Children and Arson.

[Ausfree]

I am just wondering, in this difficult time with fires burning (some out of control) what responsibility should under age children take for lighting fires that cause major damage and disruption.;)
I was watching the local news tonight about the appearance in court of three minors who (alleged) lit the Heatherbrae fires that caused death to wildlife (including 30 Koala Bears and counting), closure of Newcastle Airport evacuation of residents, including a retirement village and destruction of businesses and houses.:mad:

I can understand a child getting into mischief and accidently playing with matches and starting a fire but what I saw on the news tonight has made me angry.:mad:

Three juveniles have been arrested over the Heatherbrae fires, one held in custody and the others released in care. One came out of the Children's Court with a towel over his head and continuously gave "the finger" to the camera man.:mad:
Even as the car he was in drove off, he was "giving the finger" through the back window. This kid does not get it at all, there seemed to be no sign of regret.:mad:

What do other people think here, should parents be held accountable for this sort of behaviour.

POLL: Boys charged over Heatherbrae inferno | The Maitland Mercury (http://www.maitlandmercury.com.au/story/1855431/poll-boys-charged-over-heatherbrae-inferno/?cs=171)

I see that a 16 year old arrested for arson for lighting a fire in Glenrock National Park and burning out a large area (this happened about 3 weeks ago) has a record of assault, theft and shop lifting. I think young people with this sort of track record should be dealt with more serverley than the kid who makes an honest mistake.

Opinions anybody?????

[Disco Muppet]

There exists the notion of Doli Incapax, which states that a child is incapable of committing a crime.
The reasoning for such is that due to their age, they're unable to form the necessary mens rea or 'guilty mind', the idea of intent.
So if they're under 10, it's concrete.
Between 10 and 14 it can be refuted if they knew that the act was seriously wrong.
14 to 18 I'm just assuming they can be charged as a minor.
So if they're over 10 and have a history, throw the book at the little bastards I say.

[Roverlord off road spares]

The problem we have is there are too many do gooders that come out and give explanations of how the kids came from broken homes, and this and that and blame society.
It's about time some one is held accountable. If a kid starts off with prior convictions for assault, theft, blah blah blah, they fall into the risk group of becoming career criminals.

Sending them to gaol puts them in with other no goods where they pick up more skills and a hate for society.

Don't punish them and they think they can get away with everything, what do you do, they are already a burden on society.

As for the finger giving the bird just shows that that kid has a big problem that's going to get worse. If he was in hand cuffs he couldn't do it. Pull the towell of the heads and expose them.

Many peoples lives have been destroyed because of their actions, and the do-gooders need to realise this.

[Eevo]

bring back capital punishment i say

[sheerluck]

.......So if they're over 10 and have a history, throw a grenade at the little bastards I say.

There, I fixed it for you. ;)

[bee utey]

Give them all a nice helicopter ride...strapped to the outside of the fire bucket.

[Disco Muppet]

There, I fixed it for you. ;)

Waste of a grenade :p

[slug_burner]

terminate,

can't see an Einstein like that ever returning enough value to society to do any thing else with the little @!#%(@%

[d@rk51d3]

Step one, snap that offending finger right off..........

[Saitch]

I'm shocked at these responses.
Don't you realise that it's not these kiddies fault that they're arseholes.
Just ask the money grabbing defence lawyers.
The only way to rehabilitate these poor unfortunates is with sending them to the colonies i.e. Christmas Island or our Northern neighbours very effective method of the Rattan across the buttocks.
Probably end up with the same pain one way or the other!

[clubagreenie]

terminate, with extreme prejudice.


Fixed.

[Landy Smurf]

I have heard a bit in the news about what or how they are going to charge them.
It is really difficult but with the amount of damage to life of animals and could be human and financial damage , something has to be done.

[Roverlord off road spares]

I'm shocked at these responses.
Don't you realise that it's not these kiddies fault that they're arseholes.
Just ask the money grabbing defence lawyers.
The only way to rehabilitate these poor unfortunates is with sending them to the colonies i.e. Christmas Island or our Northern neighbours very effective method of the Rattan across the buttocks.
Probably end up with the same pain one way or the other!
are you for real, didn't you know that chastising them will have you up for assault. The smacking of little darlings was abolished when the do gooders came along and said it traumatizes the little darlings and you could also be up for assault.
I think getting the cuts in school got banned in the late 60s, in the 2000's the kids were told their legal rights that they could not be spanked. Inflicting pain was stopped and kids attitudes changed also. I often see kids verbally ab using their parents. If it was my kid I reckon a good kick up the backside would soon stop that behaviour, but I would be breaking the law.
The kids these days are maturing earlier, so the new 18 is 15 even 14 in some cases. So they know what they are doing. The difference between right and wrong is not that hard to figure out.There should be no excuses.

