Salisbury in 130

[Landy86]

Do the new 130 still have the Salisbury diff in them ???

[weeds]

No.......

[rar110]

Salisbury ended in 2002?

[Landy86]

I've got a fully recon Salisbury diff from a defender

Will I able to put that in the rear of the 130

[Slunnie]

I thought the 130 salisburys were a stronger housing than the 110 ones for the load rating.

[Steve Td5 130]

Hi Bud

Should not be a problem to put a Salisbury into your Defender.
I'am currently in the process of going the other way taking the Salisbury out and replacing it with the same diff that your removing.

Cheers

Steve




I've got a fully recon Salisbury diff from a defender

Will I able to put that in the rear of the 130

[Slunnie]

Hi Bud

Should not be a problem to put a Salisbury into your Defender.
I'am currently in the process of going the other way taking the Salisbury out and replacing it with the same diff that your removing.

Cheers

Steve

Are you doing the Ashcroft conversion?

[Landy86]

Hi Steve
Why are you getting rid of the Salisbury

[Bush65]

I thought the 130 salisburys were a stronger housing than the 110 ones for the load rating.
Salisbury's came in two load ratings, the higher rating was standard for the 130, but optional for 110's. Though in later years the higher rating option for 110's was withdrawn.

AFAIK, the wall thickness of the axle tubes was the main, and probably only part of the Salisbury that was upgraded for the higher load rating.

[Steve Td5 130]

Hi gentlemen

There has been a lot of Salisbury diffs failures that have been reported over the last few years in South Africa, Europe and Uk.

Mostly breaking / cracking of the tube on the left hand side which will disable the car, where as the other style of diff housing is only likely to bend which does not disable the car.

I was quite interested in the custom made 9 inch front and rear diffs but I don't have that sort of money available.

The other style of diff housing was also used in the Disco 1 Defender 90 & 110
Which I think are also easier to work on.

I am setting my 130 up for touring so should not require the heavier diff

Cheers Steve

[Bush65]

Hi gentlemen

There has been a lot of Salisbury diffs failures that have been reported over the last few years in South Africa, Europe and Uk.

Mostly breaking / cracking of the tube on the left hand side which will disable the car, where as the other style of diff housing is only likely to bend which does not disable the car.

I was quite interested in the custom made 9 inch front and rear diffs but I don't have that sort of money available.

The other style of diff housing was also used in the Disco 1 Defender 90 & 110
Which I think are also easier to work on.

I am setting my 130 up for touring so should not require the heavier diff

Cheers Steve
Does anyone know how many of the failures were the "heavy duty" Salisbury that has thicker walls, or even how many were 130's?

I understand your other points, but why not use the disco 1 or RRC rear diff instead of the problematic short nose P38 style?

With an aftermarket centre (locker, or torque bias alternative) it will be more robust than the P38.

[PAT303]

The P38 is only problematic to keyboard experts,not in real life. Pat

[Bush65]

The P38 is only problematic to keyboard experts,not in real life. Pat
hmm

Now why did I expect a response like that from you.

Maybe I should take up fishing.

Allowing for the number of years that Salisbury's have been in service and the number of 110's and 130's with them, compared to the usage of the P38 style diff, I am fairly confident of which has the worst track record of failure.

Funny that there is a smaller market for fixes for the Salisbury compared to the P38 style.

Sent from my keyboard :D

[PAT303]

No need to take up fishing,I do all my taking from out in the bush,not behind a keyboard,doing the connie sue and anne beadell in three weeks in shock horror,a ford engined P38 diffed factory stock defender.What will you be doing?. Pat

[Bush65]

Pat,

Some people are not so lucky. When I'm not sitting behind my keyboard I will be doing something useful.

BTW how many 110's or 130's had their Salisbury replaced under warranty. I note that some have had their P38 diffs replaced more than twice during the warranty period.

Good luck on your trip.

[newhue]

I've got a fully recon Salisbury diff from a defender

Will I able to put that in the rear of the 130

Yes it drops straight in. You will need to lengthen your drive shaft to do so. I paid around $180 from Hardy Spicer to have it done.

I don't know how often a Sal breaks, there have been a few pictures posted up here usually on heavily laden Defenders, and seem to be 110's. All with no or little history attached. I have seen maybe 3 to 5 picks.

Pat believes us keyboard jocks are wasting our time by swapping out a P38.

However from my observation from warranty claims on the P38 within the Tdci build run, there has been significantly more issues with them then posted Sals breaking. Some unlucky people have had 5 P38's replaced under warranty. My drive line banged 2 to 3 times with every gear change, it has no bangs with the Sals. LR were not interested in fixing the bangs and said that is normal.

