurance company still think it is a clear case of the vehicle behind being 100% at fault despite the police agreeing that the car driver's actions directly contributed to the accident (hence no charge). Of course the insurance company says they have not seen any police report on the incident and their letter of demand contains the usual threats of court action and massive legal expenses for non-payment. And being a bicycle, there is no 3rd party property cover so the insurance company is out for blood as they can't claim "knock for knock" with another insurer.

My mate is understandably angry about this and is now contemplating actioning a personal injury lawsuit against the driver.

How would others proceed to deal with this?

[isuzurover]

...

My mate is understandably angry about this and is now contemplating actioning a personal injury lawsuit against the driver.

...

Sounds like a good plan - especially if they are willing to take it on a "no win no fee basis" (and won't charge your make more than the settlement).

That way your mate won't be out of pocket, however the idiot in the car will get what he deserves...


Another option would be to draft up a letter of demand to the insurance for the injury costs and include a copy of the police statement.

[debruiser]

send them the bill for his $14000 bike. :)

[bee utey]

Contact your local bicycle advocacy group. I assume by your location it will be Bicycle Queensland (http://www.bq.org.au/). They will know of lawyers willing to work for a cyclist.

[Psimpson7]

Unfortunately picking an argument with a car when on a bike is foolish at best. Its all very well being right, but it doesn't get you anywhere if you are dead or a paraplegic

Do you have all the info? There are 2 sides to every story.

If its as clear cut as your post suggests why aren't the police pursuing the car driver for dangerous driving or similar?

Any independent witnesses to it?

Does he have a copy of the police officers findings/report?

Hopefully there is a fair outcome, whatever that is.

p.s. I cycle quite a lot on the road and put up with asshats on a nearly every ride basis.

[solmanic]

Unfortunately picking an argument with a car when on a bike is foolish at best. Its all very well being right, but it doesn't get you anywhere if you are dead or a paraplegic

Do you have all the info? There are 2 sides to every story.

If its as clear cut as your post suggests why aren't the police pursuing the car driver for dangerous driving or similar?

Any independent witnesses to it?

Does he have a copy of the police officers findings/report?

Hopefully there is a fair outcome, whatever that is.

p.s. I cycle quite a lot on the road and put up with asshats on a nearly every ride basis.

He is trying to get the police report. As I said, they were initially looking to charge him (the rider) and decided not to when they got his side of the story. The idea of charging the driver doesn't seem to have been considered and that kind of makes sense since he was in front and could have told the police any old story as to why he braked suddenly. I think the police backed off charging anyone when they realised it could develop into a ****fight and they couldn't conclusively prove which party was at fault - without some effort.

He believed that the driver and his passenger were more concerned about him potentially suing them and they had an agreement on the spot that he wouldn't seek compensation. It is possible that the driver isn't even aware his insurer is seeking payment from my mate.

Regardless of who the insurer thinks is at fault, if it comes to a personal injury lawsuit it would almost certainly result in an out of court settlement. It would come down to the rider's story vs the driver's story and whilst no-one can prove conclusively that the driver braked specifically so my mate would crash into the back, the injuries cannot be disputed (there are photographs). It also cannot be disputed that my mate wasn't paying attention as the driver was aware that my mate yelled at him that his indicator was on. So clearly my mate was paying attention to the car, and no-one deliberately crashes into a car and totals their bike and face in the process. So if he was clearly aware of the car, and his bike was in sound mechanical order, it can be argued that it was somethig the car did that precipitated the crash.

So while an insurer may automatically blame the vehicle behind, in this case a personal injury lawsuit would force the driver to prove he wasn't using his car as a weapon. It has the potential to flip the onus of proof onto the other party.

[rangieman]

Sorry for your mate :eek: No matter what the argument cars and bikes dont mix and should,nt mix , Bike no reg no licence :wasntme:, Some honest car drivers pay reg and have a licence ,
Dont get me wrong im not bagging bike riders , The day they separate them all should stop bitching about each other:angel:

[Slunnie]

Rego has SFA to do with it.

It was deliberate... See red and go nuts! :D

[rangieman]

Rego has SFA to do with it.

