Attacks on Police

[Ausfree]

Getting sick of stories of drunken thugs using Police Officers as punching bags.:mad:

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/police-officer-punched-spat-on/story-fni6ul2m-1226789276851)

We are constantly reading and seeing stories of how Police "overeacted" or "picked on" idiots when all the police are doing........ is their job.:mad:

I am sure there are a lot of opinions on this forum, but for me, the judges need to toughen up and send drunken idiots who assault Police Officers to lengthy jail sentences.
Same for the so-called "king hit" on people. Lengthy jail sentences appear to be one answer along with restrictions on the availability of alcohol.

King hits and attacks on Police seem to be coming more and more common!!

[austastar]

Hi,
I'm of the opinion that any one who gets abusive with police/firefighters/ambos/nursing staff etc should suffer substantial penalties on top of what ever other penalties they incur.
cheers

[highrr]

Yep, your 2 up on the way to these jobs and when they go bad, they go real bad, and you hope to hell you stay upright to react back. The good old days of policing are gone.

[d2dave]

Assaulting a police officer should automatically mean double the sentence of what it would have been had it not been a cop.

Would not be much of a deterrent in Vic though, as double nothing = nothing.

[Ean Austral]

Nothing worse, they should get serious, 10 yrs, no excuses, no shortcuts, send out a real message its not accepted full stop.




Wont happen in my life time, but maybe when there are no cops left things may change.


Cheers Ean

[joel0407]

It's interesting to see the different opinions on this.

Police mainly deal with a very low percentage of the population apart fromdealing with the odd burglary victim. You'll find most victims usually haveplenty of police prior involvement themselves.

Personally I think police have to expect crooks (not my usual term) to wantto fight and flee. It’s part of the job.

I’d just be happy of the courts would treat cops that same as everybodyelse. It seems that they either apply a lighter sentence for the reason Istated or a heavier sentence because as others have posted.

But I'm not like everybody else.
Kiwi cops - not like everybody else - YouTube (http://youtu.be/AwXb3p6j6oU)

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

A friend just commented to me “why not give a higher penalty to deter acrook from assaulting police”. Well why not give a higher penalty to detercrooks from doing anything? Part of the job of police is to protect others fromharm and sometimes that means getting harmed themselves. It doesn’t matter whogets harmed the penalty should be the same.

Just my opinion

Happy Days

[ramblingboy42]

joel0407.....I don't know where you draw your information from.

You obviously have no idea at all what you are talking about.

Speak to police officers before you make statements like above.

I'm quite sure they will point out the errors of your ways....

[dullbird]

I got the impression Joel possibly has been a police officer maybe in NZ

[Sandgroper]

No one goes to work to be hit and spat on. The bastard that did this needs a bloody good hiding and several years in a hard prison, then we'd see how tough the mongrel was.

[R Miller]

I honestly think they shouldn't do fines, fines don't work. Time is what sends a real message, straight to jail, no good behaviour, and FFS get rid of (SPER) or whatever its called, I know so many blokes that have been fined, arrange a really limp wristed way of repaying the fine and just laugh it off. If you cant pay the fine go to jail sets a really clear message!

[joel0407]

No one goes to work to be hit and spat on. The bastard that did this needs a bloody good hiding and several years in a hard prison, then we'd see how tough the mongrel was.

You're right, no one does go to work to be spat on but it's accepted as part of the job. Police go to work knowing that day, someone could try and shoot them, they may need to shoot someone else, some one may spit at them, someone may try and hurt them in some other way. It's the job, it's not for everyone.

The point of this thread though. I dont think it's any better or worse if it's a police officer or civilian that gets punched. The penalty should be the same. We are all people and deserved the same. It bothers me those that think they are better than another.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

I honestly think they shouldn't do fines, fines don't work. Time is what sends a real message, straight to jail, no good behaviour, and FFS get rid of (SPER) or whatever its called, I know so many blokes that have been fined, arrange a really limp wristed way of repaying the fine and just laugh it off. If you cant pay the fine go to jail sets a really clear message!



Gaol can be a quick way to send a person who is on the edge of the criminalworld straight in the deep end.

Gaol means loss of job, new criminal contacts with criminal ideas.

[joel0407]

You obviously have no idea at all what you are talking about.



Which bit?

Yes, I'm sure police would love crooks to get higher penalty for assaulting them but I dont think it's right.




Speak to police officers before you make statements like above.



What do you think they will say. I'm interested.

Happy days.

[THE BOOGER]

I know quite a few police and no they dont accept being spat on or assaulted is just part of the job:angrylock:
knowing something might happen and accepting it or two different things .
And I think the average copper is worth more than a dozen or so average crimms

[joel0407]

I know quite a few police and no they dont accept being spat on or assaulted is just part of the job:angrylock:
knowing something might happen and accepting it or two different things .
And I think the average copper is worth more than a dozen or so average crimms

I think some are miss understanding what I mean by accepting it as part of the job.

