Complicated ropes and knots

[joel0407]

I am currently installing a winch on my Disco. I am installing it with a equalizing chain between the 2 tow points (2T WLL eye bolts). The winch will be permanently "D" shackled to the chain and I intend to always use a snatch block to double the pull strength and ease the load on the winch and hopefully lengthen it's life.

By using the snatch block I will shorten the usable length of the winch rope from 30m to 15m which I think will be pretty useless. So I want to get/make a winch extension rope.

Now I have been know to be a bit cheap but I refuse to pay extra for something simple. I figure a 8t rated winch extension strap is 8t weather I pay $200 or $50. The amount of money I pay for it wont make it stronger.

Now the cheapest winch extension strap I have found is Tiger11 for $29.

But I have found an alternative. Nobles sell Superdan rope. 24mm Superdan rope is rated at 9,9000kg and is only $1.50/Mtr. The down side is I need to buy a roll of over 200m. This is one option as I could easily sell off what I don't need on eBay.

Another option is. I was a Telstra Subie years ago and I still have a couple of 400m roles of 6mm Teltra/Paramata rope (you all know the stuff). It has a breaking strain of 5.9kn. I have been doing some reading and I found how the line is layer together effects it's strength as the strands bind to each other. The hard the pull the tighter the strands hold together.

Now the most basic thing I could do is carry 300m of Paramata rope and just run 10 lengths back and forward to make 10 times the strength but handling 300m of rope is messy and by plaiting or braiding with add strength and I could make the strength with far less strands. So this is defiantly the way to go.

Now the problem it how to splice a loop on the end.

This is not good reading while drinking. Just saying.

Happy Days.

[Barefoot Dave]

G'day Joel.
Good to see someone thinking outside the box AND asking safety questions.
You might have something there.
The easiest way is run it between 2 short poles/ fence posts then slide one end up at a time and tie a Figure 8 into either end.

Bear in mind a couple of things；
Software (ropes, harnesses etc) have a life of 4-5 years depending on the manufacturer. After that they start to degrade and weaken. How long is 'a few years ago' ?

Tying knots weakens the rope by approx 30%.

Don't join the straps metal work, use a rolled up magazine of floor mat in the join to aid untieing and give it a go in controlled situation ( noone nearby).

[joel0407]

The last thing I was reading before bed was about knot effiency. Knots are usually the weakest point. I'm not just talking about joining knots were 2 pieces of rope are tied together but the knot where the rope terminated.

I'm currently thinking of doing a 4 strand, round braid but I'm struggling to find a loop splice fit 4 strand braid as I said a terminating knot is likely to be a weak point.


Braid should be stronger than twist and 3 strand twist of the same material as parramatta rope in 24mm provides a breaking strain around 10,000kg. I just don't know what the effect of braiding 4 x 3 strand twist will be? I'm thinking stronger but I really don't know.


Happy days.

[Chops]

Times money,, etc, etc, etc,,,

Wouldn't it just be cheaper and less hassle if you just spent $30 on the extension strap?

Having said that, I know how gratifying it can be doing this type of stuff yourself ;)
There was a thread on here that had a link to knots and stuff which could be very helpful to you, but it may just be for tying off stuff,, fishing and truck knots maybe (?).

[benji]

A properly done splice will not lower the strength of the rope. Surely the answer is out there, as there's methods to splice kern-mantle rope.

The weak point of your setup will be where it loops over at the end as the outer braids take more strain. Splicing deals with with that a lot better than a figure 8 knot (which is about the most structurally strong knot there is), but you can't splice whilst under tension which is why a largish eye would be a good idea.

Personally I'd spend the $30; but it's an interesting exercise.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[Blknight.aus]

An eye splice has a load factor of .9 from memory.

Any knot is .7

Via the modern day equivalent to smoke signals fromsome place other than the cave where my hat hangs.