From my reading the P38's issue is pinion length, and it's relation to movement on it;s short bearing mounts, in relation to heavy loads or towing. The movement flogs the gears and bearing out and it all fails. Perhaps pre Tdci have better build quality, but if you are going remote, with family, or work, than the piece of mind knowing a late build P38 is no longer under the truck is worth the conversion. $2500 to rebuild a Sals is expansive, but not as expansive as a ruined holiday.

I too have been spooked by the broken Sals pics, wondering if I had gone backwards. But the shear volume of Sals that have been sold over the years, to my mind, occasionally one has to to break from fatigue and abuse.

[n plus one]

Yes it drops straight in. You will need to lengthen your drive shaft to do so. I paid around $180 from Hardy Spicer to have it done.

I don't know how often a Sal breaks, there have been a few pictures posted up here usually on heavily laden Defenders, and seem to be 110's. All with no or little history attached. I have seen maybe 3 to 5 picks.

Pat believes us keyboard jocks are wasting our time by swapping out a P38.

However from my observation from warranty claims on the P38 within the Tdci build run, there has been significantly more issues with them then posted Sals breaking. Some unlucky people have had 5 P38's replaced under warranty. My drive line banged 2 to 3 times with every gear change, it has no bangs with the Sals. LR were not interested in fixing the bangs and said that is normal.

From my reading the P38's issue is pinion length, and it's relation to movement on it;s short bearing mounts, in relation to heavy loads or towing. The movement flogs the gears and bearing out and it all fails. Perhaps pre Tdci have better build quality, but if you are going remote, with family, or work, than the piece of mind knowing a late build P38 is no longer under the truck is worth the conversion. $2500 to rebuild a Sals is expansive, but not as expansive as a ruined holiday.

I too have been spooked by the broken Sals pics, wondering if I had gone backwards. But the shear volume of Sals that have been sold over the years, to my mind, occasionally one has to to break from fatigue and abuse.

At the risk of starting an e-fight, which is not my intention, it appears that any issues around poor P38 build quality (from LR) can be addressed by improving the build quality at relatively low cost i.e. a rebuild by an experienced diff specialist.

Issues relating to the design (to the extent they are a material consideration) can be addressed via the Ashcroft long-pinion conversion.

I get the impression that it is slowly becoming quicker/easier/cheaper to strengthen a P38 than swap in a Sal.

Note, that I'm not suggesting that swapping in a Sal isn't a good upgrade.

Hopefully this is useful to the OP.

[isuzurover]

Does anyone know how many of the failures were the "heavy duty" Salisbury that has thicker walls, or even how many were 130's?

...

All the failures I have seen or know of (about 5 now) were the lighter wall 110 diff.

[newhue]

At the risk of starting an e-fight, which is not my intention, it appears that any issues around poor P38 build quality (from LR) can be addressed by improving the build quality at relatively low cost i.e. a rebuild by an experienced diff specialist.

Issues relating to the design (to the extent they are a material consideration) can be addressed via the Ashcroft long-pinion conversion.

I get the impression that it is slowly becoming quicker/easier/cheaper to strengthen a P38 than swap in a Sal.

Note, that I'm not suggesting that swapping in a Sal isn't a good upgrade.

Hopefully this is useful to the OP.

No worries, at the time Ashcroft had done nothing, or indicated he was actually doing anything. It was a concept. As it turns out the week I ordered my Detroit and bought the Sals, Ashcroft released his work. I also had just sold the Ashcroft locker I had for the P38. When I say $2500 for a Sals, that is locker, axels, flanges, bearing, brakes and and seals. Not sure of all thy current cost, but I think at the time to build a P38 with Ashcroft was similar. There was also the fact it was a new product. Yes Ashcroft make some good gear as I have half of it. But a new casting that should work had not actually been in the field as yet. I was doing the Madigan and just didn't want the hassle of a potential break down regardless of who was paying for it.

Maybe if I were to do it again I would lengthen the piñon of a P38. And an air locker is a nice option. But the Sals has been good for me, and the constant Detroit I can't fail in the applications I have used it in.

[newhue]

No need to take up fishing,I do all my taking from out in the bush,not behind a keyboard,doing the connie sue and anne beadell in three weeks in shock horror,a ford engined P38 diffed factory stock defender.What will you be doing?. Pat

Hows that decat pipe your working on.

[n plus one]

No worries, at the time Ashcroft had done nothing, or indicated he was actually doing anything. It was a concept. As it turns out the week I ordered my Detroit and bought the Sals, Ashcroft released his work. I also had just sold the Ashcroft locker I had for the P38. When I say $2500 for a Sals, that is locker, axels, flanges, bearing, brakes and and seals. Not sure of all thy current cost, but I think at the time to build a P38 with Ashcroft was similar. There was also the fact it was a new product. Yes Ashcroft make some good gear as I have half of it. But a new casting that should work had not actually been in the field as yet. I was doing the Madigan and just didn't want the hassle of a potential break down regardless of who was paying for it.

