ABC, Catalyst and cholesterol.

[Petetheprinta]

Having had 2 heart attacks:( Angioplasty:(:(and a triple bypass:(:(:( I watched with interest ABC's CATALYST programs on statin medication. As a result I have decided to stop my statin medication which I have been taking for the last 20 years. I won't bore forumites with my reasons for this decision.

I am interested to hear other peoples reaction to the program (only if you watched it of course).
I am also interested in knowing what other members are doing to reduce their cholesterol levels if high cholesterol is a problem for you.
Thanks, Pete.

[Judo]

Hi Pete,

I did watch it with great interest. I'm not that old and don't (as far as I know) have a cholesterol problem. I thought there was a lot of good points, but like everything, I take it with a grain of salt. I hope you're doing the same! :)

The key message I took away in relation to Statin's specifically was that Statin's work for some people and it would be dangerous if they stopped taking them. However there are also a large number of people taking Statin's that don't need to, have no health benefit in taking them and have introduced side effects and other risks by taking them.

I thought there was a greater key message though - particularly if you are looking for an alternative to Statin's - and that is to focus on your diet and understand that there is a high possibility that nutritional guidelines in relation to cholesterol we've been following for years are wrong. A lot of the reasons these particular guidelines were implemented were political and commercial reasons, not scientific.

If you want to align your diet to the "new way of thinking", you need to avoid simple carbs (sugar), but most fats and oils are OK (in moderation of course).

Here is a related article that might interest you. Sweden has changed their guidelines which now closely align to what was said on Catalyst part 1 of the cholesterol special.

Sweden Becomes First Western Nation to Reject Low-fat Diet Dogma in Favor of Low-carb High-fat Nutrition | Health Impact News (http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-western-nation-to-reject-low-fat-diet-dogma-in-favor-of-low-carb-high-fat-nutrition/)

FYI This has been my diet for some time now, and I believe I'm healthier for it.


Can I ask what your diet is like and has been over the years in relation to carbs and fats?

[ramblingboy42]

Pete, I'm with you on this one and I am type2 diabetic and take vytorin to keep my cholesterol low..even though its not high.... I have just been participating in a self management awareness program run by Medicare Local with accredited facilitators. They do not get involved in any allopathic v natural arguments but very strongly recommend diet awareness...push leafy greens and FRESH foods and recommend lots of self monitoring. There is a new Australian Guide to Healthy Eating available either from Medicare Local or online from Australian Govt. The facilitators recommend adopting the new eating guidelines and continuing on your prescribed medications until you see the visible difference...hence monitoring and recording. I used to hate most of those multi-coloured leafy greens, but theyre really the ducks guts and I eat plenty. My weight is falling and it looks like my blood glucose levels are improving and I am feeling so good I'm dangerous. In a few weeks I will shake the Vytorin for good myself. My doc will see my results and just agree.

** I have no idea why I wrote Vytorin......I use EZETROL....apologies to anyone I may have mislead.....

[NavyDiver]

One of my five doctors mentioned the data was highly selective- all the others agreed.

Clearly some of the first programs damming arguments are well worth further study. The second program is another kettle of fish i.m.o.

Cholesterol | Better Health Channel (http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Cholesterol_explained) has the same point and did before the ABC announced it as some conspiracy theory. The expert talking about the fact your body creates it own cholesterol making this a scandal???

"You do not need cholesterol in your diet

You don’t need to eat foods that contain cholesterol. Your body can produce all the cholesterol it needs. High cholesterol foods are often foods that are also high in saturated fats. These foods should be limited in a healthy diet." this commonly known and no scandal.

What to believe is your choice. I would seek a opinion with less bias and using a lot less sensationalism. I love catalyst. Even they can be lead by people with strong opinions. I prefer strong facts myself.

[rover-56]

I thought it was a balanced story. Interesting about the fudged data in part 1.
The story reinforced suspicions I have had for many years re the influence of big drug companies. Always pays to look into things a bit deeper when big money is involved.

My total cholesterol has been around 6.5 to 7.0 for many years and I am annually encouraged to start on Statins. Still resisting.

Years ago I shared a house for a year with 3 vegetarians, and because I was outnumbered I mostly ate what they ate. My total cholesterol went up to 8.

Following year after leaving that household, and MANY lovely fry-ups, Total C went back to 6.6.

Interesting.

Terry

[Chucaro]

It was a very good program and reinforced my opinion about the atorvastatin calcium drugs. I was disappointed that they do not mentioned
the fenofibrate group (Lipidil among them) which are as bad.
I also was irritated about the arrogance of the Heart Foundation's chief executive Dr Lyn Roberts who asked ABC to not put the program to air.
It appears that we, the public are a bunch of ignorant people that do not have the right to be informed.
About 10 years ago I was prescribed Lipitor which have to be stopped because affected my memory. The doctor prescribed Crestor a drug some the same group which produced muscular pain.
That have to be stopped as well and for the las 5 years I was under Lipidil which started affecting my concentration.
Apart from these side effects and the ones mentioned in the program fenofibrate can cause renal failure and a severe pancreatic attack!!
I do not tkae nothing at the moment and wait for dracula's blood test results to see if under a good diet my liver still producing to much cholesterol to bring it over 6.5
If it is bad I will s tart taking Red yeast rice which contains several compounds collectively known as monacolins, substances known to inhibit cholesterol synthesis. One of these, "monacolin K," is a potent inhibitor of HMG-CoA reductase, and is also known as mevinolin or lovastatin

[Petetheprinta]

Here is a related article that might interest you. Sweden has changed their guidelines which now closely align to what was said on Catalyst part 1 of the cholesterol special.

Sweden Becomes First Western Nation to Reject Low-fat Diet Dogma in Favor of Low-carb High-fat Nutrition | Health Impact News (http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sweden-becomes-first-western-nation-to-reject-low-fat-diet-dogma-in-favor-of-low-carb-high-fat-nutrition/)

FYI This has been my diet for some time now, and I believe I'm healthier for it.


Can I ask what your diet is like and has been over the years in relation to carbs and fats?

I have read the Swedish report previously and found it very interesting. If you pardon the pun, the ABC program was the final CATALYST in my decision to forgo the statin medication I was taking.

After my bypass (1995), I was very careful about my diet. Restricted intake, less fatty foods very little red meat (never a big meat eater) more veggies, lot more exercise etc etc. Of course as time progresses and memory dims old eating habits returned. My downfall is a sweet tooth, cakes choccies etc love em. Lotsa sugar and carbs.

For the last couple of years I have been suffering from angina again and angiograms show not much they can do about it, so I now manage what I do and how I do it and keep it under control. I have also had other health problems which I put down to the statins. CATALYST was the last factor in my decision to quit Statins.

I will try a regime of exercise and diet and known naturally occurring cholesterol lowering additives, omega 3 oil, vitamin B, niacine, oats, fibre etc etc..
Having said all that I am not silly, I will keep an eye on cholesterol levels and certainly continue dialogue with my heart specialist (who was most upset at my decision)
Pete.

[Petetheprinta]

About 10 years ago I was prescribed Lipitor which have to be stopped because affected my memory. The doctor prescribed Crestor a drug some the same group which produced muscular pain.
That have to be stopped as well and for the las 5 years I was under Lipidil which started affecting my concentration.

Just some of the symptoms I had that prompted my decision

[superquag]

Gosh, where do I start ?
- For the shrt story... I'm off statins, will NEVER take them, along with most diabetic drugs.- Have been this way for a few years now, and 'everything' has gelled in the last 12 - 18 months. Great program, and to my mind, very predictable responses from all of the 'vested interests' interviewed/shown.