[Ovadahill]

Funnily enough I was at a nobles yesterday trying to do the same thing but with silver or blue rope. Was told a few months ago they could set up a tow/winch extension rope cheaper than buying a strap from a 4x4 store. Turns out they were wrong. But while checking other options through their catalogue they had winch ext straps (non elastic) and tow straps (elastic) similar to a snatch strap except not rated as high..
I thought you shouldn't use a snatch strap to tow because of the stretch factor or it ruins the elasticity of the strap making it useless foe any further snatching tasks. Am I mistaken? Apologies if a little off topic.
I've since decided to purchase the appropriate strap rather than mucking around with ropes as it is cheaper and also rated as recovery gear.
Sent from my GT-I9305 using AULRO mobile app

[joel0407]

Funnily enough I was at a nobles yesterday trying to do the same thing but with silver or blue rope. Was told a few months ago they could set up a tow/winch extension rope cheaper than buying a strap from a 4x4 store. Turns out they were wrong. But while checking other options through their catalogue they had winch ext straps (non elastic) and tow straps (elastic) similar to a snatch strap except not rated as high..
I thought you shouldn't use a snatch strap to tow because of the stretch factor or it ruins the elasticity of the strap making it useless foe any further snatching tasks. Am I mistaken? Apologies if a little off topic.
I've since decided to purchase the appropriate strap rather than mucking around with ropes as it is cheaper and also rated as recovery gear.
Sent from my GT-I9305 using AULRO mobile app

How did you workout it was more expensive to setup a tow/winch extension than buying a strap from a 4x4 store?

They quoted me $1.50 per meter for 24mm Super Dan. The only thing is they usually only sell it in 200m+ rolls. I thought I could sell off the extra but they said they can contact the whole seller in the new year and they may well be able to order it by the length but it will likely cost more.

Happy Days.

[bob10]

Some instructions here, safety notice here



WARNING



Only qualified personnel should perform this splice.
If a splice begins to slip while in use, discontinue use of rope.
When spliced correctly, this product meets the static strength requirements of BSEN 1891 with termination.


Splicing Guide - Kernmantle Braided Safety Blue & HiVee Eye Splice (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamestowndistributors.com%2Fu serportal%2Fdocument.do%3FdocId%3D928&ei=xpizUpyAJIuykgXXiIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNEu4v1oakKgv7JQtUob0HEU14ijgA)

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Note: Prior to beginning splice, slide a 5 inch piece of clear shrink tube over end and down the body of the rope. We will need this shrink tube in a later step

[joel0407]

Some instructions here, safety notice here



WARNING



Only qualified personnel should perform this splice.
If a splice begins to slip while in use, discontinue use of rope.
When spliced correctly, this product meets the static strength requirements of BSEN 1891 with termination.


Splicing Guide - Kernmantle Braided Safety Blue & HiVee Eye Splice (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jamestowndistributors.com%2Fu serportal%2Fdocument.do%3FdocId%3D928&ei=xpizUpyAJIuykgXXiIGYAw&usg=AFQjCNEu4v1oakKgv7JQtUob0HEU14ijgA)

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Note: Prior to beginning splice, slide a 5 inch piece of clear shrink tube over end and down the body of the rope. We will need this shrink tube in a later step

Thanks Bob,

Nothing on 4 strand again though.

Happy Days.

[Ean Austral]

We trialled some Super dan rope whilst I was fishing, and think Super **** may be more appropriate for what we were using it for.

Might be ok for what you want, but buying 200+ mtrs than trying to sell off the excess will cost you more in the end in my experience.

Cheers Ean

[Ovadahill]

How did you workout it was more expensive to setup a tow/winch extension than buying a strap from a 4x4 store?

They quoted me $1.50 per meter for 24mm Super Dan. The only thing is they usually only sell it in 200m+ rolls. I thought I could sell off the extra but they said they can contact the whole seller in the new year and they may well be able to order it by the length but it will likely cost more.

Happy Days.

Just what the guy behind the counter told me. I never got a price off them as I wasn't ready to purchase at the time.