Maybe if I were to do it again I would lengthen the piñon of a P38. And an air locker is a nice option. But the Sals has been good for me, and the constant Detroit I can't fail in the applications I have used it in.

Yeah, fair call - I don't like the idea of being a beta tester either. In the end I decided to wait for the dust to settle around Ashcrofts conversion (still waiting :D) - but my P38 is holding up, so that's something I guess!

[newhue]

Yeah, fair call - I don't like the idea of being a beta tester either. In the end I decided to wait for the dust to settle around Ashcrofts conversion (still waiting :D) - but my P38 is holding up, so that's something I guess!

I mean it ****s me the idea even has to be coined. And there is no harm sticking with the original if you have confidence. There is a 10K start price for the tow bill which also had a bit to do with. These trucks have been in production for a while now and their biggest problem is being hand made. Not sure where the diffs come from but it looks like from 2012 there may be a bit more reliability. And getting my P38 independently serviced didn't remove the potential pinion movement under big loads.
It's a funny balance though. When I first got mine I'd read things on here and took it as gospel. And there are many good knowledgeable people on here with loads of experience. But over time I have become more selective with what I change. The reality of the potential issue, my own view with the current thinking or planing, and how much gain one gets from the cash outlay.
Aftermarket can be good, but there is a fair bit of "market-ing" in aftermarket. And people don't often say they blew it and wasted their money. That's not a swipe at Ashcroft at all, Dave just seems to make good stuff and it's there if you want it.
But I see no need to upgrade the rover front diff. It's not a great piece of work either, but is less problematic or has far less reported issues than the Tdci's P38's. I also at the time, didn't think the Rover diff would last on the Madigan if the P38 let go, so hence a widely reported robust Sals.

go on, you know you want to, it's only money:D

[Bush65]

... I do all my taking from out in the bush,not behind a keyboard ...
Pat
Pat wants us to believe this makes his take on the subject more credible. IMO he is naive, it does no such thing.

If we examine the failure evidence and compare Salisbury, "P38" style diffs and for good measure "Rover" diffs it becomes clear that these three fail in different ways and circumstances.

Salisbury is an adaptation of the Dana 60 axle. Dana is part of the Hardy Spicer group, producing a large range of axles for many types of vehicles from cars, through to trucks and large earth moving vehicles. Although they don't have Pat's expertise, or do their taking out in the bush, it is fair to assume that they know what they are doing when it comes to drive axles.

Refer to the following pic (copy and paste of a small part from their "Condensed Specifications Axles, Transaxles, Driveshafts, Transmissions,
Torque Converters, and Electronic Controls" catalogue) for the particular range that includes the Dana 60.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68250&stc=1&d=1383800170
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68233&stc=1&d=1383776872
Note in this catalogue, the Dana 60 has a 1500 kg load rating in both the semi-float rear and front axle versions, or 2700 kg load rating in the full-float rear axle version. We should not conclude that all Dana 60's have these ratings, as Dana may have made changes to suit the customer's specific requirements - for example diameter of half shafts does differ.

The Salisbury version produced for 110 and 130 Defenders (full-float axle BTW) came in two versions to which The following pic (copy and paste from a Land Rover manual for the range of TD5 Defender Cab chassis vehicles) shows a rear axle load rating of 1850 kg (110 Standard), or 2200 kg (110 Heavy Duty and 130).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68234&stc=1&d=1383777345http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68251&stc=1&d=1383800170

The following 2 pics (cut and paste from LR manual list the Salisbury versions, first pic for drum brake versions and second for disc brake versions.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68235&stc=1&d=1383779736http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68252&stc=1&d=1383800170

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68236&stc=1&d=1383779957http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68253&stc=1&d=1383800170

Note: the Salisbury axle may have been changed again for Defenders after the printing of the particular parts manual that I copied those pics from, but anyone looking at the serial number stamped on the axle tube of a Salisbury can conclude the following:
21S - was a standard 110 Salisbury with drums (FTC2352)
24S - was a HD 110, or 130, Salisbury with drums (FTC2353)
39S - was a standard 110 Salisbury with discs (FTC3304)
38S - was a HD 110, or 130, Salisbury with discs (FTC3232)Now one thing that has been confirmed by others (I don't know if they went out into the bush to take this) the Salisbury used in 130's has thicker axle tubes, so it is fair to assume it was to achieve the higher load rating.