Longer story.
Am a card-carrying Senior, have been Type II diabetic for around 30 years.

As per the expectation of conventional medicine, - See this link to get the full depressing picture...
Type 2 Diabetes - Diabetes Australia (http://www.diabetesaustralia.com.au/Understanding-Diabetes/What-is-Diabetes/Type-2-Diabetes/)

... I was indeed running true to form, getting worse, heavier, - was 'fat' since mid/late 20's - less fit, and after 3 lots of stents it all went pear-shaped last year when our Dept of Transport threatened to suspend/cancel my driver's licence .....

So I got angry. Beware the wrath of a Patient Man.:mad::mad::mad: I did a huge amount of research/exploring/reading and sifting stuff. - Reckon Ive read more study results than many GP's.

Bottom line for me. Everything we've been fed, no pun intended, regarding Good Diet and Eating Habits has been wrong. Or a Big Fat Lie.
I lost my fat -and still slimming - by totally going against all conventional medical advice and accepted wisdom....

I cut out the carbs. moderate protein and HEAPS of fats. Even Saturated, such as found in meat, cream in coffee and my mushrooms die very happy in their swimming pool of butter.

Yes, I eat lots of green leafy veggies and sardines, sometimes wild salmon and tuna.
No, I don't have ANY grains, or fruit, except tomatoes which are merely an excuse to consume HUGE amounts of natural SALT... and various herbal supplements such as cinnamon, turmeric, peppers cumin.

Result: Fat falling off, blood sugars (HbA1C) fallen from 11.2 - which got the Dept. of T "interested" in me - to 7.3s.... (acceptable) to 5.6 (DoT gave me another 12 monthy licence but 4 months early!)

Blood pressure is around 120/72 with NO BP medications, and 110/66 when on 1/4 of the prescribed dose... Someone tell me again how eating so much Evil Salt is sending my BP.... down. :angel:

Who gives a toss about "cholesterol"? (it's now 5.6) - Not me, not now - When I had my stents, it was 'average' range. This is not uncommon for First-Time heart attacks, around 50%.
Bet you were never told that by your GP. Or specialist.:eek:

To summarise. Being of advanced years (got a white beard and thinning hair to prove it) I have very little faith in my fellow man when money, power,pride, ego and self-importance are involved. Take for example, the diabetic drug-trial that nearly killed me. It (the trial) was a failure. But that same family of drugs is still being prescribed. Avandia

Easy encapsulation would be 3 books. The Rosedale Diet by a Dr Ron Rosedale, which gives the Science of it all.

Gary Taubes's "Why we get fat and what to do about it" which exposes the 'junk-Science' which we've been insulted with over the last 50+ years, and

"The Gabriel Method" by Jon Gabriel for the inside running on what the body can do to make us the shape and size we are.

This last one is not as silly as it sounds, because your subconscious can undo everything you throw at it. I know of someone who had gastric surgery 9 months ago. Lost weight for a few months... now is fatter than when he started. He has never faced or dealt with his Demons...

But his cholesterol is and always was in 'normal' range and balance...

[CapableCate]

Once again, lots of good advice coming your way; I will post for you here a copy of what I did in reply to similar post in January this year by Ean Austral.
The only thing I would add is that there is more and more evidence of Fructose being the particular sugar to be avoided. This is a hard one, as it is in so many pre-prepared foods, and most fruits.
NB My partner managed to reduce his reading to 4.3, and maintain it.
Here's my January post . . .

Agree with most of what said so far. See my 10 points below. The one thing that made a significant difference to my other half's levels ie dropped from 6.4 to 5.3 in 8 weeks, is an old fashioned natural remedy that tastes totally disgusting, but is an absolute life saver. I stress this is well worth doing. Have your levels tested before you start, and again when finished, and you & your Doc will be amazed!
What to do . . . Peel 30 cloves of garlic (approx. 2 bulbs), and roughly chop 5 lemons, skin & all. Place in blender if you have one, and blend to as fine as possible. Place mixture in saucepan with 1 litre of water and bring to boil, then turn off and allow to cool. NB If you don't have a blender, you'll need to chop garlic & lemons as finely as possible first. Then when mixture cools, push it through a sieve/strainer.
Take 30ml (one cough medicine measure) every night 1/2 hour before, or after dinner, for 3 weeks. Have an 8 day break, then repeat for a further 3 weeks. It is recommended you do this twice yearly/6 monthly.
What it does is it dissolves the build up of plaque in your arteries, and as an added bonus it strengthens your immune system at the same time, while not suffering any odour at all, as the lemon neutralises that effect of the garlic.
NB We cook this outside on the bbq side burner, as it stinks your house out! So if you don't have one of those types of bbq's, use a portable gas stove outside, which I'm tipping most Land Rover owners would have!!
Also . . .
1. Avoid Cholesterol reducing drugs IF possible without endangering your health, as awful side effects.
2. Start every day with porridge made from scratch with good quality Traditional Rolled Oats, not Quick/Microwave Oats.
3. Add a tablespoon of LSA (Linseed,Sunflower,Almond) meal to porridge & desertspoon of organic raisins. If you must sweeten further, use good quality honey. Try to avoid adding milk by cooking to appropriate consistency. NB LSA available from Health Food Stores, or health food section of major supermarkets. Aldi stocks excellent Organic Raisins.
4. Take minimum 2 x 1000mg/1gm good quality Fish Oil per day, and up to 4. If you can source Krill, even better, although more expensive, but doesn't make your breath smell!
5. Avoid over refined carbohydrates ie white flour products, over processed wheat products.
6. Avoid dairy altogether, and all animal fat, especially red meat. Replace with fish, especially Salmon (preferably fresh fillets), and good quality organic chicken without skin. Can have Goats cheese. Marinated Goat Fetta is a great alternative, especially in salads.
7. Up your intake of good oils, like Avocadoes and Olives.
8. Basically stick to fresh fruit and vegetables, especially salad greens and tomatoes. If exercise difficult, at least try and do a couple of 10-15 minute brisk walks each day.
9. Reduce alcohol intake or cut out altogether if possible. Avoid Beer, and sugar laden mixers like Coke. If you must have Beer, get low carbohydrate one like Pure Blonde, Carlton Dry, or Aldi's Cape Cyan Natural Blonde. If Spirit drinker, use Soda Water as mixer. All other mixers are high in sugar, and even Sodium (salt)
10. Read ingredients on everything you buy, and avoid pre processed where possible, especially if high in sugar, sodium, or animal derived fats. Good quality Vegetable oils are fine.
All the best with it; I'll be interested to know how you get on Ean.
Regards, Cate:-)

[isuzurover]

...
The only thing I would add is that there is more and more evidence of Fructose being the particular sugar to be avoided. ...