I had a gun pointed at my partner and me one night and a shot fired in our direction as we drove past a tram stop, My partner nearly returned fire but we realised it was a starter pistol. That kid could have been shot as a gun looks like a gun in the dark. The juvenile was also arrested the week prior for walking down a crowded street with nun chuckas, swinging them dangerously at people.
Come our day in court it was brought to the court's attention that he came from a broken family and he volunteered as a meals on wheels for the elderly and so on and on.
His lawyer made this joker out a valued community citizen, and a good kid
He was given a good behavior bond.
We could have been at a coronial inquest instead of the magistrate's court hearing

[Basil135]

If these kids had a "problem" then why did they wait until the conditions were the worst they could be, before "acting out" their little arson tendancies?

A true pryromaniac would light a fire at home, or in a rubbish bin and be fixated with with it. They NEED the fire to feel "right" or "normal" in their own mind. This is a mental condition that may, or may not, be able to be successfully treated.

What these kids have done, is wilful & deliberate ARSON. I have no time for them.

Alas, capital punishment is no longer available to us, however, I wonder if shackling them to a tree in the direct path of a fire front would be frowned upon???

Either that, or deport them about 500 kms south of Tasmania.... :nazilock:

[Eevo]

Don't you realise that it's not these kiddies fault that they're arseholes.


its not their fault, but it doesn't change that they are arseholes.

[CapableCate]

I am just wondering, in this difficult time with fires burning (some out of control) what responsibility should under age children take for lighting fires that cause major damage and disruption.;)
I was watching the local news tonight about the appearance in court of three minors who (alleged) lit the Heatherbrae fires that caused death to wildlife (including 30 Koala Bears and counting), closure of Newcastle Airport evacuation of residents, including a retirement village and destruction of businesses and houses.:mad:

I can understand a child getting into mischief and accidently playing with matches and starting a fire but what I saw on the news tonight has made me angry.:mad:

Three juveniles have been arrested over the Heatherbrae fires, one held in custody and the others released in care. One came out of the Children's Court with a towel over his head and continuously gave "the finger" to the camera man.:mad:
Even as the car he was in drove off, he was "giving the finger" through the back window. This kid does not get it at all, there seemed to be no sign of regret.:mad:

What do other people think here, should parents be held accountable for this sort of behaviour.

POLL: Boys charged over Heatherbrae inferno | The Maitland Mercury (http://www.maitlandmercury.com.au/story/1855431/poll-boys-charged-over-heatherbrae-inferno/?cs=171)

I see that a 16 year old arrested for arson for lighting a fire in Glenrock National Park and burning out a large area (this happened about 3 weeks ago) has a record of assault, theft and shop lifting. I think young people with this sort of track record should be dealt with more serverley than the kid who makes an honest mistake.

Opinions anybody?????

Tasmania finally tightened up their arson laws & penalties, closely followed by Victoria in time for our tragic Black Saturday fires. Don't know what other States & Territories are doing, but if nothing, need to work fast, or arsonists, adults & children alike, will continue to get away with this unbelievably dangerous & irresponsible act.

You've really got to wonder what kind of child commits this type of offence, and it is hard not to assume full responsibility for them, falls on their parents, as if raised with any sense of decency or respect for other life, human & animal, and peoples property, they would surely have had second thoughts. But then again, sadly, these kids probably haven't been raised with respect for themselves, let alone others, or their property.

[33chinacars]

Just give them to the firies that are risking their lives to put these fires out. Sure they will know what to do with them :wasntme::censored:

[George130]

One problem with blaming the parents is the system. If they are 14 then the system will not help you as they are an adult unless it is a criminal offence where the become a minor.

Yes bad parents make bad kids but try dealing with DOCS when you want help because you are caring for a teen child.

Repeat offenders should be tried as an adult, most of these kids have probably been doing it for years before they were caught. And yes the do gooders have destroyed society and are still trying to ruin what's left.

