Largeish Hydraulic Press Build

[roverrescue]

Sometimes you get lucky and end up in the right place at the right time.
Old time engineer in town, Bill, is selling some of his gear off.
I managed to pick up what will become a new press for me for about the cost of scrap steel for the frame ;) Bill wanted less but we negotiated up on price!

I had been wanting to change up from the 20T jobbie that is back bendingly low, wobbly and inaccurate and really just painful! I didnt intend going quite this big but hey you work with what you got!

Specs are something like this:

Frame is built largely from 8"x4" Tapered Flange Beam (unsure of weight but lets just say solid)
Frame stands 2400mm high and is 1300mm between the uprights
Bed is a pair of 8"x4" with 8" gap - press plate area will be 1300mmx400mm

Hydraulic ram is double acting trunnion mount
4.125" piston diameter by 12" stroke
threaded rod end
Beam trolley to track the ram left to right will need some work
Rod chrome is pristine, I have no way of testing seals but the piston travels smoothly.
I will likely re-seal the piston as a matter of course.

The project:

-Rejigger ram trolley so that it moves smoothly at rest and when loaded up the trunnion ring engages force into the press frame. I will use the ram to raise and lower the bed.
-Source a pump and spool valve to control the ram - power will be via electric motor. (made that sound easy didnt I ;) )
-Source some heavy plate for the press bed.
-Paint a sign "Bills' Press" to capture the history of the old girl.
-Sell the old 20T jigger (blue press in photo)
-Get back to doing what I should be like building that (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/trailers-vans-campers/178035-chassis-build-box-trailer.html) trailer.

How can you guys help:

-I only have a pretty basic understanding/ experience of hydraulics.
By my calcs the piston contains ~0.69Gal (~13.3sq" x 12" stroke). So as to not make the stroke painfully slow I am thinking something up around 5 GPM flow rate at what I presume will be about 3000psi.
Soo any recommendations on pumps, hp of motor to drive said pump and spool valve & plumbing would be appreciated. I think I will build it with the hydraulics and tank up top just to keep the floor clear.

-Also need some idea on the bed support pins. The holes are drilled at inch diameter.
One pin is an old length of shafting the other is a piece of MS rod which is a little banana like. Thoughts are to source 25mm HT rod or shafting or possibly over drill the holes and use some old axle half shafts I have floating around?

-Any other good ideas?

Steve

[Bearman]

That is a ripper of a press Steve. Wish I had one like that, my present one is smaller than the one you are getting rid of.:D

[roverrescue]

Should just about do the job eh Brian ;)

Now more calcs from this site (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydraulic-pumps-horsepower-d_1464.html)

I see that a 5hp motor (about the biggest easily obtained single phase) will yield about 3GPM at 3000psi assuming 100% efficiency. So best case would be piston stroke time of 14 seconds. I reckon I could live with that.

Soooo onto the pump. To ensure the pump is not the rate limiter lets look for a pump that will provide a say 6GPM at motor shaft speed (2800rpm)
6 Gal is 366 cu inches - so pump capacity needs to be 0.13cuin/rev at 3000psi.
Seems GPM are usually stated at 1750RPM but on my calcs this unit should work
Yuken Hydraulic Gear Pump PG0E 210 1GPM 3000PSI Keyed Shaft 2 1cc 13CID SAE NEW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Yuken-Hydraulic-Gear-Pump-PG0E-210-1GPM-3000psi-Keyed-Shaft-2-1cc-13cid-SAE-NEW-/170857270175?pt=Pneumatic_Hydraulic_Valves_Parts&hash=item27c7e30b9f)

Question is though, shaft speed range is 800-4000 so direct drive from 240 motor at 2800 is good, but why do they state them at 1750RPM? is it an efficiency thing or heat load???
Should I be looking to gear the motor down?

More I think about it - it is most likely due to pumping inefficiencies. I should just get a pump rated to say 4 or 5 GPM at 1750 - whack a motor on it and see how it goes! ;)

Any clues or ideas????

