Civil Liberties

[Chucaro]

Reading about the proposed legislation to be introduce in Qld I just wonder how fine will be the line.
I am all in favor to combat organized crime but when a legislation can bring the power which "anyone can now be hauled into a secret hearing at the CMC and jailed if they refuse to answer questions" as the per the news HERE (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-11/government-plans-cmc-power-boost-to-crack-organised-crime-gangs/5016392) it bring me memories of what happens in Uruguay on the mid 60's :(
I sincerely hope that the "human nature" in some to abuse power will not destroy the civil harmony and way of life in Australia.
Please do not make political comments because it is not a matter of one side of politics abuse of power is part of human greed for power and control and happens within any ideology.
I think (with my experience of 45 yeas in Australia) that the Australian people will not tolerate abuse of power by anyone and would like to know the opinion of those that know more about the Australian people nature than me.
Perhaps because my previous OS experience things like this make me very anxious and there is not justification for that here in Oz............

[Eevo]

the Australian people will not tolerate abuse of power by anyone
i dont agree.
Australians dont care.

take a look at local council elections. they are voluntary, noone cares and noone votes.

[schuy1]

You are probably right to be concerned. As 1 who has followed the various stuff that has been implemented "for our safety and public good" it seems they just keep on using the boil the frog method. A little law here another over there. And for the life of me I cannot see any change in the criminal element it was supposedly aimed at, yet the general public in some way must complie. And it seems to always need "adjusting" with stiffer penalities and so on. But little by little it tightens.. The "Bikie gangs" are a good 1, I would have thought there are more than enough laws covering public affray, stealing , murder, drug dealing. etc but no it seems more and more powers are needed? And I bet none are wiped from the books when the "problem " has been fixed!
The Aussie average is very casual about stuff, because it always has happened somewhere else and we have been the "lucky" country in that regard. It is like an old german said to me once, Australia is so forgiving, it is because we have never known a proper calamity like a total famine or war such as Europe has seen many times. It changes peoples ideas he said.

[carlschmid2002]

i am all for civil liberties and because of this I am 100% behind any laws to get these idiots off the streets. When they are happy to bludgeon each other in public areas and shoot wildly at suburban houses they deserve everything coming to them. We ask our police officers to uphold the law and protect us from these fools. They are not human punching bags. i have lived in this country for 43 years and i would like to believe that we don't have the STASI and if we are innocent we will be protected by the law.

[V8Ian]

Just take a leaf from Joh's trial......."I don't recall...I don't recall...I don't recall..."
There are enough laws now, to bring the lawless to brook, they require a burden of proof though. The new laws will allow those in power to jail someone because of the clothes they wear, bike they ride or company they keep.
Monday; Odin's Warriors and Banditos....next week the Merthyr Vespa Riders, HOG and Ulysses.

[tonic]

i dont agree.
Australians dont care.

take a look at local council elections. they are voluntary, noone cares and noone votes.


Not in QLD, they are mandatory.

[Chucaro]

Just take a leaf from Joh's trial......."I don't recall...I don't recall...I don't recall..."
There are enough laws now, to bring the lawless to brook, they require a burden of proof though. The new laws will allow those in power to jail someone because of the clothes they wear, bike they ride or company they keep.
Monday; Odin's Warriors and Banditos....next week the Merthyr Vespa Riders, HOG and Ulysses.

Posties with Honda's 110 are not included (I hope) :D

[vnx205]

I think there is general agreement that these undesirables need to be dealt with. The question is how they should be dealt with.

In Robert Bolt's play "A Man for All Seasons", the following exchange takes place between Sir Thomas More and William Roper.

William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

While the current proposals might not amount to cutting down existing laws, we need to deal with the problem in a way that does not threaten the rights of ordinary citizens at a later date.

[Eevo]

Not in QLD, they are mandatory.

i didnt know that.

[Kev the Fridgy]

i didnt know that.

Yep and if you don't vote, move house forget to change address on the role etc etc and just plain forget as sometimes happens they suspend your drivers licence

[V8Ian]

Yep and if you don't vote, move house forget to change address on the role etc etc and just plain forget as sometimes happens they suspend your drivers licenceNo doubt without notification. :mad:

[bob10]

If you have been keeping up with this, you would have read about the fight at the café, between bandidos & finks. Long story short, now it has gone to court, it is being presented thru the media as a fight between two men over a woman. Not a bikie war over territory. It is almost as though the government is trying to find an excuse to relax the pressure. keep an eye on this, could be interesting, Bob

[mikehzz]

i didnt know that.

Mandatory in NSW as well

[mikehzz]

If you are unlucky enough to be wrongly accused and put away without due process then at least you can console yourself with the fact that red tape has been cut when dealing with real criminals. You will save on lawyers fees as well. Also, there will likely be a few extra non criminals like you in gaol to hang out with....the positives just keep on coming.

[jimr1]

The way I see It . In 1788 there was a Governor General using British Laws . Now since then we now have Local , State and Federal Laws at this point I must say I know we have to have Laws , and the rule of Law . The problem I can see is very few are repealed . New Laws keep being made . I wonder what society will be like in the next 200 years , at the current rate of keep making new Laws , I pity future generations as there will be very little Liberty ...