[Chucaro]

Shame on you people with appalling comments or solution to rehabilitate these poor souls ( souls ? nah)
I will give them a second chance and send them naked and bare foot to walk on the coals rescue wildlife at the hot spots.
People like them deserve compassion.
If their parents are guilty of forming their kids like that the desexing them.

[Red County]

Give the little darlings shovels so they can spend the next few weeks digging holes and filling with burnt/ injured livestock and wildlife. They may need some appropriate OH&S instruction on the safe use of digging equipment and working around excavations, say about a week or so giving the carcases time to ripen nicely. The hard work, sights and aroma of working in fire affected area's will give them plenty of time to reflect on what they have done.
Once completed they could move on to other reflection activities like fencing, re-vegetation etc.

[clubagreenie]

I'll put my hand up to run a program like that. They'd turn foetal and get cold sweats at the sight of a box of matches when finished.

[Eevo]

Teens arrested for stealing charity box
Two boys, aged 13 and 15, have been arrested for allegedly stealing a charity collection box from a Springwood cafe on Monday.
The 13-year-old was charged with shoplifting and breach of bail. He was refused bail to appear in children's court today.
The 15-year-old boy was charged with possession of a prohibited drug and larceny. He was granted conditional bail to appear in a children's court on Monday, December 9.
The police say they are confident of identifying further offenders.

[Chucaro]

Teens arrested for stealing charity box
Two boys, aged 13 and 15, have been arrested for allegedly stealing a charity collection box from a Springwood cafe on Monday.
The 13-year-old was charged with shoplifting and breach of bail. He was refused bail to appear in children's court today.
The 15-year-old boy was charged with possession of a prohibited drug and larceny. He was granted conditional bail to appear in a children's court on Monday, December 9.
The police say they are confident of identifying further offenders.

Were are the parents of these rejected genes ? :mad:
Cannot even supervise the 13 years old bail order and conditions?
That old idea to moving water by building a canal from northern Australia to southern Australia can have a future with free labour using these individuals :angel:

[Hardynice]

There's an old saying "do the crime, do the time".
Now while all the do gooders out there will say "there there, their only children and children get into mischief", I agree, kids will play up.
BUT if the child does it on purpose then they should have their hands held in a fire till they are scarred for life to remind them that their act was "deliberate", not just an accident, not just mischief but and act that was "premeditated".
The laws in this country are pathetic, the so called judges that are charged with handing out sentences to fit the crime do nothing of the sort.

[clubagreenie]

Mischief does not kill or destroy property. You CANNOT tell me that someone 11 years old can't correlate lighting a mattress on fire in a paddock in these conditions with starting something larger.

I have two 8years old girls who both know what it would mean, and one of which said "what sort of tool does that?" I think that's enough said.

[Ausfree]

Interesting responses!!!:D I see the 11 year old arrested for starting the Heatherbrae fires is well known to police, so he is a career criminal already at that tender age!!!:mad:

Yes, the courts need to toughen up on juvenile career arsonists!!:mad: Well, any arsonist, really.

[VladTepes]

I think the politicians need to legally redefine the definition of a child. A 16 year old arsonist is not in my view a "child"

These so called "children" need a kick in the head

[Chucaro]

I think the politicians need to legally redefine the definition of a child. A 16 year old arsonist is not in my view a "child"

These so called "children" need a kick in the head

Long ago a Dr told me that the best way is to have a look if there is hair in some private parts of the body, if there is hair then is an adult :eek:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Where are the parents of these rejected genes ? :mad:
...:angel:IIRC one parent is in gaol for burglary and the other in drug rehab as a condition of their conviction for social security fraud.

Just kidding, I don't know anything about their parents, but the scenario wouldn't surprise me.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I think the politicians need to legally redefine the definition of a child. A 16 year old arsonist is not in my view a "child"

These so called "children" need a kick in the headDefinition: child, except in Chapter 13, means a person who is under the age of 16 years" Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998 No 157 (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/act+157+1998+whole+0+N'tocnav=y) so up to the minute beore their 16th birthday they're a legal child On their 16th birthday they're a young person or young adult.

They can be responsible for their own healthcare and refuse permission for their parents to be informed about any treatment. they can get married so long as they are heterosexual and they should therefore be able to accept adult punishment for their crimes.

