why do wheel bearings come loose?

[uninformed]

hey all,

If wheel bearings have been installed and adjusted correctly, run in good oil ,changed at proper intervals, running stock rims and tyres, why would they work loose and have play in them?

[weeds]

They shouldn't.......I have never had one come loose........buggered if I can work out how the be installed incorrectly. I reckon my defer bearings are at 160k, pretty sure I replace them all when I purchased it, the ones I took out were fine...

[uninformed]

yep, and as far as I know these are original and at 330k. I just did the whole rear axle and replaced out of good measure. The rears looked fine and probably good for another 300k. These are the fronts and I had planned on doing an overhaul asap prior to finding these loose fronts today. Pad knock back was the first sign, and a slight clunk or knock mid corner with weight transfer (that could be unrelated) but these lead me to jack my 110 up this arvo and there is significant play in the bearings (definitely not swivel bearings)

I have in the last 6 months change my rims back to stock 6.5 130 rims and constantly rub the radius arms at low speed in car parks etc because my steering stop bolts are broken......

[loanrangie]

I find that the lock washers just dont hold well enough so after a while let the nuts unwind a little, i just adjusted mine 2 weeks ago after changing wheels and noticed how much play there was.

[carlosbeldia]

Same problem here, mine's have to be tightened every 2 or 3 months. Bearings are Timken, grease is Mobil NLGI 02 (non EP), nuts are genuine. I've been thinking in going to the old system as a lot of people have done due to this "inconvinient".

[Bundalene]

I had the same problem with our daughters 110, I seemed to be forever tightening wheel bearings. The tracks they use are pretty rough though.


I bit the bullet and replaced the lot - no more problems.



Erich

[Silverone]

hey all,

If wheel bearings have been installed and adjusted correctly, run in good oil ,changed at proper intervals, running stock rims and tyres, why would they work loose and have play in them?

For what its worth I have found on more than one occasion the bearings start spinning a little bit on the hub, ( the outer one more so) which is where the apparent wear was coming from. You could do the bearings up firm to test but still feel play when you heaved back & forth on the wheel as the bearing centre moved on the hub. Hope Ive explained that clearly.

[PhilipA]

Any bearing will wear over time and the cumulative wear on the cones and rollers and maybe the end washers if the inner track moves causes them to get loose.

This is the natural state of things but should be quite slow and lasting hundreds of thousands of Ks before replacement is needed. Why would check and repack be in service schedules otherwise?
Of course add a bit of dirt and or water and the scenario changes to much quicker.
Regards Philip A

[Bush65]

For what its worth I have found on more than one occasion the bearings start spinning a little bit on the hub, ( the outer one more so) which is where the apparent wear was coming from. You could do the bearings up firm to test but still feel play when you heaved back & forth on the wheel as the bearing centre moved on the hub. Hope Ive explained that clearly.
Pretty sure I know what you mean, but the one and only thing is, I suspect your terminology is incorrect where you referred to a hub.

The hub is the outer part that the wheel bolts to, and revolves with the wheel.

The cup (the correct name for the outer race of taper roller bearings) for both the inner and outer wheel bearings is pressed into the hub.

The stub axle (often called the spindle) is the fixed part that bolts to the axle housing in the case of the rear axle or the swivel housing if a front axle.

The cone (the name for the inner race, rollers and cage assembly of taper roller bearings) for both the inner and outer wheel bearings is an easy push fit into the stub axle.

Normal practice with the design detail for the type of fit for the inner race and outer race of all rolling element bearings is to use a:

Tight fit for mounting the race that rotates in relation to the load. How tight a fit depends upon how heavy the loading. The reason for the tight fit is to prevent the race turning in the housing, or on the spindle.

Push fit for the race that doesn't rotate in relation to the load. In this case the race usually will not turn.

However for very heavy loads or for machinery designed to vibrate, e.g. vibrating screens, both races will have a tight fit. This is necessary to prevent either race turning in/on its seat.

Rolling element bearings need a small amount of internal clearance, otherwise they will overheat and fail. Except for taper roller bearings the internal clearance of most other bearings will be reduced too far if both the inner and outer races are a tight fit. To overcome this, in the special case where both races require a tight fit, the designer must specify special bearings that are made with greater than normal internal clearance.

When a bearing race creeps around in a hub, or on a spindle, it results in fretting corrosion, which has the appearance of red rust.

Considerable wear of the hub, or spindle, from severe rotation of a race that should not rotate relative to the load, indicates a problem, probably caused by incorrect assembly of the bearings (insufficient internal clearance) or lubrication failure. In the case of Land Rover wheel bearings, this could be from too high pre-load or lack of maintenance of greased bearings and seals. Many of us prefer to convert back to oil lubricated wheel bearings because of issues with greased wheel bearings.

Back to the original post, is this problem occurring with the later locking style for the bearing retainer nuts, or with the old style that uses 2 nuts with a tab washer between them?

I've never had a problem with the old style and have used them in place of the new style. I suspect loanrangie's post was referring to the new style.

[Silverone]

Pretty sure I know what you mean, but the one and only thing is, I suspect your terminology is incorrect where you referred to a hub.

