Defender towing

[chally]

Just completed first towing episode of 700ks distance with 2013 Defender 110. Towing a 16' single axle pop top caravan with weight of 1600kg and the 110 did it fine on the straight and level and returned 8ks for each litre of fuel sitting on 90 to 100kph. But come to crossing the Great Dividing Range and throw a few hills in to the mix and I was down to fourth gear on occasions to maintain a constant 2000rpm and the floor around the transmission was noticeably warm. For those that have towed is this heat normal over the floor area above the transmission? I can handle life in the slow lane but I would like to be sure that I am not overtaxing the mechanicals with this towing as I am planning a trip around Oz next year with this rig.

[jimr1]

Hi chally I have the td5 110 the gear box in this r380 , and that gearbox has oil cooler pipes going in a loop , so It doesn't do much but an oil cooler can be added . I have been thinking about upgrading to the Puma like you have ,so when I asked the question , does the 6 speed have an oil cooler or pipes ? I was told NO which was a bit of a surprise . I would have thought you could add an oil cooler even as an option . This would help keep the box cooler , that has to be a good thing , plus helping keep the floor from getting as hot . Up until now I don't know of anyone doing this . Maybe someone can add to this . cheers jimr1:)

[BilboBoggles]

May be the normal heat coming from the exhaust and catalytic converter. Under load they get very hot. Mine has an air leak somewhere near the handbrake, the air is pretty damned hot when I'm giving it some stick.

The 6 speed is used in the v8 mustang, but I don't think there is an aftermarket cooler available for that either.

[debruiser]

my 90 gets warm when towing, particularly the handbrake lever.... my leg rests against it (i'm 6 foot - with longish legs) it's a bit annoying at times.

[n plus one]

Just completed first towing episode of 700ks distance with 2013 Defender 110. Towing a 16' single axle pop top caravan with weight of 1600kg and the 110 did it fine on the straight and level and returned 8ks for each litre of fuel sitting on 90 to 100kph. But come to crossing the Great Dividing Range and throw a few hills in to the mix and I was down to fourth gear on occasions to maintain a constant 2000rpm and the floor around the transmission was noticeably warm. For those that have towed is this heat normal over the floor area above the transmission? I can handle life in the slow lane but I would like to be sure that I am not overtaxing the mechanicals with this towing as I am planning a trip around Oz next year with this rig.

Heat is normal - it seems to be largely from the exhaust and is made worse by the under car aerodynamics, particularly if you run with the windows down/heater on recirc.

If you tow regularly I'd recommend some sort of remap and increase the frequency of your transfer case oil changes.

[BilboBoggles]

A hot handbrake, that's worse when the windows are down or A/C on recirc, is most likely an air leak. The air under the car is hot, it's come past the radiator and the exhaust, any gap in the seat box/floor/trans tunnel will let air in when the windows are open. That air is hot as hell. So if you have a hot handbrake it could be a misplaced seal or gap in the panels.

[n plus one]

So if you have a hot handbrake it could be a misplaced seal or gap in the panels.

Lol, Defenders are constructed almost entirely from misplaced seals and panel gaps :p

[uninformed]

AFAIK, the MT82 (6 speed gearbox in current Defeneders) does not have a oil pump in it like the older R380 (5 speed gearbox in the earlier Td5s, Tdis). That is not to say that you cant put an oil cooler system in the gearbox, just it would mean a bit more work.

2 things I would do: #1, run synthetic oil in both the gearbox and t/case. #2 change it every 20k regardless of how good it looks inside.

You can get a little aluminium sump cover that adds about 500ml oil capacity for the t/case (LT230)

[RobnJane]

Interesting topic for me at the moment. We tow a Tvan and like to keep to around 95kmh when in traffic and then drop back to say 90kmh once the traffic drops off a bit.This means we are mainly travelling in 5th gear somewhere between 2100rpm to 2500rpm, this seems ok to me but am interested in what others may do.
Area around handbrake and floor area certainly gets warm, but post trip check of oils indicates all is working as it should.
Rob.

[beefy]

I would drop in to 6th and keep the diesel in its torque band. saves fuel and 1800-1900 is fine for a diesel to run at.

[uninformed]

I would drop in to 6th and keep the diesel in its torque band. saves fuel and 1800-1900 is fine for a diesel to run at.

That would be dependant on load and conditions. Not too many gearboxes like extended heavy use in overdrive….

