Defender td5 130 clutch

[Daniel]

The clutch on my newly acquired td5 130 was normal.
Then it lost fluid so I replaced both master and slave cylinders.
All OK again although I had trouble getting rid of all the air but came good eventually.
I then parked it for a fortnight.
Got in started it and had no clutch release although had a firm pedal.
Got it going by starting in Lo range 1st and then increasing speed and up through gears not using clutch.
Then drove with clutch pedal depressed and brake on hard - large thud and clutch action back to normal.
Parked it for another fortnight and now cannot get clutch to release no matter what I do!!!!!

I assume that the clutch disc/plate have glued onto the flywheel?? perhaps with split fluid from the slave cylinder leaking????

What can I do??? perhaps fill the clutch housing with diesel or something? - or do I have to take the g/box out and do it properly???

Any and all suggestions appreciated.

[strangy]

I would suspect the Spigot Bush has seized.

and its box out do it properly.

[Daniel]

I would suspect the Spigot Bush has seized.

and its box out do it properly.

Thanks for your suggestion.
"spigot bush" - I would have thought that a 2000 td5 defender would have a spigot bearing rather than a bush. And if the bearing has siezed then the gearbox input shaft would spin inside the bearing long before it would drive the truck with the brakes fully applied.

waiting for more suggestions please.

[weeds]

Soo can you push the clutch in and select first..or is it and cannot select first??

[Daniel]

Soo can you push the clutch in and select first..or is it and cannot select first??

Thanks for your interest - I can push the clutch pedal and it feels normal however there is no declutching action.
The clutch is locked/engaged at all times as described in my initial post.

[nedflanders]

Definitely sounds like the friction plate has stuck to the flywheel somehow. Any proper repair is a box off job I guess. Need to do mine soon as my flywheel is on its way out :(

[BilboBoggles]

If the fluid has contaminated the lining I suppose it's possible that it's rusted it self together - Personally I would try to get it to separate again, and then drive it as much as possible for a few weeks. With lots of low speed clutch action to get some heat into the lining. I don't think the TD5 flywheel takes well to too much heat and will develop hot spots easily, so just a good deal of driving might wear off the damaged clutch surface.

When you do get it separated - you may be able to prop the clutch into the engaged position with some sort of wooden stick, that might reduce the chances of another stuck even until it clear itself out.


Diesel in the clutch is a bad thing, and will root the clutch lining and dissolve the grease out of the release bearing. Perhaps a judicious squirt of Isopropynol Alcohol cleaner through the drain plug would flush the clutch fluid out.

[Psimpson7]

"spigot bush" - I would have thought that a 2000 td5 defender would have a spigot bearing rather than a bush.

.

You would be wrong. They still have a bush

[Daniel]

You would be wrong. They still have a bush

OK thanks - being a bush makes it even less likely to sieze and act as if the clutch is locked up.

[Daniel]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

I found that the clutch housing had about 1 litre of brake/clutch fluid in it - nice and black from corroding steel. I'll put about 2 litres of brake cleaner into the clutch housing and drive till hot to make sure it gets into every nook and cranny.

The advice from a brake & clutch workshop is this -- "make sure your bull bar is strong and drive it into a tree - this will free up the clutch disc".

My bull bar isn't that strong so initially I will hook up a strong chain to a tree and drive off in 2nd high range.

I will keep you updated as to progress.

[strangy]

OK thanks - being a bush makes it even less likely to sieze and act as if the clutch is locked up.
Wrong again.;)

[Daniel]

Wrong again.;)

I can only guess that you are referring to your own advice??

The brake&clutch workshop said that the torque of an engine being applied down to a 30mm diameter bronze bush would tear it apart long before it drove the truck. The word is that the brake/clutch fluid virtually welds the clutch disc to the flywheel/clutch plate.