[Fatso]

Kids obey the law in Singapore !!!!!! Big stick or :nazilock: if they dont . Six of the best got my attention at school . :o .

[Ean Austral]

Unfortunately its not as simple as the parents knowing where thier children are 24-7. I am sure my mum was convinced I was at school every day she sent me.:wasntme:.. the flogging I got when she found out I wasnt was far worse than what the cop said when he was bringing me home in the cop car.. went to school every day after that.. you know the old saying couldnt sit down for a week... I DO :(:(:(

Maybe a trip to the burns ward, or A&E when a burns victim comes in and make them sit and watch what that person is going thru, and the smell of burnt flesh, maybe some of these kids might wake up to what they are doing.

As far as the 12 or so yr old career criminals, well I cant write my response , it may offend some, but a few replys have come close.

Cheers Ean

[MR LR]

IMO any arsonist should be allowed to be shot on sight... They don't deserve to steal any more oxygen from the world! Scum.

[olbod]

Seriously I think all these off the rails kids could be put to good use and they are increasing in number every year. I mean why waste the resource.
Any first offence, A stern warning.
Any second offence, off they go to a holding yard and stored for organ transplant donation untill recipients are identified.
Everyone benifits.

[MR LR]

I heard on the radio that two 8 year old boys are the latest! 8!

[UncleHo]

At that age I would seriously hold the parents culpable,older than 10 then give them community service orders.and not just weeding gardens.

The management and I are involved with a Mission Aust. After school homework club,in 1 place the kids have parents,(Feral's) and in another they are in care,and a better behaved lot you could not wish for.

But I'm surprised at 9 year old's having anger management problems,that should have been resolved by age 3.

[Chucaro]

I heard on the radio that two 8 year old boys are the latest! 8!

I would put kids 8 years old or less in a different category, chances are they are not malicious at that age and only experimenting with fire.
Before we make a comment about them lets wait and see.

[dullbird]

There exists the notion of Doli Incapax, which states that a child is incapable of committing a crime.
The reasoning for such is that due to their age, they're unable to form the necessary mens rea or 'guilty mind', the idea of intent.
So if they're under 10, it's concrete.
Between 10 and 14 it can be refuted if they knew that the act was seriously wrong. 14 to 18 I'm just assuming they can be charged as a minor.
So if they're over 10 and have a history, throw the book at the little bastards I say.

This is very true

However there is law which enables the parents to be charged on behalf of their children and their actions..up until I think they are of an age where they can legally be charged themselves.

I wonder what the children would think if their parents were thrown in jail due to their actions;)

[Chucaro]

This is very true

However there is law which enables the parents to be charged on behalf of their children and their actions..up until I think they are of an age where they can legally be charged themselves.

I wonder what the children would think if their parents were thrown in jail due to their actions;)

Correct me if I am wrong but I think that there are laws introduced in the last 20 years or so that are limiting the power of the parents (and school teachers)in how to discipline the children.

[clubagreenie]

Correlate that to juvenile crime figures increasing in the last twenty years.

[George130]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think that there are laws introduced in the last 20 years or so that are limiting the power of the parents (and school teachers)in how to discipline the children.

Unfortunatly yes there are.

[Bushie]

Couple of things come to mind with this thread,

1 It's not arson ! there has to be intent to cause deliberate, malicious, property damage using fire for it to actually be arson.

2. with kids 8, 10 around that age experimenting with fire is actually a normal developmental phase, most children will do it to some extent. Some will develop a fascination with fire, some will go on to become serial fire lighters.

So young kids are unlikely to have much appreciation of the consequences of their 'fire lighting'. Generally a 'stern' talking to by police/parents/firefighters fixes most of them.

I wonder whether we are starting as well to see the consequences of 'disaster fatigue' where the media bombards 24/7 with footage of disaster events that people start to become immune to what is happening.

The 'traditional' arsonist is a young male (20s) that has low esteem, low achievement, but higher than average intelligence, poor social involvement and irregular employment. From my (limited) involvement in fire investigation that seems to fit.