[beefy]

old school thinking mate.

[uninformed]

old school thinking mate.

Can you give us the specs on the insides of the MT82 then? Surely you have read of the many 5th gear layshaft bearing failures in the R380.

BTW the gearbox that is in the LR is not identical to the one in the Mustanges and the Ford Rangers. AFAIK, they have some bigger bearings.

[Leroy_Riding]

i just turn the AC on and my handbrake lever goes from burning hot to freezing cold :D

towing nigh on 3 tons for 2000kms and the tunnel got warm but LR says it will tow 3.5ton so I believe that should mean it will tow 3.5 all the time without worry. drove the ex's fathers sIII and my shoes melted to the floor!!!!!!

[uninformed]

….. LR says it will tow 3.5ton so I believe that should mean it will tow 3.5 all the time without worry...

I once blindly and naively thought the same. Good luck with that.

[william mcallan]

Hi, for those interested I have a 2009 110 Puma 2.4 and currently are in Darwin NT. I have towed a Jayco van for nearly 4400k’s so far and on way to Broome. I am using Mobil 1 engine oil (0-30) synthetic in engine, and fully synthetic oils GL5 in trans, (GL4 synthetic) in gearbox. So far it has done a faultless job the van is 21ft and the vehicle has long range tank and carrying about a tonne, all up with van GVM is about 5.5 tonne. It has cruise control fitted and I am using it 98% of the time. Fuel consumption is 15.25 l/100 in 5th gear and in 6th gear 16.5l/100. The only concern currently is a grinding in the transfer on the “float”, (it is 35 degree’s here and this only happens when in use for around one hour) no other noises when on overrun and or power on. It is the only vehicle I have seen so far towing a big van on this trip and of course is looked down upon by 200 diesel V8’s drivers, Most tugs on the trip seem to be Narvara, Ranger, BT50’s and Nissan. I am not sure the reason for not a lot of 200 series on the road, may be the cost, mine was about $50.000 fitted up for the trip.

Further to the above, the vehicle has had a BAS remap and I am still on the road vehicle now has 50,000k on it and to date is still towing the Jayco 21 footer ok. Today had the first concern going up the mountains outside of Nimbin the vehicle went to limp mode for about 30 secs, was pulling the van up a 30-1 slope for about 30-35 mins in low range and it got pretty warm, the first issue to date touch wood. I will be home for Xmas and then off to Albany and further. The previous posts did not get any comments which I found odd, however I do work it pretty hard and will continue to do so. I am averaging 13 l/100 k’s constantly irrespective of speed.

[Leroy_Riding]

I once blindly and naively thought the same. Good luck with that.

thanks for the deep and insightful post, care to elaborate?

if the can says peas and inside contains corn, you are entitles to your money back.

if the car says 3.5ton towing and wont tow 3.5 ton. . . same thing. ill tow 3.5ton until my warranty runs out, after that. . well that's a different story. but if towing 3.5 tons causes issues LR have to repair rectify issues caused from a use that the advertise it does.

not sure on the legalities but ive seen many cases outside of a warranty period where issues caused by using something for a described purpose has caused issues and the manufacturer forced to reconcile the issue.

if towing 3.5ton for 3 years of warranty then 3 years later again its found that the heavy towing was the cause of a failure then its LR's responsibility to resolve this.

(I reserve the right to be 100% incorrect :D)

Mr Naive

[uninformed]

If 5th gear is direct drive (i.e. 1-1 through the main shaft) dropping back into it every now and then will help with 6th gear.

Im not sure what LR spec the oil change intervals for the MT82, but I have the feeling it is something outrageous. IMO 20k would be the max Id push the changes out to even running full synthetic. (This is what I do on my Tdi 110)

I have heard that later LT230s may be having some issues and this may be put down to inferior materials or finishing of gears??? Do not take that as gospel.

Both the gearbox and t/case do not have large oil capacities. That is something to consider all so.

[uninformed]

thanks for the deep and insightful post, care to elaborate?

if the can says peas and inside contains corn, you are entitles to your money back.

if the car says 3.5ton towing and wont tow 3.5 ton. . . same thing. ill tow 3.5ton until my warranty runs out, after that. . well that's a different story. but if towing 3.5 tons causes issues LR have to repair rectify issues caused from a use that the advertise it does.

not sure on the legalities but ive seen many cases outside of a warranty period where issues caused by using something for a described purpose has caused issues and the manufacturer forced to reconcile the issue.

if towing 3.5ton for 3 years of warranty then 3 years later again its found that the heavy towing was the cause of a failure then its LR's responsibility to resolve this.