[Ancient Mariner]

Use third gear high range with clutch pedal on floor and keep jerking on and off with throttle might take some time but less dramatic than the tree :o

[Daniel]

Use third gear high range with clutch pedal on floor and keep jerking on and off with throttle might take some time but less dramatic than the tree :o

Thanks but already tried that for half an hour and more.

For the first episode that worked after 5 minutes but this second episode is proving far more stubborn. I should have injected some diesel or oil onto the clutch plate after the first episode but didn't think that it would re-occur.

Unfortunately the td5 has a clutch pedal sensor and drive by wire throttle which limits the engine torque to almost zero in this situation so is far harder to do this than in an older mechanical diesel.

I suspect that the tree at speed will have to be the solution!!

[TeamFA]

Unfortunately the td5 has a clutch pedal sensor and drive by wire throttle which limits the engine torque to almost zero in this situation so is far harder to do this than in an older mechanical diesel.

I disconnected said clutch pedal sensor in the last couple of months, it made a vast improvement to the responsiveness of the engine during and directly after gear changes. Easily the best value for money modification I've done.

[Daniel]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

The advice from a brake & clutch workshop is this -- "make sure your bull bar is strong and drive it into a tree - this will free up the clutch disc".

My bull bar isn't that strong so initially I will hook up a strong chain to a tree and drive off in 2nd high range.

I will keep you updated as to progress.

Tried for an hour continually driving off at speed with clutch pedal depressed and chained up to tree with 20 metres of chain - nearly snapped all axles as well as head off shoulders - no relief ... ah well back to removing t/case and gearbox I guess.....

[nedflanders]

What about spraying a can of aerosol brake cleaner into the bell housing :)

[jimr1]

Hi Daniel , I don't know were you got hooking a chain to a tree , then driving to try and fix your clutch came from , all that will do is more damage to the drive train , as for squirting this or that inside a bell housing , I have never heard of that working either . I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong . At the end of the day It's fixable ,but the gearbox may have to come out . Let us know how you go . cheers jimr1 ..

[Daniel]

Hi Daniel , I don't know were you got hooking a chain to a tree , then driving to try and fix your clutch came from , all that will do is more damage to the drive train , as for squirting this or that inside a bell housing , I have never heard of that working either . I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong . At the end of the day It's fixable ,but the gearbox may have to come out . Let us know how you go . cheers jimr1 ..

Jim - That idea came from a brake/clutch workshop - it normally works but with my truck the sticking clutch disc has just glued itself on too hard. I'm now converting one of the bellhousing drain plugs with a barbed hose fitting and pumping the bellhousing with penetrating oil. At the end of the day the gearbox may have to come out but I want to try everything else first.

[strangy]

I think this clutch/ brake shop is run out the back of butchery.
These ideas you are so desperate to try are futile in that you are going to damage something and none of them are going fix your problem.
The time you have already spent being a tight arse and pursuing damaging practices could have had you with box out and the problem sorted.
But I guess you can't do this job yourself and the idea of paying a grand or so to the mungo boys at the place you are getting your advice from is a bit much.
Maybe you should lengthen the chain and get more of a run up or try a tug of war with a road train.:0

[Daniel]

I think this clutch/ brake shop is run out the back of butchery.
These ideas you are so desperate to try are futile in that you are going to damage something and none of them are going fix your problem.
The time you have already spent being a tight arse and pursuing damaging practices could have had you with box out and the problem sorted.
But I guess you can't do this job yourself and the idea of paying a grand or so to the mungo boys at the place you are getting your advice from is a bit much.
Maybe you should lengthen the chain and get more of a run up or try a tug of war with a road train.:0

1. clutch/brake shop - renowned business and well acquainted with rural vehicle problems - in business for 50 years and more.
2. tight .... - no not really, worked once also trying again.
3. I can do it myself and am doing so if you have not worked that out already - how thick are you.. really...