Police cant expect to deal with a violent criminals and not expect that one will try and assault them. It's like saying a rodeo rider will never get hurt by a bull. You take every precaution possible but you cant be ready for everything. One day one will get the better of you. It could be a night shift, you've had nothing to do all night except go to Maccers and get coffee and then you get a call to a simple noise complaint. You knock on the door and your met with some filthy ice addict that cant be reasoned with, he is smashing the place up and then he takes his anger to the police for no particular reason. Your tied and not on top of your game, he has no pain compliance, he has been OC sprayed and get a punch in on police.

Same ice addict is tripping in the shopping centre and takes a liking to your girl friend. He starts grabbing her and she tells him to bugger off. He doesn't like it and punches her.

So is it worse becasue the police are just doing their job or just because your girl friend is hot.

Assualt is bad full stop. It doesnt matter who gets assualted.

[THE BOOGER]

Yes but we have harsher penalties for assaults on blacks, asians and gays why not give the police the same protection or respect

[sashadidi]

What is amazing in New Zealand at least is that if the police use a bit of biff to subdue a violent person that person screams blue murder and demands compensation.
Life is not like the movies and its not easy to stop a drunk or a iceman (as Joel calls them) the whingers ought to try the Russian police, they will stop you pretty fast, no tasers etc and no compensation.
@ about 51 seconds on this video
Polizei Brutalität/Police brutality in Russia//Stopt Staatsgewalt - YouTube

[joel0407]

Yes but we have harsher penalties for assaults on blacks, asians and gays why not give the police the same protection or respect

Really? What legislation is that?

Happy Days

[Ausfree]

It has to be said that aggression in society (particularly among young males) has reached a point where something has to be done. Why do some young people think that a good time is when you preload (both drugs and alcohol) go out on the town, load up some more and then go and bash somebody ( innocent bystander, police or emergency staff) and then consider that a good nights sport.!!!!:confused:

Enough is enough, despite what some people say, police are not paid to be nightly punching bags for scum. These people need a strong attitude re- adjustment lesson and the scene on the news last night of the police officer shoving a drunken idiot over, sends me the message that the only thing these type of people understand is force. Good on the copper, his sargent had just been "king hit" and spat on and nobody deserves that.:mad:

I guess, now that idiot will put in a complaint about police "brutality" and the officer involved stood down pending an investigation.:mad:

[DiscoMick]

Obviously, the cops/ambos/fieries etc should not have to cop attacks from anyone, but its a part of the real world, I guess.
I think there's a difference for the cops etc between dealing with a hardened criminal and dealing with a Joe Public who's had a few too many and wants a fight.
I have a friend who is a police inspector dealing mainly with bikers and other crims. and his blokes know what reception they are likely to get, so its part of the job for them.
It's different for ordinary cops, who wouldn't normally expect the public to go for them. Sadly, alcohol seems to fuel a lot of violence, particularly in places such as the Gold Coast.
Ultimately, no amount of changing the laws is likely to stop some people from getting a skinfull and swinging punches. People rarely change their behaviour because a law is made harsher, as they usually assume they won't get caught.
I think it comes back to attitudes in society about what is acceptable behaviour. Our society laughs at people, particularly blokes, who get drunk and go beserk, as if its some kind of rite of passage to manhood, when actually its just stupidity. Peer pressure, not harsher laws, is the best deterrent. The next time our mates are going too far, we need to just encourage them to think twice and be more responsible. For example, we used to laugh at drunk drivers, but now we are likely to discourage them from getting behind the wheel. Prevention is better than trying to clear up the mess afterwards.

[dullbird]

Ban alcohol!!! sorted!! :p
















waits for 99.8% of the forum to get upset:wasntme:

[Ausfree]

Yeah, and I would be one of them. I like a beer as much as the next bloke.:D

[DiscoMick]

Alcohol is not to blame, any more than steak is to blame for fatness. The blame rests with stupidity. Can we ban stupidity? Probably not.

[jimr1]

I don't believe anyone should get punched ,licked or spat at full stop . A police officer doesn't want to go to work to be treated like that . The point is they do have to go and deal with drunks , and drug addicts , a people with mental illnesses , that's because that's what they have to do . They also have a lots aids , and back up . As has been said someone hitting a cop should be given a good hiding and thrown into jail . Thats the sort of stuff the Gestapo used to do .I think the law should be the same for everyone ..

[jimr1]

Sorry I meant to say kicked , not licked !!..

[Treads]

Sorry I meant to say kicked , not licked !!..