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[joel0407]

We trialled some Super dan rope whilst I was fishing, and think Super **** may be more appropriate for what we were using it for.

Might be ok for what you want, but buying 200+ mtrs than trying to sell off the excess will cost you more in the end in my experience.

Cheers Ean

What diameter was it? Why did you think it was *****?

Happy Days

[phill 130]

[QUOTE=joel0407;2049651]I am currently installing a winch on my Disco. I am installing it with a equalizing chain between the 2 tow points (2T WLL eye bolts). The winch will be permanently "D" shackled to the chain and I intend to always use a snatch block to double the pull strength and ease the load on the winch and hopefully lengthen it's life.


Hi Joel0407

I don't want to tell you how to suck eggs or anything but this bit is a little concerning to me at least.
Just thought I'd mention that if your seperation angle is 45 degrees or over you would be putting load multiplication on your anchor points, i.e.the two tow points. This can be increased to double the load your pulling on each point and would render your snatch block a waste of time = scary:o
Could you put up a pic of the attachment of the winch idea you have?

An idea I had once was to try a 38mm fire hose as an extension strap, as someone mentioned a figure 8 would be pretty reasonable for strength and doubled up would be a bit easier to untie but good luck trying after it's been under big load.
How long do you want your winch to last?
Maintenance will keep em goin for a while.

[Ean Austral]

What diameter was it? Why did you think it was *****?

Happy Days

We tried it about 8 yrs ago, and its coated in a plastic (for use of a simple word) If the plastic wears off it the rope is basically lost its strengh, its really bad if you are using it on a capstan or sorts.

We used it on our trawl nets and because it used to contact the seafloor the coating would wear off and the rope would break not long after that.

We used 24mm , 28mm , and 32mm all suffered the same fate.

As I said it may be OK for what you want to use it for as it wont wear in any particular spot.

No matter what rope you use, once you start to jerk that rope it puts more strain on it than just a constant load... I will give you a first hand example,
We tied a trawler to the wharf with 16mm rope, we had 3 ropes, we are talking a 600hp boat designed for pulling not speed, we took the tension up with no jerks on the rope, and gradually increased to full power and those 3 ropes held the boat no problems. We tied the same boat up with 3 x 32mm ropes, let them slack and planted the throttle, and BANG, BANG BANG went all 3.

Cheers Ean

[joel0407]

We tried it about 8 yrs ago, and its coated in a plastic (for use of a simple word) If the plastic wears off it the rope is basically lost its strengh, its really bad if you are using it on a capstan or sorts.

We used it on our trawl nets and because it used to contact the seafloor the coating would wear off and the rope would break not long after that.

We used 24mm , 28mm , and 32mm all suffered the same fate.

As I said it may be OK for what you want to use it for as it wont wear in any particular spot.

No matter what rope you use, once you start to jerk that rope it puts more strain on it than just a constant load... I will give you a first hand example,
We tied a trawler to the wharf with 16mm rope, we had 3 ropes, we are talking a 600hp boat designed for pulling not speed, we took the tension up with no jerks on the rope, and gradually increased to full power and those 3 ropes held the boat no problems. We tied the same boat up with 3 x 32mm ropes, let them slack and planted the throttle, and BANG, BANG BANG went all 3.

Cheers Ean

The Super Dan is the green poly propylene rope. Apparently Super Dan is just the name given by this manufacturer. It's not plastic coated but constructed with plastic fibres.

I know exactly what you mean about the gradual application of weight as I have seen Paramatta rope take over 2,000kg without breaking. The capstan winches used for hauling fibre optic cable have to have calibrated gauges to show the force being applied to the cable. Everyone stands well clear of Paramatta rope with 2,000kg of it. It stretches pretty well and goes off like a gun when it breaks.

