Auto Transmission for Puma

[Babs]

Does anyone no of a solution to converting a 2.2 Puma to automatic.

I am so sick of stick, my previous vehicle the Hilux was my first auto and I swore I would never go back to stick. Did not have much choice with Defender though. I am regretting it now, and am thinking about a shiny new Patrol (just thinking).

Anyways if I was to change vehicles I would only buy new again and there would be a cash factor I would have to consider putting in, well why not spend it on an auto for the Deefer instead, if there is an option.

Davies Performance Landies says there is, I think the Transit auto (assuming) but he says you will lose a lot of power and it makes them dogs to drive?????

Any thoughts Guys? I would love to know if there is a solution to this. Has it been done yet?

Thanks in advance,

Babs.

Merry Christmas :D

[TimNZ]

Your best bet is Ashcrofts:

TDCi Defender Auto Kit - Ashcroft Transmissions - (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/defender-auto-conversion-kits/tdci-defender-auto-kit.html)

You'll have to part with a few dollars though!

[Babs]

Your best bet is Ashcrofts:

TDCi Defender Auto Kit - Ashcroft Transmissions - (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/defender-auto-conversion-kits/tdci-defender-auto-kit.html)

You'll have to part with a few dollars though!

You don't realise how excited you have made me :banana::banana::banana:[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Thank You.

I have sent the link to Davis Performance Landies, i'll get him to do the research for me, i'll be buggered with tech stuff.

[pannawonica]

I would not worry one bit about power loss, you can easily tune the Puma auto too out perform any standard manual. Alive tuning or Bell auto UK will give you a specific tune for a automatic gearbox.:D

[Chops]

Bab's, I know this is important to you an all,,, I get it from all directions,,, but can you ensure my partner doesn't see this please :o ;)
I cant afford it, but more importantly,,, I like my stick shift :D Cause she cant drive it ;):cool:

So why is it that they don't come out in an auto anyway. You would think that with the motor coming out of a Transit, it would have been an easy option. Calibrating the trans to suit the car, and its purpose, shouldn't really be that hard to do, although gearing may have to be changed somewhat.

[Slunnie]

So why is it that they don't come out in an auto anyway. You would think that with the motor coming out of a Transit, it would have been an easy option. Calibrating the trans to suit the car, and its purpose, shouldn't really be that hard to do, although gearing may have to be changed somewhat.
Probably the same reason that they never moved the handbrake, something that can also be done with existing factory parts quite easily.

[pibby]

babs - ask davis their thoughts about using a heavy duty torque converter like this one from ashcrofts.

Td5 Heavy Duty Torque Converter - Ashcroft Transmissions - (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/miscellaneous/torque-converters/td5-heavy-duty-torque-converter.html)

makes it much more enjoyable to drive, you get to transfer the low down torque to the wheels instead of listening to your motor revving away. i've got a puma transfer case in my td5 110.

infact my fuel useage is 10.5l/100km around town (no guesswork, actual fuel to actual km over 20,000km) and i put that down to the torque converter. could be wrong, sure aint no mechanic.

brett.

[chuck]

If you log on to Ashcroft's site there are some reviews of their defender auto conversions.

They reviews are very positive & say that the auto conversion with the included remap makes the defended far better to drive & go on to say that is how Landrover should have offered them.

Cheers

[jimr1]

I'm sure there was an article about the Ashcrofts Auto conversion in the LRO mag a few years ago . They put a lot of work into It , plus they could supply a centre conceal , as the gearbox was further back . Let us know how you go , price ect.:)

[Babs]

Rang twice today no answer, looks like there already on holidays. I'll text Bruce tomorrow to find out when they are back on board. I'll keep you all posted.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[dullbird]

Yes please do as something I have always wanted is an auto defender

[Babs]

Ok. I have had a chat to Davies Performance Landies and have been talk out of the Ashcroft Auto conversion. The reason apparently the conversion leaves you with a loss of power, and overheating when towing. It's apparently the 300tdi disco 4 speed auto.

Then I had a phone call back today from Wholesale Automatics in Melbourne and he's spoken with Ascroft and will bring in the adapters, get a local box and rebuild it (so new box) and they are already a Compushift dealer. He has quoted me 14K drive away with warranty.

He has a different opinion to DPL and does not think it will overheat, as you can change the settings with the Compushift to suit the type of driving you do. As far as a loss of power he says it is minimal "barely noticeable" were his words. He said around 5% or less power loss but an increase in torque with the lock up torque converter. He seems to think it will be a good thing.

The question is, will the old TDi box be a good reliable auto conversion. I need to speak with people who have already had this conversion done. I'm thinking UK forums, does anyone have any suggestions?

Any 300 TDi auto Disco owners that could comment, it would be appreciated.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[isuzutoo-eh]

There's a tdi 110 ute at LVS at the moment with an auto, and redneck.woman91 (Steph) on this forum has a tdi auto 110 ute.