What hasn't been confirmed is whether any of these thicker axle tubes have failed. We have seen pics of failed axle tubes in 110's that were obviously heavily loaded. We can't tell if any were the HD version or whether their axle load exceeded that stipulated by Land Rover.

Apart from those small numbers of axle tube failures, the only Salisbury failures I'm aware of are half shafts; breakage or spline wear. It should be noted that the same diameter half shaft is used with the P38 and Rover style axle assemblies so no advantage to any one of those as they all suffer the same, i.e. dead heat as far as half shafts go.

As far as breakage goes the stock 24 spline shafts are on the small size, but adequate for most users and stockish diameter tyres.

For those who want to drive harder and/or use larger tyres, there are aftermarket replacements that are stronger (same diameter, but stronger material). For even stronger half shafts it is reasonably easy (just $$$$) to upgrade to 35 spline, an option not easy or practical with P38 or Rover diffs.

The diff in a Salisbury, with 248mm (9.75") ring gear/crown wheel, is overkill for almost all Land Rovers, and should not fail if maintained.

I'm not aware of how the Salisbury has performed in the "Perentie" used by the Australian Army. And it is worth noting that for a heavy duty front axle they changed the Rover housing to a construction similar to the Salisbury.

However it should be pointed out that the "Wolf" used by the British changed to the P38 style rear axle. IIRC Dave Ashcroft has said something to the effect that this change was made because it was easier to strengthen the all steel P38 housing than the steel plus cast iron Salisbury housing.

This implies, for their required duty, a strength issue with Salisbury housing, but also stock P38 housings require strengthening. So perhaps changing the Salisbury from a 130, to a P38 from a "Puma" will not immediately gain a stronger housing. However the "Puma" axle housing can be strengthened and made stronger than the Salisbury - the same comment should apply to the "Rover" axle housing. So not benefit to "P38" over "Rover" in the housing issue.

If I had a 130 with Salisbury, would I change it to a P38 from a TD5 or "Puma" Defender to gain a stronger axle housing? Nope, and BTW I have a 120 that came with the weaker 21S housing, and neither will it get changed to a "problematic", "P38 style" - I need rear diff problems like I need a hole in the head.

The following pic is a copy and paste from a MY12 workshop manual and shows the axle load ratings for 110 and 130 Defenders. It begs the question, if a rear axle from a 110 "Puma" was used to replace the Salisbury in a 130, would the GVM and allowable rear axle load be reduced to that of the 110 that the axle came from? Going from the information in that pic the answer would be yes. However if you could show that the 110 axle assembly was the same part as the 130 axle assembly then that should not be an issue - I don't have a parts book for the "Puma" to check if that is the case, but I wouldn't be surprised if the only change for a higher axle load in the 130 was the suspension springs.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68240&stc=1&d=1383789922http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68254&stc=1&d=1383800170

Land Rover used the "Rover" diff from the beginning of the RRC, the Disco 1 and D90. They had good reason (the weak 2 pinion diff centre) not to use it for the rear of 110's and 130's. I'm sure they anticipated/expected the 4 pinion centre that they used in the "P38" diff would make it strong enough for use in the rear of a 110 or 130. However they were too optimistic, the 4 pinion diff centre was OK. but the crown wheel flexes too much and so does the pinion because its bearings are not far enough apart.

Regarding the following quote from newhue:

From my reading the P38's issue is pinion length, and it's relation to movement on it;s short bearing mounts, in relation to heavy loads or towing. The movement flogs the gears and bearing out and it all fails. Perhaps pre Tdci have better build quality, but if you are going remote, with family, or work, than the piece of mind knowing a late build P38 is no longer under the truck is worth the conversion ...And this from n plus one:

... it appears that any issues around poor P38 build quality (from LR) can be addressed by improving the build quality at relatively low cost i.e. a rebuild by an experienced diff specialist.

Issues relating to the design (to the extent they are a material consideration) can be addressed via the Ashcroft long-pinion conversion.

I get the impression that it is slowly becoming quicker/easier/cheaper to strengthen a P38 than swap in a Sal. ...Basically I agree with those points, but want to add the following:

As far as I can tell, most of the replacements under warrantee were for noise issues, and some ran in that condition for a reasonable length of time before the diff could be replaced. They hadn't failed catastrophically. It certainly looks like most of those were a result of poor assembly, or some issue with the quality of the gear cutting.

The problem that arises from the short pinion, or more to the point, the small separation between the pinion bearings, is that if the bearing pre-load is too loose, either initial set-up, bearing wear, or both, results in greater misalignment of the mating gear teeth. The strength of gear teeth is greatly reduced by misalignment and tooth breakage will occur under a lower load/torque and wear is also more rapid. The misalignment and increased backlash also result in higher dynamic tooth loads.