Steve

[Ancient Mariner]

Clues or ideas? Yep forget about the press just swop for a gearbox :p also keep the small press as a large press takes no prisoners:o

Noel

[roverrescue]

Hmmm, I would be lying Noel if I said your offer of a swap was tempting!!!!
Im hoping when it is done that prisoners could be reformed inside the press!

S

[wrinklearthur]

That 1750 RPM sounds like the pump is designed to be driven by a engine crankshaft.

Maybe you should look at having the pump driven though a pulley and vee belt arrangement, sorry if you have already stated this.

Personally I prefer the two hand pump system, with the high volume pump for locating the ram, then a high pressure - low volume pump to create the force required for the pressing operation.
I particularly like the feedback you get back through the handle and being able to feel how the press is performing while it's working.
.

[roverrescue]

Arthur,
Im a little sick of hand pumping ;)
Having seen Keith Fenners' press in action both on the u-tube and in person I seriously want a spool valve controlled hydraulic motor driven press!

Why upgrade unless you go large?

I do like the threaded portion of the rod end, I can see me turning up a few attachments which enable me to use the threads to locate a part with minimal pressure and then step back and let the hydraulics have at it.

Obiously the cheap/easy option is to use a hand pump with return circuit and some springs to pull the cylinder back up... but this is not the sorta press to cheap out on in my opinion ;)

S

[bee utey]

Old front McPherson struts (e.g.all Commodores) have hard chromed tough steel shafts which when cut off make good steel bar stock for all sorts of things, including press pins. About 22mm diameter.

[roverrescue]

Thanks BeeUtey
22mm might be a touch sloppy and last time I check a commo wont have 450mm of travel which would be the length of pin that I need?
But it is a good line of thought - I reckon a couple of truck dampers likely have long enough shafts of the roght diameter... Thanks

S

[wrinklearthur]

Arthur,
Im a little sick of hand pumping ;) x2 :p
Having seen Keith Fenners' press in action both on the u-tube and in person I seriously want a spool valve controlled hydraulic motor driven press!

Why upgrade unless you go large?

I do like the threaded portion of the rod end, I can see me turning up a few attachments which enable me to use the threads to locate a part with minimal pressure and then step back and let the hydraulics have at it.

Obiously the cheap/easy option is to use a hand pump with return circuit and some springs to pull the cylinder back up... but this is not the sorta press to cheap out on in my opinion ;)

S
I will see if I can get a photo of a chap's 50 ton workshop press, it's a forty year old 'Servex' brand.

Never mind, here are some of a similar type of press that's for sale.

Ref; Used Servex 60 TON HYDRAULIC PRESS Hydraulic Presses in Murarrie, QLD Price: $4,680 <66369> (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/Servex-60-Ton-Hydraulic-Press/66369/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Killer]

The 1750 rpm would come from an american motor, 60Hz 4 pole would theretically be 1800 with a bit of slip it would come down to 1750.
Have you calculated the output force? At 3000psi I calculate it to be around 18 Tonne.
Cheers. Mick.

[roverrescue]

Thanks Killer the specs are all from US suppliers so would make sense they aim them at US motor spindle speeds
With regards to the press capacity. By using the US imperial maths it works out to be about 40,000lb at 3000psi so <20T as you say...
I guess I aimed at 3000psi as that seems to be the max operating pressure for shaft driven pumps and spool valves that I have found.
Im sure the frame would be good for 50-60T but to be honest I havent stalled out the 20T cheapy. Of course a few things were stubborn but I always stopped forcing well before the ram stopped giving it!
The creaking and groaning is a big disencentive!

I guess what I am saying is I really want this big useful press height with fully functional hydraulic control. 18T will barely tickle this frame and considering I mostly use it for pressing bearings / bushings / sleeves and what nots Im thinking 18T will do the job?

If I ever want to upgrade I guess I just need to up the hydraulic pressure somehow!

Steve

[roverrescue]

Press Talk 1 - YouTube

for the win!

I actually visited Keiths workshop when we were in the US last month.
He truly is a gentleman and superb machinist.

Anyways - Keiths press is the inspiration.

S

[wrinklearthur]

I do like the mechanism for raising and lowering the bed.

And the little press brake attachment.
.