(I reserve the right to be 100% incorrect :D)

Mr Naive

nope, and given your reply, ill now shout it. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

[Leroy_Riding]

nope, and given your reply, ill now shout it. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

again, not really helpful.

What part of the system is going to fail first? (my money is on the diff failing first tbh) And would it not be coverd under warranty?
Is it not essentially the same thing as driving a car at full advertised GVM as far as warranty is concerned?
I understand more load = more wear and more stress on the vehicle. that part is easy to understand. Should not a vehicle that is said to be able to carry 'X' load or tow 'X' load be able to do so without causing issues? if not, is that not false advertising? or something that should be covered by warranty if an issue is caused by it?

Leroy
(genuine questions btw)

[Summiitt]

I tow heavy trailers for my business, I agree, I expect the defenders to be able and capable of towing 3.5 tons day in day out, regardless of outside conditions, that's why I buy them..thus far my 130 td5 and pumas have done so, yes they are underpowered, but the chassis and driveline are built for it, and are good for it, its not uncommon for my 130 puma to have GCM of 7-7500kg a couple of times a week, and I intend to operate it like that until it breaks...I don't think it will.. As for gearbox temps, my trucks in summer, grossing. 48ton will run at around 120degrees, you can feel the heat in the cab, but that's all part and parcel with pulling a decent load and working things hard... Nothing to worry about in your defender...enjoy your trip

[Cracka]

Interesting topic for me at the moment. We tow a Tvan and like to keep to around 95kmh when in traffic and then drop back to say 90kmh once the traffic drops off a bit.This means we are mainly travelling in 5th gear somewhere between 2100rpm to 2500rpm, this seems ok to me but am interested in what others may do.
Area around handbrake and floor area certainly gets warm, but post trip check of oils indicates all is working as it should.
Rob.

I also tow a newly acquired Tvan. Did a road trip a couple of months ago did 2855kms towing the Tvan I always use 6th gear unless the terrain requires otherwise. Averaged 12.08litres/100km.:D

[uninformed]

I tow heavy trailers for my business, I agree, I expect the defenders to be able and capable of towing 3.5 tons day in day out, regardless of outside conditions, that's why I buy them..thus far my 130 td5 and pumas have done so, yes they are underpowered, but the chassis and driveline are built for it, and are good for it, its not uncommon for my 130 puma to have GCM of 7-7500kg a couple of times a week, and I intend to operate it like that until it breaks...I don't think it will.. As for gearbox temps, my trucks in summer, grossing. 48ton will run at around 120degrees, you can feel the heat in the cab, but that's all part and parcel with pulling a decent load and working things hard... Nothing to worry about in your defender...enjoy your trip

Do you think your prime movers gearbox and the LR gearboxes are built to the same standards? Im not talking the same size and torque rating either…

BTW I have done my fair share of towing behind a LR

[Jeff]

again, not really helpful.

What part of the system is going to fail first? (my money is on the diff failing first tbh) And would it not be coverd under warranty?
Is it not essentially the same thing as driving a car at full advertised GVM as far as warranty is concerned?
I understand more load = more wear and more stress on the vehicle. that part is easy to understand. Should not a vehicle that is said to be able to carry 'X' load or tow 'X' load be able to do so without causing issues? if not, is that not false advertising? or something that should be covered by warranty if an issue is caused by it?

Leroy
(genuine questions btw)

Remember, many people keep their Land Rovers well past their warranty period. If you intend to keep it for ten years or more then look after it now, if you don't, well no need to worry. I had to rebuild the gearbox of my Defender after 13 years and 312,000 km of towing heavy trailers. The bearings on 5th were starting to grumble, but as it was apart, the whole box was rebuilt.

Jeff

:rocket:

[n plus one]

I'll say it one more time, strongly consider decreasing your g/box and t/case oil change intervals if you're towing heavy loads in high temps - particularly the t/case, which carries less oil in a Puma than for previous engine configurations.