[Eevo]

Yep and if you don't vote, move house forget to change address on the role etc etc and just plain forget as sometimes happens they suspend your drivers licence

holy crap.

do people actually care like they do for state and federal elections?

in SA, local council elections have about a 30% turnout rate.

[clubagreenie]

Mandatory in NSW as well

Really?

Lived here for 40+years and never voted in one and never been queried.

[mikehzz]

Penalties for not Voting - NSW Electoral Commission (http://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/voting/penalties_for_not_voting)

The first sentence says it should have cost you $55 for not voting in State or Local Government elections

[ATH]

I've got at least two rellies who've been here 40 plus years who aren't on any electoral roll and have no intention of doing so. I know other people who are the same including one who's been in the Navy and has never voted.
Suspect there are many more around as well.
And when looking at the awful self serving types in all our governments who really can blame them?
AlanH.

[Davehoos]

drivers liecence and rego cancelation 10 years ago for non payment of fines.

dept collection often gets handed out to private industry.

my wife had her rego's and liecence cancelled from a car crash-neg driving -non attendance to court before she started primary school.

[Davehoos]

if you don't have property in your name---pay rates, its unlikely they will chase you for non voting.

know of heeps of people that arnt on the roll, some that don't even claim welfare..

[Ralph1Malph]

Civil Liberties caused all this kerfuffle.
Btw, let's be clear, only non criminals care about civils liberties or play by the rules.
Eg. One OMCC can specifically target members and family of another. No reference to civil liberties at all.

However, the law and the overwhelming populace are restricted by civil liberties and rules. In effect fighting with one arm tied behind their back. Our laws and constitution prohibit (generally) targetting a specific group.
At the risk of being flamed mercilessly, how long would organisations such as OMCC, Mafia, Crips, Bloods etc last if the non criminal populace was allowed and encouraged to apply the same standard of play to them?

At the risk if enraging Chukka, some of the methods used by administrations and regimes throughout history worked! They may be immoral by our current western standards, but maybe it is time to fight fire with fire? I am sure Chukka could talk at length about the Argentinian phenomenom of 'disappearing'. The mafia perfected 'cement boots'. North Korea and China(?) use 're-education camps'.

I pose the question? How would OMCC membership progress if some of these methods were allowed to be used by the law? My bet is membership would fall.

Many of us here know Chopper Read is now dead. Just as many think he deserved it. But almost as many quietly or tacitly accepted or approved that he took out other crims!

Flame away!:D

Ralph

[newhue]

might be a bit rough but I think it would get things sorted.

The 2 and 6 rule. good for rapist, kidy fiddlers, organised crime, drug dealers and most other useless loosers.

1 chance is for reform and mend your ways.
second offence, well.... YOU blew YOUR chance, so YOU now go 6ft under. End of problem.

Hard but fair I think.

[Chucaro]

might be a bit rough but I think it would get things sorted.

The 2 and 6 rule. good for rapist, kidy fiddlers, organised crime, drug dealers and most other useless loosers.

1 chance is for reform and mend your ways.
second offence, well.... YOU blew YOUR chance, so YOU now go 6ft under. End of problem.

Hard but fair I think.

The problem is if the people in power or some of them are corrupt or have a twisted ideology, then perhaps you have one chance or why buther to give you a chance ;)
It can happen, it happens before ;)

[bob10]

This may help. It's a free World, but if you don't vote, don't complain about the system you live under. Bob

Voting within Australia – Frequently Asked Questions - Australian ... (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aec.gov.au%2Ffaqs%2Fvoting_au stralia.htm&ei=ESZZUsjlFJGviQeDh4GQCg&usg=AFQjCNGS4WhB05MpMte1p1eooh5leYPy3w)


Australian Electoral Commission (http://www.aec.gov.au) › Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.aec.gov.au/FAQs/)‎

Cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eITc-GUHoAUJ:www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au)
Similar (https://www.google.com.au/search?biw=1024&bih=622&q=related:www.aec.gov.au/faqs/voting_australia.htm+why+should+voting+be+compulso ry+in+australia&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=ESZZUsjlFJGviQeDh4GQCg&ved=0CDAQHzAA)



Sep 11, 2013 - Yes, voting is compulsory for every Australian citizen aged 18 years or ... If you have made a mistake on your ballot paper you should return it to ...

[Kev the Fridgy]

if you don't have property in your name---pay rates, its unlikely they will chase you for non voting.

know of heeps of people that arnt on the roll, some that don't even claim welfare..

Want to have a wager on that, I don't have property but found out three years after the election and 7 days before the cancellation, I had an interesting conversation with "SPER", seems that although the Dept. of Transport, banks, phone, electricity etc etc all had my updated address the AEC still had me at the old address and as such that was were the correspondence went..... she also informed me that after three non replies it is the automatic cancellation of the drivers licence for anything that has been put through "SPER".....I was talking about this at work and you would be surprised how many people are driving around without a licence and don't even know it

[Chucaro]

What happen now if a person do not have a fix address?
You can not vote if you are nor registered in a proper address.
A homeless person cannot be forced to give an address.
How they can force to vote?
Just a thought

[jimr1]

I came to live in OZ. some 25 plus years ago , We had only lived in our house for a month or so , when there was a council election , we did not know any of the candidates , or any thing about any of the party's , let alone that It was compulsory to vote . Anyway we didn't vote ,thinking nothing of It until my wife and I received a fine each . She did appeal and the fine was wavered ..