Martyn

[frantic]

Just to throw a question in, now that its been proven the blue mountains fire's where started by ADF who is going to pay for the houses burnt by that fire and the potential/actual? lives lost? Will it be the private who either fired the shot or didn't put out the campfire, or their commanders who ordered them there in those conditions?
2 versions, One is that it was a campfire not put out correctly, the other is that it was an explosive device that started the fire they couldn't control.Confirmed: army exercise started blaze in Blue Mountains | smh.com.au (http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/confirmed-army-exercise-started-blaze-in-blue-mountains-20131023-2w1vt.html)

[jx2mad]

Deport them to England for the term of their natural life. It is too cold and wet there:) for them to start anything:o:o

[Chucaro]

Deport them to England for the term of their natural life. It is too cold and wet there:) for them to start anything:o:o

If they cannot deported because they are Australians then Macquarie Island is an option with the nice "tropical" weather there :p

[Ausfree]

Couple of things come to mind with this thread,

1 It's not arson ! there has to be intent to cause deliberate, malicious, property damage using fire for it to actually be arson.

2. with kids 8, 10 around that age experimenting with fire is actually a normal developmental phase, most children will do it to some extent. Some will develop a fascination with fire, some will go on to become serial fire lighters.

So young kids are unlikely to have much appreciation of the consequences of their 'fire lighting'. Generally a 'stern' talking to by police/parents/firefighters fixes most of them.

I wonder whether we are starting as well to see the consequences of 'disaster fatigue' where the media bombards 24/7 with footage of disaster events that people start to become immune to what is happening.

The 'traditional' arsonist is a young male (20s) that has low esteem, low achievement, but higher than average intelligence, poor social involvement and irregular employment. From my (limited) involvement in fire investigation that seems to fit.


Martyn I agree with what you say and if you go back to my OP I state that kids can get into mischief and innocently cause problems through "experimenting" with matches and causing a fire. We were all kids once.:D
However, when a minor has a track record with police for bad behaviour, I think it is a different and more serious matter. These minors have behavioural problems and should be stopped before they do something that gets somebody killed. The argument they may use about having a bad homelife or some other crap does not cut it. They have to be made responsible for their actions and you can't convince me an 11 year old and particularly a 16 year old does not know right from wrong.;)
My thoughts anyhow.:D

[slug_burner]

If they cannot deported because they are Australians then Macquarie Island is an option with the nice "tropical" weather there :p

Tassie is cold enough.

Maybe we could send them there to stimulate the Tasmanian economy with the insurance payouts you could get a building led recovery.

[Bushie]

I agree with what you say and if you go back to my OP I state that kids can get into mischief and innocently cause problems through "experimenting" with matches and causing a fire. We were all kids once.:D
However, when a minor has a track record with police for bad behaviour, I think it is a different and more serious matter. These minors have behavioural problems and should be stopped before they do something that gets somebody killed. The argument they may use about having a bad homelife or some other crap does not cut it. They have to be made responsible for their actions and you can't convince me an 11 year old and particularly a 16 year old does not know right from wrong.;)
My thoughts anyhow.:D


Agree - my comment was mainly about young kids 8-10yo. A 16yo should know the consequences and as such deserves the full weight of the law.


Martyn

[dullbird]

Just to throw a question in, now that its been proven the blue mountains fire's where started by ADF who is going to pay for the houses burnt by that fire and the potential/actual? lives lost? Will it be the private who either fired the shot or didn't put out the campfire, or their commanders who ordered them there in those conditions?
2 versions, One is that it was a campfire not put out correctly, the other is that it was an explosive device that started the fire they couldn't control.Confirmed: army exercise started blaze in Blue Mountains | smh.com.au (http://m.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/confirmed-army-exercise-started-blaze-in-blue-mountains-20131023-2w1vt.html)

Ok mmm maybe I got this wrong but the houses lost and damaged in very large numbers was the Springwood fire Blue Mountains,

the ADF started the state mine fire...which largely burnt through a lot of National park....and only threatened townships like Bilpin etc.

Although saying that I'm not sure whether springwood was a result of the state mine fire

[Bushie]

Majority of losses were at the Winmalee fire, there were however property losses on the Mt Yorke fire and on the State Mine fire.

Martyn

[dullbird]

I know there were property loss on state mine but no where near the numbers of winmalee (which is referred to as links rd spiringwood, blue mountains fire)

Edit: actually looking back at the major fire updates according to that there were no property loss on state mine and very minimal on Mt York and Mt Victiria fire

The point I'm trying to make is I heard the same thing on the telly being said about how are the ADF going to compensate all those people that lost their homes.