Other than that, give it a flogging :p

[uninformed]

Remember, many people keep their Land Rovers well past their warranty period. If you intend to keep it for ten years or more then look after it now, if you don't, well no need to worry. I had to rebuild the gearbox of my Defender after 13 years and 312,000 km of towing heavy trailers. The bearings on 5th were starting to grumble, but as it was apart, the whole box was rebuilt.

Jeff

:rocket:

312,000 total or just Towing? either way that is a pretty good run from a R380 given that some here haven't lasted 100-150k before the lay shaft bearings crap themselves. I have just started to strip down for rebuild a late model R380 with only 90K on it. The rear lay shaft bearing had a collapsed cage and the inner track has signs or brinelling/pitting.

[Leroy_Riding]

Remember, many people keep their Land Rovers well past their warranty period. If you intend to keep it for ten years or more then look after it now, if you don't, well no need to worry. I had to rebuild the gearbox of my Defender after 13 years and 312,000 km of towing heavy trailers. The bearings on 5th were starting to grumble, but as it was apart, the whole box was rebuilt.

Jeff

:rocket:

see I wouldn't dream of getting 300K out of my gearbox 200K before a rebuild maybe, 300K in my opinion is time for a full engine rebuild. (albeit this is my first diesel)

thats just my opinion. and I don't have the experience many of you have, but if my gearbox makes it to 200K and my engine to 300K at least before needing rebuilds I will be a happy man :)

Leroy

[uninformed]

see I wouldn't dream of getting 300K out of my gearbox 200K before a rebuild maybe, 300K in my opinion is time for a full engine rebuild. (albeit this is my first diesel)

thats just my opinion. and I don't have the experience many of you have, but if my gearbox makes it to 200K and my engine to 300K at least before needing rebuilds I will be a happy man :)

Leroy

wow, seems almost at conflick with your other replies. Probably best you stay out of the Isuzu section ;)

[beefy]

my disco two has 420k on it and the gearbox is as it left the factory. new clutch and flywheel but everything else is fine. I changed the oil every 20k and put only the castrol oils that LR recommend which is not cheap but I recon the key to it's long life. I towed in 5th gear all the time.

[uninformed]

my disco two has 420k on it and the gearbox is as it left the factory. new clutch and flywheel but everything else is fine. I changed the oil every 20k and put only the castrol oils that LR recommend which is not cheap but I recon the key to it's long life. I towed in 5th gear all the time.

Thats excellent for the R380! The Td5 being LRs better designed engine (bit early to tell with the Tdci?)

Do you know if the D2 has an oil cooler fitted as standard?

[nedflanders]

Just fitted a bigger sump to the t-box and as it's a UK car I'll be fitting the gearbox cooler soon, got the thermostatic valve block but need to decide type and location of cooler, might even look at a mini radiator type with fan. My gearbox regularly hits the hi 80's when towing which is why I need to try and bring the temp down.

[jimr1]

Thats excellent for the R380! The Td5 being LRs better designed engine (bit early to tell with the Tdci?)

Do you know if the D2 has an oil cooler fitted as standard?
I had a td5 disco 2 that had a factory oil cooler , but It was an Auto , Not sure about the manuals !!..

[RobnJane]

Interesting comments here, and as I am new to the LR scene I'm not familiar with the component model nos etc, so don't know whether someones experience with a manual box in a Disco is relevent to my query, I think not.

Our car is a MY 2009 110, and I am certainly aware that it will tow our camper on highway in 6th gear, however I am concerned that as this is an overdrive gear then there will be excessive heat build up in the transmission due to the overdrive gear and the extra load that must add. Engine speed and performance is only part of the discussion, driveline gearing, and other external factors should also be considered.

To help my understanding can anyone advise what the gear ratios are for 4th, 5th and 6th, this will help me in my gear selection at various times.

I also increase oil change frequency to accomodate towing and the hard work we subject the car to in our travels etc etc.

Thanks to the OP for asking the original question and all who have commented.

Rgds,

Rob

[Drover]

Hey Rob,

If your using light throttle to achieve 6th gear then go for it.
My SVX (2008) has done lots of towing. From Coromal (2ton) off road Pioneer and the latest a UEV440(1.3ton).

It pulls 6th gear most of the time, but once the revs fall below 2000 without pinning it to the floor, I knock it back a gear and follow the same rule.

Cheers

[Samblers]

What is required is evidence of a failure caused by high temps due to excessive load from towing.