Noise is a result of loss of conjugate action and the dynamic tooth loads. It is a warning that should be headed for what tells you about you diff, not something that you should ignore.

IIRC, leaking pinion seals are another common problem with the P38 diff. This can be caused by the same bearing and pinion alignment issues. These seals are designed to keep oil in and contaminants (dust, water, etc) out. If the seal leaks oil, then they might be letting contaminants in - the biggest causes of bearing wear are poor lubrication (e.g. from loss of oil), and contamination (e.g. dust).

Now if the P38 diff is known to be good, i.e. doesn't leak oil, no play in the pinion shaft, runs quiet, doesn't get abnormally hot, etc., and you will not be abusing it, then there is no reason why you should not take off into a remote area for a few weeks, with reasonable confidence. There should be warning signs in time to change your plans and avoid disaster. If for example if you get to Mount Dare, and the noise is getting worse, or the pinion seal has started leaking, then you should be checking your oil levels and for play in pinion, etc. If these are not right I would be thinking twice about heading off on the Madigan line, or even one of the shorter, popular Simpson crossings.

It is a different situation if you want to tackle hard tracks, then the strength of the P38 diff is found wanting. This is as much an issue with the TD5's as the Puma's. IIRC Max broke 2 diffs in Tusker before he bit the bullet and replaced the axle assembly with a Salisbury.

The Ashcroft replacement, long pinion, diff looks like it will be a reasonable (though $$$$) solution, and aftermarket 24 spline half shafts will set the load limit which they can handle (same boat as Salisbury).

The failure mode of the "Rover" diff is usually begins with wear of the bores supporting the shaft for the two pinions in the diff centre. This leads to a broken shaft and/or gears.

The fix is easy. Fit a locker, or ATB centre. Then the stock 24 spline half shafts will be the weak link. Fit stronger aftermarket half shafts and the crown wheel and pinion becomes the weal link. Fit stronger Ashcroft CW&P and you are level pegging with the Salisbury or Ashcroft Special P38 with aftermarket half shafts. However one advantage over the Ashcroft Special P38, is that if you do experience a diff failure, a readily available, second hand diff centre will soon get you back on the road.

To my way of thinking, if you are only going to run 24 spline half shafts (stock or aftermarket), and maximum 33" tyres, a level which will apply to most on here, then it is a line ball upgrade between fitting a Salisbury, replacing the P38 diff with the Ashcroft long pinion diff, or fitting a rear axle from a Disco 1 or RRC that has been upgraded.

The other alternative is to maintain the P38 diff, which will required the diff to be out more frequently than the previous 3 options. It will never be as robust, will suit many, but not all.

[isuzurover]

Pat wants us to believe this makes his take on the subject more credible. IMO he is naive, it does no such thing.
...

Don't worry John, he just seems to have an inability to criticise any product made by Landrover. I did a search once while bored and I think he holds the AULRO record for number of posts criticising toyotas.

If we were comparing a salisbury to a Dana60 he would be telling us why the sals is better...

As pointed out by newhue, that doesn't stop him fitting a decat pipe and tuning chip...

[Bush65]

Don't worry John, he just seems to have an inability to criticise any product made by Landrover. I did a search once while bored and I think he holds the AULRO record for number of posts criticising toyotas.

If we were comparing a salisbury to a Dana60 he would be telling us why the sals is better...

As pointed out by newhue, that doesn't stop him fitting a decat pipe and tuning chip...
what I found amusing (must be bored) is that he bought a Defender with the 2.2 litre engine. The 2.2 engine was designed by Mazda (according to Wikipedia), but has had the fuel injection upgraded (higher pressure. You no doubt are away that he is in gold medal contention for bagging Japanese products.

However he made a point of declaring he has a Ford engine - could be argued on the basis of Fords ownership of Mazda.

[n plus one]

But I see no need to upgrade the rover front diff. It's not a great piece of work either, but is less problematic or has far less reported issues than the Tdci's P38's. I also at the time, didn't think the Rover diff would last on the Madigan if the P38 let go, so hence a widely reported robust Sals.

Aw crap, now I really am gunna' sound like I'm being a difficult bugger!:D

In my experience, the front Rover is the weaker link of the two and the one I'd upgrade first. There's been a number fail dramatically that I'm aware of and my front was (almost) one of them - I dropped the oil pre my Simpson crossing and found a handful of metal chunks - spider gear pin had sheared but hadn't quite got free enough to cause full scale destruction :eek:

I really think this diff is the one to be most worried about - if only due to the rapid nature of the failure. Obviously a 4 pin carrier is a cheap and highly effective way to address this one - fortunately I already had a complete ATB equipped carrier sitting in the shed!