[Iain_B]

DPL got it wrong it they think the box is from a 300Tdi Discovery, as they are a purely mechanical box, no need for a Compushift.

I have a Discovery Tdi and fitted an auto box to it, no problems in over 100,000km of driving. Main problem was a turbo "upgrade" that only gets boost over 2200rpm, problem being the torque converter doesn't let it get to 2200rpm so easy as it stalls around 2000rpm

When I did a gearbox change in my Jaguar XJ-S from a GM400 to a 4L80E, I had the torque convertor changed to a "high stall" - around 2400rpm. I would do a similar thing on the box, and programme the lock up to come in earlier. I used a PCS controller rather than Compushift, it is much more programmable.

The ZF box must be out of a TD5 or a Range Rover, and they seem to be OK with a fair bit of power.

[Babs]

Ah I could be wrong there, DPL just said it was the old Disco box and he didn't seem to impressed. The box is the Discovery D2 and Rangie P38 auto.

Are these good box's

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

There's a tdi 110 ute at LVS at the moment with an auto, and redneck.woman91 (Steph) on this forum has a tdi auto 110 ute.

Mark, is the TDi a 300 ?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[isuzutoo-eh]

Steph's is a 300tdi and a DPL conversion, not sure about the one at LVS.
I drove Steph's 110 around Mt Walker and back to Sydney via Bell's Line of Road, quicker up the hills than my naturally aspirated County! I don't have any experience beyond those two drives.
The 110 at LVS has the shifter where the centre console should be. Steph's shifter is on the transmission tunnel.

[Bush65]

Wholesale Automatics have a good reputation and their conversions for Toyota transmissions are favoured in the USA (but they complain about the pricing).

From memory, the ZF22 from a Tdi disco can be beefed up with extra clutch plates, etc. However the torque convertor size is limited by the available space in the bell housing, it has the advantage $$$$wise in not being electronic controlled. If going to this trouble, I would think twice before using the 300Tdi auto in a heavier and more powerful Defender.

IIRC the torque convertor size issue is one important reason why Ashcroft use the stronger ZF24 from a rangie. Unfortunately being electronic controlled you would need to add the very expensive compushift.

Some people in this thread are indicating the Disco II has the same transmission as the rangie, but IIRC it is simply an electronic controlled version of the smaller ZF22, not 24 as used in rangies.

This should be on the Ashcroft website, but you may need to dig down a bit to find all. If Ashcroft contradict my ramblings, then be guided by them.

[VladTepes]

So why is it that they don't come out in an auto anyway.

Because it would impact on Disco sales as it would come in cheaper.

Because they already sell all the Defenders they build, and probably can't be bothered building more.....

[voltron]

There are some 3.2 litre ranger wrecks popping up on the inter web. Engine and auto in one hit would be nice.

One can only dream.:cool:

[Steve Td5 130]

Hi Babs

Ritters in Melbourne can also do the Ashcroft conversion for about the same price.

It is better to go with the compushift because the auto conversion with the manual kick down will make the defender gutless.

Cheers

Steve




Ok. I have had a chat to Davies Performance Landies and have been talk out of the Ashcroft Auto conversion. The reason apparently the conversion leaves you with a loss of power, and overheating when towing. It's apparently the 300tdi disco 4 speed auto.

Then I had a phone call back today from Wholesale Automatics in Melbourne and he's spoken with Ascroft and will bring in the adapters, get a local box and rebuild it (so new box) and they are already a Compushift dealer. He has quoted me 14K drive away with warranty.

He has a different opinion to DPL and does not think it will overheat, as you can change the settings with the Compushift to suit the type of driving you do. As far as a loss of power he says it is minimal "barely noticeable" were his words. He said around 5% or less power loss but an increase in torque with the lock up torque converter. He seems to think it will be a good thing.

The question is, will the old TDi box be a good reliable auto conversion. I need to speak with people who have already had this conversion done. I'm thinking UK forums, does anyone have any suggestions?

Any 300 TDi auto Disco owners that could comment, it would be appreciated.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Hi Babs Ritters in Melbourne can also do the Ashcroft conversion for about the same price. It is better to go with the compushift because the auto conversion with the manual kick down will make the defender gutless. Cheers Steve

Cheers.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ashtrans]

Wholesale Automatics have a good reputation and their conversions for Toyota transmissions are favoured in the USA (but they complain about the pricing).

From memory, the ZF22 from a Tdi disco can be beefed up with extra clutch plates, etc. However the torque convertor size is limited by the available space in the bell housing, it has the advantage $$$$wise in not being electronic controlled. If going to this trouble, I would think twice before using the 300Tdi auto in a heavier and more powerful Defender.