The hub is the outer part that the wheel bolts to, and revolves with the wheel.

The cup (the correct name for the outer race of taper roller bearings) for both the inner and outer wheel bearings is pressed into the hub.

The stub axle (often called the spindle) is the fixed part that bolts to the axle housing in the case of the rear axle or the swivel housing if a front axle.

The cone (the name for the inner race, rollers and cage assembly of taper roller bearings) for both the inner and outer wheel bearings is an easy push fit into the stub axle.

Normal practice with the design detail for the type of fit for the inner race and outer race of all rolling element bearings is to use a:

Tight fit for mounting the race that rotates in relation to the load. How tight a fit depends upon how heavy the loading. The reason for the tight fit is to prevent the race turning in the housing, or on the spindle.

Push fit for the race that doesn't rotate in relation to the load. In this case the race usually will not turn.

However for very heavy loads or for machinery designed to vibrate, e.g. vibrating screens, both races will have a tight fit. This is necessary to prevent either race turning in/on its seat.

Rolling element bearings need a small amount of internal clearance, otherwise they will overheat and fail. Except for taper roller bearings the internal clearance of most other bearings will be reduced too far if both the inner and outer races are a tight fit. To overcome this, in the special case where both races require a tight fit, the designer must specify special bearings that are made with greater than normal internal clearance.

When a bearing race creeps around in a hub, or on a spindle, it results in fretting corrosion, which has the appearance of red rust.

Considerable wear of the hub, or spindle, from severe rotation of a race that should not rotate relative to the load, indicates a problem, probably caused by incorrect assembly of the bearings (insufficient internal clearance) or lubrication failure. In the case of Land Rover wheel bearings, this could be from too high pre-load or lack of maintenance of greased bearings and seals. Many of us prefer to convert back to oil lubricated wheel bearings because of issues with greased wheel bearings.

Back to the original post, is this problem occurring with the later locking style for the bearing retainer nuts, or with the old style that uses 2 nuts with a tab washer between them?

I've never had a problem with the old style and have used them in place of the new style. I suspect loanrangie's post was referring to the new style.

You are right, god knows what I was thinking when I said hub when what I was meaning the stub or spindle. However what I am indicating is that the tolerance between bearing & spindle is not firm enough (more so if heavy grease is used) Have cured the problem on some by using a moderate strength retaining compound. A bit of a act & procedure but it worked

[uninformed]

Both front and rear are the type with 2 nuts and a locking washer between them. Tabs are bent inward and outward to lock both nuts. There is a larger, thicker washer between the outer bearing and the first nut.

I just checked my rears which I did, say a month ago, new timken bearings, and they are showing signs of being loose also. The fronts I hadnt touced myself before. I was getting my truck service every 10k, but not for about 30k now. I do all the oils etc myself on date, and repairs as needed now (if I can). I followed LRs WSM procedure and not only used a good quality and tested torque wrench, but checked for play at the hub during assembly of the rears.

Do new bearings bed in and need adjusting x km after fitting?

Hopefully early next week I will be overhauling the front end and will also re tension the rear bearings.

[LowRanger]

Both front and rear are the type with 2 nuts and a locking washer between them. Tabs are bent inward and outward to lock both nuts. There is a larger, thicker washer between the outer bearing and the first nut.

I just checked my rears which I did, say a month ago, new timken bearings, and they are showing signs of being loose also. The fronts I hadnt touced myself before. I was getting my truck service every 10k, but not for about 30k now. I do all the oils etc myself on date, and repairs as needed now (if I can). I followed LRs WSM procedure and not only used a good quality and tested torque wrench, but checked for play at the hub during assembly of the rears.

Do new bearings bed in and need adjusting x km after fitting?

Hopefully early next week I will be overhauling the front end and will also re tension the rear bearings.

Serg

If the inner seal isn't seated deep enough in the hub,it can mean that when you do up the nuts that you haven't actually removed all the play,as the inner bearing doesn't butt fully against the flange on the hub,and after a short period,play becomes evident.When I first got my 110,I had some work done and while it was there,I said to them to replace the bearings as they were an unknown quality.A few months later I found play in the bearings,and tightening the nut up didn't eliminate it completely,further investigation revealed the inner seal wasn't seated far enough in the hub.I replaced the seals and located them correctly and no more problems.The seals were twin lipped seals as I run oil in everything.

[uninformed]

thanks Wayne,

For the rears, I use a MD driveflange and the spigot pushes it in X amount. Seals are RTC3511 Corteco. The front end was fully rebuilt with MD locker etc. The guy doing it has done more of these than I have had hot dinners so I would guess the seal depth be ok?

[schuy1]

I have had this problem of bearings on my '96 110 loosening in short order after setting as per the book. Sometimes in as little as 20000k!And I mean really loose! After much head (wood) scratching I have come to the conclusion the method used is incorrect. I have gone back to using the old Tighten,spin wheel and check, tighten, repeat until there is minimal play in bearing as per old school bearing setting procedure. No more problem service to service now :)
I run oil lubed hubs with Maxidrive drive members. I think the reason or part of it is for rough road use the official setting procedure leaves too much play in the bearing which allows it to fret under load which wears/vibrates the locking nuts. I do do a lot of rough road running.
Cheers Scott

[Bush65]

Both front and rear are the type with 2 nuts and a locking washer between them. Tabs are bent inward and outward to lock both nuts. There is a larger, thicker washer between the outer bearing and the first nut.