It sounds like people are trying to solve a problem that might not exist? How much heat is 'excessive'? Excessive for who?

Yes the heat might cause driver/passenger discomfort, but is the car complaining?

[Summiitt]

What is required is evidence of a failure caused by high temps due to excessive load from towing.

It sounds like people are trying to solve a problem that might not exist? How much heat is 'excessive'? Excessive for who?

Yes the heat might cause driver/passenger discomfort, but is the car complaining?

Personally, I think a lot of people 'pussyfoot' around defender drivelines, thinking they are a weak link after reading and talking to people who think they know better. Truth is they are a bloody tough piece of kit, I've busted 3 land cruiser 78 diffs, yet to have any issues with the defenders I run... They have their issues, but on the whole they are pretty robust.

[n plus one]

Personally, I think a lot of people 'pussyfoot' around defender drivelines, thinking they are a weak link after reading and talking to people who think they know better. Truth is they are a bloody tough piece of kit, I've busted 3 land cruiser 78 diffs, yet to have any issues with the defenders I run... They have their issues, but on the whole they are pretty robust.

Meh, Cruiser front diffs are made of cheese :D

Agree they're not as soft as the Internet suggests- i trust mine under hard use. But having said that, they're not bullet proof either - I trashed my front diff and had a t/case replaced in my 09.

[Samblers]

through towing?

[Cobber]

This thread has come at the right time as I'll be doing a bit of towing in the not too distant future. It's given me something to think about :BigThumb:

[c.h.i.e.f]

Bound to snap an axle or cv though :D
As per the original post I can relate to your issues as I travel the New England a few times a week and find the floor does get very hot and sometimes to the stage that the handbrake is untouchable due to the heat...as for towing I do not trust 6th under high loads I did notice that towing the same weight compared to that weight on the tray I loose at least 1 gear and 30km/h over the range...I have a mate that lives out west and travels back to vic a few times a week during harvest towing a comb trailer weighing between 5-7T here and there with his chipped td5 130 it has just over 500k on the clock and on its 5th transfer but original r380 with no problems except the head getting replaced recently..

[uninformed]

Bound to snap an axle or cv though :D
As per the original post I can relate to your issues as I travel the New England a few times a week and find the floor does get very hot and sometimes to the stage that the handbrake is untouchable due to the heat...as for towing I do not trust 6th under high loads I did notice that towing the same weight compared to that weight on the tray I loose at least 1 gear and 30km/h over the range...I have a mate that lives out west and travels back to vic a few times a week during harvest towing a comb trailer weighing between 5-7T here and there with his chipped td5 130 it has just over 500k on the clock and on its 5th transfer but original r380 with no problems except the head getting replaced recently..

Aerodynamics plays a large roll. For example, my trailer is only 2t but the frontal area of it is 4.2m behind the back of my truck cab. Its like having to punch both truck and trailer through the air separately.

5 transfer cases :confused:, something is not right there… does he at least have the extended sump fitted?

[c.h.i.e.f]

Aerodynamics plays a large roll. For example, my trailer is only 2t but the frontal area of it is 4.2m behind the back of my truck cab. Its like having to punch both truck and trailer through the air separately.

5 transfer cases :confused:, something is not right there… does he at least have the extended sump fitted?

That's all I could put it down to is the frontal area...interesting to watch the wind passing over the vehicle in dusty roads and watching where the streamline (or what ever you call it lol) comes back down towards the rear of the car...yeah strange about the transfers I'm not to sure about what his done to it though I know when it was new it got replaced under warranty a few times and now the 1 that's in there is fine he recons...

[n plus one]

through towing?

Assume your asking me?

If so, front diff definitely not, may have been a factor in the t/case - which was a warranty replacement for a couple of reasons (first and foremost of which is tgat I'm picky).

Wasn't too impressed with the state of the oil that came out of the t/case at the standard service I must say - mine now gets done every 20k.

[Graeme]

I had a td5 disco 2 that had a factory oil cooler , but It was an Auto , Not sure about the manuals !!..Oz manuals also had the cooler. TD5 autos and V8s had a TC temp sensor fitted but not TD5 manuals but as the wires were there mine got a sensor.

[chally]

Thanks to all for your responses to my original post on Defender towing. Looks like the heat in the cab is pretty normal when towing but I will probably consider more frequent oil changes for the gearbox and transfer case when I hit the road as preventative maintenance.