Recovery Points

[Bytemrk]

Hi Guys,

Looking for some advise.... How strong are the factory recovery points on a D2? Would you use them for a real recovery situation?... or are they really glorified tie downs for anchoring on a ship?


If they are not the go.... and suggestions on what and where the best options are?

Would want to find out the hard way!!.. 8O

[hook]

On the rear I only use the tow hitch pin, (removeable type) not the tow ball it's self.
on the front I have an ARB bull bar and have found the eyelet on the bottem of the bar to hold up so far, have had a few hard snachem straps recoverys. I was at first a bit reluctant to use theses.
would like to put a pair of jate rings on the chassis, frount and rear.

[bigbugga]

I havnt had a look under a D2 so am not sure where they are mounted.

But if they have anything like my D1 then they are onoy tie down shipping points.

Mine has a "U" shaped length of steel welded onto the rail's under the frount and rear.

Wouldnt trust these at all for any recovery or towing situation.

[Timmo]

I too use the rear tow hitch pin on the D1, however i believe the rings at the back are ok to use as recovery points. Haven't recovered from the front, but i think i would be inclined to use those U things rather than the eyelets under the bullbar. Have always intended to bolt some proper hooks directly onto the chassis at the front.

Not that a Land Rover would ever get bogged....but it doesn't hurt to be prepared...... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[bigbugga]

I have an ARB bull bar and the eyelets under it are a rated recovery point.

The shipping tie downs have no rating.

[Timmo]

I have a poly bullbar......but think I will try and swap it for an ARB bar soon.... What brand is your roof rack BB??? It looks great....

[bigbugga]

Thinks hard to try and remember the damm brand, 8O




Nup cant do it and I am not going out into this rain storm to find out just now either.

BUT can say it can from Opposite lock.

I will see if I can find it in my Disco's history reciepts and let you know.

[Timmo]

Thanks BB.....if you find an approximate cost would be good as well.......might look for one on Ebay......do you have a long range fuel tank>??

[Bytemrk]

Thanks guys - confirmed my thoughts

BB the points on the D2 look just like yours sound - didn't think I'd want to trust them 8O

1 more thing on the shopping list :!:

[KEV0044]

...

[Bytemrk]

Thanks Kev it certainly does..


I am well aware of the potential danger if using in adequate points and my gut feeling told that those tie downs where certainly not strong enough..... but I thought I'd ask those with more experience than me... having now owned a Discovery for approximately 72 hours!... I have had previous 4x4 experience but some input from here is always welcome...


Will follow your suggestions... for the day in the future that I need recovering!

Cheers,
Mark

[one_iota]

As Kev says I don't think I would be using the front tie downs for a snatch recovery.

I still begs the question though?

The rear can be taken care of with a correctly rated tow bar and the appropriate attachment and everyone standing clear.

The front still remains a mystery. I've read of Jate rings and rated front mounted tow bars but has anyone found an engineered solution for front recovery points?

[Bushie]

Whilst taking on board Kevs comments about recovery points I would have thought the aftermarket bullbar (provided it is engineered properly) would represent an adequate recovery point.

My ARB bar is supporting a 8000lb winch although it is manufactured for a 10000lb. I do conceed the loads applied during winching are different to those applied during a snatch recovery. However if the load is distributed to more than one recovery point then I would assume the bar would be capable of withstanding that load (and I'm talking reasonable recovery methods). So the problem would be that of ensuring the recovery points are secured to the bar properly and then using a load distribution strap.

I do agree that the holes/loops on the ARB bar are not up to the job. Whilst I have used mine for snatch recovery in the past (before a bit of research) I stopped when I noticed how easily they bent when a winch load was applied (just reeling in the winch).

My current recovery points/hooks (from a mitsubishi truck) are mounted to the top of the bar and held with 2 high tensile bolts through a piece of 10mm flat plate (approx 150mmx50mm) under the bar. I would think it would be most unlikely that this would be able to be torn through the top of the bar (3'mm plate). They are positioned just outboard of the uprights.

Kev this is no way intended as any attack on your post but more an enquiry/question that will stimulate more discussion, even at the expense of proving my theory wrong.


Bushie

[hook]

KEV0044 Said
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The rear tow hitch with a 'genuine' Land Rover fitted tow bar , is rated at 4 tonne[/b][/quote]
Try finding the rating of the tow ball, no one can tell you. buy law you can only have a hich wight of 120 kg down force when towing a tralier, that is a big diffrence to 4 ton. It dose not have a shock loading as a with using a snachem strap. I have seen the tow ball ripped off on double Island point. Thats why I use the pin.

[Mick-Kelly]

Another point, a good recovery hook is only as good as the high tensile bolts its fitted with. Dont buy HT bolts from Bunnings and DIY. Spend the money and go to somewher like ARB and say hey guys heres some bucks fit me up a front recovery point. Theyll do it right the first time and its too expensive to do it any other way.