I just checked my rears which I did, say a month ago, new timken bearings, and they are showing signs of being loose also. The fronts I hadnt touced myself before. I was getting my truck service every 10k, but not for about 30k now. I do all the oils etc myself on date, and repairs as needed now (if I can). I followed LRs WSM procedure and not only used a good quality and tested torque wrench, but checked for play at the hub during assembly of the rears.

Do new bearings bed in and need adjusting x km after fitting?

Hopefully early next week I will be overhauling the front end and will also re tension the rear bearings.


I have had this problem of bearings on my '96 110 loosening in short order after setting as per the book. Sometimes in as little as 20000k!And I mean really loose! After much head (wood) scratching I have come to the conclusion the method used is incorrect. I have gone back to using the old Tighten,spin wheel and check, tighten, repeat until there is minimal play in bearing as per old school bearing setting procedure. No more problem service to service now :)
I run oil lubed hubs with Maxidrive drive members. I think the reason or part of it is for rough road use the official setting procedure leaves too much play in the bearing which allows it to fret under load which wears/vibrates the locking nuts. I do do a lot of rough road running.
Cheers Scott
Serg,
Rolling element bearings are precision manufactured such that they don't bed in or need to be adjusted after a bedding in period.

There could be a problem with your procedure. I don't know the procedure in the Land Rover workshop manual, so can't comment on it. My procedure is close to what Scott (schuy1) described, but I will just add the following:

(a) initially over tighten the bearings a little and note the position of the nut
(b) grab top and bottom of the tyre and rock it to ensure no play, then spin the wheel a few times before backing off the nut and repeating step (a)
(c) again rock and spin the tyre a few times, then back off the nut and tighten to just take out all play in the bearings
(d) spin the wheel to make sure they are not too tight, using my "feel" for what amount of drag is correct - note: be sure this drag is not due to the brakes.
(e) now realise that tightening the outer nut will further tighten the bearings, so back off the nut a little, fit the tab washer and outer nut (I don't use the later style nuts with grub screws)
(f) spin the wheel a few times then check that play in the bearings is minimal and not over tight
(g) if correct, bend over the tab washer to secure the nuts
Check the temperature around the hubs during or after the first trip after adjusting wheel bearing to check for "all ok".

[Davehoos]

assembling 6X6 axles the bearing was pressed into the hub, often using frozen bearing cones as the cones didnt want to seat in the hub.

the wheel bearing nuts then tensioned often overtight, the same people did the assembly and came up with a feel that stopped every vehicle needing adjustment a second time- after a 10KM drive .

you often find some rear wheel bearings needed adjustment.
don't remember ever doing front bearings.

I can remember the factory specs being odd.it required adjustment till there was freeplay [preload] that allowed movement measured with dial gauge at the tyre tread.
I think that might be ok if the axle was solid mounted in a test bench.

if you looked up most disc brake axle specs they require movement at the disc.

most of the wheel bearing I see on other vehicles the bearing has been spinning on the washer. even the truck bearings I do that need a puller to remove.

[uninformed]

Serg,
Rolling element bearings are precision manufactured such that they don't bed in or need to be adjusted after a bedding in period.

There could be a problem with your procedure. I don't know the procedure in the Land Rover workshop manual, so can't comment on it. My procedure is close to what Scott (schuy1) described, but I will just add the following:

(a) initially over tighten the bearings a little and note the position of the nut
(b) grab top and bottom of the tyre and rock it to ensure no play, then spin the wheel a few times before backing off the nut and repeating step (a)
(c) again rock and spin the tyre a few times, then back off the nut and tighten to just take out all play in the bearings
(d) spin the wheel to make sure they are not too tight, using my "feel" for what amount of drag is correct - note: be sure this drag is not due to the brakes.
(e) now realise that tightening the outer nut will further tighten the bearings, so back off the nut a little, fit the tab washer and outer nut (I don't use the later style nuts with grub screws)
(f) spin the wheel a few times then check that play in the bearings is minimal and not over tight
(g) if correct, bend over the tab washer to secure the nuts
Check the temperature around the hubs during or after the first trip after adjusting wheel bearing to check for "all ok".

LR procedure:

tighten first adjusting nut to 50nm, ensure hub is free to spin with NO bearing play.

Back off adjusting nut 90 degrees and re tighten to 10nm

Fit new lock washer and second lock nut. Tighten lock nut to 50nm.

That is the way I have done it previously and did so with the caliper removed. I did have the wheel/tyre off and only gave a quick check of the bearing play at caliper. Of coarse grabbing the tyre will provide a better feel if there is any. I did not check it once the tyre and wheel was on again.

When I did the fronts the other night (note I did not do the fronts originaly) I did check with the wheel/tyre on before I bent the tab over. I found that the 10nm setting was a little low, but it takes bugger all more to remove that play when the second lock nut is tightend to 50nm. I think I went to about 12nm on the adjuster nut.

how are you guys feeling for heat at the hub. Only place I can get my hands is on the driveflange, otherwise it means taking the wheel off.

