Potential purchase - detailed questions

[7er]

EDIT: Sorry, I was originally only going to ask about the HeVAC hence the title. I can't change it now, but this is also a plea for help about a potential purchase.
EDIT 2: Nevermind, I figured out how to change the title...

Hi everyone,
I've been looking for a P38 for a while now, and I've come to the stage where I'm a bit tired of looking at them and rejecting them! I've found one that seems reasonable, but it's got a couple of little issues that I might overlook so I can just stop looking!

It's 1997 model HSE with a reasonable folder of history covering the last three-four years and has ~225000kms, with about 4 months rego.

There are two big issues:


One is that the HeVAC screen switches off after you start the car. The fans work and even the blend doors seem to be doing their thing. If you just 'tap' the key into the starter without starting it the screen comes on but as soon as you start the engine it turns off, with just the backlight on. There are no missing segments in the screen when it works.

I'm quite good with electrics so unless it's a major replacement type fault I'd be able to eventually fix it, but it is a major fault? Has anyone seen this as I've not found a report of it on any forums.

Th other bigger issue is:


The only key is not a remote key. It is just a small Land Rover branded key. Looking through the service history I noticed it had a new BeCM fitted a couple of years ago, does that mean a new key will be difficult to source? I have NRMA Key cover, so may be able to get them to pay for one from the dealer, although it's capped at $500. I'm just concerned that it's a cheap second-hand module (most likely) and so ordering a key from the dealer for the original BeCM won't get me anywhere. Can the dealer easily find which is the correct key? Can a second-hand BeCM be reprogrammed (there was mention of reprogramming on the receipt)? I think it was a Land-Rover specialist, but not a dealer - I could be wrong (on either).



Anyway, the other things are this:


Air suspension a little slow to raise up - could this just be a compressor reseal? That's not a big issue, is it? The bags all look reasonable.



Engine seems good, except if you floor it (especially up a hill) where it then feels down on power - I noticed the catalytic converters were changed to aftermarket ones (looks like Magnaflow) and they look old. Maybe they are blocked up? Is that wishful thinking and is it likely to be something else like a worn engine?



It's had a small tap from something in a rear corner and cracked the rear bumper skirt. No damage further from that, are the outer bumper skirts/skin/trim expensive?



Bottom corner of the top half of the tailgate is bent in for some reason (nothing to do with the above point). There's no paint damage and it really doesn't look hit so what's happened there? Seller did not notice it (or claimed not to). It was in the same spot that the lower tailgate latch was missing one bolt so the door was a tiny bit loose and was letting water into the wheel well. Easy fix there, but could that have anything to do with the bent corner of the top half (same side)? I have a photo of it below.



Front-passenger door doesn't always register as closed. Sometimes it needs to be opened and closed again to lock the car if someone's used it. I presume that's just a replaceable switch in the door or handle or perhaps may be cleanable (also assuming it's not just a push switch in the door frame, and that like like European cars of it's time that it's integrated somewhere).

Aesthetics:


It has the usual faded bonnet and roof, but it's not bad enough to turn me off this one. I've seen worse, although he's "ArmourAll"ed everything else, he might've done similar to the paint...
Usual roof-lining dropping.
Missing parcel-shelf (as seem to be the case all too often)
Very dirty C-pillar trim (B-pillar surprisingly clean).
Driver door-step trim has a crack.
Upper tailgate handle has a crack. I know these last two are superficial, but at the price it is I wouldn't mind knowing if others agree.



Sorry for all the questions but he's contacted me and accepted an offer I made to him (which he refused a couple of days ago I might add). I need to make a decision today and I'm flat out searching the internet for information about these without luck! I'd love some opinions on the price, if anyone can help me with that, PM me and I'll tell you exactly what I offered (I have a gut feeling maybe it was too high). It was above $5500 but below $9500.

Thanks for any help!

[Keithy P38]

G'day mate and welcome!

I can't fully comment on a few things as I'm not a mechanic (so that rules out your power loss and hevac questions), however I can provide some insight into a few of the others!