[mzs]

Yes, this raising / lowering mechanism is very good. Something like this should I use in my press.

[Bigbjorn]

I will see if I can get a photo of a chap's 50 ton workshop press, it's a forty year old 'Servex' brand.

Never mind, here are some of a similar type of press that's for sale.

Ref; Used Servex 60 TON HYDRAULIC PRESS Hydraulic Presses in Murarrie, QLD Price: $4,680 <66369> (http://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/Servex-60-Ton-Hydraulic-Press/66369/)

http://www.machines4u.com.au/machinery/69/66369/Servex-60-Ton-Hydraulic-Press_288637.l.jpg

http://www.machines4u.com.au/machinery/69/66369/Servex-60-Ton-Hydraulic-Press_288636.l.jpg

http://machines4u.cachefly.net/machinery/69/66369/291629.l.jpg

http://www.machines4u.com.au/machinery/69/66369/Servex-60-Ton-Hydraulic-Press_288635.l.jpg

Good God, Arthur. That is Barry Gartshaw standing alongside that press. Big Country Machine Tools. I am surprised the old ***** is still in business. I have been to two auctions that were supposed to be closing down going out of business. You can be sure of one thing about Barry's asking prices and that is that he has plenty of fat in the deal.

[Rick1970]

The common motors you will source here will be either 2800 or 1400 rpm.


To get to 3000psi with a 5hp, a pump flow of about 2.5 GPM is about right.


With a 2800 rpm motor this works out to be around 3.3cc/rev...or 6.6cc/rev if using a 1400rpm motor.


Most common small gear pumps that you would use for this type of thing
would have the capability of going over 3000psi....4-4500 maybe. Construction of the cylinder starts getting critical at these pressures tho.


We have two presses at work...20T electric and 60T two stage hand / lever. I much prefer using the 60T press if what I'm doing requires and sort of feel at all.


Something that you could switch from electric to manual would be close to ideal.

[Blknight.aus]

I strongly suggest that you fit (depending on the electric pump setup you get, not all pumps have a relief valve built in) a relief valve with a return to tank and a flow control valve.

14 seconds for a stroke is kind of quick when you only want "just a fraction of an inch"

If you're just looking at getting a rapid descent with very little pressure you can get a fitting that lets you pressureise the tank to 1-2 psi which will move the piston down fairly quickly but without too much force, you then take over with the hand levers.

[Rick1970]

very few pumps have an inbuilt relief actually....most control valves do tho.


On the speed...yep, quick electric driven presses are a good way to break important bits....

[roverrescue]

So for an update. I have sourced all major bits and pieces.
Just waiting on an order of Ryco hose fitting adaptors to make the pump/valve/cylinder/filter all hook up to the hoses that Noel (AncientMariner) pilferred from a forklift.

Have constructed the travelling ram mount and all but done the 5 horse motor to gear pump mount.
This weekend hope to lick some paint on the mounts and then can start on the fluid tank and hopefully hook it together and start breaking important bits as Rick1970 has indicated !!!!

Next bits to procure is some "inchish thick" press plate for the bed. Overall size is 1300x500 which will make it a good workbench size!!!! And then some heavy bits of material to make up a pressbrake attachment...

Dave,
The flow control valve (spool valve) I have sourced has an adjustable pressure relief returning to tank. I havent actually got a pressure gauge in the plan yet so hoping the "pre-set" on the valve is closeish to safe otherwise I guess things will go big-badda-boom!

Steve

[Rick1970]

guessing that if the pump is anywhere near correctly sized, you will pop a fuse/circuit breaker before you generate any dangerous pressures.


for whats its worth, most generic aftermarket control valves usually seem to have their reliefs preset somewhere between 2000 and 2500 psi. This is not always the case tho.


If you have, or can get hold of a clamp amp meter, set the relief to obtain the max amp draw rating of the electric motor with the cylinder dead headed. This should get you close as long as the pump isn't a very small displacement.

[Blknight.aus]

Dave,
The flow control valve (spool valve) I have sourced has an adjustable pressure relief returning to tank. I havent actually got a pressure gauge in the plan yet so hoping the "pre-set" on the valve is closeish to safe otherwise I guess things will go big-badda-boom!