It was deliberate... See red and go nuts! :D

Not wanting to get in a slanging match :cool:cars can be made accountable and traced through rego and licence . How does one trace a bike (knock them off):eek:
Like i said i dont want to bag bike riders i just think the 2 should be separated

[weeds]

tough one.....i commute on pushy, infact i just climb off the bike......

if it were me i would have pulled up behind the car and waited for the car to move off, this eliminates all the risk.....much to my lovely wifes frustration at times i see no reason for your mate to lane split in this instance.....i hate it when motorbikes do it as i nearly knocked one over yesterday on the freeway.

when it is a turn left lane only than yes i do lane split to get to the front....if the traffic is stopped mainly because i am fairly confident the driver will not change his mind

yes you mate was in the wrong by lane splitting but i think the driveris also in the wrong for not checking around him prior to changing his mind....the problem is very few drivers actually ride therefore its a little hard for a good percentage just are not aware the knock on affect when around bikes

keep in mind i am no angle on the road.........i try as much as i can to follow the road rules but do bend them at times......i.e. most afternoons i need to go through a RED turn right arrow purley because the sensors in the road dont detect me and the bike...and in the morning i push off before the light turns green so that i clear the left turn area/lane so that traffic is not held up (i reckon the car would appreicate this, i would)

i wonder if they would detect a steel framed bike?

just my view......please update us with the outcome

[weeds]

Not wanting to get in a slanging match :cool:cars can be made accountable and traced through rego and licence . How does one trace a bike (knock them off):eek:
Like i said i dont want to bag bike riders i just think the 2 should be separated

i commute up to three times a week, on a good week i average 150km (although i have been slack of late....OKK this year). as i travel in peak hour most of the time i have very few issues with traffic, and i hope by following the road rules cars and trucks appreicate this.

sure there is the odd dickhead but they also annoy other cars and trucks as well......

to keep us seperated would cost a bomb........if only those who build new roads or upgrade existing one catered for bike riders (based on numbers) i.e bike lane than the cost would be spread over many years and progressively the road would be much safer all round.

[bee utey]

Sorry for your mate :eek: No matter what the argument cars and bikes dont mix and should,nt mix , Bike no reg no licence :wasntme:, Some honest car drivers pay reg and have a licence ,
Dont get me wrong im not bagging bike riders , The day they separate them all should stop bitching about each other:angel:

Please don't wind up this rubbish, most bike riders pay rego on the car they leave home and definitely can lose their licences for law breaking whilst on a bike. As for catching them, why, the police can use similar methods they use to catch other criminals without rego plates, like rapists, murderers, muggers, thieves etc. By using their intelligence and specifically camera evidence and public support. Cyclists are community members too. They don't exist in a vacuum.

This is a public notice to all legal road users to show courtesy and restraint on the roads. It's not a game, you know.

[mudmouse]

The difficulty for your mate will be proving it all. With an absence of an independent witness, it'll be one word against the other, and if he's arguing some form of trauma (dazed and confused) as a result of the collision, he's introducing doubt as to the veracity of his memory and therefore argument of who is at fault.

I wish him all the best, but can only suggest a Go-Pro or similar for road users who are at a greater risk than most - by that I mean harder to see, sitting on the outside of the vehicle, and sadly, viewed as 'less' than equal.

I still don't think bicycles should be used on roads simply because of what I've seen happen to them. I like my bike, but I don't think they've got a place on the road the way roads are designed, and the way most motorists drive their cars....but that's another discussion.

I hope he has a speedy recovery.

Matt.

[solmanic]

if it were me i would have pulled up behind the car and waited for the car to move off, this eliminates all the risk.....much to my lovely wifes frustration at times i see no reason for your mate to lane split in this instance.....i hate it when motorbikes do it as i nearly knocked one over yesterday on the freeway.

when it is a turn left lane only than yes i do lane split to get to the front....if the traffic is stopped mainly because i am fairly confident the driver will not change his mind

yes you mate was in the wrong by lane splitting but i think the driveris also in the wrong for not checking around him prior to changing his mind....the problem is very few drivers actually ride therefore its a little hard for a good percentage just are not aware the knock on affect when around bikes

I did think about the lane splitting argument, however the fact he was not in the lefthand lane is proof in itself that the car must have been indicating a left turn. Motorcycles may routinely lane split as they have the benefit of speed, but no bicycle lane splits unless it is to avoid another stationery or turning vehicle, in this case the one supposedly turning left - but then not. Apparently there were also cars parked further up in the left lane which made it even less predictable that the car indicating to turn left would in fact go straight on.