The becm has obviously been replaced and old mate may have had a gutful of getting locked out so he has most likely had the immobiliser disabled (hence the key with no buttons). This may be a good thing if your Rangie will be garaged at night. Others have had a few issues sorting these problems on early p38's.

The dent in the upper tailgate appears to have been struck or possibly attempted to be closed with something hanging out the other side (repeatedly). I'd say its been a dodgy repair and painted. Not sure how hard the repair is for this.

The handle on the upper tailgate is no biggie - mine is cracked slightly too and I dare say it is just due to the amazing weight/force of the upper tailgate when you close it. No biggie!

The repair to the bumper should be cheap and I'd assume a panel shop can do this for you.

The air suspension issue sounds like a slow compressor. Could be simple, could be complex! Short of a full inspection it is hard to say. If it is the compressor you are in a good position.

If I was to make an offer based on what you've mentioned, it'd be around $7500 to $8000. If old mate has accepted an offer considerably lower than this I'd suggest there may be more wrong! Check the cooling system over thoroughly before you shake hands... Maybe a head gasket is on the way out...

Hope this helps mate!

Cheers
Keithy

[benji]

Regarding the key fob, give lr a ring to find out what the go is. In the US lr are still supplying key fobs to p38s, I assume itd be the same in oz. You don't have to have a key on the Australian models though. There's no eka on that one.

The door locks are able to be pulled apart quite easily- but, I dont know if the micro switches are available, they do look like a generic Jaycar part though. Either way, door locks are available on fleabay - and no programming for the passenger side obviously.

The lockset number from the the door barrel / keyfob / ignition barrel can be programmed into the becm.

The hevac I haven't the foggiest - but it doesn't sound like a normal fault.

With the engine on will the fan speef go up and down?

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[7er]

Thanks Keithy and Benji, I really appreciate your thoughts.


The dent in the upper tailgate appears to have been struck or possibly attempted to be closed with something hanging out the other side (repeatedly). I'd say its been a dodgy repair and painted. Not sure how hard the repair is for this.

The latch for the lower tailgate on that side is loose (one of the bolts is missing), and I noticed it looks like it's been moving back and forth a little as it's been driven so I'm assuming that may have something to do with it. There really isn't any evidence of paint work, so I'm hesitant to think it's been hit there...


Regarding the key fob
I had this same issue with another one I looked at earlier in the year (it had a grey non-remote key, but unlike this one it had it's original BeCM), and LR said a new key would be no problem. The replacement is 'only' $380, just bring rego papers and photo ID.

My concern is that the BeCM hasn't been programmed with the original codes so a new key from the dealer won't do a thing. I really don't care about having an immobiliser, I just want to not worry about being locked out due to worn micro-switches in the door lock (I read that's an issue if you only use the key).


The door locks are able to be pulled apart quite easily.
Ahh, goodo. So the switch is in the latch itself in the door? If it's a typical microswitch then yes, Jaycar it is. Thanks.



The hevac ... With the engine on will the fan speed go up and down?

At that stage I thought I probably wouldn't buy it as he seemed firm on the price, so I didn't play with it as much as I could've.

What I noticed is that if I quickly hit the starter and left the key in the ignition (but not enough to start it) it came on and stayed on. I could adjust the fan speed and switch the blend doors, but as soon as I turned the key and and actually started the engine the screen turned off. The fans kept running but I stupidly didn't think to try changing them.

The owner said he just presses auto then presses the blue or red arrows to change the fan speed (he really didn't seem to have much idea of how it worked), so I'd say it can be changed when the screen's off.

It flashes on for a half-second when you start the engine normally.

[davidsonsm]

Personally, I'd walk away. If the stuff you see makes you nervous, without solid history, it could be the tip of the iceberg. That's the way these cars are. You'll end up fixing everybody elses neglect. Once fixed, or maintained in the first place - brilliant. But I reckon there are enough red flags raised, where a better deal could be found.

[7er]

...
Yes, you could be right.

I don't mind working on it (in fact I've never let a mechanic touch one of my cars ever. Well, apart from registration checks...), but I need it to be reliable for at least six months (preferably more of course) without needing work requiring it to be taken off the road.