[mikehzz]

Local Government elections in South Australia have voluntary voting. I think it is more the exception than the rule Australia wide.

[CapableCate]

Just take a leaf from Joh's trial......."I don't recall...I don't recall...I don't recall..."
There are enough laws now, to bring the lawless to brook, they require a burden of proof though. The new laws will allow those in power to jail someone because of the clothes they wear, bike they ride or company they keep.
Monday; Odin's Warriors and Banditos....next week the Merthyr Vespa Riders, HOG and Ulysses.

Spot on, sadly. :rulez:

[DiscoMick]

Want to have a wager on that, I don't have property but found out three years after the election and 7 days before the cancellation, I had an interesting conversation with "SPER", seems that although the Dept. of Transport, banks, phone, electricity etc etc all had my updated address the AEC still had me at the old address and as such that was were the correspondence went..... she also informed me that after three non replies it is the automatic cancellation of the drivers licence for anything that has been put through "SPER".....I was talking about this at work and you would be surprised how many people are driving around without a licence and don't even know it

I've heard many stories about this happening. People didn't receive letters, their licences were cancelled and they didn't even know. When they protested they hadn't been notified, they were told it was too bad.

[Chucaro]

Bikies-only prison planned under new Queensland laws (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-15/qld-government-plans-bikie-only-prison-under-new-laws/5022524)

How long will take for the do-gooders or criminal lawyers to transform the proposed new jail in another "Hilton"?
Is the legislation as the government said exclusive for motorbike gangs?
Criminals will findind a loophole

[303gunner]

I came to live in OZ. some 25 plus years ago , We had only lived in our house for a month or so , when there was a council election , we did not know any of the candidates , or any thing about any of the party's , let alone that It was compulsory to vote . Anyway we didn't vote ,thinking nothing of It until my wife and I received a fine each . She did appeal and the fine was wavered ..
Only Australian Citizens are required to vote, indeed ALLOWED to vote (although UK and NZ citizens were allowed the option of being placed on the electoral roll), so I can't see how one month after you arrived in the country you were fined for not voting?

[PeterM]

i am all for civil liberties and because of this I am 100% behind any laws to get these idiots off the streets. When they are happy to bludgeon each other in public areas and shoot wildly at suburban houses they deserve everything coming to them. We ask our police officers to uphold the law and protect us from these fools. They are not human punching bags. i have lived in this country for 43 years and i would like to believe that we don't have the STASI and if we are innocent we will be protected by the law.

Hahaha, and you believe that?

This legislation removes any test of innocence by the judiciary. Any organisation can be declared criminal by the stroke of a pen, no burden of proof necessary.

If you've worked somewhere where an OMC has held a function, you are now considered an associate.

If you run a small business and a person who happens to be a member of an OMC frequents your business regularly, you're now an associate.

No recourse, no right to silence, no requirement for reasonable suspicion for the police to pull you over. They can do it if they feel like it.

And there's not a thing you can do about it.

[PeterM]

Is the legislation as the government said exclusive for motorbike gangs?


Not at all. As the laws are written and as they were passed in the wee hours of this morning, anyone who rides a motorbike or 'looks' like a bikie or has ever associated with one can be subject to these laws.

To expand these laws to include any group you like is now a simple administrative process of adding the group to the list. No burden of proof of criminal activities (they haven't done that for the OMC hence these laws in the first place) and no judical checks at all.

Hell, even the QLD government solicitor hasn't read these laws before they were passed. Absolutely no scrutiny whatsoever.

[Chucaro]

Not at all. As the laws are written and as they were passed in the wee hours of this morning, anyone who rides a motorbike or 'looks' like a bikie or has ever associated with one can be subject to these laws.

To expand these laws to include any group you like is now a simple administrative process of adding the group to the list. No burden of proof of criminal activities (they haven't done that for the OMC hence these laws in the first place) and no judical checks at all.

Hell, even the QLD government solicitor hasn't read these laws before they were passed. Absolutely no scrutiny whatsoever.

Gestapo and KGB eat your heart out!!
In today news :

SECURITY guards, second-hand car dealers and people who work in gyms may be targeted by the State Government after the Attorney-General indicated more industries were in the firing line in the war on bikies. (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/new-laws-in-bikie-war-pass-queensland-parliament/story-fnihsrf2-1226740591889)

Joh's ghost err....Mr Bleijie said:
"security, gym and second-hand car industries would be subject to the same requirements for "fit and proper" employees as tattoo parlours are under the latest legislation."

[akelly]

No activity of these Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs is not already covered by another law. These new laws do nothing, except take citizens rights away to feed the fear of idiots.

The OMGs are not inventing new crimes - if the Govt funded the police properly they could get on with enforcing the existing laws. This is just an attempt to look 'tough on crime' while doing effectively nothing to prevent it.

If making things illegal worked to prevent those things, there would be no drug problem, or speeding, or murder. It doesn't work to prevent crime - it just limits the rights of the people.

[brettphillips43]

Unfortunately Eevo... i agree with your basic outlook. Though it also comes down to the fact that why should people vote for an ileagle Govt entity. We are only slated for 2 levels of Government... Federal and State. No Referendum to legitimise local councils. :)

[Hoges]

No-one seems to be asking why people...mainly blokes...join OMGs in the first place. For many, it's a refuge ...they want to belong...anywhere. They are already marginalised, so joining a gang on the margins of society seems to be a natural course...