[solmanic]

The difficulty for your mate will be proving it all. With an absence of an independent witness, it'll be one word against the other, and if he's arguing some form of trauma (dazed and confused) as a result of the collision, he's introducing doubt as to the veracity of his memory and therefore argument of who is at fault.

Fortunately his recall is good and his wife was on the scene in minutes as he was only around the corner from his house. Apparently there are plenty of photos of the aftermath but since the crash occurred a few months ago getting any other witnesses may prove impossible.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I got the hat time on this one from Weeds. :)

A few inquiries have suggested that in the absence of a camera it's straight to the lawyers on this one. The chap in question needs good advice.

A couple of points here..

1. Lane splitting on a puskbike IS legal in Queensland.
2. It would be interesting to know what insurance the chap has, and what help he has at hand. In my case, I'm a BQ member, and my bikes are comprehensively insured which gives me access to lots of help and insurance. Plus I gather we have some from the house too..
3. I have heard of another very very similar case to some mates just recently (luckily without the serious injury). Van passed five of them... indicated, pulled in front of them and jumped on the brakes. Two went either side, and three into the back. :eek::eek: The cops were intent on charging them after speaking to the driver. They then got statements from the riders and now just silence...
4. Cars have far better braking performance than most pushbikes (and motor bikes for that matter) so this seems to be something to watch for.

[clubagreenie]

Having been on both ends of this (and more than once) I can make some qualified comments and "what to dos".



Lawyer up, the insurance co is doing it, so should you. Get the ambulance chasers "no win no fee" type guys. They won't take it on unless they know they'll at least break even. And speak to a few and go with the one you feel most comfortable with and who "wants" to take it on.m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Letter of demand for all expenses. From ambulance, Dr, physio, even counselling to deal with the post accident street & trauma. Even travel costs to/from work or Dr's etc that you would normally not incur because you rode you now you're not confident enough to go back on the road. Even have the wife/girlfriend drive you for the first couple of weeks as you need to get your confidence back even just driving. He has to have injury insurance (greenslip) and also demand the details of his other insurance, if he hasn't passed this on I can't remember what they call it but he basically has left the scene of the accident without passing on all of the correct & valid information. You'll also want the passengers details so you can call them in for an interview of your own. Have notes written prior detailing the on site statement of the passenger. ASK the passenger in his opinion what was the state of mind of the driver in the time immediately prior to and then when he crossed the intersection and pulled into your lane. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
They'll try to settle out of court because then they essentially claim responsibility and pay for the damages without officially stating so. Go through the court to settle because then they have liability and then you can chase then for property damage as well as medical. mmmmmmmmm
Have the bike & helmet assessed by a couple of good bike shops. Have them write a report on the scope of damage, mechanism of damage and quote to replace all items (bike, helmet, clothing etc). Again, for the letters of demand.

It'll be long winded and tiring but it will get somewhere.

The first time I was hit a guy didn't like the fact there was a group of riders, on a RTA organised bike ride on the road. I was ahead of the group heading down hill and turning left at a set of lights. I turned left and he was stuck in traffic, so he jumped the median strip (down the wrong side of the street), turned left, down the wrong side of the second street, jumped the median strip again across 3 lanes, hit me hard enough to throw me around 8-10m through the air and into a canal and took off. Fortunately there was about 30 witnesses, I was carted off in an ambulance and he left the country. I know he's still on the immigration list to be arrested for "Attempted Vehicular Homicide" if he tries to re-enter. I know he applied for a new VISA once and someone made him aware of it.


I went through all I've suggested for you, with the exception of being 20, broke and fronting up money when ever they needed to process something I ended up out of pocket a few thousand and for nothing because the court could not get evidence from him or some crap. As this was before there was all the changes to the system (greenslips etc) I could not get details of his insurers to claim against etc so ended up nowhere.


Fast forward to about 2004 and I hit a cyclist at 0530 on the motorway as the result of a blackout caused by "Unknown Neurological Condition". After I got out of hospital I saw the victim (and he was, really really messed up) and sorted it all out. All his medical bills were covered by the greenslip system and my insurance paid all of his other expenses.
And despite having dozens of Dr's, the RTA medical staff and even the victim saying he didn't want any legal action taken they charged me with grievous bodily harm and fraud (don't ask on that one).