I guess this is one of those things where experience and feel comes into play.

[JDNSW]

.......

how are you guys feeling for heat at the hub. Only place I can get my hands is on the driveflange, otherwise it means taking the wheel off.

.....

The hub is a good conductor of heat - the drive flange will be pretty much the same temperature as the hub. But be aware that a dragging brake will heat it up even quicker than a tight bearing!

When on a long trip I check hub temperatures at every stop.

John

[DeanoH]

hey all,

If wheel bearings have been installed and adjusted correctly, run in good oil ,changed at proper intervals, running stock rims and tyres, why would they work loose and have play in them?


I assume you're talking tapered roller bearings here ? These are by far the most commonly used especially in 4WD's.

It doesn't matter if you've got a Landy, Patrol, Landcruiser, Jeep or an Oka the wheel bearing setup is basically the same. There is an inner bearing comprising a race and a cup (pointing outwards) with an adjacent grease/oil seal and an identical outer bearing set up (without the seal) pointing inwards. The outer bearing is usually smaller in diameter than the inner bearing especially in non 4WD setups. The whole lot is retained by a thick thrust washer against the outer race which is 'keyed' into a slot machined in the stub axle so it cannot rotate. Next comes a large fine threaded nut which is tightened onto the thrust washer to set the wheel bearing adjustment. Next comes a soft multi tabbed washer which is also keyed into the stub axle so it cannot rotate. One tab is bent inward to lock the nut in position. Next comes an identical outer nut which is tightened onto the tab washer/inner nut to lock it into place. Finally a tab is bent outwards to stop the lock nut rotating and upsetting the whole setup.

All very basic and simple but there are a number of things that can (and do) go wrong which upsets the whole shooting match.

Here's a few, in no particular order.


1/. Greasing wheel bearings properly is a messy job and requires a certain technique. Basically with a palm full of you favourite High Temperature wheel bearing grease (normal lube grease will not do), hold the bearing upside down in the other hand and repeatedly 'bite' at the grease whilst rotating the bearing until it's fully 'packed'. Just smearing grease onto the rollers will not do and will lead to premature bearing wear/failure due to poor lubrication.

2/. Avoid using a cold chisel to tighten/loosen the big wheel bearing nuts. The resulting nicks in the edges of the nut can 'jag' the thrust washer forcing it to rotate thus damaging/destroying its keyway tab. This can result in a bearing coming loose or the nuts unwinding completely with catastrophic results. This can be particularly evident on the LHS of the vehicle as the wheel rotation is in the 'unwind' direction of the nut(s).
A nick in the side of the nut adjacent to the thrust washer can give a false 'feel' when tightening the inner nut as a small gap is actually left between the two surfaces. As the 'nick' wears or is flattened the bearing tension decreases and the bearing becomes loose.

3/. Make sure the inner bearing cup is firmly seated. A small gap here will result in a loose bearing later as the cup settles. Thou's matter. It needs to be firmly seated. This is not usually a problem when a cup is pressed in but when a cup is hammered in. What happens is that the cup is firmly seated when tapped in but 'bounces' when it hits the 'bottom' leaving a small gap. When fitting cups this way its best to use light blows at this stage. This is a very common problem.

4/. Always use new tab washers when re assembling. Old tab washers get bent and mangled and the hub keying tab gets worn which can allow it to rotate with the nuts affecting wheel bearing adjustment. Worn or damaged threads can also be a problem as nuts can be a bit 'wobbly' and not be biting correctly on the stub axle thread which, when coupled with the above can lead to loss of correct adjustment.


Replacing worn nuts and tab washers and using the correct hub nut spanner can make a big difference when servicing the wheel bearings, not only does it make the job easier, it is also more likely to stay in adjustment.

Deano :)

[Judo]

LR procedure:

tighten first adjusting nut to 50nm, ensure hub is free to spin with NO bearing play.

Back off adjusting nut 90 degrees and re tighten to 10nm

Fit new lock washer and second lock nut. Tighten lock nut to 50nm.

That is the way I have done it previously and did so with the caliper removed. I did have the wheel/tyre off and only gave a quick check of the bearing play at caliper. Of coarse grabbing the tyre will provide a better feel if there is any. I did not check it once the tyre and wheel was on again.

When I did the fronts the other night (note I did not do the fronts originaly) I did check with the wheel/tyre on before I bent the tab over. I found that the 10nm setting was a little low, but it takes bugger all more to remove that play when the second lock nut is tightend to 50nm. I think I went to about 12nm on the adjuster nut.

how are you guys feeling for heat at the hub. Only place I can get my hands is on the driveflange, otherwise it means taking the wheel off.

I guess this is one of those things where experience and feel comes into play.
Is that the Defender WSM? I thought the D1 and Defender hubs and wheel bearings were the same, but the D1 WSM says:


11. Clean stub axle and drive shaft and fit hub assembly to axle.
12. Fit spacing washer.
13. Fit hub adjusting nut. Tighten to 61 Nm.
14. Back off adjusting nut 90°. Tighten to 4 Nm.
This will give the required hub end float of
0,010mm
15. Fit a new lock washer.
16. Fit locknut. Tighten to 61 Nm.
17. Tab over lock washer to secure adjusting nut
and locknut.