Interesting that the Govt is talking about a bikies-only prison...am wondering how they will put them to work... maybe they'll introduce the concept of a ....chain gang:eek::angel::wasntme:

[Ratel10mm]

We never do bother to learn from history, do we. :sad: :shakeshead:

[brettphillips43]

I agree cobba! How about a return to our gun laws "pre 1996"... At least we still had the God given right to self defence. Since then, ALL manor of crime has escalated. Like the sticker on the rear window of my Disco states... "Fight crime, Shoot back". If we ALL stand by our Constitution, we STILL maintain that right. I do. :)

[brettphillips43]

Chucaro... that loop hole is call Cash... :)...

[DiscoMick]

Its bad enough that cameras are filming us in shops, on the street, at traffic lights etc etc etc and invading our privacy, but now any group which annoys the government of the day can be added to the list and totally deprived of the presumption of innocence. Its not good enough to say that if you don't commit a crime you don't have anything to fear, because history proves that innocent people have a lot to fear from governments which give themselves excessive powers. Just ask the Jews, Cambodians, Chileans, Chinese etc etc etc. How long will it be until people with modified vehicles are declared a threat to safety? Don't laugh, it could easily happen now.

[Chucaro]

What would happens if the gangs star purchasing ex army LR; are the LR groups will declared nasty as well?

Three Defenders owners together and bingo! to jail no questions ask :D

[clubagreenie]

I can picture the chase scene, defenders driving down the highway with the cops running alongside.

[Disco Muppet]

I can picture the chase scene, defenders driving down the highway with the cops running alongside.

Yeah but heaven help those manning the road blocks ;)

[clubagreenie]

Yeah, defenders visible from 5km away and barely an hour to get out of the way.

[newhue]

Its bad enough that cameras are filming us in shops, on the street, at traffic lights etc etc etc and invading our privacy, but now any group which annoys the government of the day can be added to the list and totally deprived of the presumption of innocence. Its not good enough to say that if you don't commit a crime you don't have anything to fear, because history proves that innocent people have a lot to fear from governments which give themselves excessive powers. Just ask the Jews, Cambodians, Chileans, Chinese etc etc etc. How long will it be until people with modified vehicles are declared a threat to safety? Don't laugh, it could easily happen now.

Mick, I an ever becoming more confused, frustrated or maybe depressed, and beaten by the overwhelming amount of stalking our Government does. I had a NP ranger show up with a camera on his car, and one on his shirt, then tell me in a loud clear booming voice "no fires"' as I stood outside the bollards of my pre booked camp ground. Fires, like fun, have been with humans for ever and a day, but not in Qld. They now have it on file I have been instructed no fires in a NP in QLD. And my rego number from my car for my where a bouts, linked to my Credit Card. Hell they even monitor how many years I have been booking camp sites with a child under 5. And I thought I was only camping.

Apart form all the traffic and speed cameras on the roads, police cars constantly taking photos all day long cross referencing data. Parking bays or zones crossed referenced with with type of registration. Cars registered, stolen, suspended, outstanding ? from perhaps tax obligations to perhaps no shows at the poling booth. Traffic lights have facilities to recording mobile phone codes with movements. Perhaps cross referenced with the phones GPS's. My new drivers licence seems to be a pre curser to the Australia Card. It has a chip on it, and if I can pay without swiping at the shops I guess it can be scanned from the appropriate device. People say if your doing nothing wrong there is no need to worry. But why then does the government follow me around so much. And if I know two fifth of **** all, why do I feel it's so wrong. I cant even dream what else they do.
To me we are ruining our self worth, freedom, and happiness in the name of safety and security. Politicians seem to hastily making laws for the majority based on the actions of the few. John Howard introduced similar laws on Unions meeting with each other just like the bikers have now. Should this be introduced for politicians so we don't have another useless expansive show like Rudd and Gillard.

[akelly]

Not sure what your excellent points (and they are excellent) have to do with Rudd & Gillard?

Governments everywhere are addicted to 'Big Data'. The only way to change this is to vote them out, but Australians keep voting them in. We have only ourselves to blame.

The supermarkets (and other retailers) give you a rewards card that tracks every purchase you make, where you make it and how you pay. If you pay with a credit card it records those details too and links the two cards together in the database. But no one is forcing you to use those rewards cards - people choose to use them because they are more interested in what they can get than what they could lose. Every day most of us choose convenience, savings and financial benefit over freedoms.

Maybe instead of voting for billionaires, footballers and blokes who are into cars we should vote for some people in the Senate who are interested in protecting us? Just a thought.

[newhue]

Not sure what your excellent points (and they are excellent) have to do with Rudd & Gillard?

Governments everywhere are addicted to 'Big Data'. The only way to change this is to vote them out, but Australians keep voting them in. We have only ourselves to blame.

SNIP



there are laws to stop unions colluding with more than 3, there are now laws to stop bikers colluding. Perhaps there should be laws to stop politicians colluding and wasting everyone's time. I think Rudd, Gillard, and there cronies met that criteria.

[Disco Muppet]

there are laws to stop unions colluding with more than 3, there are now laws to stop bikers colluding. Perhaps there should be laws to stop politicians colluding and wasting everyone's time. I think Rudd, Gillard, and there cronies met that criteria.