I'm coming from a Leyland-era Jag and 90's BMWs, so I can assure you I know the fun of British electrics and the pleasantries of semi-experimental electro-mechanical gizmos of the 90's. My family's had Land Rovers of all types without problems (just not the P38a) so I guess they've just been lucky!

I also want to be sure that if it turns out to not be right for me that it's not going to cost much more than I can sell it for later in the year. I'm not a dishonest person, so I'd feel obliged to fix things before selling it hence my discomfort. I think I'd get that with any P38 really (it's what's made me turn down a few P38s in the past that I regret).

I think I might buy this one, so far it seems the issues can be addressed without major cost (I have a fair bit of free time over the next month & half to work on it a little, so labour's no issue):


HeVAC - System operational just an issue with the display in the head

New head should fix that - The head has no programming, it's all in the BeCM right? (unless that's my problem)


No remote key - It seems that when a BeCM is installed the security and equipment codes are cloned into the new one

So theoretically if I want a remote key in the future I should be able to just order one from the dealer. Worst case scenario buy a complete module and lock set on the cheap from the UK. I will have a Hawkeye V5 soon, can that help me with this?


Engine down on power under heavy throttle and high revs (say... flooring it up a hill) - Catalytic converters

This is actually the first one I've looked at that didn't have the original cats, they look like those cheap $85 Magnaflow jobs that give you a few years max out of them. They look old and rusted so I'm hoping they're just a little choked up.


Top tailgate's bottom edge twisted in on one corner - should just twist back (albeit with some hassle) and replace missing screw in latch in the lower gate on that side

Failing that I presume a second-hand one wouldn't cost very much. I doubt it's a fast mover from wreckers seeing as its the lower half that has issues (am I wrong? I know that's the case with the classics)


Slow air suspension - Considering the low price of the reseal kits I'd be silly to not do that

Hopefully new seals in the compressor and valve block will eliminate the slow lifting.
For my purposes I'm planning a larger compressor and tank in the future so that just leaves the valve block. Can these wear beyond repair at 225000 km?
If a new valve block is needed I might just install a MARS kit to bypass it until I feel like lightening the wallet. Definitely not going to run coils.


Passenger door switch - Remove door latch, disassemble, replace microswitch

Worst case scenario appears to be $200 for a brand new assembly, I'm sure a second-hand one would be available somewhere. Scratch that, I just found one in the UK for $45. I'd be more likely to fix it though.



Does anyone see a problem with the above or can anyone add something I've missed?

I stupidly forgot to check the most obvious first thing of leaky heater o-rings, I'll do that before I buy it (I've got a small list of things I forgot actually, but only little things that won't really change my mind). That said, even if they're leaking if it's not a bad leak yet I'll probably still buy it since it's a dirt cheap, time-consuming job. It'd help me get acquainted with the old girl. :D

EDIT: Something I do like is the $8000+ worth of receipts over the last few years, including a couple from a LR dealer and several (the biggest, including one for over $6000) from a LR specialist. Surely someone wouldn't be foolish enough to spend that much money on something that belongs in a scrap heap? Is that wishful thinking?

[p38driver]

Keep looking there are better ones out there for that money , dont rush into buying . Test drive a lot as they all perform different depending how the were looked after . You will soon sort out the good from the abused , good luck.

[davidsonsm]

Can't help thinking he's asking top dollar for the issues it has.

[33chinacars]

Just reading between the lines I'd walk away from this one. I'm sure there are better ones out there for your money. Sounds like he may be a bit desperate to sell / Why. If its so good & he's spend so much money on it why sell. It also sounds like a lot of "little" issues have been let go. So what is he not telling you.

There has been a couple of P38's in the market section . Have a look. When you find the right one you will not have any questions & you will know.

Walk way / Far to many Questions

Gary

[SpiggyTopes]

Totally agree - don't touch it!

BECM, latches ...... engine sluggish?

[7er]

:eek2: :TIC:


Well... ah I guess it's little late now as I bought it this morning...


So far, so good though. Let's hope that it doesn't turn out to be a big mistake.

I just want to add, I'm really fussy about checking these. I've looked at plenty and while I've seen better (for more money), I've seen far worse for the same price. While I don't want to say how much I bought it for, it was close to the lower end of the price range I mentioned above.