[weeds]

you mentioned you found 1L of clutch fluid in the bell housing.....have you checked you slave cylinder as this is the only way clutch fluid can get into the bell housing. could it be that fluid is by-passing the seals but still giving you a pedal?

on my 300tdi i have had the push rod wear a hole in the fork.....twice, 4yrs between events. it still gave me a pedal but the cluch would not dis-engage......not sure if the td5 has the same fork as a 300ti.....

hth.......

i do agree with the others that your approach to freeing up the plate is a bit extreme.......box out i reckon so that you can have agood look

[Daniel]

Thanks, yes that's how it all started ....

I bought this dog with a leaking slave cylinder. THe previous owner had just kept topping up the fluid ... filling up the bellhousing.....
Replaced both master and slave and then the clutch froze.
No more leaks.
The pedal is doing exactly as it should do as I have another 130 td5 to compare with.
As stated previously it froze once before and after driving it a little bit managed to get it working through heavy throttle and heavy brakes whilst clutch depressed.

I am running out of ideas and patience ... so gearbox will be coming out next Sunday if the penetrating oil does not do its work in the mean time.

[Daniel]

i do agree with the others that your approach to freeing up the plate is a bit extreme.......box out i reckon so that you can have agood look

This is a fairly common practice in the bush with tractors etc

either drive into a tree or pull a chain from the tree

[weeds]

This is a fairly common practice in the bush with tractors etc

either drive into a tree or pull a chain from the tree

i guess i have never had a clutch lock up so haven't really thought about options to free it.........

i had to drive my defer back from cooma to brisbane without a clutch. red lights were a pain......

[Daniel]

[QUOTE=weeds;2035915]i guess i have never had a clutch lock up so haven't really thought about options to free it.........

i had to drive my defer back from cooma to brisbane without a clutch. red lights were a pain......[/QUOTE

Been there and done that plenty of times with various vehicles over my driving life ....

What was your def clutch problem???

[weeds]

[QUOTE=weeds;2035915]i guess i have never had a clutch lock up so haven't really thought about options to free it.........

i had to drive my defer back from cooma to brisbane without a clutch. red lights were a pain......[/QUOTE

Been there and done that plenty of times with various vehicles over my driving life ....

What was your def clutch problem???

clutch push rod puch a hole though the fork......didn't actually know the problems until the box was pulled out. i removed the slave three times to try and worko out the problem. it was at the 60th, had plenty of peple offer advice and parts but nobody could pin point the problem

[strangy]

1. clutch/brake shop - renowned business and well acquainted with rural vehicle problems - in business for 50 years and more.
2. tight .... - no not really, worked once also trying again.
3. I can do it myself and am doing so if you have not worked that out already - how thick are you.. really...

Daniel grow up.
You don't know me but have certainly decided I am thick.
Don't go calling people thick who offer you information you don't like.:censored:

You asked for advice here because you and your bumpkin brake and clutch experts couldn't find a bodgey fix to the problem without resorting brute force. The expert brake and clutch people and yourself who didnt even know the R380 had a spigot bush......and didnt/couldnt find the time or have the sense to findout.......That is thick.:censored:
Just because we used to blow stumps out of the ground with geli doesn't mean it was smart.

Just had an idea why don't you try that?:twisted: sounds right up your alley.

Put on your blue striped apron, pick up your hammer and shifter and get to work if you can do it yourself, don't bother responding here because you are wasting everyones time with smart alec comments.

Just let us know when you've fixed it, don't bother responding with how you bodged it.
Unless the geli worked and then post pics.:eek:
Please also put up your vin number so some unsuspecting person can avoid buying your clunker when you've finished playing mechanic.

cheers:D

[Daniel]

Daniel grow up.
You don't know me but have certainly decided I am thick.
Don't go calling people thick who offer you information you don't like.:censored:

You asked for advice here because you and your bumpkin brake and clutch experts couldn't find a bodgey fix to the problem without resorting brute force. That is thick.:censored:
Just because we used to blow stumps out of the ground with geli doesn't mean it was smart.

Just had an idea why don't you try that?:twisted: sounds right up your alley.