But it wasn't the state mine fire that burnt down their homes and state mine was the one they started.
Unless of course state mine started the links Rd fire. Which I didn't think it did.

[CraigE]

I agree in principal that pretty much 10 and up know better and mostly even younger and they should be held accountable. I am no do gooder at all, but often there is a lot more to these issues and may not be black and white.
A lot would depend on the intent initially, Are they kids just lighting a small fire or is it deliberate arson?. I think most of us as kids and older have lit fires, not intending them to get out of hand or categorized as arson. Does that make us any less responsible or culpable?
Should those in the defence force that started one of these fires with live fire training be charged?
Controlled burns that get out of control, as these are deliberate actions?
And how is it relevant if one fire burns homes and injures and kills or injures? The intent or action is still there and is more luck or bad luck what it actually affects.
Just a bit of food for thought.

[Bushie]

I know there were property loss on state mine but no where near the numbers of winmalee (which is referred to as links rd spiringwood, blue mountains fire)

Edit: actually looking back at the major fire updates according to that there were no property loss on state mine and very minimal on Mt York and Mt Victiria fire

The point I'm trying to make is I heard the same thing on the telly being said about how are the ADF going to compensate all those people that lost their homes.

But it wasn't the state mine fire that burnt down their homes and state mine was the one they started.
Unless of course state mine started the links Rd fire. Which I didn't think it did.

Major fire updates doesn't list damage for State Mine, (not sure why) it doesn't however say there was no damage.

It does contain the following statement
Impact Assessment Teams have been undertaking assessments of fire damaged property in the Blue Mountains, checking for hazards such as asbestos and other contaminants, the structural integrity of buildings and trees, and other safety issues. .

Zig Zag railway would probably argue that they have sustained losses.

I would think that ADF will take responsibility for the fire (they have just about done that), and pay compensation to those that have suffered losses. Failing that I would imagine there will be a civil case for compensation.

A bit of video
Lithgow on Fire - YouTube


Martyn

[dullbird]

Martyn I'm not disagree'ing with you!!!

The fact is on the telly the other night they were saying ALL damage in the blue mountains and there was heavy suggestion to the 300 lost and damaged houses, these are the ones I'm referring too, not the ones that may of actually sustained damage due to state mine.

State mine did largely burn through NP though I'm sure hence why it was so hard to get under control, and why it move so quickly.

I'm not trying to preach to you I know you are a fiery and no doubt largely involved.

I'm just pointing out to frantic's comment that I don't believe ADF can be held responsible for house losses that occurred outside the state mine fire. It was I feel quite badly reported in the news because we all want someone to blame.

Either way we are doing a great job of going off track. Considering the initial post :D

Ps i have seen the drone YouTube clip that's its third repost :)

[Eevo]

i dont think the DD should pay compensation. it wasnt a fire ban day.

[Chucaro]

i dont think the DD should pay compensation. it wasnt a fire ban day.

For what I have heard the demolition took place in a site that if there was a fire it will be impossible to put of because the danger of so many explosives in the land.
I just wonder, if the information was true, if it is sensible or responsible to do these type of work were it will be impossible to stop a possible fire.........
Why it is that when farmers have to do a burn they have to ask permission to the local fire brigade and also have the necessary provision to stop fire spreading and the DF not?
It is not that a case of negligence?

[clubagreenie]

Yes but failure to have a fire management plan in place, lack of on site mitigation etc etc.

Lou, State Mine burnt north into Wollemi until it reached the Bungleboori Ck, fortunately it didn't cross further. There's only one road through there and it hasn't been driven for a long time and it doesn't pass anywhere near the fire front. Plus there's more fires in the northern side of the Wollemi near Main Ck and Howes Swamp and another 25000Ha at Hungerford Ck. I don't know how close it came to the pines but there'd be some nervous NP people out there.

All up almost 90,000 hectares in the Wollemi alone.

[Eevo]

I just wonder, if the information was true, if it is sensible or responsible to do these type of work were it will be impossible to stop a possible fire.........

DD asked to chop down the trees but the greenies/council wouldn't let them.

[Chucaro]

DD asked to chop down the trees but the greenies/council wouldn't let them.