IIRC the torque convertor size issue is one important reason why Ashcroft use the stronger ZF24 from a rangie. Unfortunately being electronic controlled you would need to add the very expensive compushift.

Some people in this thread are indicating the Disco II has the same transmission as the rangie, but IIRC it is simply an electronic controlled version of the smaller ZF22, not 24 as used in rangies.

This should be on the Ashcroft website, but you may need to dig down a bit to find all. If Ashcroft contradict my ramblings, then be guided by them.

Hi,

We use the disco 2 V8 electronic 4HP22 with a new bellhousing and the Compushift to control it,

You don't need the 24 with the TDCi engine the 22 is fine, we have done over 150 of these now,

The cooler we use works fine but we have fitted an additional cooler on a couple of vehicles, ie very heavy 110 overlanding in Africa,

We do now actually fit the V8 converter in place of the smaller 300 one, great for tuned 300's and 2.8's running on the 300 Autobox :

300 TDi Heavy Duty Torque Converter - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/300-tdi-heavy-duty-torque-converter.html)

Dave

[Babs]

Hi, We use the disco 2 V8 electronic 4HP22 with a new bellhousing and the Compushift to control it, You don't need the 24 with the TDCi engine the 22 is fine, we have done over 150 of these now, The cooler we use works fine but we have fitted an additional cooler on a couple of vehicles, ie very heavy 110 overlanding in Africa, We do now actually fit the V8 converter in place of the smaller 300 one, great for tuned 300's and 2.8's running on the 300 Autobox : 300 TDi Heavy Duty Torque Converter - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/300-tdi-heavy-duty-torque-converter.html) Dave

Hi Dave,

I have been told that towing with the 2.2 Puma and your auto conversion that I will get overheating and a loss of power especially on take off????

Apparently there is a European couple who are travelling around the world that were here in OZ and were having that exact same problem, they have apparently since converted back to a manual gearbox. ????

I'm keen to do an auto conversion but not at a sacrifice of overheating when towing or significant power loss??? Any thoughts????

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[uninformed]

just to be clear, when you say over heating, are you referring to the gearbox or engine?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

will your remapped 2.2 put out more torque than the remapped TD5's?
Lots of Td5's running around towing stuff.
The ZF22's will run all day if the temps are controlled. synthetic oil and an extra gearbox oil cooler covers that.
Engine temp is a whole 'nother ball game. but a decent pyrometer and water temp guage will soon tell you the truth.;)

[Bush65]

Autos do reduce available power, because of internal losses (that is the heat that is created).

The loss is greatly reduced when the torque convertor is 'locked'.

Power is a function of velocity, it will always be low during take-off. This is when torque is important. The engine never produces sufficient torque, so gearing by reducing rpm's, multiply the torque.

The torque convertor performs a similar, but different function. It increases the available torque at the road, by slipping so the engine operating speed is higher and can develop more torque.

Once the vehicle is up to speed the torque convertor locks up, reducing power losses and the heat created.

So yes the auto will be more sluggish compared to a manual, but ........

Some members here have had issues with Puma engine overheating. The ECU protects the engine from overheating, but the worry is the sudden loss of power, at times when that can get you into trouble. You might need a change of pants if you overtook a semi up a hill, pulled back into the same lane, then lost all power while xx tonnes is rapidly filling your rear view mirrors.

An automatic transmission cooler in front of the radiator will have an impact on the engine cooling system.

Until someone sorts out the issues, it will cost money, trial and rework. What works in the UK, won't guarantee the same results here, with summer temps double what they have.

I recall George130 on aulro, bought the automatic TD5 130 that had belonged to Bruce Davis' wife (before her tragic accident). It had been worked over by Bruce so had much more power than stock. George130 had a good deal of problems with the auto, mostly relating to overheating, and took a lot to sort out.

I don't doubt what Dave Ashcroft says, but if it was me, I would use the biggest transmission cooler I could get, and would also upgrade the radiator. Be aware that another member bought an upgraded radiator for a Puma from Alisport in the UK and it made little change to his cooling problems. Again I caution about differences between here and the UK.

Wholesale Autos working with Dave Ashcroft should put you straight on the transmission side, but no one has yet gone to a 'real' specialist in cooling systems here to get the engine cooling system sorted - the issue is not whether they can do it, rather the lack of experience with Land Rovers, and the time and cost of one off custom work.

[Babs]

just to be clear, when you say over heating, are you referring to the gearbox or engine?