I think Adams point is that such antics are not restricted to the last two Labor leaders. ;)

I still think we need to have a zombie apocalypse. :D

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ........... People say if your doing nothing wrong there is no need to worry. ...........

Going by my experience, the problem is that what it is nothing wrong for you or me in what we are doing, even if it is legal, it can be wrong for those in power were you civil right could affect their interests or ideology.
Unfortunately in these beautiful country people are lay back by nature or have not been trough experiences were the freedom and civil rights can disappear within a couple of years.

[akelly]

I think Adams point is that such antics are not restricted to the last two Labor leaders. ;)

I still think we need to have a zombie apocalypse. :D

Yep. And +1 for the Zombies.

[bob10]

Interesting story about life in the 50's in Brisbane, regarding Constable Terry Lewis. From " three Crooked Kings", by Matthew Condon.

" By mid-1950 Lewis found himself behind the handlebars of a police motorcycle. Here he encountered some action. His first mention in the press as a policeman came after a wild , 60 MPH chase on the 25th August . At about 7.40 PM Lewis & another motorcycle cop noticed three youths travelling in a utility truck along Main ST. Kangaroo point. The vehicle did not have any headlights on. They stopped the driver, who said the truck lights had fused , & he had left his drivers licence at home. Lewis said he would follow them home to check his licence.

The truck drove off at 25 MPH, but soon hit 40 [! ] , & sped through stop signs crossed to the opposite side of the road on numerous occasions, swept in front of trams, :eek: & narrowly missed a group of pedestrians in Fortitude Valley. Lewis repeatedly drew alongside the vehicle & shouted to the driver to stop, but Gleeson attempted to run him off the road. His mate then hurled 3 MILK bottles at their pursuers [ nowadays they try to shoot them] & one shattered on impact. They were ultimately apprehended after several hair raising mile thru the suburbs of Spring Hill, Morningside, & Woolloongabba. The three youths were fined. "

This came from a time of drinking age of 21, drugs were not common, , people kept their houses open, even at night :eek: , children walked or rode their bikes to school, and actually played till dark after school, without parental supervision. A mans handshake was good enough to seal a deal, and women felt safe walking after dark

On the other side, a Black man could go and fight for his country, but was not allowed to walk into a public bar , with his Army mates. The major corruption was in the Police Force, while the Pollies looked on, & hid the brown paper bags under the desk. Yes, we needed a change of government in Qld, but the massive majority is taking us back to the future. Bob

[clubagreenie]

Problem with a zombie apocalypse is you can't use more than two or they're colluding.

[Disco Muppet]

Problem with a zombie apocalypse is you can't use more than two or they're colluding.

Problem with zombie apocalypse is my knife is in the car and it's too cold to go and get.
Solves lots of problems, fun for all the family, what's not to like?

[clubagreenie]

Too cold? I'm sitting in shorts in a/c and fan on.

[Disco Muppet]

Too cold? I'm sitting in shorts in a/c and fan on.

Yes, but you're in Sydney. You know, the olympic one.
I'm in Orange. You know, the frozen wasteland one.

[clubagreenie]

Just head east about an hour or so, the news says it's a bit warmer there.

[sheerluck]

Yes, but you're in Sydney. You know, the olympic one.
I'm in Orange. You know, the frozen wasteland one.

Technically speaking, Muppet, you live 15km outside Orange. How often do I have to keep reminding you of that?

[RisingSun]

Problem with zombie apocalypse is you have to destroy the brain, good luck with some of the examples thrown up earlier :wasntme:

[THE BOOGER]

Technically speaking, Muppet, you live 15km outside Orange. How often do I have to keep reminding you of that?

That's almost in Molong:eek:

[Disco Muppet]

That's almost in Molong:eek:

Wrong side :p
Not that there's anything wrong with Molong...
Right Gav? :wasntme: :p
To be perfectly honest, I kind of forgot you had a connection to Molong...

[DiscoMick]

The QLD bikers law will be a fizzer anyway as they'll just resign from their current clubs which are on the list and either start new clubs or move over the border to Tweed Heads and start again.


The argument, 'If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear can be reversed to say, 'If I'm doing nothing wrong you have no reason to track me.'

The politicians love to stir up fear and paranoia and then say they need more powers to protect us from the danger they exaggerated. Take the road toll - its been falling for three decades, but still they want even more powers to harass motorists.

[frantic]

So let me get this straight, In Qld the state govt. can outlaw a group if they don't like them with no review cases or prosecution of that group as an organised crime mob, arrest any member if there are 3+ wearing the outlawed groups label, and what else?
As somebody else said what next? Which group do you know of that is 100% pure and cannot be smeared by the actions of a minority of it's members and a well planned media campaign.
In saying that having a Motorcycle club where some members cannot/or can barely ride and are there for "business connections" does themselves no favours;) (thinking of certain inner city clubs) It's like having a 4wd club where members don't need a 4x4, or license.

[carlschmid2002]

I grew up in Mossman NQ in the 70s. We used to have a block of land at Yungaburra and one weekend we went went to Lake Eacham for a picnic with friends. There was an Italian man there with his family enjoying the day when this large group of bikies turned up and parked near his picnic table. They were loud and obnoxious and when the man asked them to keep it down they started to do burnouts and the like and sprayed dirt and over his families picnic. They proceeded to start assaulting him in front of his family. There was perhaps a hundred people there that day and the only people who went to his aid was my father and his French friend. They hit his French mate with a log across the back, luckily it was rotten. They dissapeared just after that. These were the days when they all rode Jap bikes. No one deserves to be treated like this. They behave in a pack mentality and I doubt they would ever take on someone one on one. I love bikes but this incident has made me always have a strong distaste for bikey gangs. Give the police all the power they need to keep the mongrels off the street I say.