On the contrary, the best evidence to date on fructose to date disagrees with you:

Diabetes Care. 2012 Jul;35(7):1611-20. doi: 10.2337/dc12-0073.
Effect of fructose on glycemic control in diabetes: a systematic review and meta-analysis of controlled feeding trials.
Cozma AI, Sievenpiper JL, de Souza RJ, Chiavaroli L, Ha V, Wang DD, Mirrahimi A, Yu ME, Carleton AJ, Di Buono M, Jenkins AL, Leiter LA, Wolever TM, Beyene J, Kendall CW, Jenkins DJ.
Source

Clinical Nutrition and Risk Factor Modification Center, St. Michael’s Hospital, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

The effect of fructose on cardiometabolic risk in humans is controversial. We conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of controlled feeding trials to clarify the effect of fructose on glycemic control in individuals with diabetes.
RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS:

We searched MEDLINE, EMBASE, and the Cochrane Library (through 22 March 2012) for relevant trials lasting ≥7 days. Data were aggregated by the generic inverse variance method (random-effects models) and expressed as mean difference (MD) for fasting glucose and insulin and standardized MD (SMD) with 95% CI for glycated hemoglobin (HbA(1c)) and glycated albumin. Heterogeneity was assessed by the Cochran Q statistic and quantified by the I(2) statistic. Trial quality was assessed by the Heyland methodological quality score (MQS).
RESULTS:

Eighteen trials (n = 209) met the eligibility criteria. Isocaloric exchange of fructose for carbohydrate reduced glycated blood proteins (SMD -0.25 [95% CI -0.46 to -0.04]; P = 0.02) with significant intertrial heterogeneity (I(2) = 63%; P = 0.001). This reduction is equivalent to a ~0.53% reduction in HbA(1c). Fructose consumption did not significantly affect fasting glucose or insulin. A priori subgroup analyses showed no evidence of effect modification on any end point.
CONCLUSIONS:

Isocaloric exchange of fructose for other carbohydrate improves long-term glycemic control, as assessed by glycated blood proteins, without affecting insulin in people with diabetes. Generalizability may be limited because most of the trials were <12 weeks and had relatively low MQS (<8). To confirm these findings, larger and longer fructose feeding trials assessing both possible glycemic benefit and adverse metabolic effects are required.

As for your quoted post - fish oil is good for your heart, but evidence is mounting that it is bad for everything else (prostate cancer, dementia, etc...).
Oily fish is good, however fish oil is proving to be not so good overall.

As for Statins and Cholesterol,... I am sitting on the fence until I have reviewed more research.

[CapableCate]

On the contrary, the best evidence to date on fructose to date disagrees with you:


As for your quoted post - fish oil is good for your heart, but evidence is mounting that it is bad for everything else (prostate cancer, dementia, etc...).
Oily fish is good, however fish oil is proving to be not so good overall.

As for Statins and Cholesterol,... I am sitting on the fence until I have reviewed more research.

Fair enough regarding Fructose in relation to diabetes, and if I can find the items I read a few months ago, I will post, as my memory isn't good enough to relate in any detail. However, they weren't written in reference to sugar management, but in relation to effects from combining with certain other nutrients.
Hadn't heard about the Fish Oil over all, but my partner is eating fresh Salmon regularly, and replaced the Fish Oil with Krill Oil months ago, as advised it was the better option.
Certainly in the 18 months he's been eating carefully, and has followed the Garlic/Lemon mixture regime 6 monthly, he's not only maintaining 4.2-3 reading, but has lost most of his 'middle' gut weight, and is feeling really good. He doesn't get the exercise he used to when in the field, and now operational management, desk driving, so didn't expect to have such good results without extra exercise.
There is never a 'one size, fits all' with any of the diet/supplement/medication regimes promoted, as we are all individual with various other health conditions, and different body shapes, metabolisms etc. As a general rule, I have tried to manage my conditions with a balanced approach of a little of everything in moderation, 10-15 minute brisk walk a day, and spending quality time with friends & family, helping out when ever you can, and making time to relax & appreciate the beauty and nature of our beautiful country.

[isuzurover]

...

Hadn't heard about the Fish Oil over all, but my partner is eating fresh Salmon regularly, and replaced the Fish Oil with Krill Oil months ago, as advised it was the better option.

...

Fish oil and Krill oil are both DHA (Omega 3), so when I say fish oil I am referring to both.

Prostate cancer:
Omega-3 raises prostate cancer risk › News in Science (ABC Science) (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/07/11/3801073.htm)

Below is a study which shows that impaired blood brain barrier function (a precursor to dementia) is made worse by DHA (fish / krill oil).

Int J Vasc Med. 2012; 2012: 647689.
Published online 2011 November 10. doi: 10.1155/2012/647689
PMCID: PMC3216294
A Diet Enriched in Docosahexanoic Acid Exacerbates Brain Parenchymal Extravasation of Apo B Lipoproteins Induced by Chronic Ingestion of Saturated Fats
Menuka M. Pallebage-Gamarallage, 1, 2 Virginie Lam, 1, 2 Ryusuke Takechi, 1, 2 Susan Galloway, 1, 2 and John C. L. Mamo 1, 2 *
Author information ► Article notes ► Copyright and License information ►
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:
Abstract

Chronic ingestion of saturated fatty acids (SFAs) was previously shown to compromise blood-brain barrier integrity, leading to brain parenchymal extravasation of apolipoprotein B (apo B) lipoproteins enriched in amyloid beta. In contrast, diets enriched in mono- or polyunsaturated (PUFA) oils had no detrimental effect. Rather, n3 and n6 oils generally confer protection via suppression of inflammation. This study investigated in wild-type mice if a PUFA diet enriched in docosahexanoic acid (DHA) restored blood-brain barrier integrity and attenuated parenchymal apo B abundance induced by chronic ingestion of SFA. Cerebrovascular leakage of apo B was quantitated utilising immunofluorescent staining. The plasma concentration of brain-derived S100β was measured as a marker of cerebrovascular inflammation. In mice fed SFA for 3 months, provision thereafter of a DHA-enriched diet exacerbated parenchymal apo B retention, concomitant with a significant increase in plasma cholesterol. In contrast, provision of a low-fat diet following chronic SFA feeding had no effect on SFA-induced parenchymal apo B. The findings suggest that in a heightened state of cerebrovascular inflammation, the provision of unsaturated fatty acids may be detrimental, possibly as a consequence of a greater susceptibility for oxidation.

[mikehzz]

Good grief....eating is a health hazard. I'm stopping immediately. :)

[Chucaro]

On the contrary, the best evidence to date on fructose to date disagrees with you:...............

On the other hand I agree that fructose being the particular sugar to be avoided.

The impact of fructose on renal function and blood pressure.
Kretowicz M, Johnson RJ, Ishimoto T, Nakagawa T, Manitius J.
Source

Department of Nephrology, Hypertension and Internal Medicine, Collegium Medicum in Bydgoszcz, Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń, ul. Skłodowskiej-Curie 9, 85-094 Bydgoszcz, Poland.
Abstract

Fructose is a sugar present in sucrose, high-fructose corn syrup, honey, and fruits. Fructose intake has increased markedly in the last two centuries, primarily due to increased intake of added sugars. Increasing evidence suggests that the excessive intake of fructose may induce fatty liver, insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, hypertension, and kidney disease. These studies suggest that excessive intake of fructose might have an etiologic role in the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and cardiorenal disease.

There are so many medical publications about the effects of taken fructose that we will not have a room in the server to post them.

What this bring is that we have to take research papers "with a grain of salt" and pay more attention to our body.

[Chucaro]

Good grief....eating is a health hazard. I'm stopping immediately. :)

There is not one single post about grog so it have to be safe :D

[isuzurover]

On the other hand I agree that fructose being the particular sugar to be avoided.

The impact of fructose on renal function and blood pressure.
Kretowicz M, Johnson RJ, Ishimoto T, Nakagawa T, Manitius J.
Source

Department of Nephrology, Hypertension and Internal Medicine, Collegium Medicum in Bydgoszcz, Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń, ul. Skłodowskiej-Curie 9, 85-094 Bydgoszcz, Poland.
Abstract

Fructose is a sugar present in sucrose, high-fructose corn syrup, honey, and fruits. Fructose intake has increased markedly in the last two centuries, primarily due to increased intake of added sugars. Increasing evidence suggests that the excessive intake of fructose may induce fatty liver, insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, hypertension, and kidney disease. These studies suggest that excessive intake of fructose might have an etiologic role in the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and cardiorenal disease.