Gearbox. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Autos do reduce available power, because of internal losses (that is the heat that is created). The loss is greatly reduced when the torque convertor is 'locked'. Power is a function of velocity, it will always be low during take-off. This is when torque is important. The engine never produces sufficient torque, so gearing by reducing rpm's, multiply the torque. The torque convertor performs a similar, but different function. It increases the available torque at the road, by slipping so the engine operating speed is higher and can develop more torque. Once the vehicle is up to speed the torque convertor locks up, reducing power losses and the heat created. So yes the auto will be more sluggish compared to a manual, but ........ Some members here have had issues with Puma engine overheating. The ECU protects the engine from overheating, but the worry is the sudden loss of power, at times when that can get you into trouble. You might need a change of pants if you overtook a semi up a hill, pulled back into the same lane, then lost all power while xx tonnes is rapidly filling your rear view mirrors. An automatic transmission cooler in front of the radiator will have an impact on the engine cooling system. Until someone sorts out the issues, it will cost money, trial and rework. What works in the UK, won't guarantee the same results here, with summer temps double what they have. I recall George130 on aulro, bought the automatic TD5 130 that had belonged to Bruce Davis' wife (before her tragic accident). It had been worked over by Bruce so had much more power than stock. George130 had a good deal of problems with the auto, mostly relating to overheating, and took a lot to sort out. I don't doubt what Dave Ashcroft says, but if it was me, I would use the biggest transmission cooler I could get, and would also upgrade the radiator. Be aware that another member bought an upgraded radiator for a Puma from Alisport in the UK and it made little change to his cooling problems. Again I caution about differences between here and the UK. Wholesale Autos working with Dave Ashcroft should put you straight on the transmission side, but no one has yet gone to a 'real' specialist in cooling systems here to get the engine cooling system sorted - the issue is not whether they can do it, rather the lack of experience with Land Rovers, and the time and cost of one off custom work.

Well said ;)

And that's the correct information I was looking for. "Nail on the Head"

Thanks Bush.

So the auto is now out of the question, time for a new post on a booster to lighten the clutch. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ashtrans]

Hi John,

I wouldn't disagree with any of that,

when used in your extreme environment you need to take a holistic approach for a conversion to be reliable, this means that you need to look at gearing, cooling, converter lockup speed for both economy and less heat generation and engine cooling.

I will leave the engine as this is outside my domain but as suggested the transmission heat will have an effect on the engine rad efficiency. I was not aware they suffer from poor cooling in stock form, a prime example of the differences we see in different continents.

It would depend what you were towing but to get this type of vehicle anywhere near reliable you would want to drop the transfer case from 1.211 to 1.667 or 1.410, adjust the converter lockup speed to 5mph under your normal cruising speed and as John suggested fitting a good size cooler, on a normal puma we fit one between the fan and rad, inside the cowl which is 300 x 300 x 50mm, on a few vehicles we have fitted a second one in front of the rad by moving the AC rad to the side and putting it next to it, also fit a transmission temp gauge and a overheat lamp.

Its all about the gearing, e.g. one customer pulls tourist trains in low box all day in 40 deg heat with a train weight of 12 tonnes, another customer uses the 2.4, 2.2 and 3.2 with the ZF in 7 tonne crop sprayers. The UK MOD use a 2.8 TDi with the ZF , a 1.6 transfer case and 4.11 gears in the axles,

I was aware of some traveling Germans who had a problem in Australia with an auto puma which we supplied and was installed by a garage in Germany, I dont know the cause of their problems but I guarantee it will be because the gearing / heat issues weren't addressed.

I short they can be made to be reliable but all these factors need to be considered and fully tested before I would venture into the bush with confidence, you also have the issue that should you have a failure, an auto box takes specialist knowledge, a bush mechanic has a far greater chance fixing a manual.

Dave

[alan48]

Hi,whilst I too am considering an auto for my new puma 130 dual cab that carries a slideon camper so is heavy I have an auto 130 big cab 300tdi with a new disco auto fitted by DPL when conversion done. The car is great off the line thanks to some manifold work and so easy to use but we did get auto temps off the scale initially when climbing in Vic Alps-showed 150 degrees with a small cooler infront and below radiator. As soon as we added an extra cooler with Davis Craig fan behind the cabin and just below the tray our temps now sit around 70 degrees maybe up a bit in traffic etc--so no question extra cooling will be a huge help no matter which auto path you go, but best to keep cooler away from radiator for efficiency.Might be interested in a group buy for my 2.2 puma:).

[Babs]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your honesty on this. Sometime it's just not as basic as swapping out boxes.

As much as I'm prepared to pay for a conversion I'm not prepared for adding additional mods to compensate any issues arising. I'll let someone else be the guinea pig if they wish. :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Does anyone know much about these?

Pro's / Con's?

Now that the auto conversion is off the table I am wanting to lighten the clutch on my, MY12 Defender Puma 2.2

Any thoughts/comments appreciated. Cheers. :)

http://www.redbooster.com/

Note to moderator, I tried making this a new thread but it would come up as an error, I can reply to threads but can't start a new thread. Par Error comes up

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Moderator. Sorry. Parse error

I can't even edit posts.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner