My Day In Court

[d2dave]

Actually it was seven, supreme court. The story starts around twelve months ago. Our local footy team won the grand final, held on a Sunday. The following day was "Mad Monday". For those of you who do not follow footy, Mad Monday is a let your hair down and relax after a strenuous season(**** up).

On Mad Monday players dress up in fancy dress. Our Mad Monday was in one of our local hotels, and as we had just won a flag there was also lots of parents, including myself, grand parents and friends, in what was a real family atmosphere.

A person unknown to us came in about 8.30 PM. Half an hour later an incident happened where this bloke whacked one of our players. He then hit the bloke back, the blow causing him to fall, with the impact of his head on the tile floor causing his death two weeks later, after life support was switched off..

Our friend was charged with man slaughter. The case finished last week with what we believe was the correct verdict, not guilty.

Our friend hired a top QC to defend him, with a bill in excess of $150,000.

This is the first time I have ever sat a trial in the supreme court, and I did find it interesting. I have never wanted to do jury duty, I once was called but found an excuse. If called again I think I would actually enjoy it.

[RisingSun]

Always a very interesting time visiting court, even if it is just the Monday morning call over in the Magistrates Court.

[d2dave]

My last visit to a magistrates court was not interesting at all. I spent the next month walking.:mad:

[Ausfree]

Courts and Cemeteries are the same, keep out of them as long as you can!!!!;)

[Chucaro]

I just wonder what would happen if the accused did not have the $150000 for the legal costs :angel:

[Ralph1Malph]

I just wonder what would happen if the accused did not have the $150000 for the legal costs :angel:

They would still have enjoyed the same verdict.:o
As I have previously posted, my family is currently paying $$heavily$$ for a civil trial and we have learn't that paying for 'top' barristers and QC's is like having health insurance. You'll still be fixed if you don't have insurance but it'll be slower and you'll have a more junior but just as capable doctor - you may even die waiting:eek:.

I now believe, as does the OP, that we know scant all about our legal system and how it works. I have also avoided jury duty (as a Soldier I can) but would not avoid it again if selected.

As for Mr Whippy's case, I hope that justice has prevailed and all can put it behind them and get on with life. I do feel for the perp who has paid a somewhat higher price although argueably at his own hand.

Ralph

[Treads]

My last visit to a magistrates court was not interesting at all. I spent the next month walking.:mad:

So you were innocent? ;)

[scarry]

So you were innocent? ;)

Thats what they all say........:p

As for courts,never been there until one of my sons did some thing he shouldn't have done.
Cost him(me) $12.5K:mad:

He is still paying me back gradually....

I just hope he has learnt his lesson........

Some do seem to learn the hard way.

[superquag]

Thats what they all say........:p

As for courts,never been there until one of my sons did some thing he shouldn't have done.Cost him(me) $12.5K:mad:

He is still paying me back gradually....
I just hope he has learnt his lesson........

Some do seem to learn the hard way.

I feel your frustration.:(
One of mine was also foolish...and we've ended up paying for it, one way and another.
- So has he.

[d2dave]

They would still have enjoyed the same verdict.:o
As I have previously posted, my family is currently paying $$heavily$$ for a civil trial and we have learn't that paying for 'top' barristers and QC's is like having health insurance. You'll still be fixed if you don't have insurance but it'll be slower and you'll have a more junior but just as capable doctor - you may even die waiting:eek:.

I now believe, as does the OP, that we know scant all about our legal system and how it works. I have also avoided jury duty (as a Soldier I can) but would not avoid it again if selected.

As for Mr Whippy's case, I hope that justice has prevailed and all can put it behind them and get on with life. I do feel for the perp who has paid a somewhat higher price although argueably at his own hand.

Ralph

I don't fully agree here. After sitting through this trial I really believe that it was touch and go as to which way the verdict would go. With a lesser "suit" I am sure it would have not gone the way it should have.

As for the perp, here are a couple of facts from the case. He was 60 years old. He has come into the pub where no one new him. He tried to hang around our players, most under 25 yo. Someone asked him what he was doing here. (he did have a legal right to be where he was but morally he didn't) His reply "I want to be with winners". Makes him sound like a loser to me.

He lived in a caravan in a caravan park (trailer trash?). He had a blood alcohol of .18 and he drove to the pub. He came in with a bottle of Pepsi which turned out to contain port.

I did not see him myself, as I left the pub about 10 minutes before the incident. I am probably being a bit judgmental here, but personally I reckon this bloke was an oxygen thief, and probably deserved what he got.

Some might think I am being a bit harsh, but this is the way I see it, and I make no apologies for my feelings.

[Roverlord off road spares]

I sued a driver once in the magistrates court for a car accident.
The guy who ran into me was greek, he was lying through his teeth via the interpretor.
I won the case due to the fact that I swore at him in a greek word.
He told the magistrate that I spoke to him in greek and admitted (in greek ) that is, I was at fault etc etc.
The Magistrate looked at me and I won the case.
The poor Greek guy, was happy as he thought he had won .
Suppose it's a bit like them quote from the movie My Big
fat Greek Wedding " the world is full of Greeks and want to be greeks";)

[ATH]

The Cook and I took our Greek neighbour to court.....got nowhere.
As soon as we saw the shape of the magistrates head and nose we knew we had no chance.:D
AlanH

[DiscoMick]

Glad its over for you, but its never easy.
I've probably spent several years in court overall, in chunks, all for work, so I know what can happen. Family conflicts are the most harrowing, I think.

I once fell asleep in court and the judge threw me out because my snoring was annoying him!

[Duke4]

Actually it was seven, supreme court. The story starts around twelve months ago. Our local footy team won the grand final, held on a Sunday. The following day was "Mad Monday". For those of you who do not follow footy, Mad Monday is a let your hair down and relax after a strenuous season(**** up).

On Mad Monday players dress up in fancy dress. Our Mad Monday was in one of our local hotels, and as we had just won a flag there was also lots of parents, including myself, grand parents and friends, in what was a real family atmosphere.

A person unknown to us came in about 8.30 PM. Half an hour later an incident happened where this bloke whacked one of our players. He then hit the bloke back, the blow causing him to fall, with the impact of his head on the tile floor causing his death two weeks later, after life support was switched off..

Our friend was charged with man slaughter. The case finished last week with what we believe was the correct verdict, not guilty.

Our friend hired a top QC to defend him, with a bill in excess of $150,000.

This is the first time I have ever sat a trial in the supreme court, and I did find it interesting. I have never wanted to do jury duty, I once was called but found an excuse. If called again I think I would actually enjoy it.

Just out of interest, if he was found Not Guilty does the crown have to pay the $150,000?

[steveG]

It seems to be almost weekly that someone is in court after someone they have punched dies after falling to the floor (irrespective of the events that led up to the punching).

Maybe its just being reported more but I don't recall it being such an issue 30 years ago. What's going on?
Are our brains softer, blood thinner, concrete harder or is it simply a result of more people striking out?

While in this case its perceived that justice was done as it was the person who died who the one who threw the first punch - what if the decision HAD gone the other way. Would the decision to return the punch have been such a good one.
I may be well off track, but I'm picturing here: 60y/o drunk bloke on his own punched by a stronger fitter (younger) man while in the company of many others who'd likely have evicted him anyway. Was there a better option?

Steve

[d2dave]

Just out of interest, if he was found Not Guilty does the crown have to pay the $150,000?

Only in civil cases can you claim costs if you win. In criminal cases it is stiff poo.

[Duke4]

Only in civil cases can you claim costs if you win. In criminal cases it is stiff poo.

That sucks, so they make a mistake you spend a ****load to defend yourself and when you prove they were wrong it's tough titties your cost! :mad:

[Ralph1Malph]

That sucks, so they make a mistake you spend a ****load to defend yourself and when you prove they were wrong it's tough titties your cost! :mad:

Almost.
Civil proceedings can follow criminal procedings as a means to have your costs returned.

For Example,
If you successfully win a criminal trial then there may be grounds to sue on civil grounds as either your reputation has been besmerched, earning capacity curtailed or the verdict has diminished your capacity to pay. The pretext is that as you were 'not guilty' the trial and therefore costs and fallout should never have occurred.

Ralph

[Meken]

As for the perp, here are a couple of facts from the case. He was 60 years old. He has come into the pub where no one new him. He tried to hang around our players, most under 25 yo. Someone asked him what he was doing here. (he did have a legal right to be where he was but morally he didn't) His reply "I want to be with winners". Makes him sound like a loser to me.

He lived in a caravan in a caravan park (trailer trash?). He had a blood alcohol of .18 and he drove to the pub. He came in with a bottle of Pepsi which turned out to contain port.

I did not see him myself, as I left the pub about 10 minutes before the incident. I am probably being a bit judgmental here, but personally I reckon this bloke was an oxygen thief, and probably deserved what he got.

Some might think I am being a bit harsh, but this is the way I see it, and I make no apologies for my feelings.

Sure is harsh judging someone by 2nd here say?
Anyone stop to think maybe he had mental illness, depression or was simply lonely?
Surely a punch from a 66yr old was hardly felt by the 20something footballer ? I hope that this experience in court makes this young fella think before the adrenalin causes his arm to swing again.

66 drunk on port living in a caravan .. Doesn't sound to me like he deserved to die? Maybe some help?

[ozscott]

Only in civil cases can you claim costs if you win. In criminal cases it is stiff poo.


That's not correct in Qld at least.

Cheers

[mudmouse]

I presume the Defence argued 'self-defence'..? (I can't think of any other argument) And if so, I hope that lad is counting his blessings because walking away would've been the better option - in hindsight of course.

$150k for your freedom is paltry, 'cos he could've got 7-10 years...

In regard to claiming costs, an application for professional costs can be made (and accepted) if it can be shown a 'prima facie' case was not met, that meaning the Prosecution did not 'on face value' have a case against someone, or a component of the prosecution (arrest, interview, evidence) was unlawful, and the matter should never have proceeded to Court.

Matt.

[d2dave]

Sure is harsh judging someone by 2nd here say?
Anyone stop to think maybe he had mental illness, depression or was simply lonely?
Surely a punch from a 66yr old was hardly felt by the 20something footballer ? I hope that this experience in court makes this young fella think before the adrenalin causes his arm to swing again.

66 drunk on port living in a caravan .. Doesn't sound to me like he deserved to die? Maybe some help?

Firstly if you re-read my post you will see that he was 60 not 66.

Secondly, the bloke was about 35 kg heavier than the footballer and when he struck, our friend was at the time kneeling, so the bloke cupped one hand behind his head to make the blow even more severe.

[Tombie]

Bleeding hearts on here some times...

I know plenty of 60+ year olds capable of giving younger blokes an absolute thrashing...

We (in a humane manner) put down violent animals that are driven to attack people... Why not the same rules for the ****ed up members of society?

If that was my son that was king hit the **** wouldn't be standing after I was done.

[Gumnut]

Hi all,

This may very well be a matter near and dear to my heart. And a bit close to home for comfort.

However, in ACT, if one makes out a case early, outlining why prosecution should not take place, and if the matter is heard by a magistrate, and if the accused is subsequently found only guilty by a magistrate, "reasonable" costs may be awarded to the accused. It was stressed to me, in weasel words, that "reasonable" would be less than the fee. Imagine the restraint that was exercised in not connecting the dots, and making a bold statement of the bleeding obvious that the fees were, by default and definition, therefore unreasonable.

If the matter proceeds to the Supreme Court and jury finds not guilty, the accused, and recently found innocent, bears the cost of legal representation.

So the justice only really comes when the prosecutor is inevitably later prosecuting the "witnesses" for some other misdemeanour, or rather more wishfully, when the ilk of the "witnesses" trot around to the prosecutors house, in numbers, in the middle of the night, and threaten to bash up the children or rape the parents. Or, more pertinently, begin to execute such threats.

And then we would truly see just which side of the coin would land upwards, and what would happen, and how justice should really be served. Ha ha.

Gumnut

[Eevo]

Bleeding hearts on here some times...

I know plenty of 60+ year olds capable of giving younger blokes an absolute thrashing...

We (in a humane manner) put down violent animals that are driven to attack people... Why not the same rules for the ****ed up members of society?

If that was my son that was king hit the **** wouldn't be standing after I was done.

I find the problem is we don't put down animals.

[VM_Motori]

Bleeding hearts on here some times...

I know plenty of 60+ year olds capable of giving younger blokes an absolute thrashing...

We (in a humane manner) put down violent animals that are driven to attack people... Why not the same rules for the ****ed up members of society?

If that was my son that was king hit the **** wouldn't be standing after I was done.

Too right I know a 65+ year old ex SAS that would still hand it to anyone.

I wanna know how rights the rules I mean like what background did they come from and where do they get the sentience from a raffle out of a hat.
I say EYE for an EYE is the only true justice.

Kinda like stealing and loosing a hand ya never did it again did ya ;)

Vm

[Sparksdisco]

how is the kid doing?

wrong or right that Kid has to live with the fact that he has killed someone.

I hope he has the support he needs to enable him to come to terms with that.

if the situation was reversed i wonder how it would of played out?

[d2dave]

how is the kid doing?

wrong or right that Kid has to live with the fact that he has killed someone.

I hope he has the support he needs to enable him to come to terms with that.

if the situation was reversed i wonder how it would of played out?

From all reports he is doing ok. He has plenty of support from the family and the footy club is right behind him.

[Tombie]

That young guy didn't kill anyone.

He defended himself and the silly old ****er smacked his head as a consequence...

The law is an ass sometimes...


That's akin to saying Holden killed a bunch of teenagers hooning in a Commodore...


Hope this lad can see that all he did was defend himself, after that gravity and karma took over.

[Meken]

Firstly if you re-read my post you will see that he was 60 not 66.

Secondly, the bloke was about 35 kg heavier than the footballer and when he struck, our friend was at the time kneeling, so the bloke cupped one hand behind his head to make the blow even more severe.