Steve

which breed of spool valve, just a standard gatey type job or one with rolling ports that give you flow control?

if you can feather the control on the hydraulic side you dont need the additional flow control valve to limit the flow rate out of the pump (I was assuming you were going for the very basic on/off controlled by starting/stoping the pump or solenoid control with a manual relief valve)

[roverrescue]

Website has changed a little in the three million turns of the hourglass since I started this thread.
But the gear pump is something like this one:
P2A0D6C1U (http://www.ozhyd.com.au/hydraulic-pumps/gear-pumps/gear-pump-6cc-cw-sae-a-2-bolt-3-4keyed-shaft.html)
and the valve is something like this one:
NEW VALVE SINGLE SPOOL 90 LPM 1/2 BSP PORTS GM10/1/YSD-X (http://www.ozhyd.com.au/hydraulic-valves/mobile-valves/monoblock-valves/gm10-1-ysd-x.html)

Now the 5 horsey motor I have is gonna spin at 2800rpm which I know with a 6cc pump will likely "overrate" the system a shade but my good mate always said that a tinny is rated at about half its actual best HP rating....

I like your system Rick of using a clamp meter to maximise the pressure to the supplied current to the motor... deadheading the cylinder though scares me a little - I think I will need to hide behind two empty beer cartons before doing that test!!!! If Noel hears a bang and they guys in Brisbane hear a muffled thud on Sunday afternoon yall know that my madness has overcome me!

S

[roverrescue]

Oh and Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave,
" (I was assuming you were going for the very basic on/off controlled by starting/stoping the pump or solenoid control with a manual relief valve)"

Surely my comment in post #7
"Why upgrade unless you go large?"
Should have been your tip off that this was going to be as NON basic and NON manual as possible. I want the lights to dim, the hounds to howl and the metal to groan as this baby puts her back into it... This will be a big boys press that will either kill me or quite possibly kill me ;)

S

[Rick1970]

By my rough guesstimations, a 6cc pump will give you about 4.4gpm when run at 2800rpm...which will take about 9.2hp to drive at 3000psi.....or 5hp to drive at 1650psi.


Pressure gives you the effort...flow the speed.....a smaller pump will give you greater effort (at reduced speed) for a given HP input..


I would probably crank the relief back a turn or so before initial start up, guessing you will pop a fuse when cylinder is fully extended/retracted if you don't.

[roverrescue]

Thanks Rick for the numbers,
will see what happens - I dont think one can buy a 10 horsey motor in single phase so might have to make some modifications on the fly!
If this jigger only pulls 1650psi that makes 20,000lb on a 4" ish cylinder which is likely sub-optimal

Perhaps there is some dumb luck in ending up under powered to start with!

When it all boilds down to it - the alleged 20T made in chingaling press I have been using for the last few years inspires my little left toe with as much confidence of safety as an angry mud crab

There is Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo way I would stack 10 commodores on those press plates of that press!!! So perhaps this thing running a 5 horsey motor will do hat i need it to do!

The best suggestion I have had during the build is to use the old 40hp evinrude slowly rotting on the motor stand in the corner to turn a gear pump... stick it way out the back some place and run long hydraulic lines!

S

[Rick1970]

if you can swap the motor for a 1400rpm one, you will be on the money...or belt drive the pump with a 2:1 reduction. Those pumps don't have a bearing on the input, so this would require some sort of outrigger bearing or dummy shaft arrangement tho......or look for a 6" cylinder......


9T is probably a tad less than optimal, but depends on what your doing with it I guess.....tho I have stalled a 200T tyre press...trying to get some rather large (and stuck) solid forklift tyres off rims...9" grinder and LOTS of tyre smoke!

[roverrescue]

Reckon I will just try it and see if either:
a/ I let the majic smoke out of the motor
b/ let 20L of hydraulic fluid escape an orifice at high velocity
c/ I cant squeeze a bannana out of its skin

Depending on alswer I will change something

I have heard elsewhere that solid fork lift tyres can be a shade stubborn.