[Ausfree]

The QLD bikers law will be a fizzer anyway as they'll just resign from their current clubs which are on the list and either start new clubs or move over the border to Tweed Heads and start again.


The argument, 'If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear can be reversed to say, 'If I'm doing nothing wrong you have no reason to track me.'

The politicians love to stir up fear and paranoia and then say they need more powers to protect us from the danger they exaggerated. Take the road toll - its been falling for three decades, but still they want even more powers to harass motorists.
You are spot-on with your prediction, I see the Finks MC club has merged with an American based MC club called The Mongols.;)Oh, nearly forgot, they are saying they have cleaned up their act and they are now "nice boys".

[DiscoMick]

I know there's a bikers club war on the Gold Coast for control of the drug trade, and that obviously has to be stopped. I wouldn't object to any reasonable solution. I'd like to hear a good explanation of why the powers the police already have couldn't cover all the actions of the bikers. Maybe there is a case, I'm open to be persuaded, but I haven't heard it so far.

[newhue]

I think we need to re boot the system, cause the path we are taking isn't working. We can see glimpses of how we will go by looking at the US model.
We should move away from the more rules, aggressive policing, and suppression of freedom. Drugs, gambling, alcohol, and violence can only increase as the society becomes more restricted, frustrated, depressed, and poorer.
It seems society has been on a bit of a faster slide after the golden years of the 50's. Fractured families with fighting parent, same sex couples raising children, drug ****ed and drunk parents must leave their children confused and neglected. Along with looser parenting styles and discipline, greater affluence, and an idea of "you can have it now" and " you can have or do anything" has us walking a downward trail.
I think schools should be teaching ethics from day one until completion. Respect, fairness, compassion, empathy, patience, resilience, all those things parents should be doing. Perhaps most do, but it's the few who aren't getting it that then become losers and run a muck; i'e biker. Then the Government makes rules for the majority on the actions of the minority.

from fires in a NP to biker fight in an air port...its al the same. Some dick ruins it for majority.

[Chucaro]

The later news in ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-21/officers-who-question-qld-police-bikies-crackdown-told-to-quit/5034698) it is a bit a of a worry!

Quote:
The Queensland Police Union (QPU) says internal emails sent to rank and file officers warns them to carry out the mission or be shown the door.

QPU president Ian Leavers says police have every right to question the crackdown because many are being forced to carry out search warrants at tattoo parlours and clubhouses without legal grounds. end of quote :eek:

This is a carbon copy of the abuse of power typical of dictators who think that their power is above the existing laws.
My comment have nothing to do with the bikers, it is that today they do with them and tomorrow with the rest of the population.
It appears to me that the police force cannot any longer act under the existing laws.

[DiscoMick]

I think schools should be teaching ethics from day one until completion. Respect, fairness, compassion, empathy, patience, resilience, all those things parents should be doing. Perhaps most do, but it's the few who aren't getting it that then become losers and run a muck; i'e biker. Then the Government makes rules for the majority on the actions of the minority.

Schools often try, but then its not backed up at home.

[vnx205]

I think schools should be teaching ethics from day one until completion.


Schools often try, but then its not backed up at home.

There is also the question of which part of the curriculum you would cut to make room for all these things that used to be taught within the family.

Would you reduce the time spent on literacy, numeracy, science, history or some other subject?

[Gerokent]

"There is also the question of which part of the curriculum you would cut to make room for all these things that used to be taught within the family.

Would you reduce the time spent on literacy, numeracy, science, history or some other subject?"

These are not "taught" but are (should be) inherent in our daily lives and actions.
It is the do-gooders and nanny mentallity that is not allowing for it to be enforced these days. More nanny leads to more disfunction not less.
The pollies and police are targeting anybody (ie. "soft targets") to be seen by the media as doing their job, getting the numbers up, as it were.
May be the law makers of our country should be simplifying the laws, not making them more conviluted and eaiser to corrupt.
AUSTRALIA REMEMBER "when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty"

[akelly]

There is also the question of which part of the curriculum you would cut to make room for all these things that used to be taught within the family.

Would you reduce the time spent on literacy, numeracy, science, history or some other subject?

Easy. Cut any kind of religious instruction. Plenty of time to teach logic, reasoning and ethics then.

[mikehzz]

....
AUSTRALIA REMEMBER "when injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty"

That's the type of slogan that Americans spout to justify their God given right to carry shootin' irons.

[vnx205]

Easy. Cut any kind of religious instruction. Plenty of time to teach logic, reasoning and ethics then.

That is already happening in NSW ... sort of.

It isn't made easy for parents to choose ethics over religion.