61Nm and 4Nm?

My hub nut spanner just had a hole through the side, so I just use a big screwdriver to tighten it and have an educated guess at torque numbers. ;) Still, I would love to know why we have different torque values?

[uninformed]

yes, Im using the RAVE LR Def workshop manual. My hub nut socket/spanner was the same as yours. I bought a impact socket of the appropriate size, dressed it on a linishing belt so it would fit in the end and welded it up. This so I could use my torque wrench, which is snap-on and just been sent away for calibration.

[Davo]

I wonder why LR went to this later method when the old one seemed to work okay? On my old-style hubs I use the old method of measuring with a dial gauge - everything assembled and tightened, including the second locknut, check endfloat, (I think it's about .004" or so, but certainly almost nothing), and bend locktabs when you've got it. This is really no different to the method of "feeling" for hub play, I just find it easier. I did find that it was important to measure with the second locknut tightened up, otherwise you'd get some preload.

[PAT303]

I always pre-load the bearings or within a month their loose,I also do mine with the wheel on and ''feel'' the tightness before finishing the job.It also pays to fold the tab washer over and pinch both nuts,I've seen them where the nuts can be moved because of the gap in the washer. Pat

[uninformed]

I was under the impression all tapered roller bearings need some pre load.

I did check the hub for spin and wobble, but without the wheel. Id say there is nothing wrong with the LR procedure, but just me i.e. not enough experience.

PAT, not understanding your comment on the lock/tab washer, I bend it over the inner adjusting nut and the outwards over the outside lock nut.

I will say, that with the low torque setting of 10Nm(7lb/ft) for the adjusting nut setting, that there is room for error. The torque wrench, the thread of the stub and nut, how clean you have these etc. I found that doing it at 10Nm didn't remove wobble, but upping only 3Nm did. This checked only after the second, locking nut was installed to the correct torque setting.

[Davo]

I was under the impression all tapered roller bearings need some pre load.

I did check the hub for spin and wobble, but without the wheel. Id say there is nothing wrong with the LR procedure, but just me i.e. not enough experience.

PAT, not understanding your comment on the lock/tab washer, I bend it over the inner adjusting nut and the outwards over the outside lock nut.

I will say, that with the low torque setting of 10Nm(7lb/ft) for the adjusting nut setting, that there is room for error. The torque wrench, the thread of the stub and nut, how clean you have these etc. I found that doing it at 10Nm didn't remove wobble, but upping only 3Nm did. This checked only after the second, locking nut was installed to the correct torque setting.

That might be your problem. You may as well try it the old way so that you'll know by feel or measurement how much endfloat the bearings have.

[Bush65]

I was under the impression all tapered roller bearings need some pre load.

I did check the hub for spin and wobble, but without the wheel. Id say there is nothing wrong with the LR procedure, but just me i.e. not enough experience.

PAT, not understanding your comment on the lock/tab washer, I bend it over the inner adjusting nut and the outwards over the outside lock nut.

I will say, that with the low torque setting of 10Nm(7lb/ft) for the adjusting nut setting, that there is room for error. The torque wrench, the thread of the stub and nut, how clean you have these etc. I found that doing it at 10Nm didn't remove wobble, but upping only 3Nm did. This checked only after the second, locking nut was installed to the correct torque setting.
"Pre load" doesn't mean tightening the bearing so it is under load.

It is a procedure prescribed for the conditions during installation, "pre" being loaded in service.

With taper roller bearings, unlike other rolling element bearings, the radial clearance changes dramatically with changes to the axial position of the cup and cone.

For example when determining preload for the taper roller bearings in an LT230 transfer case, you would consider the in service conditions where, for example the aluminium housing expands more than the gear assembly as temperature increases.

[PAT303]

I was under the impression all tapered roller bearings need some pre load.

I did check the hub for spin and wobble, but without the wheel. Id say there is nothing wrong with the LR procedure, but just me i.e. not enough experience.

PAT, not understanding your comment on the lock/tab washer, I bend it over the inner adjusting nut and the outwards over the outside lock nut.

I will say, that with the low torque setting of 10Nm(7lb/ft) for the adjusting nut setting, that there is room for error. The torque wrench, the thread of the stub and nut, how clean you have these etc. I found that doing it at 10Nm didn't remove wobble, but upping only 3Nm did. This checked only after the second, locking nut was installed to the correct torque setting.