S

[Blknight.aus]

Oh and Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave,
" (I was assuming you were going for the very basic on/off controlled by starting/stoping the pump or solenoid control with a manual relief valve)"

Surely my comment in post #7
"Why upgrade unless you go large?"
Should have been your tip off that this was going to be as NON basic and NON manual as possible. I want the lights to dim, the hounds to howl and the metal to groan as this baby puts her back into it... This will be a big boys press that will either kill me or quite possibly kill me ;)

S

oh well in that case, want to borrow one of the hyd rigs I work with

9000PSI at upto 38GPM driven by 275 HP of angry diesel?

just cause you go large doesnt mean you wont get just the simple stuff....

do you want to know how to make it really complicated?

mulitple pumps running with shuttle manifolds that run parrallel when under low load and then turn the pumps into series so the supercharge each other.. a very quick way of getting ass loads of pressure (assuming the pump casings hold up)

[roverrescue]

Soooo Im sure y'all are waiting with baited breath to here if I have managed to explode some $3trillion part with this jigger yet...

Welll,

Not quite - but geez it is getting close-ish

All major uppy-downy-roundy-roundy components are assembled. Just need flex hydraulic lines flushed and fitted (some are old fork lift lines - thoughts on best flush fluid? so far turps for the win?).
Also need to wire up the 5hp electric motor and then fill the hydraulic fluid and hopefully this thing can start breaking some parts!!!!

Steve

[Ancient Mariner]

Looking good .Now if you replace that pisant ram with an 8" we can all look forward to some real excitement:D .Bit of diesel and compressed air for the flush should be good enough

Noel

[mick88]

Or the torsion bars out of an old valiant.
They may be closer to one inch diameter.
They are good n tough!




Cheers, Mick

[roverrescue]

Another update - and this one has some actual pressing.

Sooo I flushed the lines and hoses with diesel, flushed the tank, then connected all the hoses. Wired up the motor following the Chinglish instructions for CW as opposed to CCW silly me figured CW was clockwise as needed by the gear pump. Fired up and the motor span counter-clockwise. No bother - rewired the motor then hit the go and we made pressure... which meant leaks!!! Fixed the four leaks and seems I have an almost leak free system.

So of course a ram going up and down is no fun - what would be the first attachment?

During the cyclone clean up I found a rusty old axe head under the BBQ...
One axe head plus some scrap steel, plus some internal threading on the lathe and voila!!!!!

My 'Back-no-hurty-can-split-wood-whilst-staying-hydrated log splitter'
And just in time with winter coming on ;)

Steve

[uninformed]

excellent work, but whats this "winter" business??? your in bloody Cooktown! :D

[Ancient Mariner]

Gee that will really test it:o

[roverrescue]

Winter - When the mercury drops down to 20 or even lower

Once this rain all leaves we are into to camping season it is so much easier to have wood prepped and in the ute when you go bush...
And for campfires in the back garden to watch the stars by...
And...anyway...do I really need an excuse to have a log-splitter?

Anyone know a tigharse way to monitor actual pressure applied?
Im thinking the bathroom scales may be just a little out of their league.
Im not completely adverse to putting a pressure gauge inline with the upper cylinder line
BUT I would just be as happy to measure max pressure applied at the stall point of the 5hp motor?

Steve

[roverrescue]

Noel,
That is some quality 6month aged swamp mahogany!
Not exactly a real test but was fun and wayyyy easier than that other way!

S

[Rick1970]

You SHOULD throw a fuse/circuit breaker before the motor stalls, or release the smoke from anything. Its also worth remembering the lecky motor will keep on going well past its rated amp rating, for a while anyway.... Really is best to set relief pressure no higher than the point the motor draws its max rated amps if you can beg/borrow/steal a clamp meter.


Actually, you should reach relief pressure and stall the ram before the motor gets anywhere near stalling, or popping breakers...


A pressure gauge and a few calcs would get you close.

[roverrescue]

Hmmm
u up for it
Rick

Tamworth - Cooktown = 2333km
You up for it? Only a days drive each way and the beer is cold and free once you get here.