[one_iota]

A few points here:

The chassis of a Land Rover is rated to tow a load of 3500 kg with brakes but we are talking about towing a load on wheels. This is limited by the down load of 120 Kilos on the hitch. This is another parameter and perhaps not relevant to this discussion as it relates to the downward vector of force applied to the rear of the vehicle and how that might lift the front end of the vehicle.

What is the rated safe working load on your snatch strap?

The tow ball should never be used as an attachment for a recovery strap apart from the fact that the strap loop might slip off the ball. Kev did not say tow ball.

I think that Kev (and he will probably remain quiet) refers to a positive attachment to the hitch receiver whether it is the "warn" device or the hitch pin but certainly not the ball.

Dynamic recovery is a complex process and has so many variables engineered and procedural that Kev and I take no responsiblity for any comments made on this forum.

Catastrophy theory says that disaster will happen as a result of a series of small things going wrong.

Cover the bases, deal with the obvious restraints as best you can and stand clear because sh*t happens.

[Gidget]

the eyelets on the arb bull bars are not rated for recovery, they are for a bracket to adapt a high lift jack, I will have to look were my recovery hooks are exactly, but they are pretty much a staight pull from the chassis( I think) will look 2morrow.

[Bytemrk]

Looks like I opened a can of worms with this one... 8O 8O 8O

[bigbugga]

My comments about the eyelets in the ARB bar were from information given to me from ARB.

If this information if incorrect then you all have my apoligees.

[Timmo]

Getting an ARB bar...then gonna wath mud fly BB

[Defender200Tdi]

The easiest (& maybe strongest) solution for front recovery points - JATE rings:

http://www.aulro.com/albums/album37/Picture_037.sized.jpg

Always used in pairs with a bridle.

Available from Troutbeck sales for about $50 pr, in varying widths to suit rails with steering guards and/or bullbars attached. Troutbeck also do chassis mounted front recovery brackets to specifically suit Disco's or Rangies, but I don't have a photo of them.

Hope that's of some use. Anyone have a photo of the rear recovery hook designed to fit in the towbar receiver?

Paul

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Anyone have a photo of the rear recovery hook designed to fit in the towbar receiver? [/b][/quote]


This'd be it then?

http://www.warn.com/truck/accessories/images/118/Shackle.jpg

More details are here (http://www.warn.com/truck/accessories/shackle.shtml)

Anyone know where to get them in Oz & how much?


Paul

[KEV0044]

...

[strange_rover]

Gday all,
I can vouch for needing to have a good recovery point as during a recovery of my old 1960 S2 shorty from a river bed I hooked the recovery gear to the rear towing point which I thought was pretty solid but on pull time the whole towing set up along with a large portion of the rear cross member went hurtling towards the recovery vehicle. Nothing or no-one was hit or hurt in the incident but it brought it home to me that for the older vehicles, the recovery points must be checked constantly for signs of corrosion and just general serviceability.
We were just sooo lucky no-one was hurt.
Great idea that reece hitch recovery point though. I think I will get one of those!! 8)
Shano style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[harry]

8) this is very good info guys,and thank you all for your input.
i bought an 8ooo lb strap, 'cause one night i had to drag my son's mate out and [being a good dad who can get up in the middle of the night, drive 50k and pull a dipshxx out] spent the reimbursement [for breaking all my tie down straps] on a snatch strap.
great you say, yeah how great what do i hook it on to?
i replaced the tow bar yoke pin with a 90 ton aircraft bolt, 'cause i could [and 'cause its a hex head they ain't gunna steal my yoke]
but i never thought of the ball - its stamped 4500kg!
but as you have pointed out, thats not wot you can generate on a snatch situation.
however my query interest is about the 'snatch'
has any done any comps on how much 'snatch' force is created on a snatch recovery?
all very nice to get pulled out of a stiff situation, but at what price?
if we get saved by this method what damage does it do to the vehicles chassis alignment, if only pulled on one side, as in a front pull, [i guess the rear is usually going to be the tow bar as this is about the strongest bit on the back]
like how fast does the monkey saving you from the bog have to go?
the lenght of the strap, or is there some formula for this?
8) harry

[one_iota]

My grey matter and instincts have been challenged by this (but that is not hard):

http://www.yican.com.au/ADR/TechADR.html

There are some confronting ideas here.

[strange_rover]

The ADR looks very interesting, I have a question though, is it only designed for winch recoveries or can it be used for snatch recoveries also???????
Shano

[strange_rover]

Just found this site: http://www.lrm.co.uk/archive/modified%20ve...icles/Ibex.html (http://www.lrm.co.uk/archive/modified%20vehicles/Ibex.html)
ADR bridal cables
Another neat aid to recovery are the ADR bridal cables fitted to the front and rear axles. These help spread the load during a snatch recovery in the usual way but, being located to the lower suspension mountings on the axles (rather than the chassis), means that any pull will directly affect the wheels and help lift the axle out of the gloop, rather than pull on the chassis which will tend to extend the suspension and more often than not drag the axles deeper.