I've already fixed the tailgate latch issue (new bolt and everything seals up tight as it should).

Engine is better than I thought, it felt worse because the idle is a bit low and a bit rough. If I bring the idle up just a slight touch it smooths right out. It seems to want to drop down to about 500-550 RPM for some reason, hopefully the Hawkeye maybe able to point me in the right direction when I get it.

As for power, perhaps I just didn't want to floor the accelerator on someone else's car. Having since floored it once (waste of fuel ;)) I was wrong about it running out of puff. It does pick itself up and move along at high RPM.

It cleaned it up in and out quite a bit. While obviously nothing can help the paint on the bonnet, everything seemed to come up a lot.

Having a careful read through the history, the BeCM was replaced with a brand-new unlocked BeCM (at about $2185 for the module alone!) and was programmed by a Land Rover specialist called Ayers Automotive (are they any good?) using an Autologic system. I presume they did copy the security codes from the old BeCM so I guess I'll risk a new remote key from the dealer, I might be able to claim it somehow.

Nevermind the comment about slow suspension - it's fast, comfortable and useful. It was on a strange slope when I tested it originally. I've since used [read: played] with it a lot since and it's working fine. In the receipts is a fully reconditioned valve block as well (to the tune of $898 fitted), so that just leaves the compressor which I'll do anyway since the kit's cheap.


I've already been down a little old muddy track near where I live to test it out and all seems nice, even on 18" road tyres (except for the false intermittent warning about the passenger door being open - opening and closing it gets rid of the message, but I'll have to sort it. So far it's only happened off-road, usually when I got in and out to check the path).

Biggest issue now it the HeVAC system. I was completely wrong about that too (must've been the heat ;)). It's not just the display. It operates perfectly with the key in ignition, however as soon as you start the engine it turns off everything to do with the HeVAC. Does this change anything; has anyone heard of this one? I've checked all fuses and relays, but perhaps I've missed something?

Let's hope it stays major problem free, and thank you very much for everyone's thoughts! It's just a pity I didn't see them in time (or maybe not, depends on how it works out)!

[Keithy P38]

It's a big game of chance with the hevac :-)

Just reading your post I'd say old mate wasn't the kind to want to get his hands dirty! Hence the big receipts!

Glad you are happy with the purchase! It's a cheap luxury mobile that I'm sure will provide you with plenty of happy weekends of tinkering/4wding!

Cheers
Keithy

[bruce p38]

Good for you 7er I hope she's a beaut, sounds like it. So what if a few niggly fault exist, show me any other car of that age that doesn't . Fix'n stuff lets u GTK the P38 a !

B p38

[rc42]

Hey 7er, congratulations on your purchase, it quite a scary looking list of issues though, I dred to think what the ones you rejected were like.

Out of curiosity, what was the single $6000 bill for? I'm hoping its not something that's likely to fail on my P38.

[benji]

We bought ours for 5500ish, the electronics were all over the place, the engine had a tick and was using coolant. The gamble paid off though, a new fuse box, new battery, and soldering some wires a mouse had chewed through, and regretably heater orings got it going again - apart from the tick it was perfect.

Its a gamble though.

There are numerous positive feeds to the hevac ecu, I wouldnt mind betting one of these is faulty.

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[TheTree]

Hi

Congrats on your purchase and welcome to the madness :p

Steve

[TheTree]

Having a careful read through the history, the BeCM was replaced with a brand-new unlocked BeCM (at about $2185 for the module alone!) and was programmed by a Land Rover specialist called Ayers Automotive (are they any good?) using an Autologic system. I presume they did copy the security codes from the old BeCM so I guess I'll risk a new remote key from the dealer, I might be able to claim it somehow.


The guys at Ayers Automotive know their stuff and are very helpful

Steve

[mtb_gary]

Congratulations on the purchase of your p38 7er. Once the little bugs are ironed out these are really are underrated great cars both on and off the bitumen!! :D;)
I'm sure you'll keep us posted on the forum how the progression of p38 goes, naturally with pics?? A picture shared is a picture worth taking.