What I mean is when you fold the tab washer over make sure it's got a good pinch or grip on both nuts or the nuts will move,I set the inner nut so there is no wobble and free spinning,I then tighten the outer nut tight,I mean quite tight and check again,you will find the inner has tightened slightly also,if it's good I finish the job,if too loose or too tight back the inner in or out till it's right.I don't use a torque wrench,just feel. Pat

[Tank]

My method differs a little, first I ensure the bearings are properly packed and the races properly seated in the hubs. I fit the hubs and bearings and do up tight to seat bearings, then back off a Mickey Hair (MH), fit the wheel, spin and check for play(wobble), tighten adjusting nut till no play when pulling on top and bottom of wheel, back nut off half a MH, check for play again and if satisfactory, i.e. no noticeable play and rotating smoothly. Fit the lock washer and lock nut, run the locknut up till it holds the lock washer against the adjusting nut. Then bend the lock tab over the adjusting nut so as it doesn't turn when tightening lock nut.
Tighten lock nut till you can't move it (I call this F'n Tight), then I give the corner of the lock nut a couple of healthy whacks with a blunt chisel and a hammer, then bend over the lock washer, never had a problem with loose nuts, Regards Frank.

[Bush65]

The following has nothing to do with why wheel bearings might become loose, but is for greater understanding of some things that are going on when wheel bearings are "pre-loaded", as per some of the posts above.

Firstly, although normally small, there is clearance between mating internal and external threads. No if's, but's, or maybe's, there is clearance. Because of manufacturing tolerance, the amount of clearance can vary from one installation to another.

Now take, for example, a right hand side hub assembly.

During the 1st stage of pre-loading the wheel bearings, when the inner nut is tightened against the outer wheel bearing and washer:

The right hand side flank of the internal thread (in the inner nut) is pushed against the left hand side flank of the external thread on the spindle/stub shaft. There will be some small clearance between the right flank of the external thread (spindle) and the left flank of the internal thread (inner nut).

Lets assume the tightening torque on the inner nut produced a bearing pre-load of say 10 Newtons (under the attraction of earth's gravity a 1 kg mass will create a force of 9.81N, or close enough to 10N for this discussion). I don't know, or care, how much tightening torque is required to produce a pre-load of 10N, it isn't important for this discussion.

To satisfy equilibrium (which the system must do), there will be a 10N force pushing to the left on the cone of the outer bearing (and washer) and this force will create a reaction force of 10N pushing to the right against the inner face of the inner nut (and washer). There must also be 10N force and reaction between the mating threads, right flank of inner nut and left flank of spindle.

During the 2nd stage of pre-loading the wheel bearings, when the outer nut is tightened against the inner nut and the tab washer between them:

The right hand side flank of the internal thread (in the outer nut) is pushed against the left hand side flank of the external thread on the spindle/stub shaft.

Now consider the case where the outer nut is tightened to produce 10N force against the tab washer and inner nut (approximately same tightening torque as applied to inner nut).

The pre-load on the bearings is unchanged, there will still be a 10N force on the cone of the outer bearing (and washer), and 10N reaction against the inner face of the inner nut (and washer). The force and reaction between the mating threads of the inner nut and spindle, now reduce to zero, and instead there is a 10N force to the left acting upon the outer face of the inner nut (and tab washer) and a 10N reaction to the right, acting upon the inner face of the outer nut (and tab washer). Now there will be 10N force and reaction between the mating threads, right flank of outer nut and left flank of spindle.

However if we continue to tighten the outer nut, beyond the 10N bearing pre-load, the inner nut (and the cone of the outer bearing, and washers) will be pushed further left until at some stage the left hand flank of the internal thread in the inner nut bears against the right hand flank of the external thread on the spindle. There will be clearance between the right hand flank of the thread inner nut and the left hand flank of the thread on the spindle.

Note: at this stage it should be clear that the thread of the inner nut is not contributing in any way to holding the hub assembly together. The inner nut is merely functioning as a spacer/washer, and only the thread of the outer nut carries any load from the wheel/tyre. Be alert, not alarmed ;)

I can't predict what this new force would be, but it wouldn't need a strong arm, and could be determined relatively easily in a lab. Let us say for the sake of this discussion that it is 20N.

If we continue to tighten the outer nut further, the bearing pre-load will increase slightly due to small deformation of the mating threads in the inner nut, but now there is a force and reaction between the left flank of the thread in the inner nut and the mating thread on the spindle.

If tightened a lot more, the bearing pre-load hardly changes, but the forces and reactions increase between the mating threads of both nuts and spindle and between the mating faces of the tab washer and the inner and outer nuts. In other applications (not our wheel bearings) this is the objective with using lock nuts - create high forces between the mating threads so the friction prevents the nuts loosening. With our wheel bearings, the thin nuts the threads would strip if we tried to tighten them enough, so a tab washer provides mechanical prevention of loosening.

When we drive along the highway, pretending our Land Rovers are sports cars, the centripetal force on the tyres reacts through the hubs to the wheel bearings. The centripetal force can be much higher than the pre-load during assembly. At the limit of traction, this force will be higher on the outside tyre, but the load is carried by the inner wheel bearing acting upon the shoulder of the spindle/stub axle. However the centripetal force on the inside tyre is carried by the outer wheel bearing acting upon the outer nut (remember that in the direction of the load there is clearance between the thread in the inner nut and the mating thread on the spindle).

Off road, it is possible to get a situation where a much greater force is applied through the outer wheel bearing and retaining nut. Wedged against rocks, it could be possible to create a force exceeding the vehicle weight.