It also has a picture of the rear ADR cables on an IBEX. These look very useful and less stressful!!
Shano style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[harry]

8) one_iota,. you have provided a link to a very informative article, and strangy' i'm impressed that the ibex uses it,
that just about answers my questions, will look into it further, as i like the idea of a direct axle pull.
thanks boys.
8) harry

[Defender200Tdi]

I enquired about the ADR cable from the Australian agent a couple of months ago (before I bought my JATE rings). They had no stock, but were expecting some in March and would let me know when it arrives (haven't heard yet). The clincher for me though was the price $250. 8O I could have 6 sets of JATE rings for that, front & rear for 3 vehicles.


Paul

[VladTepes]

Bloody hell. Now I'm more confused and less happy than ever.

Soon after I got the 'fender I looked at this issue and took advice from many 4WD stores. The general consensus was: Very difficult to mount recovery points to a Land Rover / no experience doing so / too hard with box section rather than c section chassis / etc. STORE 1 (not to mention any names) said they could mount recovery hooks on the front of the vehicle (through the chassis) but at over $100 per hook !

As I was looking for a bar to replace the old rusty thing I had, I talked to ARB who did tell me that they had suitable recovery points on their bar. (I don't know whether there is any difference in these between the Defender and Disco bars) On that basis I went ahead and spent a LOT of money, thinking I was killing two birds with one stone. Now you are (perhaps) telling me that one of those birds is still very much kicking.

The rear was even more problematic. I couldn't bolt anything throught the chassis rails there in any case due to the towbar setup. This is a 'home made' towbar which looks as if it has been over-engineered to the buggery, and is VERY welded on the the chassis (making a replacement with a Hayman Reece bar etc very difficult / expensive. After discussing this with people from same 4WD stores the consensus was that it would be strong enough to drill the bar and mount a recovery hook, which I did). This is NOT utilising the tow ball in any way.

Also I have been getting a few blank looks when I ask if people have spreader straps in stock. What gives ? Not having seen one, I can only assume they are a strap that hooks between the (front) recovery points, to which the snatch strap is attached. How is this attachment done - is the spreader strap simply fed through the loop of the snatch strap ? (I wouldn't have thought a shackle would be used in this situation).


Originally posted by Defender200Tdi
... JATE rings:
Always used in pairs with a bridle.
Available from Troutbeck sales for about $50 pr, in varying widths to suit rails with steering guards and/or bullbars attached.Paul

Do you have a website for Troutbeck or contact details ?

Is a 'bridle' the same as a spreader strap or not ?

Thank You.

[KEV0044]

...

[fernockulated]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif hey kev , are you trying to give vlad the resident clown award or something???? style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[KEV0044]

...

[Timmo]

I'm with you on that Kev, forum is really entertaining these days! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[one_iota]

Vlad,

I have a spreader strap and I will give you the details in the clear light of day. But what I attach it to reamins a another Land Rover mystery :roll:

[harry]

8) i dunno, i want to see more on the cables, i think this is the way to go, more crap rusting away and unsprung weight, but it seems that its practical.
i dunno, p'raps most of the ground hugging bogged out situations only need to move forward a foot or so before they can get traction, and does that need some gung ho to rip you out or just a constant tug to get a bite?

and
i havn't heard anyone say what a gung ho snatchem fast forward does to the tow vehicle, what do they attach to [i hooked on to my tow ball and the roo bar for the kid/mate rescue, but i didn't have a snatch strap so i used good old land rover brute force applied by auto, which eventually came out by a sideways pull, 'cause it was deeper than the wheels, and by doing that it got his tyres to bite]
it surprises me that a land rover needs more recovery jiggas, and jate rings, wot?
8)harry

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Do you have a website for Troutbeck or contact details ?[/b][/quote]

Certainly do here (http://www.troutbecksales.com/)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Is a 'bridle' the same as a spreader strap or not ?[/b][/quote]

That's my understanding. The one I use is a webbing strap with reinforced loops at each end. I attach each end to the JATE rings with a (rated) shackle after passing it through the end of the snatch strap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I couldn't bolt anything throught the chassis rails there in any case due to the towbar setup.[/b][/quote]

Vlad
Is it possible to use the JATE ring idea on the rear chassis rails as well? If you have sufficient access to the pre-drilled holes where the factory tie-down rings were fitted, and depending on how much metalwork is attached to the rails, you might get away with extra width JATE rings that are wide enough to go accross the chassis rails and towbar mountings. Just a thought. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif


As I understand it, on a Defender, a well mounted towbar like the Hayman Reese style is perfectly adequate to use for recovery. It is, after all, mounted to the rear crossmember as well as the chassis rails using high tensile bolts. The towball itself however, is not sufficient for recovery. A rated shackle through the towbar tongue is a much better way, or better still, one of those hitch mounted things we were talking about above.

By the way, I'm no particular fan of JATE rings. It's just that in Landrover terms they seem to be an economic and efficient way of solving the recovery point issue. Their main disadvantage as I see it, is their location. On the underside of the chassis rails and guaranteed to be a right PITA to get to when you're up to your axles in sand or mud. (Get the shovel) :x IMO a bullbar incorporating sufficiently reinforced recovery points (which the ARB eyes dont seem to be) would be a better solution. The ADR cable idea seems to me to be best of all, but the price is just plain silly!

Anyway, that's just my opinion. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

I reckon there are many different ways of skinning this cat and I'm sure the collected knowledge of this forum could come up with plenty of different options.

Maybe some of the guys that have their recovery points sorted out could post a photo or two? It would be good to see some different solutions in the flesh :oops: (so to speak).

Paul

[Mick-Kelly]

On the topic of advice from 4WD shops, I was a bit amazed yesterday when I was looking at some other gear and asked about front recovery points. I was anticipating them quoteing for fitting a couple of hooks but the bloke said nah dont worry about that we just use the tie down loops for snatches at the front 8O :!:
Obviously I wont put a name to the shop but this was a big shock for a newbie to hear something that, even I know will get you into trouble kinetically speaking.

[VladTepes]

Yeah the advice I was getting sounded good (at the time) but that is just plain stupid 8O - and as you say pretty obvious even to a newbie at this whole four wheeling thingy that it is stupid.

I'd like to see them having a close look at that recovery :!: What? Stand 3 times the strap length away :?: Totally not needed. (Or so would go their advice, it seems).

Probably tried to sell you paperclips instead of rated shackles as well did they :?:

[one_iota]

Defender200Tdi,

Sensible words. Love to see some photos too.

Mick-Kelly,

I guess most 4wd shop assistants are employed to sell and not to recover.

Vlad,

Or Duck Tape

I still go back to the idea that successful and safe recovery requires a number of things to be in place like the links in a chain. Every link needs to be checked otherwise you have a space shuttle situation.

or to state the bleeding obvious not getting stuck in the first place. :roll:

[VladTepes]

Originally posted by one_iota
Or Duck Tape


Umm, I think you mean DUCT tape :!:

I have no idea what DUCK tape is, but I think you may be sharing just a bit too much of your personal life. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[one_iota]

http://www.ducktapeclub.com/ style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif

[Phoenix]

8O 8O OMG, such a thing exists!!!

Oh well, this is the internet, what else should I expect style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Mick-Kelly]

Son, go get daddys rifle 8O

[VladTepes]

That's just silly

[Mick-Kelly]

Back to the ubject at hand, what about my steering guard, suppose its the same problems as the bull bar

[VladTepes]

Or probably worse.

What is it made of, how is it attached, and what it is attached to :?:

[one_iota]

Originally posted by Mick&#045;Kelly
Son, go get daddys rifle 8O

To complete the story:

It's called claimin' the high moral ground, boy

[Pedro_The_Swift]

its an interesting thought,, daddys rifle,,


a better one is how many times we've been bogged and have pulled people out backwards or forwards,,


or how often we've towed people out from the back or front,,


I've done a few,,

maybe 25,, mostly sand,

ALL from the their front,,, 8O

[VladTepes]

Which means THEY needed good front recovery points and YOU needed good REAR ones. (I assume).

How many bits of plastic cars have you managed to rip off in those efforts :?: style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif - Some of those 'soft roaders' don't seem to have ANY recovery points or places to put them.

[Bushie]

Originally posted by VladTepes
How many bits of plastic cars have you managed to rip off in those efforts :?: :lol: - Some of those 'soft roaders' don't seem to have ANY recovery points or places to put them.

Back in my younger and totally inexperienced 4wheelin days I managed to rip part of the bullbar off a hilux (or should I call it a wetlux) that was stuck in a creek, luckily it was the owner that attached the snatch strap. No damage other than to the bullbar.



Bushie

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Originally posted by VladTepes
Which means THEY needed good front recovery points and YOU needed good REAR ones. (I assume).

How many bits of plastic cars have you managed to rip off in those efforts :?: :lol: - Some of those 'soft roaders' don't seem to have ANY recovery points or places to put them.


Yea, the square tube Hayman Reese type towbar is nearly impervious to ****ups, ( oops )
just take the tube out and use the pin and I reckon I could shift the Cherry Venture,, 8O


never ripped a front mount off anything yet,, the sand seems to be a great medium for snatching,,,,






( i KNOW theres a joke there somewhere,,, 8O )

[Mick-Kelly]

Just reading 4WD mag where one guy wrote in because the testers bad mouthed his brand of soft roader. Apparently he thinks it really is a quality fourby even though he got his plastic sump guard and front bumper assembly ripped right of the vehicle when doing a sand snatch using the factory recovery points style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif
That would have been one of those times when i would have fallen over laughing. :twisted:

[Mick-Kelly]

BTW the steering guard is bolted to the chassis rails, its sort of two v structures running point down with a dirty great tube joining them at the bottom if you know what i mean. Looking at it the physics would be all wrong for lateral heay loads.

[VladTepes]

Well there you go then.....

[Defender200Tdi]

Now this gets more interesting. Dropped in to ARB in Adelaide Friday for a few things, and whilst there I got to chatting about the front recovery point issue. The ARB guy was quite adamant that the eyes on the bottom of the ARB bullbars are rated for snatch recovery both on the winch and non-winch versions or their bars!! :?

So what do we do? I now have (Defute's) ARB bullbar on my Defender (thanks Marcel style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif ), which has made the chassis rails too wide for the existing JATE rings. Do I get new JATE rings wide enough to fit over the bullbar mounts as well as the chassis rails, drill the chassis to fit the more commonly avaliable hook thingies or trust ARB and use the recovery eyes on the bullbar? :roll:


Paul

[VladTepes]

They told me the same thing and to be fair I don't really have any reason NOT to believe them.

I have never actually MET anyone who has had (or even seen) these let go.

And if ARB were advertising these points as rated points but they commonly failed it would surely be lawsuit time, so I don't think they'd promote them as rated points if they were not.

My opinion anyway.

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think they'd promote them as rated points if they were not. [/b][/quote]

I tend to agree. But I cant find anything actually written by ARB, just what the saleman says. I know I'm being pedantic but...


Paul

[VladTepes]

but... rightly so.

[KEV0044]

...

[Bushie]

Originally posted by Defender200Tdi
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I don't think they'd promote them as rated points if they were not.

I tend to agree. But I cant find anything actually written by ARB, just what the saleman says. I know I'm being pedantic but...
Paul[/b][/quote]


Strangely I managed to find this but as its not direct from ARB I would suggest that you have to take it with a grain of salt.
http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/product...drivetrain.html (http://www.pangaea-expeditions.com/products/brand/ARBdrivetrain.html)

In this litigeous society that we now live I doubt that you wouls get ARB to categorically back their recovery points (as they have no control over how they will actually be used). I have heard reports that ARB will not even fit a recovery point to a vehicle anymore (would like to think this is wrong).


Bushie

[VladTepes]

They (ARB) wouldn't fit some of those 'aftermarket' recovery hooks to my Defender on the basis it is not suitable or too difficult or something. Told me the bullbar had suitable recovery points in any event.

(Not that they'd be trying to sell me an expensive bullbar :wink: . Although they did...)

I'm still waiting on a reply from ARB.

[bigbugga]

Originally posted by VladTepes


I'm still waiting on a reply from ARB.

Same here, waiting for something in writing.

[Defender200Tdi]

BB & Vlad

Any word from ARB yet?


Paul

[VladTepes]

No word as yet.
(Hardly a surprise to you, I'm sure).

On the upside - I got an equaliser strap from TJM yesterday for $35.

TJM Geebung - great service !

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>No word as yet.
(Hardly a surprise to you, I'm sure). [/b][/quote]

Hmmm...not surprised, but disappointed. I'd actually like to be able to use the points on the bar with some confidence because there's a fair bit of fluffing around to fit any other sort of recovery points now that the ARB bar is on. Anything that is directly attached to the chassis rails looks likely to be higher than the lowest edge on the bar, and that means whatever you attach to the recovery points will be pulled up against the bottom of the bar...far from ideal. :roll:

I need to think more about this one. :?

[VladTepes]

That's exactly the conclusion I came to.

I would use the ARB points (with an equaliser strap) on a direct pull with FAR more confidence than anything where the strap is going to rub on another surface as you describe. That is likely to cause wear on the strap and probable breakage - usually at an inopportune moment.

[KEV0044]

...

[VladTepes]

I can't find anyone that will do that sort of work for me.

Also mine is an ARB winch bar - could the set up you describe still be done with that bar ?

The photo isn't that clear to me - that is, I can't see exactly how the hooks protrude from the bar (looking at the mounting of my bar to the chassis I can't see how it could be done).

Do you have the details of the magazine / issue the article was in ?

Thanks.

[Bushie]

The article was in a "4WD Monthly" mag from memory.

I would be wary of that fitment from a rego perspective (at least in NSW) as it may be a cause for rejection.

Reasons for Rejection
1. Any attachment or protrusion projecting forward of bull bar.


Vehicle inspector Bulletin (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vib05.pdf)


Bushie

[bigbugga]

Originally posted by Defender200Tdi
BB & Vlad

Any word from ARB yet?


Paul

Not a peep, still trying with some other people who should be able to get me an answer.

[aloa9061]

I have a defender 300tdi with arb front bar. i bent both my "recovery" hooks whilst reeling in my winch cable too quickly. these cannot seriously be seen as suitable. ARB has to my knowledge and experience done sweet F$$$K all to help customers with Landies and i assume will not begin any time soon. If i was to use ARB in the future use ARB southside and ask for Andrew. He was a good honest bloke with fair quotes and cutomer retention. Put it this way i have a store twenty minutes from me and i drive the hour if i need
ARB.

I'm busy installing front recovery hooks to both chassis rails through the origional holes for the tie downs with high tensile bolts as well as a new hole further back. I use a 10000lb tree trunk protector on both my curent and previous vehicles and have found no rubbing as long as they have been attached properly.

be wary of salesman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[KEV0044]

...

[VladTepes]

Originally posted by aloa9061
I have a defender 300tdi with arb front bar. i bent both my "recovery" hooks whilst reeling in my winch cable too quickly

Pretty **** poor I would have to say.

Could this be a result of the loading being almost entirely sideways on the hooks, rather than the more or less straight pull with a snatch recovery ?

Make sure you take some pics of your new setup as these would be a great addition to this thread and even possibly as an article for the newsletter.

Thanks.

[aloa9061]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif
I agree with the pretty **** poor especially since it was my mate who did it? same clown who bent my tailshaft!!!!!

Anyway the install went beautifully. pain in the ass but result is great.

The front chasis rails have a very narrow circle in which to put a spanner in to bolt up the recovery hooks. my solution was to take an old 19mm spanner and cut in half. then file down the sides of the open ended section.

I have installed the hooks facing downwards for ease of access and ease of installation.

You can use the origional hole on the bottom of the chasis rails as a pilot and then widen and drill the rear hole. then simply bolt up.


The advantage of this method is that thehigh tensile bolts supplied can be used and a direct even pull off the chasis can be achieved. I tested these out today and they did not rub at all whilst i was snatched up a hill this arvo.

I am much happier with this setup and will try to get photos up asap.
cheers

[VladTepes]

Looking forward to the photos - hopefully it will be something I can replicate.

Perhaps you'd be able to provide a bit more detail - eg what bolts (lengths etc) did you need/use, how did you drill the holes out (was there plenty of clearance for the drill?) and so on.

Thanks.

[aloa9061]

I simply bought a good recovery hook from my supplier and used their high tensile bolts. used the oridional hole on the underside of the chasis rails as the first pilot and then drilled another in line further back. using a little wd40 i then expanded the holes. plenty of room for the drill but to be fair my car was on a hoist so access was easier. will put up photos when i get a chance.

you need a pretty good drill for the job as well as eye protection as the metal is bloody hot when it gets drilled out. (i was borrowing a mates.)

cheers
Andy

[VladTepes]

ARB reply to enquiry

As I mentioned I asked ARB about the recovery points on ARB bars. While the response did not specifically answer my enquiry, it was as follows:


Originally posted by ARB

Thank you for your e-mail inquiry!

In answer to your question about the recovery points on the ARB deluxe bull bar;

Generally it is best to use the standard recovery points on the chassis of your
car for snatch recovery, however, some of our bars have provision for recovery
hooks to be fitted on the uprights. Most new model bars are being designed
without the two eyes at the front, as they now have polyurethane buffers over the
front of the bars adding to pedestrian safety.

I hope the above information is helpful, if you have any further queries you can
contact me on (07) 3266 3255 during business hours.

Kind Regards
Allan Sharpley
ARB Brisbane


ARB Corporation Ltd.
615 Nudgee Road
Nundah, Qld, 4012
Ph: (07) 3266 3255
Fax:(07) 3266 3288


I have replied to ARB seeking more specific details and will advise if I receive a response.

[Defender200Tdi]

Hmmm...that pretty much answers the question I think. The fact that they aren't prepared to say the eyes are OK, means to me that they are not suitable.

They mention fixing recovery hooks to the uprights on the bar. I think that would be a good solution to the problem, and better than attempting to fix hooks to anywhere else on the bar, reinforced or not. Consider that the uprights are actually the same members that are used to attach the bar to the chassis (and indeed continue down to form the existing recovery eyes). The rest of the bullbar i.e., the horizontal bit, is actually a separate member(s) that is welded to the uprights. To my thinking, a straight pull would be best applied to hooks attached to the uprights rather than any other point on the bar if direct attachment to the chassis was not practical. My only concern with this would be bending or twisting the uprights in the event of a snatch recovery that was not directly inline. Using a bridle would probably prevent this for most situations I would imagine???

What's everyone else think?

Paul

[VladTepes]

I think I don't know. :?

Theguy from ARB has invited me to ring him to discuss the matter, and I shall when I get my Defender back from the fix it up people.

[hook]

Just finished putting front recovery point on HOK..http://www.aulro.com/modules.php'set_albumName=album65&id=S3600039&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.phpmore on page 7 in the gallery HOK under the knife page 2 they are from https://www.expeditionexchange.com/smb/

[Defender200Tdi]

That's a really neat solution Hook. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

It seems like a good arrangement for people in States that will allow attachments to the front of the bullbar. You guys in NSW will have to come up with some other alternative I guess. :roll:

I note the Expedition Exchange is in USA, are they available in Australia or did you mail order them?

Paul

[Phoenix]

Very Tidy Hook, Ironically, the recovery points on the front of Grover are exactly the same, just a little larger. Only difference being is that mine are for lifting and recovery. Much less likely to break than a hook in my opinion.

Now I just need to get mine fixed :oops:

Just tried to find a pic of mine, but I can;t find a decent one, i'll need to grab the missuses camera.

[VladTepes]

Yeah hook - I like em.

1. How much ?
2. What are the backing plates made from....
3. What are the bolts holding them on ? They must have a lot of tensile strength but they don't look that way. ARe the bolts provided with the hooks ?

[KEV0044]

...

[Timmo]

Hook, went to the gallery to check out your recovery points, and was admiring your snorkel while i was there. It doesn't seem to extend forward along the side of the car as far as some of the ones I have seen, which makes it look better.

Does your disco have the square airbox? Also does it have ABS (this does make a difference to snorkel fitment apparently!)?

Thanks

[VladTepes]

Kev raises an interesting point:

An accident between a car and a predestraian is always going to go badly for the pedestrian - the fitting of some recovery hooks as described notwithstanding.

But uf you didn't fit them it might then be argued in court that a 4wd accident resulting from the lack of proper recovery points makes the owner of the vehicle culpable.

Can't have it both ways can we ?

No offence meant, but - Bloody Lawyers ! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[KEV0044]

...

[VladTepes]

I know there are restrictions here but I think oje has to wigh up if there are any real dangers, the chance of getting stopped/booked etc.

In QLD for example rod holders are OK as long as they are rotated around so they do not protrude, when not in use.

The Dept of Transport will have a booklet on vehicle modifications that talks about these issues. Should be free.

[hook]

#1 Backing plates are made from 5mm X 75mm flat plate X 15mm longer top and bottem. (what was laying around.)

#2 I think about AUD$140 door to door ( was a test to check postage from the US, my be-able to get more for the same postage..
US$35 on web paid US$30 less US$5 State Tax. Us$35 for postage.

#3 Bolts are 1/2". are high tensile, but only ones laying around,have allen key not hex head.

#4 Phoenix
Ironically, the recovery points on the front of Grover are exactly the same, just a little larger Yes the one on Army rover are 5/8 holes and used for A frame towing. Which is another use for mine.

#5 The snokel is a safari brand. No ABS and it dose make a diffrent, Yes to the square Air box.

SMB's
They stick up only about 12mm from front of Bull bar up rights less then the Army ones and I would have to be a good aim to get a predestraian.

Looked at Jate ring but would have to find them in the mud all the time.
Looked at hooks but not as sercure as shackels
[/quote]

[tempestv8]

Interesting to note that the latest ARB bull bars for the Disco IIa (2003MY) do not have those eyelets anymore.

So that definitely eliminates any possibility of doing snatch recoveries off the bullbar itself.

Lawrance

[VladTepes]

Interesting indeed :!:

Maybe they were just sick of being asked the question.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[rmp]

Originally posted by VladTepes
Interesting indeed :!:

Maybe they were just sick of being asked the question.... style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

Yes, well I asked it. I ended up putting two hooks facing downwards bolted to the chassis rail. There is one hole already which needs enlarging, the second one was drilled and now I have two high-tensile recovery hooks.

Landrover should have done that already though.

[landrovermick]

RMP - can you please post some pics - or if you are in sydney drop me a line - ill take em and post them

mick

[VladTepes]

Here's a new question:

Has anyone heard of the concept of 'direct axle recovery' ?

The theory goes (apparently) that in a coild sprong vehicle any recovery from the chassis or bull bar first fully extends the suspension before starting to pull the vehicle out of trouble. On the other hand, if the pulling force was applied to the unsprung portion of the vehicle at appropriate points, then the recovery could be more efficient and less likey to damage suspension components.

There's a fella I know who is looking into it re where to fit the points so they won't intefere with steering etc and where a recovery shouldn't break anything.

So - anyone got any ideas about this recovery method. :?:

[one_iota]

Originally posted by one_iota
My grey matter and instincts have been challenged by this (but that is not hard):

http://www.yican.com.au/ADR/TechADR.html

There are some confronting ideas here.

Go to page 4 of this topic.

Vlad,

Still no direct experience posted on this. :roll:

Should I be the first?

I've only been recovered once (by winch) but I dont drive on beaches nor deep sand and try to stay away from mud as it ruins the complexion.

I should be more adventurous although I think that the best way to stay out of trouble is not to get into trouble in the first place.

I would use a bridle strap to distribute the load on the existing tie down points and only if it looks gentle and no snatching.

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I enquired about the ADR cable from the Australian agent a couple of months ago (before I bought my JATE rings). They had no stock, but were expecting some in March and would let me know when it arrives (haven't heard yet). The clincher for me though was the price $250. I could have 6 sets of JATE rings for that, front & rear for 3 vehicles. [/b][/quote]

As I said back in March, $250! 8O That's a sizable sting for a bit of steel cable with a couple of eyes on the ends. Still haven't heard from him about the new stock by the way. :roll:


Paul style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[VladTepes]

I know a guy with an engineering firm who is considering making up a set (did I say this before) so if he does I'll see what price he wants for others...

[Defender200Tdi]

Excellent Vlad. Maybe we could do a group discount thingy. :mrgreen:


Paul style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[VladTepes]

Let's hope :!:
I'll let you know when I know more.

[Phoenix]

Thought i'd resurect this for reference :wink:

[VladTepes]

I haven't seen Dave for a while but when I do I'll ask him if he's still pursuing the idea... and whether they'll be cheaper than that.

Sure the ADR set is more expensive than the jate rings but theoretically it's a better way to recover a coil sprung vehicle.

[VladTepes]

Originally posted by hook
Just finished putting front recovery point on HOK. on page 7 in the gallery HOK under the knife page 2 they are from https://www.expeditionexchange.com/smb/


Originally posted by Defender200Tdi
That's a really neat solution Hook.

It seems like a good arrangement for people in States that will allow attachments to the front of the bullbar. You guys in NSW will have to come up with some other alternative I guess.

I note the Expedition Exchange is in USA, are they available in Australia or did you mail order them?

Paul

On this aspect I have been chatting to an Aussie recovery point bloke who after discussing with me exactly these issues has decided to manufacture and test a set of these type of recovery points. If all goes to plan he should be able to manufacture and sell locally cheaper than importing from USA and going through that hassle.

Having said that - what would you be prepared to pay for these - ie recovery points and backing plates as a set. :?:

[Phoenix]

Surely you would pay at least the same as a hook, say $50. If the quality of the work was good as high as $80 I would have thought to be reasonable.

[VladTepes]

Well he was talking sub $80price as an estimate but I suppose we'll see what comes of it.

I'm really interested (as he is of course) to hear feedback from others among you as I think we should encourage anyone local who is willing to make parts suitable for Land Rover applications.

[VladTepes]

Looks like they'll be provided in black powdercoat.

This seems like a good idea to me as it would blend nicely with the bar, and not be so obvious as an "addition that may protrude from the front of the bar" if you run into anyone who likes to play "by the book" so to speak.

Also a price of around $160 a pair including backing plate and hardware, is likely.

Comments please, and who is interested in buying some ?

I'll get some mounted to my bar as soon as they pass stress / load testing and I'll post a few pics at the same time.

[Phoenix]

If I didn't have some i'd get some. If you put a post on the overlander or 4wd monthly forums you may get a few sales as well.

[Defender200Tdi]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Comments please, and who is interested in buying some ?[/b][/quote]

Vlad,

Count me in! Let me know when they're ready and where to send the money.


Paul style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[duff]

G'day all,
Straight from the D2 workshop manual,, :wink: " the towing eyes at the front and rear of the vehicle are designed for vehicle recovery purposes only and must not be used to tow a trailer or caravan."

"FRONT: a single towing eye, set behind a removable panel in the front spoiler. DO NOT use the front lashing rings for towing" note, these front lashing rings are back near the gear box.

"REAR: A pair of towing eyes at the rear of the vehicle can be used as lashing rings and for towing another light vehicle."
The manual warns that "Snatch" Recovery should be avoided.... Now note it says should not must, which is a vast differance when reading maint manuals, and yes that is a convention for all international manuals. The Manual will use the terms warning, caution, or note, to highlight varying degrees of importance of a paragraph,, this paragraph did not warrant any of these highlights

I have questioned the LR tech dept on this one, and they have advised me that the TOWING EYES can be used for off road recovery,,, towing out of bogs and winching ETC style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif ,,, but try and avoid recovery from these points if it involves "snatching " which by intent will magnify the force exerted on these points. :evil:

I have used these three points a bit up here on the Cape to both tow and be towed out of bogs. 8O ......... but I have not snatch as yet :roll:

Hope this helps

[VladTepes]

Stress testing of the recovery points I mention above has showed breaking strain of a little over 13 ton. I'd say that oughta do it. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

I'll be getting a set in the next couple of weeks so stay tuned.

[VladTepes]

Anyone with an ARB Deluxe winch bar on their Defnder ?
I have no winch fitted and want to mount the recovery points as directly in line with the chassis as possible. Of course, I need to ensure that I don't interfere with any future mounting of a winch - so can anyone tell me exactly how far the winch extends ?

The recovery points have a one piece backing plate, as per the expedition plates mentioned earlier in this thread so I can't put them directly in line with the chassis, but reckon I could put them just outboard of the chassis on each side (and I only mean a matter of inches) :?:

Hook - I saw the setup in your gallery, but the link you had in an earlier post seems to be no good anymore (just in case you give a toss style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif )

[hook]

VladTepes
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Hook - I saw the setup in your gallery, but the link you had in an earlier post seems to be no good anymore (just in case you give a toss )[/b][/quote]
The Pics are still in the Gallery.
I'm not smart enought to put links on the pages.:oops: I thing someone else put the links in.
But Thanks. :wink:

[Defender200Tdi]

So have you fitted them yet Vlad...and where are the pictures of the completed job???


Paul style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[Bushie]

Originally posted by VladTepes
Anyone with an ARB Deluxe winch bar on their Defnder ?
I have no winch fitted and want to mount the recovery points as directly in line with the chassis as possible. Of course, I need to ensure that I don't interfere with any future mounting of a winch - so can anyone tell me exactly how far the winch extends ?


http://www.aulro.com/albums/album121/DSC00145.jpg

This is the underneath of an ARB deluxe bar (my hooks are directly above), the plate (looking) part visible in the picture is where the ARB nameplate is situated.

I have a hi mount so can't tell you how far out a low mount may come past the uprights.

http://www.aulro.com/albums/album121/landr...over_mod_01.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/albums/album121/landrover_mod_01.jpg)



Bushie