Special Ethics Education (http://www.curriculumsupport.education.nsw.gov.au/policies/ethics/)

Opting out of religion only way in to ethics (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/opting-out-of-religion-only-way-in-to-ethics-20121204-2atad.html)

Ethics come in from the cold after Labor U-turn (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/ethics-come-in-from-the-cold-after-labor-uturn-20130407-2hen9.html)

http://splash.abc.net.au/media/-/m/104496/debate-surrounding-ethics-classes-in-school?WT.srch=1&WT.mc_id=Corp_Innovation-Splash_AdWords_:school%20ethics%20classes_b_g_3400 7553079_&gclid=CMKcq-XAp7oCFYPrpAodCVYA7Q

[newhue]

Certainally in high school graphics, wood work, and metal work could be substuted, even science, art, or music perhaps. All these subjects are relevant to career that has training with the job. Life skills, money management, home economics, history and political studies are more relevant to life for most people.

[akelly]

That is already happening in NSW ... sort of.

It isn't made easy for parents to choose ethics over religion.


I heard a radio interview with that Nile bloke last year - schools aren't even ALLOWED to tell parents about the ethics classes. The parents have to opt out of religion first, then ask for ethics class. That was the deal the religious loons made with the state govt.

Utter garbage. There should be no religion at all in state schools, other than in history classes.

[akelly]

Certainally in high school graphics, wood work, and metal work could be substuted, even science, art, or music perhaps. All these subjects are relevant to career that has training with the job. Life skills, money management, home economics, history and political studies are more relevant to life for most people.

You're so right! Every 3 months I rue not doing accounting at school... would have been much more useful than the stuff I chose.

[Disco Muppet]

It seems society has been on a bit of a faster slide after the golden years of the 50's. Fractured families with fighting parent, same sex couples raising children, drug ****ed and drunk parents must leave their children confused and neglected.

Using this as an example, not wanting to start that particular debate again.
Raises the point though, ethics and morals is entirely subjective.
To some people, same sex couples raising children is a huge issue. To others, it's not an issue at all
So yes, Schools should teach useful things. The only useful subjects I did were PDHPE and maths, not really getting that much use out of Studies of Religion or four units of history.
But ethics and morals should, IMHO, be something for the parents to deal with, as well as the child themselves when they become an adult.
Consider, it used to be that we got all our ethics and morals from religion.
Now, we have lots of people (rightly so IMHO) saying that in state funded schools, pushing a particular religious view point, and in turn the associated values, on children is wrong.
School should be about providing education and skills for becoming a productive, non dole bludging, participating member of society.
How to be a decent human being is entirely subjective, and applying a blanket type approach just doesn't work.

[The Reg]

I've always held to the idea that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear....I know this has been abused in some countries in the past. However, 'anarchy' is something not to be condoned:cool:....and these gangs virtually practice it.

[Chucaro]

Interesting debate but what it have to do with the risk to loose our freedom and that the police act with the existing laws :confused:

[PhilipA]

Some interesting viewpoints.
My impression from the press I guess is that the Bikies have moved to the Gold Coast from Sydney as Sydney has become too hot, because of the recent law changes there.
This would indicate that the tougher association laws are working.

When you all talk about civil liberties IMHO it is a balance. I distinctly recall sitting in Mona Vale hospital casualty on 9/11 seeing the planes go into the World trade Centre and saying to my wife that we are seeing the end of civil liberties as we know it. This has come to pass. Hell at Sydney airport you get Xrayed now especially as wryly commented by AFAIR a blonde, if you are blonde as you have to balance out all the swarthy types in the name of fairness.

You seem to all forget that our civil liberties have been already eroded. you are guilty until proven innocent if you are pinged by a speed camera. At least it seems to me now that the cops are so busy checking number plates that they let you go if over the speed limit by a few Ks.

ASIS and ASIO Will have a dossier on you if you have visited just about anywhere in the Middle east, especially if you are a Moslem. And rightly so as this is a response to a potential threat.

I read today that the MCA is supporting a High Court Challenge on the Queensland laws. If the court follows previous judgments they will probably find the laws unconstitutional especially the bit about different jail terms for the same offence if a bikie or bikie leader.

This is one of the great things about Australia , separation of the executive ( government) and the judiciary and this is one of our major checks and balances.
Finally all this new surveiilance is because the technology is now available.( Ie because they can) I have no idea why we still have number plates. Why not an RFID? It would be neater but then deprive all those people who need to express themselves through number plates like BAA BAA on a black Jeep which I must say I found witty.
Regards Philip A

[Eevo]

I've always held to the idea that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear..

if im not doing anything wrong, why do you need to spy on me?

[Eevo]

ASIS and ASIO Will have a dossier on you if you have visited just about anywhere in the Middle east, especially if you are a Moslem. And rightly so as this is a response to a potential threat.



i believe ASIS would be in breach of the law if they kept dossiers of australian citizens.

[vnx205]

So yes, Schools should teach useful things. The only useful subjects I did were PDHPE and maths, not really getting that much use out of Studies of Religion or four units of history.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the value of your study of history.

It may be a large part of the reason why you understand the world you live in. It helps a lot to really understand the way things are if you know something of how things came to be that way.

This site offers a fuller explanation of the point I am trying to make.

What is History & Why Study It? (http://www.siena.edu/pages/3289.asp)

History is a means to understand the past and present. The different interpretations of the past allows us to see the present differently and therefore imagine—and work towards—different futures. Through the study of history we can investigate and interpret why society developed as it has and determine what influences have affected the past and present and shape the future. It helps one to understand the immense complexity of our world and provides insights to help cope with the problems and possibilities of the present and future. History also provides a sense of identity to understand the collective past that has have made us what we are today. In one sense history is the only thing that is real. The way in which people identify and interact with one another is by and large a consequence of history, which shapes and conditions individuals and societies whether they fully understand it or not.