Sorry ... Stand corrected. Sounds like more going on than I first understood from the original post.

[Gerokent]

Sorry ... Stand corrected. Sounds like more going on than I first understood from the original post.

Three sides to every story; "Yours, mine and the whole dam truth"

[bob10]

A terrible experience for the young footballer. IMO, and just mine, I believe the Senior players, and more so, the management of that team must share the blame for what happened. The incident happened at 8.30 at night, when did mad Monday start? Where were the minders, sober, looking after the players? If that , by all accounts, alcoholic, had been pulled aside by the management of the Hotel, and even ejected, after a discreet complaint from team management, no problem. And before you start, I've seen more mad Mondays than grand finals, that young fellow was let down badly by his team management, just my opinion. The drunk? should have been given short thrift by a sober, mature member of the group or hotel management , early on. Bob

[gimposarillios]

You can't blame teammates and team management for idiots trying to fight. If you throw the first punch, whatever follows you caused. To even think to blame anyone other then the unfortunate old fella is ridiculous.

[bob10]

You can't blame teammates and team management for idiots trying to fight. If you throw the first punch, whatever follows you caused. To even think to blame anyone other then the unfortunate old fella is ridiculous.


You missed the whole point. And I guess there is no point in trying to educate you, Bob

[slug_burner]

You can't blame teammates and team management for idiots trying to fight. If you throw the first punch, whatever follows you caused. To even think to blame anyone other then the unfortunate old fella is ridiculous.

I agree with Bob. If a drunk throws a punch at you doesn't mean that you should throw one back. It should never have got to that stage. No, that is not being a whimp, just the difference between civilised and uncivilised behaviour.

[bob10]

I will try to say one more time, to make it clear. Team management allowed this to happen. Bob

[BMKal]

Note to team management ...............................

"At future social events, make sure you've got your crystal ball with you".

Claiming that "team management" was responsible for this unfortunate event is just plain ludicrous. If you believe that "team management" or anyone else can foresee the actions of every drunken fool - well I sure as hell can't follow your logic.

Gets back to the simple premise of people taking responsibility for their own actions. From the information presented in this post, the old bloke is entirely responsible for what happened to him. Yes - it's unfortunate that he died as an outcome of this event, but he really brought the actions on himself by his own stupidity. There's too many who always want to look to blame others. Fortunately, the court saw the events for what they were in this case.

[bob10]

Note to team management ...............................

"At future social events, make sure you've got your crystal ball with you".

Claiming that "team management" was responsible for this unfortunate event is just plain ludicrous. If you believe that "team management" or anyone else can foresee the actions of every drunken fool - well I sure as hell can't follow your logic.

Gets back to the simple premise of people taking responsibility for their own actions. From the information presented in this post, the old bloke is entirely responsible for what happened to him. Yes - it's unfortunate that he died as an outcome of this event, but he really brought the actions on himself by his own stupidity. There's too many who always want to look to blame others. Fortunately, the court saw the events for what they were in this case.


You have absolutely no idea of the word " management" or have never been in the situation of " managing" young athletes, I would say." Team management", as you put it , are absolutely responsible for what happened there. When young athletes go on the " mad Monday" , something I do not agree with, without some supervision, the chance of just that incident happening is high. Without a sober overview, provided by management, or, senior team members, this can happen. So, did these young men go out into the public arena dressed in womens' clothes, without some kind of management , or did the team managers leave them with it? What kind of people do you think young men in womens clothes attract, & do you think the football club was responsible, if no sober overview was available. If that was your son, would you still think the same? Bob

[Bigbjorn]

Really, Mad Mondays are a total anachronism. Letting meat-head young footballers loose in public in a pack all with an absolute skinful of grog is a recipe for disaster. Aside from numerous licensing and public order laws being broken. If they must have an end of season booze-up, pen them in the clubhouse and grounds. Save a lot of assaults, sexual offences, etc.

[d2dave]

I will try to say one more time, to make it clear. Team management allowed this to happen. Bob

Bob. Unless you were there you don't really know the circumstances.

Firstly let me say this. I am not a big fan of Mad Monday myself but like it or not it is always going to happen(bit like schoolies week which I hate).

Now in our case. If the footy club tried to ban mad Monday they would lose half their players. They cannot control it either as all players are over 18.

They can certainly discipline a player for bad behavior, but this happens in the week following the event.

Now as for our Mad Monday. We are a small country town(pop 3500) The local hotels here are part of the community and heavily support the footy club. I might add at this point that the footy club here, and in a lot of small towns are the social fabric of the town.

In our case the boys, as well as parents(me included) and grand parents were all having a good time, it was not unruly, behavior was good and as was noted in court it was a big family atmosphere.

There were many board members there and I can assure you that had anything got out of hand they probably would have acted.