I was about to comment that being licked was the only thing on your list that I didn't suffer whilst on the job today!

I certainly didn't go in to work thinking "It's Christmas day, I'd like to get in a major dust up with a drunk this shift" :mad:

[joel0407]

I certainly didn't go in to work thinking "It's Christmas day, I'd like to get in a major dust up with a drunk this shift" :mad:

But yet it happens because, like it or not, that's what people police deal with do.

[Treads]

But yet it happens because, like it or not, that's what people police deal with do.

So that makes it right, does it?

I get to go home to my 3 year old and have to explain the bruises and grazes and say to her "It's okay, daddy is just a punching bag for society's ****" :mad:

Don't think so champ





On the plus side though I didn't have a trip to the hospital....

[THE BOOGER]

Every time we as a society "accept" this behaviour we are lowering the standard its already accepted by the courts that its ok to swear at and call police names, no punishment if we let it go further then how long before the defence says its ok my client attacked a police officer its accepted behaviour? there fore no punishment. I think police and other emergency workers should have extra protection as they are representing society, what message are we sending if we don't support them more ?
We hold particularly police to a higher standard they are sacked for things that normally an employee would be reprimanded for or an employer would not even have a say in so some extra on the other side of the coin is not a problem.:(

[THE BOOGER]

Really? What legislation is that?

Happy Days

Your right plenty of legislation but no hasher penalties they all refer pack to the general crime of assault;)

PS: unless you speak harshly then there are specific penalties( racial vilification)

[Ausfree]

The thing is, we are "supposed" to be a modern, wealthy civilised country. This is not South Sudan or Syria. Do police have to wear riot gear every time they go on patrol? The moment we see that, we know we have lost the plot, to see a police officer now on the job, with all the gear they carry makes me fear for our future.

Our society really needs to look at itself and question the direction we are heading because I for one am very cautious now if I want to go into town at night to go to the pictures or see a show. Never used to be like that at all.

The availability of alcohol needs curtailing and judges really need to clamp down on anybody accused of dealing drugs or assaulting people. I can understand the frustration of a copper who goes to the trouble of arresting somebody doing the wrong thing, going through all the paperwork, attending court only to see the judge let the offender off with a warning.

As far as I am concerned, you do the wrong thing you go to the slammer, full stop.

[Treads]

Do police have to wear riot gear every time they go on patrol? The moment we see that, we know we have lost the plot, to see a police officer now on the job, with all the gear they carry makes me fear for our future.

Riot Gear???

Mate, other than tasers we really don't carry anything more than 'back in the day'; it's just that it's now usually carried on load bearing chest platforms, instead of around the waist on belts. It's simply about common sense and occupational safety for us ie. the strain that handcuffs, baton, spray, radio and a loaded pistol put on your back when wearing it on the belt.

[ugu80]

Riot Gear???

Mate, other than tasers we really don't carry anything more than 'back in the day'; it's just that it's now usually carried on load bearing chest platforms, instead of around the waist on belts. It's simply about common sense and occupational safety for us ie. the strain that handcuffs, baton, spray, radio and a loaded pistol put on your back when wearing it on the belt.
When I was a young Constable, the total appointments were a revolver with six bullets and handcuffs. My station had three cars, only one had a two way radio; in the others you to had ring in every hour at the call box at Arncliffe, Brighton-Le-Sands or Sans Souci (who can remember those) and this was a metropolitan station. The big difference between then and now.....alcohol availability. Then pubs closed at 10pm, clubs at midnight and if you wanted to drink after that, Kings Cross.

[jimr1]

I was about to comment that being licked was the only thing on your list that I didn't suffer whilst on the job today!

I certainly didn't go in to work thinking "It's Christmas day, I'd like to get in a major dust up with a drunk this shift" :mad:
My comment wasn't meant to offend you you but clearly did . No one goes to work to be assaulted , So let me tell you about my daughter , she also went to work on Xmas day , also boxing day . She is a carer her first job was to change nappies on old people , there family's didn't come to collect for Xmas , That's her job . Let me just say she also has 5 children at home . She earns $20 an hour , but she does It . She has also been punched , bit spat at , but she does her job . That's without complaint .

[Treads]

My comment wasn't meant to offend you you but clearly did .

No, not at all. I got a chuckle out of the typo :D

The angry face was about going to work on Christmas day and dealing with the same douchebags that we deal with every other day of the year. It would have been nice to have a quiet one!


No one goes to work to be assaulted , So let me tell you about my daughter , she also went to work on Xmas day , also boxing day . She is a carer her first job was to change nappies on old people , there family's didn't come to collect for Xmas , That's her job . Let me just say she also has 5 children at home . She earns $20 an hour , but she does It . She has also been punched , bit spat at , but she does her job . That's without complaint .