There are so many medical publications about the effects of taken fructose that we will not have a room in the server to post them.

What this bring is that we have to take research papers "with a grain of salt" and pay more attention to our body.

Arthur, the paper I posted was a meta-analysis in 2012 of ALL previous papers, including your 2011 paper above.

[superquag]

From my own experience...

“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

I'm sure Dr Ancel Keys, his colleagues, disciples and the Press would be eager to assist us in sorting out which is which...

But as he does'nt own a Land Rover, his presence here is wishful thinking...:angel:

[isuzurover]

There is not one single post about grog so it have to be safe :D

Indeed, alcohol has been consumed for thousands of years, yet there is still no evidence that shows low consumption rates are harmful.

The human digestive system even produces ~1/3 of a standard drink of ethanol every day.





“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.”


That statement is repeated ad nauseum by people who don't understand statistics.

Those who do understand statistics, know that the statement itself is a lie.

[harlie]

...

I cut out the carbs. moderate protein and HEAPS of fats. Even Saturated, such as found in meat, cream in coffee and my mushrooms die very happy in their swimming pool of butter.

Yes, I eat lots of green leafy veggies and sardines, sometimes wild salmon and tuna.
No, I don't have ANY grains, or fruit, except tomatoes which are merely an excuse to consume HUGE amounts of natural SALT... and various herbal supplements such as cinnamon, turmeric, peppers cumin.

Result: Fat falling off, blood sugars (HbA1C) fallen from 11.2 - which got the Dept. of T "interested" in me - to 7.3s.... (acceptable) to 5.6 (DoT gave me another 12 monthy licence but 4 months early!)

Blood pressure is around 120/72 with NO BP medications, and 110/66 when on 1/4 of the prescribed dose... Someone tell me again how eating so much Evil Salt is sending my BP.... down. :angel:

....

Interesting. Bloke I work will swears by this as well. He has lost over 40kg this year, he's been grossly overweight his entire life. Says BP and col are still within normal.

[Judo]

A little more info.

Worried about taking statins? Here&#39;s what you need to know (http://theconversation.com/worried-about-taking-statins-heres-what-you-need-to-know-19877)

[rover-56]

Dept of Transport threatened to suspend/cancel my driver's licence

I might be a bit innocent here, but I am wondering how DoT know about your glucose levels?

Cheers,
Terry

[Chucaro]

Arthur, the paper I posted was a meta-analysis in 2012 of ALL previous papers, including your 2011 paper above.

Ben, the problem is that in 2012 more studies reveal that fructose can be a problem and some of the papers show problems with fructose .

In November 2012 a new study by USC and University of Oxford researchers indicated that large amounts of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) found in national food supplies across the world may be one explanation for the rising global epidemic of Type 2 diabetes and resulting higher health care costs.
It was published in Global Public Health, countries that use HFCS in their food supply had a 20 percent higher prevalence of diabetes than countries that did not use it. The analysis also revealed that the HFCS association with the “significantly prevalence of diabetes” occurred independent of total sugar intake and obesity levels.
It was a comprehensive research done in 42 countries.

In the way that I see it is that any unbalanced diet can have the bad side effects, in this case is the annual consumption of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) a very common ingredient in many foods and drinks.
This does not have nothing to do to fructose intolerance.

Again, I believe that paying attention to the body and having a balanced diet will reduce many of the health problems that many people suffer.

[superquag]

....Because I was such a naive goody-goody...and informed the Dept. - as required by LAW - of my medical conditions when I got my F endorsement which allows me to drive passengers for 'hire or reward'.

As such, I'm subject to a yearly medical exam, details of which must be forwarded to the Health Fiefdom of said Dept, for THEM to make the final determination as to whether I'm fit to drive, regardless of how confident your Medicos are of your continuing good health...
Previously this was as the discretion of your GP or whatever specialist you're under.
Be warned that most medical practices are computerised, and your private records are anything but. They can be 'requested' by the Dept. AFAIK, the GP cannot refuse access....

Want to see some fun? - just ask your GP what he/she thinks of the current guidlines and paperwork.:twisted: I've seen a Cardiologist actually frothing at the mouth.....:p:p:p

[Judo]

Ben, the problem is that in 2012 more studies reveal that fructose can be a problem and some of the papers show problems with fructose .

In November 2012 a new study by USC and University of Oxford researchers indicated that large amounts of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) found in national food supplies across the world may be one explanation for the rising global epidemic of Type 2 diabetes and resulting higher health care costs.
It was published in Global Public Health, countries that use HFCS in their food supply had a 20 percent higher prevalence of diabetes than countries that did not use it. The analysis also revealed that the HFCS association with the “significantly prevalence of diabetes” occurred independent of total sugar intake and obesity levels.
It was a comprehensive research done in 42 countries.

In the way that I see it is that any unbalanced diet can have the bad side effects, in this case is the annual consumption of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) a very common ingredient in many foods and drinks.
This does not have nothing to do to fructose intolerance.

Again, I believe that paying attention to the body and having a balanced diet will reduce many of the health problems that many people suffer.
Ever been to the USA? I've been to the west coast and HFCS is in EVERYTHING.

From Wiki:

Corn production (also maize production) plays a major role in the economy of the United States. The country is one of the worldwide corn leaders with 80,000,000 acres (32,000,000 ha) of land reserved for corn production. Corn growth is dominated by west/north central Iowa and east central Illinois. The US is ranked first in the world in corn production, and 20% of its annual yield is exported


Due to US-imposed tariffs,[5][citation needed] in the United States sugar prices are two to three times higher than in the rest of the world,[6] which makes HFCS significantly cheaper, so that it is the principal sweetener used in processed foods and beverages.

[rover-56]

....Because I was such a naive goody-goody...and informed the Dept. - as required by LAW - of my medical conditions when I got my F endorsement which allows me to drive passengers for 'hire or reward'.

As such, I'm subject to a yearly medical exam, details of which must be forwarded to the Health Fiefdom of said Dept, for THEM to make the final determination as to whether I'm fit to drive, regardless of how confident your Medicos are of your continuing good health...
Previously this was as the discretion of your GP or whatever specialist you're under.
Be warned that most medical practices are computerised, and your private records are anything but. They can be 'requested' by the Dept. AFAIK, the GP cannot refuse access....

Want to see some fun? - just ask your GP what he/she thinks of the current guidlines and paperwork.:twisted: I've seen a Cardiologist actually frothing at the mouth.....:p:p:p

Ahh, ok, thanks, you told them.
I was worried there for a minute:D
But if they know to ask, your "private" info is available to them. (and anyone else they choose to tell, like life insurance companies. But they wouldn't.....would they?;)). Great.

Cheers,
Terry

[Chucaro]

Ever been to the USA? I've been to the west coast and HFCS is in EVERYTHING.



Of the 42 countries studied, the United States has the highest per-capita consumption of HFCS at a rate of 25 kilograms, or 55 pounds, per year. The second highest is Hungary, with an annual rate of 16 kilograms, or 47 pounds, per capita. Argentina, Belgium , Bulgaria, Canada, Japan, Korea, Mexico and Slovakia are also relatively high HFCS consumers. Egypt, Finland, Germany, Greece, Poland, Portugal and Serbia are among the lowest HFCS consumers. Countries with per-capita consumption of less than 0.5 kilogram per year include Australia, China, Denmark, France, India, Ireland, Italy, Sweden, the United Kingdom and Uruguay.