I think Chucaro, who said,
Interesting debate but what it have to do with the risk to loose our freedom and that the police act with the existing laws would agree that some of his concerns about civil liberties derive from his knowledge of the history of the erosion of civil liberties in other countries.

[mikehzz]

if im not doing anything wrong, why do you need to spy on me?

What is spying? Events are flagged and they tie to people. Recently I bought petrol at a garage in South Australia while at the same time my card was used to buy a latte in a restaurant in Brazil. I'm happy for that type of spying, but it means that my transactions are being scrutinized. The lines get very blurred indeed.

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ..................
I think Chucaro, who said, would agree that some of his concerns about civil liberties derive from his knowledge of the history of the erosion of civil liberties in other countries.
You are spot on! but my experience is related to rebellion economy measures by the government and abuse of companies regarding working conditions.
Back in the very early 60's, we in Uruguay were very lay back with the natural approach that what ever was happens in another countries regarding the limited civil liberties "will never happens to us"
How wrong we was :(
That was because the country was at the end of a golden era regarding wealth and standard of living.
Then the economy start deteriorating and the right governments started squeezing the working class and the middle class started loosing status.
Bingo! people complained and the government took measures to stop people complaining.
The case here in Australia it is for different reasons but once the governments implements laws to limit our civil liberties then you can be sure that they will abuse their power by use them for any situation that they think it is justified.

[Disco Muppet]

Don't be so quick to dismiss the value of your study of history.

It may be a large part of the reason why you understand the world you live in. It helps a lot to really understand the way things are if you know something of how things came to be that way.


I'm not saying I regret studying it, and I've certainly found it useful at trivia down the pub! :p
I just think what I'm interested in now and potentially as a career, Some more practical subjects might have been metalwork or economics.

[clubagreenie]

I hear that, being now on the wrong side of 40 and trying to get a job when you're no longer considered fit for your qualification. 100+ job apps in six months for naught.

Some different study may have seen different outcomes. Who knows.

[schuy1]

AHH, Master Muppet, If there is but 1 item of learning you remember from your history lessons let it be this "Those that neglect history are doomed to repeat it!!"
Sadly men are very prone to think their thoughts are all new and this is the new way, but in history there is nothing new, it has all been done before, maybe in a different language and country, hidden in other meanings but always the same in the end. always the old "Power corrupts, Total power corrupts totally!!"
Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of men? to quote The Shadow!
Cheers Scott

[mikehzz]

Well I thought the saying was that the only thing history teaches us is that history teaches us nothing? For example, how many more countries has the US got to try and liberate and convert before they realize it's a bad idea?

[Gerokent]

That's the type of slogan that Americans spout to justify their God given right to carry shootin' irons.



That's the slogan that built Australia. Peter Lawler, Aussie ledgend, the southern cross, ureka stockade and all that.

[newhue]

Using this as an example, not wanting to start that particular debate again.
Raises the point though, ethics and morals is entirely subjective.
To some people, same sex couples raising children is a huge issue. To others, it's not an issue at all
So yes, Schools should teach useful things. The only useful subjects I did were PDHPE and maths, not really getting that much use out of Studies of Religion or four units of history.
But ethics and morals should, IMHO, be something for the parents to deal with, as well as the child themselves when they become an adult.
Consider, it used to be that we got all our ethics and morals from religion.
Now, we have lots of people (rightly so IMHO) saying that in state funded schools, pushing a particular religious view point, and in turn the associated values, on children is wrong.
School should be about providing education and skills for becoming a productive, non dole bludging, participating member of society.
How to be a decent human being is entirely subjective, and applying a blanket type approach just doesn't work.

DM, I don't know much. But boys need dads. Good ones. Ones that pay attention, and support them. Encourage them to be brave and try, but also lay down firm boundaries. Boys need dads that wrestle with them, and show them strength does not mean aggression. Boys need calm inspirational dads who are good role models. Lesbians as an example can't do this. I'd say most gay men can't do this either. Girls also need dads. Ones that respect and listen to them. Ones that put them on pedestals, wrap them up tight and make them feel safe. Dads that can fix anything. Other girls can comfort them, and be their friends, but girls need dads to pay attention, otherwise they look for attention in all the wrong places as they get older.

yes ethics and values should be a family responsibility, just society has become so liberal and lazy, preferring a quick fix with minimal effort. Anything goes. I'm sure there are very good gay, lesbian, and single parents out there doing an awesome job. But there are probably more that are not doing so well.

Again I don't know much, but I think with kids you get back what you put in. Then they become adults and the **** really starts to hit the fan.

[SuperMono]

Australians seem to love stupid laws, why should this set be any different.

Not too many laws I know of that will stop the worst of worlds A-holes from doing something. But the rest of us get caught up in the flak that goes with it.

As for our spy masters keeping files on us, mine must run to several volumes by now according to my wife.

[newhue]

Interesting debate but what it have to do with the risk to loose our freedom and that the police act with the existing laws :confused:

mate I'm sorry for taking your thread off course. I believe however what I have been banging on about with kids going off track, is related directly to why the government has made the drastic new laws against societies most troubled.