[Sitec]

Ford engine... :D That puts images in my head of Transit Vans and Fordson Major tractors! :wasntme: Re Salisburys, I love them... The 101 has two of them, with oversized axle shafts to suit. I have no idea how thick the axle casing is, but I know that if I ever break one....there won't be much of the 101 left! I'm hoping that the Salisburys will have a better chance of handling the 200+ hp and 500+nm of torque that the new engine will turn out... I know a Rover Diff wouldn't be to happy with that. Interesting to here the opinions so far tho! :)

[Steve Td5 130]

Hi Simon

Have you had a look at the tread talking about the ford 9" diffs that have been made for a defender.
If I had the money that would be the path I would go down:)

Cheers

Steve





Ford engine... :D That puts images in my head of Transit Vans and Fordson Major tractors! :wasntme: Re Salisburys, I love them... The 101 has two of them, with oversized axle shafts to suit. I have no idea how thick the axle casing is, but I know that if I ever break one....there won't be much of the 101 left! I'm hoping that the Salisburys will have a better chance of handling the 200+ hp and 500+nm of torque that the new engine will turn out... I know a Rover Diff wouldn't be to happy with that. Interesting to here the opinions so far tho! :)

[uninformed]

is the 38s or the 39s going to be stamped on the axle housing somewhere?

[Sitec]

This pic is why I love the Salisbury over the Rover... Bazinga! :)

[Bush65]

is the 38s or the 39s going to be stamped on the axle housing somewhere?
It is stamped on the long side axle tube.

[uninformed]

I cant find it on mine, Im guessing it was behind the MD actuator or stone guard…

I dont know if the HD housing was standard on 110 Cab chassis? I was hoping, but my gut says no. Id say if it did have the 39s, it would also have the little extra webs etc that the some of the suspension mounts have on the 130s

[Bush65]

I cant find it on mine, Im guessing it was behind the MD actuator or stone guard…

I dont know if the HD housing was standard on 110 Cab chassis? I was hoping, but my gut says no. Id say if it did have the 39s, it would also have the little extra webs etc that the some of the suspension mounts have on the 130s
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=68358&stc=1&d=1384027165

In that drawing for non TD5 rear axle, see how they drew the location of the breather relative to the right side of the string of numbers - that is exactly how mine is.

In my long post above, the pic of Salisbury axle loads came from a document for the 110 and 130 Cab Chassis and it shows both standard and heavy duty 110's. So unless JRA in their wisdom decided to only bring in the HD version, then you may have the standard version.

If the Maxi-Drive actuator is in the number location, one would hope the installer would have re-stamped the number somewhere else. However if you remove the breather then you can get a good idea of the wall thickness of the axle tube where the tapping is. IIRC the wall thickness is approximately 6mm (standard 110) vs 8mm (HD 110 or standard 130).

Edit: "21S", etc are the prefix of a longer number. On mine (21S) the stamped numbers are approximately 10mm high.

[newhue]

Aw crap, now I really am gunna' sound like I'm being a difficult bugger!:D

In my experience, the front Rover is the weaker link of the two and the one I'd upgrade first. There's been a number fail dramatically that I'm aware of and my front was (almost) one of them - I dropped the oil pre my Simpson crossing and found a handful of metal chunks - spider gear pin had sheared but hadn't quite got free enough to cause full scale destruction :eek:

I really think this diff is the one to be most worried about - if only due to the rapid nature of the failure. Obviously a 4 pin carrier is a cheap and highly effective way to address this one - fortunately I already had a complete ATB equipped carrier sitting in the shed!

Yeh I know......but I could't be bothered worrying about it. I do understand however it can jamb and run me off the road so better get out the torch and have a look. See how it's travelling at least. Just spent the weekend at Landcruiser Mountain Park. Just amazed what a Defer will do with a locker in the bum. So sure footed, so predictable, so slow and safe. Kinda takes just about all the uncertainty out of things and leaves just the fun. Climbed Telstra hill like it was a little mound. That anti stall also is a hidden gem. The front diff performed faultlessly as did everything. Might save some pennies for a ATB or Tru Trac, but certainly doesn't need it for more capability with what I do.

[Landy86]

Does the 130 have traction control aswell

[newhue]

Does the 130 have traction control aswell

na, no traction or ABS, just two traditional open diffs. I think I most likely would have got 85% of where I went anyway, but with a lot more wheel spinning, momentum, and attempts required.
I sold the idea of a locker to the wife as a safety thing, which it truly is, amongst other things.