[rover-56]

Eating may be a health hazard, as Mike said,:D but I reckon anything pre prepared and packaged definitely is.

Terry

[isuzurover]

Ben, the problem is that in 2012 more studies reveal that fructose can be a problem and some of the papers show problems with fructose .

In November 2012 a new study by USC and University of Oxford researchers indicated that large amounts of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) found in national food supplies across the world may be one explanation for the rising global epidemic of Type 2 diabetes and resulting higher health care costs.
It was published in Global Public Health, countries that use HFCS in their food supply had a 20 percent higher prevalence of diabetes than countries that did not use it. The analysis also revealed that the HFCS association with the “significantly prevalence of diabetes” occurred independent of total sugar intake and obesity levels.
It was a comprehensive research done in 42 countries.

In the way that I see it is that any unbalanced diet can have the bad side effects, in this case is the annual consumption of high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) a very common ingredient in many foods and drinks.
This does not have nothing to do to fructose intolerance.

Again, I believe that paying attention to the body and having a balanced diet will reduce many of the health problems that many people suffer.

Arthur,
If you cannot see that the study you posted is counfounded (and looking at a different problem) then I am wasting my time.

Here is the summary of a 2013 review of the fructose data:

Fructose-Containing Sugars, Blood Pressure, and Cardiometabolic Risk: A Critical Review
Author(s): Ha, V (Ha, Vanessa)[ 1,2 ] ; Jayalath, VH (Jayalath, Viranda H.)[ 1,2 ] ; Cozma, AI (Cozma, Adrian I.)[ 1,2 ] ; Mirrahimi, A (Mirrahimi, Arash)[ 1 ] ; de Souza, RJ (de Souza, Russell J.)[ 1,3 ] ; Sievenpiper, JL (Sievenpiper, John L.)[ 1,4 ]
Source: CURRENT HYPERTENSION REPORTS Volume: 15 Issue: 4 Pages: 281-297 DOI: 10.1007/s11906-013-0364-1 Published: AUG 2013
Times Cited: 0 (from Web of Science)
Cited References: 129 [ view related records ] Citation MapCitation Map
Abstract: Excessive fructose intake from high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) and sucrose has been implicated as a driving force behind the increasing prevalence of obesity and its downstream cardiometabolic complications including hypertension, gout, dyslidpidemia, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD). Most of the evidence to support these relationships draws heavily on ecological studies, animal models, and select human trials of fructose overfeeding. There are a number of biological mechanisms derived from animal models to explain these relationships, including increases in de novo lipogenesis and uric acid-mediated hypertension. Differences between animal and human physiology, along with the supraphysiologic level at which fructose is fed in these models, limit their translation to humans. Although higher level evidence from large prospective cohorts studies has shown significant positive associations comparing the highest with the lowest levels of intake of sugar-sweetened beverages (SSBs), these associations do not hold true at moderate levels of intake or when modeling total sugars and are subject to collinearity effects from related dietary and lifestyle factors. The highest level of evidence from controlled feeding trials has shown a lack of cardiometabolic harm of fructose and SSBs under energy-matched conditions at moderate levels of intake. It is only when fructose-containing sugars or SSBs are consumed at high doses or supplement diets with excess energy that a consistent signal for harm is seen. The available evidence suggests that confounding by excess energy is an important consideration in assessing the role of fructose-containing sugars and SSBs in the epidemics of hypertension and other cardiometabolic diseases.
Accession Number: WOS:000321861400003
Document Type: Article
Language: English

In short: excess sugar is bad, but fructose [based on the all data currently available] is no worse than other sugars.

[Chucaro]

Ben, I guess that we are looking at the issue of fructose at different angle.
I am looking at it as fructose it is present in the majority of the prepared foods and drinks which it is what the majority of people consume that means in combination with other sugars.
You are looking fructose isolated as it is present in fruits (apples)which it is not much relevant with the common diets which are the main problem for obesity, diabetes and cardiovascular issues among others.
If you are looking at it alone, then yes I agree with you that it is not worse than other sugars for the majority of the population.
I draw the short straw and it is bad for me :(

I hope that now you understand from were I come from about fructose :)

[elshano]

I cut out the carbs. moderate protein and HEAPS of fats. Even Saturated, such as found in meat, cream in coffee and my mushrooms die very happy in their swimming pool of butter.

Yes, I eat lots of green leafy veggies and sardines, sometimes wild salmon and tuna.
No, I don't have ANY grains, or fruit, except tomatoes which are merely an excuse to consume HUGE amounts of natural SALT... and various herbal supplements such as cinnamon, turmeric, peppers cumin.


You're onto it mate!
I have meat, nuts and fresh veg for breakfast. Probably higher protein than you but similar macros. Try to avoid anything processed. Every 3rd-4th day I'll have a high carb day (sweet potato, brown rice, oats) depending on how hard I've been training to avoid ketosis.
In terms of veg, I eat as many different colours as possible but broc, capsicum, mushroom, spinach and carrots are a staple.
We do 2 shops a week, a necessity if you're buying lots of fresh stuff.


If we have a bbq, dinner with friends or whatever, it's game on, nobody wants to be 'that guy' carting around steamed chicken breast, broccoli and brown rice and making everyone else feel bad!

Just hope more people get on board and take control of their diets but changing eating habits is one of the hardest things to do I think. Oh well, means I'll be in work for a long, long time to come :)

[Chucaro]

Those that like greens do not forget to add Kale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is one of the super food regarding nutrition value and also if salad is in the menu I would recommend sprouts of broccoli, water cress, radish and alfalfa.
Have a look the nutrition value of them and you will find that is a super salad .
Together with fish it will be a super sandwich for lunch at work :)

[Judo]

...
We do 2 shops a week, a necessity if you're buying lots of fresh stuff.
...

Why is it necessary to shop twice a week? Do you find veggies go off easily in the fridge?

I ask this because that's exactly what I found - veggies go soft and are horrible after just a few days. The problem is fridges are "frost free" which means they take all the moisture out of the air and anything in the fridge like vegetables - which ruins them. We keep fresh veggies in 2 big air tight tupperware containers now and they lasts weeks, no problem. :BigThumb:

I never thought I would be saying such things on LR forums, but tupperware is excellent and I recommend everyone has some in their fridge for vegetables. :D

[superquag]

You're onto it mate!
I have meat, nuts and fresh veg for breakfast. Probably higher protein than you but similar macros. Try to avoid anything processed. Every 3rd-4th day I'll have a high carb day (sweet potato, brown rice, oats) depending on how hard I've been training to avoid ketosis.In terms of veg, I eat as many different colours as possible but broc, capsicum, mushroom, spinach and carrots are a staple.
:)

Avoiding ketones or ketoacidosis ?

Why ???

Quick reference here:-
http://www.cardiofiles.net/gary-taubes-about-ketosis-76326.html

and here:-
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous

[PhilipA]

Well I calculated my score and it is 4% even with cholesterol of 6 and Hdl of 4.
I am darned if I know if I have left chamber myopathy or whatever . Nobody has ever mentioned it.
Can I sue them if I die?
Regards Philip A

[bob10]

Do you people actually listen to yourselves? It sounds like Eventide at lunch time. for goodness sake, lighten up. we are all going to die sometime, get over it. Bob


Monty Python - always look on the bright side of life (with lyrics) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/-ECUtkv2qV8)

[AnD3rew]

Having had 2 heart attacks:( Angioplasty:(:(and a triple bypass:(:(:( I watched with interest ABC's CATALYST programs on statin medication. As a result I have decided to stop my statin medication which I have been taking for the last 20 years. I won't bore forumites with my reasons for this decision.

I am interested to hear other peoples reaction to the program (only if you watched it of course).
I am also interested in knowing what other members are doing to reduce their cholesterol levels if high cholesterol is a problem for you.
Thanks, Pete.

I think this would probably be a very bad decision. You are probably the kind of high risk individiual who is most likely to Benefit from using statins.

The Catalyst program was far from balanced they raised some interesting points of view and made a few valid points but they DID NOT present the vast body of evidence in proportion and in balance.

Yes probably more people are getting statins than need them, yes they do have side effects, but serious side effects are rare. Basically you need to consider your total risk, if your cholesterol is moderately raised and you have no other serious risk factors you probably shouldn't be taking statins. But if you have multiple risk factors and raised cholesterol you probably should.

The diet part of the program I think was better, I think the evidence is mounting that dietary cholesterol probably makes little difference to serum cholesterol levels. The big nasties are probably trans fats. And yes the most important factor in long term health is probably insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome. This is moderated more by weight, and glycemic index and consumption of carbohydrates is a big part of that.

[elshano]

Avoiding ketones or ketoacidosis ?

Why ???

Quick reference here:-
http://www.cardiofiles.net/gary-taubes-about-ketosis-76326.html

and here:-
Is ketosis dangerous? « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. (http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/is-ketosis-dangerous)

Ketosis. Ketosis comes about when glycogen stores are depleted (eg carb intake too low to replenish glycogen). Ketones are far less efficient at fueling exercise than glycogen and the body will also start to metabolise amino acids for energy. Losing muscle mass is obviously not a good thing for optimal health - negative effect on RMR among a lot of other things.
If I'm trying to build muscle mass and reduce body fat I definitely want to stay out of ketosis.

Judo - yes, fresh stuff doesn't keep well for too long but I also eat too much (the fridge gets stuffed full each shop and emptied in a real hurry!). Tupperware is definitely your best friend if you're on the ball with your meal prep!

[elshano]

Do you people actually listen to yourselves? It sounds like Eventide at lunch time. for goodness sake, lighten up. we are all going to die sometime, get over it. Bob


Monty Python - always look on the bright side of life (with lyrics) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/-ECUtkv2qV8)

Yep, we're all gonna die that's for sure, but I'd rather die looking like a stallion than a blob* ;)
*blob is the polite way of saying what I really wanted to say


No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. – Socrates

[CapableCate]

On the other hand I agree that fructose being the particular sugar to be avoided.

The impact of fructose on renal function and blood pressure.
Kretowicz M, Johnson RJ, Ishimoto T, Nakagawa T, Manitius J.
Source

Department of Nephrology, Hypertension and Internal Medicine, Collegium Medicum in Bydgoszcz, Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń, ul. Skłodowskiej-Curie 9, 85-094 Bydgoszcz, Poland.
Abstract

Fructose is a sugar present in sucrose, high-fructose corn syrup, honey, and fruits. Fructose intake has increased markedly in the last two centuries, primarily due to increased intake of added sugars. Increasing evidence suggests that the excessive intake of fructose may induce fatty liver, insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, hypertension, and kidney disease. These studies suggest that excessive intake of fructose might have an etiologic role in the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and cardiorenal disease.

There are so many medical publications about the effects of taken fructose that we will not have a room in the server to post them.

What this bring is that we have to take research papers "with a grain of salt" and pay more attention to our body.

Thanks Chucaro . . . this is along the lines of what I'd been reading about recently. As I said at end of my last post . . . There is never a 'one size, fits all' with any of the diet/supplement/medication regimes promoted, as we are all individual with various other health conditions, and different body shapes, metabolisms etc. As a general rule, I have tried to manage my conditions with a balanced approach of a little of everything in moderation, 10-15 minute brisk walk a day, and spending quality time with friends & family, helping out when ever I can, and making time to relax & appreciate the beauty and nature of our beautiful country.
We can also do well to take closer notice of our own bodies, and how they react to various foods etc. While research has it's place, undoubtedly, all too often, something that was haled as being the ultimate answer to a condition/s, invariably is replaced by something to refute that later. Comes down to being sensible & moderate :)

[bob10]

Yep, we're all gonna die that's for sure, but I'd rather die looking like a stallion than a blob* ;)
*blob is the polite way of saying what I really wanted to say


No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training…what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. – Socrates

How amazingly appropriate it is you quoted Socrates in this thread. No doubt you know the story of his life, and death. If not, I suggest you look it up, good for a laugh. You blokes sound like you need one, :D Bob

[mikehzz]

STEVE MARTIN - DEATH OF SOCRATES - YouTube

[UncleHo]

Well I must be a very plain type of eater,as I enjoy my 4 Vita-Brits for breakfast with 2 level teaspoons of sugar,+ milk, lunch is usually bread or toast (multigrain) and Vegimite,evenings are usually a chicken schnitzel fried in veg oil,boiled peas,beans,carrot,broc,& cabbage,I don't eat salads "rabbit food",and
I occasionally have Macca's 10 piece bites and a small fries,and yes,I drink Coke,but with the bite taken out of it with Scotch :D. I had a quad bypass in 2001 after a coronary in 2000, I have just weighed myself and am 68 kilos,I gave up smoking in 2000 last ciggie waking down to get into the Ambo, I try to keep active,3/4 of an acre with a Victa walk-behind,and working on Land Rovers,I enjoy going down to the local shopping centre as it is 1klm long,and usually to it at least once,down and back on my suicide (walking) stick :)
I am going to get back swimming this summer so I can keep fit.

cheers

[superquag]

How amazingly appropriate it is you quoted Socrates in this thread. No doubt you know the story of his life, and death. If not, I suggest you look it up, good for a laugh. You blokes sound like you need one, :D Bob

Another view of Socrates is..... - that of an argumentative bugger who took delight in embarrasing/confusing/undermining & humiliating people, the more prominant they were the better he liked it.

Today we might refer to his behaviour as 'Intellectual bullying', or, if he pitched them so it was seen in a positive light..... 'Motivational Speaker'. How it's presented is how it's received.

A lot depends on how history is written, as well as when and by whom.

I've noticed when folk are emotionally battered on top of being deceived and brow-beaten, they tend to react with less than Christian forgiveness....:twisted:


Anyway, I don't take all this toooo seriously, as sooner or later a double-blind, peer-reviewed, manufacturer - funded study will suggest we should eat more chocolate and ice cream.
-They'll have the statistics to prove it... .:angel:

[UncleHo]

More chocolate and ice cream YUM! and why not ;)


BTW. I dug out my last Cholesterol reading of 5 but my Dr wants 3.5 yet mum could not get below 8 as she was often up to 11,

[PhilipA]

I reckon it's a bit of a lottery.

I know of 2 people who were VERY fit and with very low body fat who both had multiplke bypasses in their 50s.
One was a top distrance runner and had to have the stress test rerun at higher intensity to find his blocked arteries. The other is my wife's cousin who was an A grade squash player and used to run up 20 stories of his office building every day.

I have also read somewhere and not been contradicted by my doctor that 80% of people who have heart attacks have normal cholesterol levels.