I've been shopping around here in Darwin. Nautical supplies only have the silver rope (looks white to me), its more expensive and not as strong. Ship supplies have full roles only. Jeyco just wanted to sell my a Dyneama equivalent for $200 and told me the Super Dan would be dangerous because of it's stretch. I thought it was funny because that's exactly what snatch straps do.

I'm currently just working on a way to splice a loop in a rope braided with 4 strands of Paramatta rope.

Happy Days.

Happy Days.

[Ean Austral]

The Super Dan is the green poly propylene rope. Apparently Super Dan is just the name given by this manufacturer. It's not plastic coated but constructed with plastic fibres.

I know exactly what you mean about the gradual application of weight as I have seen Paramatta rope take over 2,000kg without breaking. The capstan winches used for hauling fibre optic cable have to have calibrated gauges to show the force being applied to the cable. Everyone stands well clear of Paramatta rope with 2,000kg of it. It stretches pretty well and goes off like a gun when it breaks.

I've been shopping around here in Darwin. Nautical supplies only have the silver rope (looks white to me), its more expensive and not as strong. Ship supplies have full roles only. Jeyco just wanted to sell my a Dyneama equivalent for $200 and told me the Super Dan would be dangerous because of it's stretch. I thought it was funny because that's exactly what snatch straps do.

I'm currently just working on a way to splice a loop in a rope braided with 4 strands of Paramatta rope.

Happy Days.

Happy Days.

Yep that's the same superdan, it also comes in brown, there are about a dozen versions of that type of rope but same thing as soon as the plastic wears or burns on a capstan it weakens dramatically .

So you are looking at braiding 4 lengths of rope together is that correct? 3 strands per rope so 12 strands spliced back into itself correct.? Why not just tuck it, surely it will bite enough if you do 3 or more tucks.

What about 28 or 32 silver rope, surely would have enough of a breaking strain. Guess it comes down to $$$.

Cheers Ean

[joel0407]

Yep that's the same superdan, it also comes in brown, there are about a dozen versions of that type of rope but same thing as soon as the plastic wears or burns on a capstan it weakens dramatically .

So you are looking at braiding 4 lengths of rope together is that correct? 3 strands per rope so 12 strands spliced back into itself correct.? Why not just tuck it, surely it will bite enough if you do 3 or more tucks.

What about 28 or 32 silver rope, surely would have enough of a breaking strain. Guess it comes down to $$$.

Cheers Ean

I've thought about tucking. Maybe that would be fine if I use a metal eye. I think if I just do a rope eye the weak point will be as it turns on the bow shackle. 6mm strands are pretty big and I think the strands might compress on each other and effectively cutting each other. It might not be so bad with a larger radius metal eye.

Happy Days.

[Ean Austral]

I've thought about tucking. Maybe that would be fine if I use a metal eye. I think if I just do a rope eye the weak point will be as it turns on the bow shackle. 6mm strands are pretty big and I think the strands might compress on each other and effectively cutting each other. It might not be so bad with a larger radius metal eye.

Happy Days.


Metal thimble eyes will be a good start , especially with a shackle as a joiner , I think if you tuck back thru itself it should be ok, just when you tuck just feed it thru on opposite directions...ie first tuck 3-9 oclock , next 12-6 oclock then back to 3-9 oclock minimum of 3 tucks and it will bite good enough.


Sometimes on the trawlers we would do lazy splices in our wires instead of splicing them properly, and would tuck back thru the wire as I said above, never had 1 let go.


Cheers Ean

[joel0407]

Metal thimble eyes will be a good start , especially with a shackle as a joiner , I think if you tuck back thru itself it should be ok, just when you tuck just feed it thru on opposite directions...ie first tuck 3-9 oclock , next 12-6 oclock then back to 3-9 oclock minimum of 3 tucks and it will bite good enough.


Sometimes on the trawlers we would do lazy splices in our wires instead of splicing them properly, and would tuck back thru the wire as I said above, never had 1 let go.


Cheers Ean

Cool, Thanks mate.

I'll give it a go next week. Working the weekend.

Happy Days.