The only reason I can imagine for Land Rover providing the procedure that Serg stated, with the low torque values, is an attempt to get both retaining nuts to share the load from the tyres. However I have strong doubts that this is the case. My views on tightening procedure for the wheels bearings were stated in an earlier post.

The only time I have seen the threads of the spindle and retaining nuts damaged is when wheel bearings have collapsed, so no one should be concerned with the retaining nuts for their wheel bearings. I have only stated the above for enlightenment.

[Davo]

I was going to mention the way the retaining nuts will be loose on their threads, which can affect the hub endfloat when you tighten them up, but I think you've covered it there! That's why now I tighten both, check the endfoat is at spec, and adjust if necessary. Usually I've got a fair idea of how loose the hub should be before I tighten both nuts, (hee hee), and what that will do to the endfloat I've just set. No guessing, just measuring.

[uninformed]

So I finally got to go back into the rear end and redo these wheel bearings. These were done 2 months ago with new bearings installed. The play was not much at all, but I wasnt happy with it. I ended up doing a combination of Bush65's method and the LR method. As I do not have the experience feel of some here, I wanted some torque values to know I wasnt setting the nut way to tight or loose.

I removed the brake calipers so there was no chance of it shadowing my feel so to speak. I started by stripping back so just the adjusting nut was left on. Backing it off and tightening again to LRs spec, spinning, checking and getting a feel. I then used a breaker bar to do it by feel. The 50Nm that LR prescribe isnt very much, so I did a fair bit more. Mind you this is only for seating in, not final setting. I did this a few times: tighten to feel (id say a good 100Nm) spin, back off. Spin, repeat. I then set the adjusting nut to 13Nm (3 more than LR spec) fitted the lock tab washer, installed the locking nut and tightend it to 52Nm. Spun and checked for play. Ths time round I had the wheel installed to check play. The one thing with the wheel on though, even when I had the adjusting nut tight (that approx 100Nm) it was still quite free to spin :confused:

I have attached some pics. The lock tab washer is for Pat, these where before I removed to redo. The bolts are to show what clean threads look like AFTER you remove them ( good to see cleaning and chasing threads pays off)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68973&d=1384942009

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68974&d=1384942043

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68972&d=1384941949

Oh and I had changed from RTV at the drive flange to hub, to using a genuine LR paper gasket and lightly sprayed with Hylomar. Reason being, it seems most things I do, I have to go back in for one reason or another. I hate having to re clean things after being quite thorough. I also found that with RTV, having to chisel off the driveflange ment small scratches, dings etc in the hub face. I redressed this before the use of paper gaskets. The driveflange comes off in your hand, one quick whipe with acetone and you are good to go again. Thanks Rick

[Davo]

I wouldn't bother with all that torquing stuff. Just push and pull the hub to feel for endfloat and adjust until there's just none at all. 100Nm on wheelbearing nuts just doesn't sound right to me. And even then the wheel had better be free to spin or you've got a real problem!

By the way, where's all the usual grease or oil leaking out of the bearings? It's always a mess when I do that sort of a job. (Nice work on the bolts, too.)

[uninformed]

I wouldn't bother with all that torquing stuff. Just push and pull the hub to feel for endfloat and adjust until there's just none at all. 100Nm on wheelbearing nuts just doesn't sound right to me. And even then the wheel had better be free to spin or you've got a real problem!

By the way, where's all the usual grease or oil leaking out of the bearings? It's always a mess when I do that sort of a job. (Nice work on the bolts, too.)

Hi Davo, the 100Nm was, A: just a guess by feel and comparison to the torqued 50Nm and B:, only the seating force of the adjusting nut, not the final value of it (i.e. backed of and slightly nipped up to 13Nm) This before the lock tab washer and lock nut installed.

Oil, well I did one side at a time. Yes I did the no no of working off a jack (trolley). With the side im working on raised the oil tends to flow away from the open end. Yes it still dribbles but I keep up to that with a rag. No grease as my axles/bearings etc are all one compartment oil feed/lubed. Oh and the bolts, if It wasnt clear, thats what they looked like when removed, no cleaning :) They were cleaned last time round (2 months ago)

[Judo]

The one thing with the wheel on though, even when I had the adjusting nut tight (that approx 100Nm) it was still quite free to spin :confused:


I'm still on this. If that's the case, then surely taking the free-play out of the bearing and "checking the wheel still spins freely" as some people have said - is a load of B.S. (No offence to anyone).

Unless I have misunderstood some descriptions of procedures...

[Davo]

I'm still on this. If that's the case, then surely taking the free-play out of the bearing and "checking the wheel still spins freely" as some people have said - is a load of B.S. (No offence to anyone).

Unless I have misunderstood some descriptions of procedures...

I used to have the wheel on while I did the adjusting but it was more trouble than anything. All you're really doing is removing the endfloat, or at least minimising it, so now I do it with just the hub on.

[flagg]

Sort of OT but sort of not.. The level of oil in the axle housing is below the stub shaft.. so the axle doesn't sit in an oil bath. With this in mind, if you are oil lubricating should you re oil the bearings? Go around corners quickly to get the oil moving over them?