Put on your blue striped apron, pick up your hammer and shifter and get to work if you can do it yourself, don't bother responding here because you are wasting everyones time with smart alec comments.

Just let us know when you've fixed it, don't bother responding with how you bodged it.
Unless the geli worked and then post pics.:eek:
Please also put up your vin number so some unsuspecting person can avoid buying your clunker when you've finished playing mechanic.

cheers:D


perhaps you are not as thick as I first thought, despite all the symptoms that were there!

I have blown up at least 50 stumps with dynamite in my time so at least you are correct on that one.

[nedflanders]

Back on topic rather than trading personal insults, I do think that chaining your car to a tree and driving may be good for a tractor but a Land Rover is going to suffer more damage than a clutch would cost, factor in a dual mass flywheel as well as that's probably well shot after all the shock loading, it' just not designed for that sort of abuse. There is a kit from the UK that converts it to a solid flywheel that may be worth considering :)

[Daniel]

Back on topic rather than trading personal insults, I do think that chaining your car to a tree and driving may be good for a tractor but a Land Rover is going to suffer more damage than a clutch would cost, factor in a dual mass flywheel as well as that's probably well shot after all the shock loading, it' just not designed for that sort of abuse. There is a kit from the UK that converts it to a solid flywheel that may be worth considering :)

What are the pros and cons of a non std flywheel for a Defender?

[nedflanders]

A solid flywheel is going to be stronger with less to go wrong but there are reports of a rattle at idle from the friction plate springs, dual mass flywheels were fitted to smooth out engine vibrations but they do fail, they're basically two plates connected by springs, tieing a chain round a tree to free off a stuck friction plate could cause damage somewhere. Its recommended any clutch change on the TD5 the flywheel is also replaced, not sure on Australian price but they're £250 plus shipping for the dual mass flywheel alone.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

A solid flywheel is going to be stronger with less to go wrong but there are reports of a rattle at idle from the friction plate springs, dual mass flywheels were fitted to smooth out engine vibrations but they do fail, they're basically two plates connected by springs, tieing a chain round a tree to free off a stuck friction plate could cause damage somewhere. Its recommended any clutch change on the TD5 the flywheel is also replaced, not sure on Australian price but they're £250 plus shipping for the dual mass flywheel alone.

I have a solid flywheel in my TD5 110. Yes the rattle is there at tickover when your foot is not on the clutch, but it isn't loud and certainly wouldn't stop me putting another one in.

Sent using Forum Runner

[Daniel]

OK - a final update for those that are interested.....

1. Squirted some water on to the top of the clutch to flush out the brake fluid.
2. Let the truck sit there for a fortnight.
3. Hooked up the chain again to the tree and drove off.
4. Clutch released with a bang.
5. Clutch id now working as per normal

.... goes to show that the brake/clutch workshop really did know what they were doing.......

[rangieman]

OK - a final update for those that are interested.....

1. Squirted some water on to the top of the clutch to flush out the brake fluid.
2. Let the truck sit there for a fortnight.
3. Hooked up the chain again to the tree and drove off.
4. Clutch released with a bang.
5. Clutch id now working as per normal

.... goes to show that the brake/clutch workshop really did know what they were doing.......

Well done congrats it worked :D .
Sometimes bush mechanics can and do work :angel:

[nedflanders]

Well done congrats it worked :D .
Sometimes bush mechanics can and do work :angel:

Did you ask these bush mechanics what effect this would have on your flywheel, good luck hope it lasts, when you get that shudder in 1st pulling away you'll know its time for flywheel/clutch.

[Daniel]

Yeah OK thanks - that's an interesting symptom to look out for - we run 4 td5 engined LRs around the paddocks with between 140k and 350k kms and none of them have any shuddering when letting out the clutch. We work them hard even pulling out bogged 5 tonne 4wd tractors at times. Actually come to think of it I have never had to change a clutch in any vehicle I have owned although in the last few years I have left the old manual transmissions where they belong - on farm trucks.