Here is me now 64 and always maybe 10-20 kg overweight at 188CM and 110-119 Kg but always active with squash, tennis , weights etc etc but high cholesterol, high BP and occasional Lone Atrial Fibrillation but so far not a hint of blockage symptoms.

I ask the doctor every time I see her to renew my Lipidil and Teveten, whether it is worth having a scan to see what the arteries are like and she always tells me it cannot be justified as I have no symptoms.

She recommended I change my diet as my blood sugar was 6.8 , so I changed about 6 months ago to no sugar, and higher fat, more meat , lots of veg and salad. I dropped 10KG and have never felt better.
I think a key issue is that I have never smoked and drink only moderately. I cannot have wine as it contains sulphur preservatives which trigger my AF. Probably my biggest regret.

So I don't think there is any point stressing about it as I tend to agree that stress is a killer. I think I would be dead now if I hadn't retired early 7 years ago. Poor but happy and healthy.
Regards Philip A

[UncleHo]

Yep! stress will do you more harm than enough,but I drove a school bus for 16 years and it never got to me, I enjoyed it, and some of my ex-school kids I often see,when shopping in the local area, but I am often reminded of my age when I see some of my ex-kids with their high primary, low high school children :(

[C00P]

Having had 2 heart attacks:( Angioplasty:(:(and a triple bypass:(:(:( I watched with interest ABC's CATALYST programs on statin medication. As a result I have decided to stop my statin medication which I have been taking for the last 20 years. I won't bore forumites with my reasons for this decision.

I am interested to hear other peoples reaction to the program (only if you watched it of course).
I am also interested in knowing what other members are doing to reduce their cholesterol levels if high cholesterol is a problem for you.
Thanks, Pete.
I think you should check out the Media Watch programme broadcast tonight. You can get it off their website. Seems that one of the "Doctors" quoted wasn't a doctor at all, and they all had a vested interest in knocking statins. (Yes, I did see both Catalyst programmes. I'm a bit disappointed to learn how unbalanced it was.)

Cheers

Coop

[vnx205]

The Media Watch item was certainly scathing in its comments about the Catalyst program.

Anyone thinking of making a decision based on the very bad journalism in the Catalyst program should check out the Media Watch comments.

If you missed it, you can catch up on iview.
Media Watch (ABC TV) (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/#)

[MBZ460]

Apparently they also plagiaised another film:
ABC TV Australia Plagiarised Independent Filmmaker for 'their' Cholesterol and Satins Program. (http://www.statinnation.net/blog/2013/11/1/abc-tv-australia-plagiarised-independent-film-maker-for-their-cholesterol-and-satins-program)

The film:
The Great Cholesterol Cover-Up: STATIN NATION (Full Movie) - ... (http://tv.greenmedinfo.com/the-great-cholesterol-cover-up-statin-nation-full-movie/)

[Ean Austral]

There was a show on last night on SBS ( I think ) and it was about a bloke who had high cholesterol and some other health issues, and he tried fasting.

The first fasting he tried had the reverse effect and his levels went up, then he tried 2 days a week and his levels dropped , but they never told you to what levels, and he did say a lot more trials needed to be done, but it did work for him.

As someone who suffered from very high cholesterol myself, and having been on statins, but , the side effects forced me off them, the withdrawals I had after taking them for 12 months I hope I never suffer that again.

The constant headache for 5 days, sweating like you wouldn't believe, joint aches, and generally feeling like crap for about 10 days, I am glad that I no longer take them. Me personally I would rather live with high cholesterol than go back on statins, but realise everyone is different.

Cheers Ean

[superquag]

Been there-Done that with 'statins. Tried a couple, but the end result was the same. - not a great deal of cholesterol improvement... but with severe pain, muscle aches that mimicked heart-pains..., and feeling generally depressed and crap. Physically as well as mentally foggy....

I found after coming off statins, - did'nt tell the GP 'cos I didn't have the knowledge or arguments - that I got a better result by eating sardines & canned tuna 5 or 6 times per week. Previously NONE.

He was mpressed by the results- still not "perfect" but much improved.... - and agreed that "diet" could indeed be a useful treatment in my case....

This is interesting. The medical propaganda we're subject to - Eat Healthy, LOW fat, replace dairy and butter with margarine and lite milk or soy, complex carbs, LOW Cholesterol foods, LOW salt, etc etc - is all centred around what we should NOT eat.
(That most of the above is totally wrong is a minor detail...)

Then, to treat the result of our life-style choices, they insist we DO eat their medications.
But NOT the foods that will have the same or better effect.

One has to wonder if it's because they don't know, don't want to know, or prefer we don't know.

An animal doctor knows more about nutrition than a human doctor. - From a Vet who successfully treated his own metabolic disorders by diet alone, after his GP wife was unable to help, beyond prescribing meds that did'nt work...

Bottom line (for me at least) Being actively involved and learning/questioning everything makes for a far better Dr/Patient relationship.
And better outcomes for you.

Having worked in a Newspaper, I can assure you that there is a lot of 'referencing' that goes on. A huge amount that gets through due to being 'expertly' re-written/re-phrased/differant order of presentation.

The less skillful examples are know to us a plagiarism.

I don't have huge problem with that, especially if it brings to light the original source(s).
- Thanks for that !

[vnx205]

.... ..... ....
Having worked in a Newspaper, I can assure you that there is a lot of 'referencing' that goes on. A huge amount that gets through due to being 'expertly' re-written/re-phrased/differant order of presentation.

The less skillful examples are know to us a plagiarism.

I don't have huge problem with that, especially if it brings to light the original source(s).
- Thanks for that !

The problem in this case is not the plagiarism. The lack of balance and the very dubious original sources are a bigger worry.

[Chucaro]

The Media Watch item was certainly scathing in its comments about the Catalyst program.

Anyone thinking of making a decision based on the very bad journalism in the Catalyst program should check out the Media Watch comments.

If you missed it, you can catch up on iview.
Media Watch (ABC TV) (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/#)

I watch it and sent them my views about waht they have to say :mad:
The are complaining that Catalyst do not have a balanced inputs about the subject and at the same time they are in favor of blocking views like the expressed in the Catalyst program.
What a bunch of arrogant doctors are those that believe that people are not entitled to be informed about the drugs that Doctors are prescribing to them.
It is about time that doctors inform about the benefits and also side effects of the drugs so patients can choose according to their views.
I just wonder how many of the doctors of the members that have posted here the problems of these drugs have reported the side effects.
I bypass the doctors and reported the problems to TGA in their page on the web Reporting problems (http://www.tga.gov.au/consumers/problem.htm)

Yesterday I whent with my wife to see her specialist who prescribed Lyrica 75 mg without mention one single side effect. :mad:
Have a look the side effects of this drug and let me know if you do not believe that we should have the right to choose between pain or the severe effects that can cause this "poison"
With statins is the same issue, we have the right to know.

[Ean Austral]

I watch it and sent them my views about waht they have to say :mad:
The are complaining that Catalyst do not have a balanced inputs about the subject and at the same time they are in favor of blocking views like the expressed in the Catalyst program.
What a bunch of arrogant doctors are those that believe that people are not entitled to be informed about the drugs that Doctors are prescribing to them.
It is about time that doctors inform about the benefits and also side effects of the drugs so patients can choose according to their views.
I just wonder how many of the doctors of the members that have posted here the problems of these drugs have reported the side effects.
I bypass the doctors and reported the problems to TGA in their page on the web Reporting problems (http://www.tga.gov.au/consumers/problem.htm)

Yesterday I whent with my wife to see her specialist who prescribed Lyrica 75 mg without mention one single side effect. :mad:
Have a look the side effects of this drug and let me know if you do not believe that we should have the right to choose between pain or the severe effects that can cause this "poison"
With statins is the same issue, we have the right to know.