The question is when I max the cylinder out in extension or compression and the motor/pump starts to slow (stall) what is happening?
Pressure up over 3000psi, pump still wanting more horsie-power but motor cant give it so it slows down???? Obviously as this happens I have let off the noise lever so smoke is still safely inside the motor.

Details are as such:

-5hp made in Chingaling single phase electric motor
-Running from "15A" circuit which is wired to main board with a dedicated 32A CB
-Which should technically supply the theoretical 28A required to run 5 horsies
-At "stall" which more accurately is "it slows down so I back off the spool valve" the CB does not throw. I am happy to keep pushing it but would prefer to keep both the smoke and hydraulic fluid inside.
-Pressure relief on spool is still at "OEM" setting" and it must have come from Solihull as it has a small leak about the stem seal... I have no qualms about relieving it down but would appreciate guidance as to best practice. Run a clamp meter on the input to the motor and relieve it at say 27A??? Or some % of peak current draw of the motor?


S

[Blknight.aus]

depends on the duty cycle of the motor in my book.

I would set your nominal hydraulic relief at about what it takes to have the motor draw 90% of its 50% duty cycle (if it doesnt have one then set it for 90% of whatever the motor is rated to on the panel)

Id then work out a way to jigger it up so that you have a deadman hooked up to the valve lever or setup so that if you do the "ohhh crap" dance you kill the electrics and the spool valve positions itself to dump pressure.


when you've stalled the flow of hydraulics but the drive motor is still turning you are doing one or all of

1. flowing through the relief valve
2. suffering pump slip
3. turning the gear on the shaft.

[Rick1970]

Back relief right off, hold lever and dead head cylinder, wind up relief till amp draw is at whats on the motors ID plate....as long as the pressure is still lower that the max working pressure of the pump/cylinder/valve/hoses. You mite be able to fudge it up a tad, go easy tho.


If the motor slows now, my guess is that the HP input required by the pump is significantly higher that the motors 5HP rating. You should be able to hear the relief going off (squealing) before this stage.


Looking at the thermometer on the wall that tells me its only 13 deg inside.....Cooktown sounds good about now!

[roverrescue]

Thanks Rick and Dave

Ill rustle up a clamp meter and see what is what with cylinder dead headed

Dave tell me more about pump slip... I cannot see how a gear pump can slip. If it is turning it is forcing fluid. If the head pressure is too high I guess it just makes heat?

Rick what is a fridgy doing in a town as cold as yours - just put the milk out on the porch! You do need to come north ;)

Steve

[Rick1970]

milk on the porch would work in about a month or so, have had a spoon freeze into a cup of water sitting on the sink overnite before....-11 that nite!

[worane]

In Tamworth , I can beleive that.
Pulled over there once for a sleep one night. Nearly froze to death, and nearly fried on a sumer day.

[Rick1970]

Actually this winter was quite mild as such. No frozen/busted pipes that pump 5000L of water into the laundry while I'm at work....1st for a few years :D

[Lionelgee]

Actually this winter was quite mild as such. No frozen/busted pipes that pump 5000L of water into the laundry while I'm at work....1st for a few years :D


Hello Rick,

It has been a couple of years since the last posting of your press. Just wondering if you have done anything more than split wood with it? Do you use it for pressing panels or the like? Or just basic stuff like pressing out bushes on Land Rover leaf springs?

Was there a thread on AULRO where someone made a 55 ton press? Or was it another site? Hmmm, I best keep looking - it is raining here anyway - and it is Sunday!

P.S. Found it! Accessed June 19th, 2016 from http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/156410-55t-press-11.html#post1735573. The thread has been inactive for quite a long while.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[roverrescue]

Lionel
Press is used regularly
Pressing bushes and bearings etc
I have also made up some specific dies for certain jobs such as forming dies for 50x6mm 316ss saddles
I made up a shoe for pressing off the beads on tyres welded on a bracket to hold a manual tyre changer frame is sturdy enough to support easy changes of tyres
I also made up a press brake attachment using commercial bending dies up to 1200mm wide
Nearly finished fabricating a rotary draw bender that via a lever uses the ram to rotate dies to bend tube and pipe

It's perhaps my favourite bit of metal in the shed

Steve