Gary

[johnyrover]

Glad you went with your heart on this one. The perfect p38 was not manufactured. You dont buy them for that anyway. It's going to be mostly emotion that keeps this beauty running. They really get under your skin. I was only ever a practical approach kinda guy with all my cars before the p38. Now nothings too much trouble (not that there has been much anyway). Just don't make the mistake of thinking you bought a toaster to drive around in - aka japenese car. Every time you drive it you will remember why you bought it.
Cheers
John:)

[7er]

Thanks everyone. It really does seem to have turned out to be a good buy.

I gave it a small test yesterday to make sure everything works as it should and it took the task superbly (still limited by 18" road tyres unfortunately - wheels look to be from an L322). Now I need to decide whether or not to buff out my fresh bush pinstripes yet - I discovered it's a lot wider than it feels down old disused bush tracks ;) And to think I was considering respraying the bonnet!

Sorry, I still haven't really taken any useful photographs! I took a couple and then my camera lens motor died, what's that tell me?

Thanks again!

[7er]

Out of curiosity, what was the single $6000 bill for? I'm hoping its not something that's likely to fail on my P38.
I was just a lot of little things.

It involved the new BeCM and a lot of rewiring of the rear half. Apparently some tailgate wiring shorted without breaking the fuse, which melted a lot of wiring in the rear of the vehicle (and is probably what did in the BeCM as well). Almost the entire rear half was rewired, plus they replaced the interior mirror, some switches, a leaky hose clamp, belt, wipers, CC vacuum hoses (which I just redid, they didn't last long!), new tie rods and track rod, removed plenum assembly and replace filter assembly, replaced both HeVAC intake filters, some new trim, a new interior lamp, wheel balance and front & rear alignment.

I think that was about it. :rolleyes:

[benji]

Wow! That quite a lot of work; and money.

Although its got a few issues it's had work done by the right people ; I think you're onto a winner.

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[TheTree]

Hi

I wonder how they did the rear alignment, since the only thing you can adjust on a P38 is the Front toe in !

Great value for all that work :D

Steve

[SpiggyTopes]

Sounds good!

Don't ignore the passenger door latch, especially if it opens and closes by itself ...

[7er]

Don't ignore the passenger door latch, especially if it opens and closes by itself ...
At the risk of making myself sound like a fool (if you're just joking - can't tell :p), I don't mean the door itself is opening and closing. I mean it thinks the door is open. The latch just needs a new microswitch. The problem seems to be lessening with use, and seems to happen mostly when driving up bumpy bush tracks.


Just an update while I'm at it, I pulled out my HeVAC head and found one of the plugs was a corroded mess (not sure what from - the heater o-rings can't drip onto that spot and I don't know what else it could've been).

I dismantled it and cleaned it up (couldn't spot any damaged components or traces) but it stills turns off as soon as the engine starts. I even played around with the blend door selection, fan speed and Auto functions and everything is working fine - until I start the engine. The only thing I noticed that wasn't right was that the external temp was reporting as 18 degrees (which it most certainly wasn't unfortunately).

Any more tips on the HeVAC? I'm yet to chase inputs, but it really seems to be a fault with the head itself. There is no 'book' fault symbol either (it does work as the symbol comes on if I pull a fan relay). I doubt it's a grounding issue as it works fine with the engine off.

[benji]

Have you got RAVE?
I'd be testing all the power feeds to make sure they are the right polarity at the right times.

If that checks out you may be up for a new unit.

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[7er]

Have you got RAVE?
I'd be testing all the power feeds to make sure they are the right polarity at the right times.

If that checks out you may be up for a new unit.

I have bits and pieces of it in PDF form and some other workshop manuals. Nothing that has the HeVAC wiring diagrams though.

I will start with the power and inputs when I next tackle it, but it got a bit too warm in the garage today for my liking so it'll have to wait for another day (I'd sure like to have the A/C though!).

I'm going away for a few days, but when I get back I might make a dedicated thread about the HeVAC; this one's not really relevant anymore is it? ;)

[TheTree]

Hi

Deoxit, though not cheap, is the bees knees for cleaning up those connections :p

Steve