[cal415]

I have just done the p38 rear to sals conversion, although i did mine a little different upgrading the centre to a dana60 HD and custom 35 spline axles which was a bit more work but worthwhile considering i would have had to upgrade the centre and axles anyway.

I wouldnt have bothered if i thought i could rely on the p38 diff, in a heavily loaded 130 towing a heavy camper through some serious terrain. Although mine has never given me issues the change certainly took some slop out of the drive line, and i personally know several people that have had multiple failures and swaps of p38 rears in defenders under warranty, and this is in vehicles that haven't been abused offroad, on the other hand though i have have seen 100's of sals getting hammered off road and only seen a handfull of failures - primarily broken axles.

As for clearance, with a bit of a shave a sals its pretty damn close in clearance to a rover diff, certainly a price i am willing to pay to have a strong reliable diff.

PAT303 we should test the diffs under stess test, my sals rear diff loaded up against your p38 rear increasing in load and see which fails first....

[MLD]

Quest: would a standard tube sals from a 110 be suitable for a 130?

I plan to buy a Puma 130 and currently have a maxi built sals in the rear of my 110 that i'd like to swap over if/when the acquisition is made. The plan is to make it a tough tourer to carry a slide on box when touring but not loaded to the GVM.

The alternate Q, how hard is it to find a 130 sals? Still be a pain to cut and weld the actuator into a new diff housing.

MLD

[isuzurover]

Quest: would a standard tube sals from a 110 be suitable for a 130?

I plan to buy a Puma 130 and currently have a maxi built sals in the rear of my 110 that i'd like to swap over if/when the acquisition is made. The plan is to make it a tough tourer to carry a slide on box when touring but not loaded to the GVM.

The alternate Q, how hard is it to find a 130 sals? Still be a pain to cut and weld the actuator into a new diff housing.

MLD

You could laminate (sleeve) the 110 housing internally, however it probably wouldn't be as strong as a 130 housing.

There are plenty of aftermarket bracing kits for a D60 that will fit a sals, however many are poorly designed and many would foul the tank or the suspension links.

[Bush65]

Quest: would a standard tube sals from a 110 be suitable for a 130?

I plan to buy a Puma 130 and currently have a maxi built sals in the rear of my 110 that i'd like to swap over if/when the acquisition is made. The plan is to make it a tough tourer to carry a slide on box when touring but not loaded to the GVM.

The alternate Q, how hard is it to find a 130 sals? Still be a pain to cut and weld the actuator into a new diff housing.

MLD
You said it won't be loaded to the GVM, how would the rear axle load compare to the rating of a 110 rear axle?

I have given the rear axle ratings of 110 and 130 in an earlier post.

[2stroke]

I've had a Maxi equipped 110 Salisbury in the 130 for years now, got it cheap, was on a drum brake 200Tdi trayback so I used my discs and maxi short axle and drive flanges, just had to buy a long locking axle.
I've done a lot of desert work (including the Simpson and Canning) at GVM without incident.
It's always in the back of my mind though. I still have the original 130 Sals in the shed but the only locker I could afford to put in it is a Detroit or Airlocker. Since I prefer the Maxi, I've just left it there. So far so good.:angel:

[TonyC]

I've had a Maxi equipped 110 Salisbury in the 130 for years now, got it cheap, was on a drum brake 200Tdi trayback so I used my discs and maxi short axle and drive flanges, just had to buy a long locking axle.
I've done a lot of desert work (including the Simpson and Canning) at GVM without incident.
It's always in the back of my mind though. I still have the original 130 Sals in the shed but the only locker I could afford to put in it is a Detroit or Airlocker. Since I prefer the Maxi, I've just left it there. So far so good.:angel:

Why can't you pt the Maxi in the 130 housing?

Tony

[steveG]

I've had a Maxi equipped 110 Salisbury in the 130 for years now, got it cheap, was on a drum brake 200Tdi trayback so I used my discs and maxi short axle and drive flanges, just had to buy a long locking axle.
I've done a lot of desert work (including the Simpson and Canning) at GVM without incident.
It's always in the back of my mind though. I still have the original 130 Sals in the shed but the only locker I could afford to put in it is a Detroit or Airlocker. Since I prefer the Maxi, I've just left it there. So far so good.:angel:

Have you had a stub axle off the Maxi one?
Its possible that its had the full treatment with an extra strengthening tube welded inside.

Steve

[MLD]

You said it won't be loaded to the GVM, how would the rear axle load compare to the rating of a 110 rear axle?

I have given the rear axle ratings of 110 and 130 in an earlier post.

Thanks John,

My unloaded (city driving) combined F&R axle weight is +- 2,350 kgs. That includes steel bar, winch, sliders, roof rack, heavier than OEM Gwyn Lewis suspension parts, HD prop shafts, 5 x 33" muddies.