When I prescribed statins, I was told i needed a blood test 1 month after i start taking them because they can effect liver function, it took 8 months to find a tablet that never effected my liver, and I was at the stage where I was about to tell them to shove the tablets.

After taking them for about 14 months and no noticable drop in cholesterol, I spoke to a heart specialist and he recommended I come off them as he believed the side effects were worse than the benifit I was recieving. As I said, the withdrawals I went thru was terrible, I could ring the sweat out of my shirt from just normal everyday things like sitting down and eating dinner. I have lived in the tropics nearly all my life and never before then or since have I been like that. I hardly ever get headaches but I had 1 for 5 days, my wife was ready to take me for head scans believing I had a brain hemmorage or something as she knew I never suffered from headaches.

I never watched much of the show, but , in my case statins were not working and I am so glad that I no longer take them.

Cheers Ean

[vnx205]

I watch it and sent them my views about waht they have to say :mad:
They are complaining that Catalyst do not have a balanced inputs about the subject and at the same time they are in favor of blocking views like the expressed in the Catalyst program.
What a bunch of arrogant doctors are those that believe that people are not entitled to be informed about the drugs that Doctors are prescribing to them.
... .... ...
.

I don't believe that is a fair analysis of what the Media Watch program said.

They didn't advocate blocking the views of people like those that were interviewed at length. They just pointed out that those people were given a lot of time to present their views while the Heart Foundation representative and others were given very little time to explain their position.

They didn't suggest that people should not be informed about drugs they take. They just think people should be properly informed by people who know what they are talking about. That isn't arrogant; that is sensible.

As consequence of the little time he was given, the Heart Foundation rep came across as arrogant. That impression is inevitable if he is not given time to explain his position.

Media Watch was advocating balance, not blocking.

Like Media Watch, I am not arguing about the benefits or dangers of statins and cholesterol. I am just agreeing with Media Watch that the Catalyst programs were very poor journalism.

Don't you think it is a bit dodgy that the "experts" that Catalyst interviewed sell their own heart health pills in opposition to statins?

Maybe the following comment by one of Catalyst's experts might give an insight into how cautious we need to be in taking his comments at face value.

Dr Stephen Sinatra: You look at grounding for example or earthing, you know, putting your bare feet on the ground, you’ll soak up lots of electrons because the earth is negatively charged, our bodies are so full of free radicals, from, you know, anything from heavy metals to air pollution, to trans fats, I mean, our body is being inundated with a firestorm of free radicals so you got to put the fire out ...So I am so bullish on grounding as the most primitive, easiest, cheapest way of creating optimum health.

— YouTube, Dr Stephen Sinatra, 20th April, 2010

[Petetheprinta]

It has been very interesting reading the posts following my original post. Thank you all for (in most instances) thought provoking comments. There are obviously pros and cons for taking statins. I would suggest for every study lauding statins, there is one rubbishing them. In many instances I believe the experts pro or con have a vested interested in the use of statins.

Having said all that and looked at both sides for many years my decision is still to stop taking them (as of 1st November). There are, I believe, in my case other factors besides cholesterol that will determine the result of my ongoing heart problems. My biggest problem is Genes. All the males on my fathers side have succumbed to vascular diseases. At the tender young age. At 64 I am about the longest living male member of my family. It's pretty tough to beat those odds. Statins I believe again in my case have caused muscle, memory, weakness, confusion and other minor irrations. My doctors of course disagree, they put it down to old age. Well I hope to prove them wrong or die in the attempt (JOKE).

After 2 weeks I feel no change whatsoever but early days. For those waiting with baited breath I will keep you informed.

Tthanks for the words of encouragement.
Pete

[Chucaro]

.................................................. ...........

Don't you think it is a bit dodgy that the "experts" that Catalyst interviewed sell their own heart health pills in opposition to statins?

.................................................. ...........................................

If you look at it like unbalanced presentation I go along with you but the intention of the producer was not to have a debate but to have a view to start a debate between the public like we are doing now.
I believe that people are intelligent enough to pick what it is of value in the program and what it is not.
Regarding conflict of interest on some of the presenters we cannot help that look the article by "USA Today analysis of financial conflicts of interest shows the following, based on 159 FDA advisory committee meetings:

- 92% of the meetings had at least one member who had a financial conflict of interest.

- At 55% of advisory meetings, at least half, sometimes more among the FDA advisers, had conflicts of interest

- Financial conflicts of interest were most frequent at the 57 meetings when broader issues were discussed: 92% of members had conflicts

- At 102 meetings dealing with the fate of a given drug, 33% of the experts in attendance had a financial conflict

Historically the FDA revealed when these financial conflicts were present, but these conflicts have been kept secret since 1992.8 "

Now, the FDA and TGA have an cooperative agreement between them to among other things, quote:
The Food and Drug Administration, Department of Health and Human Services (FDA) of the United States of America and the Therapeutic Goods Administration, Department of Health and Aged Care (TGA) of the Commonwealth of Australia in order to exchange information and/or documents on the observations and results of inspections of human pharmaceutical products and facilities for adherence to Current Good Manufacturing Practices (CGMPs) and conditions of adulteration, misbranding, or adverse health consequences; End of Quote

Make you wonder why some doctors in executive places do not whant people to be informed.

I guess that as long there is money and greed we are never going to have a balanced information so we have to read and access all the information that we can and balance it ourselves.
There a thousands of people that are using Lipitor and the generic drugs for 3 years or more.
How many of them have been told by their doctors about the side effects reported by the FDA since 2011?
When the Hearth Foundation has reported about these FDA reports that are shared by TGA?
Last September FDA Warns on Statins, Lipitor & Diabetes (http://central-pennsylvania.legalexaminer.com/fda-prescription-drugs/fda-warns-on-statins-lipitor-diabetes/), have the Doctors rand the people that they have prescribed this drug with the findings?
Of course not, they do not need to know.

[isuzurover]

If you look at it like unbalanced presentation I go along with you but the intention of the producer was not to have a debate but to have a view to start a debate between the public like we are doing now.

...

I believe that people are intelligent enough to pick what it is of value in the program and what it is not.

...

I am not so sure... There are plenty of "true believers" out there who only see what they want... (just look at the vaccination thread).

The presenter seems to be one of those... [note that the producer decided the initial cut of the program was biased and forced her to include a heart surgeon]...

[Ferret]

I believe that people are intelligent enough to pick what it is of value in the program and what it is not.

Rather difficult for the majority of people watching that show when some so called 'experts' in the fields turn out to have mail order qualifications (PhD) in the field they claim expertise in.

How are people supposed to know what is of value or not when this is done without disclosure by Catalyst.

[Chucaro]

Rather difficult for the majority of people watching that show when some so called 'experts' in the fields turn out to have mail order qualifications (PhD) in the field they claim expertise in.

How are people supposed to know what is of value or not when this is done without disclosure by Catalyst.
By doing a research in the same way that Media Watch have done it.
I am not who is going to assume that people cannot do that, it will be an arrogant view.

[Chucaro]

I am not so sure... There are plenty of "true believers" out there who only see what they want... (just look at the vaccination thread).

The presenter seems to be one of those... [note that the producer decided the initial cut of the program was biased and forced her to include a heart surgeon]...
That is a different issue, people that choose to not have statins do not affect others.