Well, then simple, if it is not suitable for that kind of work do not do it. ;)

[Eevo]

Well, then simple, if it is not suitable for that kind of work do not do it. ;)

our defence force is now unable to complete its job.

[clubagreenie]

There's always Woomera

[vnx205]

... ... ...
I'm just pointing out to frantic's comment that I don't believe ADF can be held responsible for house losses that occurred outside the state mine fire. It was I feel quite badly reported in the news because we all want someone to blame.
.. .... ...


I saw several interviews with the Fire Commissioner and with some of the firefighters where every single one of the journalists' questions was aimed at getting someone to say that we should all be jumping up and down about what a dreadful thing the Defence Force had done and to say that they should be held accountable.

None of the interviewees were bullied into giving the sort of answer the journalists wanted.

[jx2mad]

As a member of the local brigade in Sydney I have been to Holsworthy army base to chase a fire. This was on the live fire range and the Army guys wouldn't go in

[clubagreenie]

I've got a friend who's in the Army Firies in Darwin. If there's a fire their instructions are to call the Fire Brigade.

[Eevo]

There's always Woomera

Did you miss the bushfires there a few years ago?

[clubagreenie]

Apparently so,

[Bushie]

DD asked to chop down the trees but the greenies/council wouldn't let them.
Strange, as they don't need permission from the council - Local government doesn't have much say over federal land much less defence land. DD do have some fairly stringent environmental laws/regs of their own though.


As a member of the local brigade in Sydney I have been to Holsworthy army base to chase a fire. This was on the live fire range and the Army guys wouldn't go in
There is no fire service at Holsworthy now, (been gone probably 15years) range control is now largely in the hands of civilian contractors, that have neither the capacity or equipment to fight large fires. Significant sections of Holsworthy are 'no go' areas due to UXO, most of the range is 1st order saturation, with only areas around the perimeter being regarded as 'safe'. I'd say the area you were in was safe, or you were given some VERY poor advice, or possibly your OIC ignored some good advice :mad:.


I've got a friend who's in the Army Firies in Darwin. If there's a fire their instructions are to call the Fire Brigade.
That's due to the MOUs with civil fire services to manage fire on bases, ADF firies have been reduced to only deliver their core roles, which is to provide fire protection during operations, field exercises etc.
FRNSW and NSWRFS have MOUs for fire protection/firefighting within the Liverpool Training Area (LTA/Holsworthy)
We hold regular familiarisation tours with defence through LTA, fight plenty of fires within the range, as well as undertaking hazard reduction in cooperation with defence contractors.
Have been in and out of the range since the mid 70s with fire services, although it wasn't always as strictly controlled as now.

Martyn

[clubagreenie]

or you were given some VERY poor advice, or possibly your OIC ignored some good advice :angry:.

Probably a case of ignored poor advice and thought they knew better (how often is that the case).

I was down there a number of years ago training some guys and we were directed to use an area that was away from live training that was underway. The directions we were given drove us directly into the backside of the live area. Shook a few people up coming over a hill and being under fire. Fortunately the OIC at the other end shutdown immediately and someone got a talking to when they saw the map.

[jx2mad]

Hi Bushie. We were taken into the area by an army guy and were told to stay on the dirt path, not to touch anything that looked suspicious. He picked up a couple of bullet cases and threw them into a small fire near the track when no-one was looking. I saw him do it so was not surprised a short while later when these went off, scaring the other guys. Jim

[Didge]

put em up the trees in place of the koalas; little pieces of excrement. Yep, they ought to be flogged! and if their parents go out in defence of their actions, so should they :mad:

[DiscoMick]

Kids need to learn that actions have consequences. That's true at any age. The consequences have to be appropriate to the actions. With a 16 year old repeat offender those consequences should be getting serious.
The problem is the judge knows sending the kid to prison is unlikely to change his behaviour and may reinforce it, but what other choice is there?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

he needs home detention, ankle bracelet, must only go out accompanied by an approved adult and the school to have perimeter monitoring if he tries to leave.

Would be worse than gaol and wouldn't have the contact with other professional arsonists and crims.

[clubagreenie]

Jail for a week, handcuffed to the biggest mother in there. Should straighten them out. If not, make it two.

[Eevo]

Jail for a week, handcuffed to the biggest mother in there. Should straighten them out. If not, make it two.

two weeks or the two biggest mothers?

[clubagreenie]

Both, that's sentencing squared.