I haven't weighed the 110 fully loaded but i did Cape York for 4 weeks and packed all my equipment below the lower window level of the cargo area and a RTT and second spare on the roof.

For the 130 I plan to swap all the bits listed above across including an Alu canopy on a tray for touring trips. I'd fit a water tank and extra fuel tank (but I carried extra water and fuel in the Cape so the difference would be the weight of the container). I didn't use the available space in the 110 for the Cape so I can't imagine I'd pack any more stuff merely because i have more storage.

The real Question is whether, under the 130, the Sals 110 axle with the maxi set up is a stronger than rebuilding a R38 diff with ashcroft goodies.

cheers MLD

[2stroke]

Why can't you pt the Maxi in the 130 housing?

Tony
Because I'd have to cut a hole in a tube, buy an actuator block and weld it on, all perfectly doable but not simply bolt work.

[2stroke]

Have you had a stub axle off the Maxi one?
Its possible that its had the full treatment with an extra strengthening tube welded inside.

Steve
I've had to pull off a stub a couple times to remove the locking axle, best take more notice next time.:angel:

[steveG]

I've had to pull off a stub a couple times to remove the locking axle, best take more notice next time.:angel:

This is what a tubed one looks like (photo courtesy of Rijidij):
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/09/1091.jpg

Steve

[c.h.i.e.f]

I've had 2 p38 rears replaced under warranty and the 3rd was heading down the same path that was in a 110 my new 130 doesn't seem to have as many noises coming from the rear which I have put down to 2 things...1.the 130 does not have traction control which may have placed just enough extra strain on the centre to make them fail quicker or 2.the 130 diff is 20" further away from my ear :D ...for a new diff they are noisy compared to the old sals...I'd pick the sals any day over the new ones...can't comment on rear axle strength really as i always seem to break front right cv's on all my rovers with stock or below stock size tyres :angel:

[LowRanger]

Quest: would a standard tube sals from a 110 be suitable for a 130?

I plan to buy a Puma 130 and currently have a maxi built sals in the rear of my 110 that i'd like to swap over if/when the acquisition is made. The plan is to make it a tough tourer to carry a slide on box when touring but not loaded to the GVM.

The alternate Q, how hard is it to find a 130 sals? Still be a pain to cut and weld the actuator into a new diff housing.

MLD

Mark

My 130 has Rear Salisbury and front Rover diff out of an 85 110 County,and no problems;)

[isuzutoo-eh]

I've had 2 p38 rears replaced under warranty and the 3rd was heading down the same path that was in a 110 my new 130 doesn't seem to have as many noises coming from the rear which I have put down to 2 things...1.the 130 does not have traction control which may have placed just enough extra strain on the centre to make them fail quicker or 2.the 130 diff is 20" further away from my ear :D ...for a new diff they are noisy compared to the old sals...I'd pick the sals any day over the new ones...can't comment on rear axle strength really as i always seem to break front right cv's on all my rovers with stock or below stock size tyres :angel:

There's also a few years difference in build date between your 110 and 130, maybe they've started setting them up properly! :angel:

[c.h.i.e.f]

There's also a few years difference in build date between your 110 and 130, maybe they've started setting them up properly! :angel:

That is also a good point you have there...terrible diff still

[Bush65]

...
However it should be pointed out that the "Wolf" used by the British changed to the P38 style rear axle. IIRC Dave Ashcroft has said something to the effect that this change was made because it was easier to strengthen the all steel P38 housing than the steel plus cast iron Salisbury housing.

This implies, for their required duty, a strength issue with Salisbury housing, but also stock P38 housings require strengthening. So perhaps changing the Salisbury from a 130, to a P38 from a "Puma" will not immediately gain a stronger housing. However the "Puma" axle housing can be strengthened and made stronger than the Salisbury - the same comment should apply to the "Rover" axle housing. So not benefit to "P38" over "Rover" in the housing issue.
...
Here is a pic showing the reinforced P38 axle assembly in a Land Rover Wolf
http://scaleplasticandrail.com/kaboom/images/stories/hobbyboss/landroverXD/1/DSCF0558.jpg

The following quote Copied and pasted from Wikipedia Land Rover Wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Reinforced rear axle

The testing was extremely rigorous and Salisbury axles kept breaking, the axle was redesigned using stronger internals, hubs and outer casing, making one of the strongest axles ever made.
Not particularly good technical detail there, but indicates the P38 needed beefing up to survive the military testing.

It certainly doesn't put to rest the questions of which is the stronger or more robustness between a 130 Salisbury and a 110 or 130 P38 axle in civilian form.