Lastly be wary of the police accident investigators. They (she) was the root cause of all the issues with my last case, doing the same job for 20+ years and mine was the proverbial straw. She was taken off the case about halfway through but not soon enough to have it reviewed and retried.Make sure they have no vendettas against anyone for anything they've seen. My case was dragged out over 5 years (and $80,000) because she was on stress leave and couldn't get her **** together so every time I fronted they prosecution was unprepared. It took me suggesting to the Judge, which he thought was a great idea, that if they didn't get it together during the lunch recess he would drop the case and have a no further charges order placed on the case. Amazingly enough they managed to organise themselves very quickly after that.

Sorry for digressing but I've seen these cases from both ends and persistence is what gets you over the line. Just being aware of you time limitations and also make yourself a pain in the ass of whenever requesting docs from insurance etc. Don't send a big list, just 2 or 3 docs, then another and another. The longer you drag it the more time, inconvenience and money it costs them. Plus (and I don't know if it applies in Qld) but they are required to assist you with any legal terminology, research for precedents etc that you may need, if you're doing your own work/research or are in court unrepresented. It's a laugh having the prosecution have to give you the means by which you can object to or disprove any of their arguments.

The police won't want to charge the driver as then they would have had to call out investigators to the site, close off the road etc. As that's now too late they have to put in double the effort, and make a report on the scene and also interview the driver and passenger plus any witnesses. get thw witnesses details too for your own records and interviews.


Hopefully it works out for the best.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

That's why I stopped riding my bike on the roads - 3 near misses in 3 weeks left me in no doubt that there are enough drivers who don't care / are not competent enough to share the road with others. :mad:

[Meken]

I did think about the lane splitting argument, however the fact he was not in the lefthand lane is proof in itself that the car must have been indicating a left turn. Motorcycles may routinely lane split as they have the benefit of speed, but no bicycle lane splits unless it is to avoid another stationery or turning vehicle, in this case the one supposedly turning left - but then not. Apparently there were also cars parked further up in the left lane which made it even less predictable that the car indicating to turn left would in fact go straight on.


In qld it is legal to overtake on the right, a vehicle turning left. He wasn't lane splitting he was overtaking a left turning vehicle

[Meken]

I got the hat time on this one from Weeds. :)

A few inquiries have suggested that in the absence of a camera it's straight to the lawyers on this one. The chap in question needs good advice.

A couple of points here..

1. Lane splitting on a puskbike IS legal in Queensland.
2. It would be interesting to know what insurance the chap has, and what help he has at hand. In my case, I'm a BQ member, and my bikes are comprehensively insured which gives me access to lots of help and insurance. Plus I gather we have some from the house too..
3. I have heard of another very very similar case to some mates just recently (luckily without the serious injury). Van passed five of them... indicated, pulled in front of them and jumped on the brakes. Two went either side, and three into the back. :eek::eek: The cops were intent on charging them after speaking to the driver. They then got statements from the riders and now just silence...
4. Cars have far better braking performance than most pushbikes (and motor bikes for that matter) so this seems to be something to watch for.


If the van jumped on the brakes immediately after changing lanes my argument would be that he was not driving with due care to leave enough room for him to change lanes in front of the bikes

[Homestar]

Don't think he can sue for personal injury unless a permanent injury is sustained. This can only be judged 18 months after the incident and has to be permanent to at least 10% of the body. I'm no Solicitor so the finer details I don't know but one of my best mates (who was seriously injured by another's fault recently) has just been through all that. Even with a broken nose, collar bone, cheek bone and requiring plastic surgery to fix his face (that will never be 100%) he has got no legal avenues to pursue. This isn't the USA after all.

Best he could do is get a copy of the Police report and tell the insurance company to jamb it.

Happy to be proven wrong though. Someone needs to teach dick drivers a lesson or two - good luck to him, but I have my doubts.

[simmo]

Tell the insurance company to **** off, and you'll see them in court.
Don't bother with a lawyer, that's their threat they can bankrupt you with their lawyers. Tell them "knock yourself out buddy I'm going for free".

You think the judge will award costs against you to a insurance company?

You think the judge needs a smart arse lawyer to help see the situation and make a decision? He'll most likely be annoyed as hell that some ****** is wasting his time on trivial ****. It s a car window for christ sake, a lawyer costs $500 an hour and 2000+ /day to go to court. Everyone need to do a reality check.
Answer their letters, play the game, waste time, waste their money, , go to court for free It's your right as a citizen.:D