(I squeeze some oil over them as best I can during re-assembly)

[2stroke]

I have the maxi setup with no seals on the axles. I always pack the wheelbearings with grease on assembly, then when it's time to fill the diff I put the wheels on, jack the driver's side up about 2 inches and pump it in, that way it runs into the long tube and when the filler plug is in and I drop it down it runs into the drivers side.
From memory the maxidrive literature says something to the effect of "fill the diff ti 1/2 way up the filler hole". Always found that amusing.

[Bush65]

All bearings, wheel bearings, all bearings in an engine, unless designed to run without, need to be lubricated during assembly. There are the odd exceptions, such as the staved bearings of ship propeller shafts, which are lubricated by sea water.

IMHO use some grease during assembly of oil lubricated wheel bearings.

[Bush65]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/68974d1384942043-why-do-wheel-bearings-come-loose-p1000899.jpg

When bending the tab washer, the important part is that it is bent down against the right hand end of the flat on the nut. The tab washer is not to prevent the nut falling off, it is to prevent the slightest nut rotation in the loosening direction. This what is shown in this pic is fine for the inner nut because you don't want to increase the pre-load while bending over the tab washer.

I wouldn't go to the trouble pulling the flange off and doing it again, but keep in mind for future reference.

[uninformed]

I can fill my rear axle set up well above the normal point if needed. In the front I have fillers in the swivel housing and also in the driveflanges.

I always flood the bearings with oil on assembly. Not just the cone, but the cup and stub axle. On filling I then park the car on a side slope and change around after a while.

John, do you mean I should have bent that tab over further to the end of the flat it is on, or choose another flat on the right side?

[Judo]

My 2c on oil lube:

I changed my Disco to oil lube wheel bearings and since doing that I substantially over fill the rear diff by jacking up the driver side of the diff while filling. My theory is that gets oil at least to the passenger side while filling, then I just jack up the other side, or drive up a gutter or something. Bingo, both sides lubed.

You could just put oil in each hub and fill diffs to normal level, but for the cost of a few litres of oil, I think overfilling is a MUCH safer bet.

I slightly over filled the CV's as well, but visually, the level plug appears just high enough to fill the hub anyway, so not such an issue here - as long as you check the level again after a drive as some oil will migrate and level may go down.

[JDNSW]

My 2c on oil lube:

I changed my Disco to oil lube wheel bearings and since doing that I substantially over fill the rear diff by jacking up the driver side of the diff while filling. My theory is that gets oil at least to the passenger side while filling, then I just jack up the other side, or drive up a gutter or something. Bingo, both sides lubed.

You could just put oil in each hub and fill diffs to normal level, but for the cost of a few litres of oil, I think overfilling is a MUCH safer bet.

I slightly over filled the CV's as well, but visually, the level plug appears just high enough to fill the hub anyway, so not such an issue here - as long as you check the level again after a drive as some oil will migrate and level may go down.

Bearings are supposed to be greased on assembly to ensure initial lubrication, but overfilling is hardly necessary unless you drive slowly enough round all corners to avoid sideways movement of oil and avoid roads with camber in either direction.

John

[Judo]

^ From memory I still put a slither of grease on as well. Just not anywhere as much as for greased lube only. :)

[uninformed]

I have been told some greases do not play well with some oils. I dont see the problem with pre lubing them with the oil that is going in the housing. Is there any thought that this not enough? While I havent done many of these (clearly) I have done 2 rear hub seals, 2 rear complete strip outs. No sign of cooking the bearings what so ever. In fact all the bearings I am/have replaced look like they would be good for another 300,000km.

[rick130]

I just pre-oil with the oil I'm using in the diff.

Never had a problem.

[Bush65]

...

John, do you mean I should have bent that tab over further to the end of the flat it is on, or choose another flat on the right side?
Bend the tab over to create firm contact with the end of the nut flat to ensure the possible rotation of the nut in the direction of loosening is minimised. See where the red arrow is pointing in the pic below.

If the nut can back off slightly, the pre-load will reduce.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=69058&stc=1&d=1385170172

[uninformed]

Thanks John, noted and done on the front end.

Match, or mix ok?

When I install these bearings, I'm always careful to match the cup and cone from one box. Marking the box for L/R in and out. Cups get seated all in one sitting.

This time I had a cone that would not fit over the left stub axle (lucky it was an outer, not the one dropped in before the hub seal!) I had to swap it for one of the others and use it on the other stub axle.

Is this a no-no?

[Bush65]

Timken usually package cups and cones separately. So no issue with them.

In your case if the cup and cone came from the same manufacturer, and the manufacturer is known for their quality, e.g. timken, skf, fag, ntn, then I wouldn't stress, although I would try to match the cup with the cone from the same package.

[uninformed]

Yes only Timken for me. They came matched in box. It was a matter of do what I did or strip the seal out of the hub and drift the cup back out and do the same with another one in the other hub. That did not seem like fun at all :D

[Blknight.aus]

Timken usually package cups and cones separately. So no issue with them.

In your case if the cup and cone came from the same manufacturer, and the manufacturer is known for their quality, e.g. timken, skf, fag, ntn, then I wouldn't stress, although I would try to match the cup with the cone from the same package.

Depends on how you order them. you can order Sets or parts....