Carers, nurses, ambos, etc should have even more protection than us. At least I can punch & kick back (I'll leave out the lick bit :p ).

[Treads]

When I was a young Constable, the total appointments were a revolver with six bullets and handcuffs.


*cough* dinosaur *cough* :p :wasntme:

[joel0407]

Riot Gear???

Mate, other than tasers we really don't carry anything more than 'back in the day'; it's just that it's now usually carried on load bearing chest platforms, instead of around the waist on belts. It's simply about common sense and occupational safety for us ie. the strain that handcuffs, baton, spray, radio and a loaded pistol put on your back when wearing it on the belt.

Lucky you. Not all Australian police get Tasers.

[ugu80]

I can also tell you size matters, despite what the warm and fuzzy P.C. crowd say. In my early days cops were male and of a minimum size standard (lets not got into the rights and wrongs, the truth is, in certain situations [particularly domestics], women are better). I am 185cm and, in those days, 110kgs with regular (heavy) weight training so it wasn't all fat. I was a cyclist for most of my career and thus working solo and hardly ever had anyone want to take me on. One example in particular, backed up locals at pub for 'man refusing to leave'. The local were there first and when I went in there was a young male Constable (about 60kgs) and a young female Constable about the same kgs. The male Const was grabbing the arm of the 90 odd kg guy to be ejected who would just swing his arm back and fling off the young copper like an annoying insect, then go back to his beer. I stepped in and grabbed his arm; he tried to fling me off but this time his arm didn't move. He looked around (at my chest where the head of the other, smaller cop would have been), looked up, thought for a second and then just said, "Alright. I'm leaving" and just walked out.

[joel0407]

So that makes it right, does it?



No, it's not right. Why would you need to ask?

What do you expect will happen when police take on a violet person, particularly a violet intoxicated person? Do you think it will make any difference at all if the penalty for assault on police is greater? Do you think a violent intoxicated or drug effected person will go:

"Oh it's the police, I'll just lie down and put my hands behind my back because if I try and fight them I might go to gaol for longer than if I just punch some random citizen".

People who assault police are beyond reason and it wouldn't matter what the penalty was, they would still take the same action. The only difference is the copper might get a bit more satisfaction.

Happy Days

[Treads]

No, it's not right. Why would you need to ask?

What do you expect will happen when police take on a violet person, particularly a violet intoxicated person? Do you think it will make any difference at all if the penalty for assault on police is greater? Do you think a violent intoxicated or drug effected person will go:

"Oh it's the police, I'll just lie down and put my hands behind my back because if I try and fight them I might go to gaol for longer than if I just punch some random citizen".

People who assault police are beyond reason and it wouldn't matter what the penalty was, they would still take the same action. The only difference is the copper might get a bit more satisfaction.

Happy Days

If they were just violet, then I'd be much happier... ;)

No, mostly we rock up and 90% of dickheads decide (quite rightly) to just do as they are told and don't make a scene - It's the other 10% that don't care. Harsher sentencing and more of a crackdown on their behaviour by society in general might make a difference to that lot.

Knowing you WILL go to gaol for assaulting an emergency/health worker could be a deterrent.

In Victoria it is slowly working in family violence situations. In most cases people with IVO's against them know that they'll get locked up for breaching.

[sheerluck]

If they were just violet, then I'd be much happier... ;)

That's how to deal with it Treads, if they start getting violent, just take their 'n' away. ;)

[joel0407]

The male Const was grabbing the arm of the 90 odd kg guy to be ejected who would just swing his arm back and fling off the young copper like an annoying insect, then go back to his beer.

I had to have a laugh at this.


thought for a second and then just said, "Alright. I'm leaving" and just walked out.

And you didn't charge him for resist police. Heaven forbid. Things have changed.

Young coppers these days think people should just do what they ask and then they charge them when they don't (multiple resist police). Really, what did he think was going to happen when he took on someone with and extra half his weight. Best to wait until you have the man power, issue him a ticket for fail to leave licensed premises when requested, and then use the extra manpower to eject him. If he is sober and compliant enough, give him a direction to leave the area, if not, lock him up for being intoxicated and disorderly otherwise he will just get into more trouble and you'll have to deal with him again. Also a good idea to get them lockup out of the way while the extra man power is there.

Before someone jumps in and says the extra manpower isn't always available, that's why police carry accoutrements. If he is sitting there drinking a beer, there is time to wait. If he is biffing on, I can smell OC.

Oh and don't be surprised if he wants to fight all of the police taking him out. If he lands one, well the police have been assaulted but it's no worse than the innocent punter that got punched by the drunk because he didn't like the colour of his shirt. I just had to add this because that's the subject of the thread. Assault is bad no matter what your role in society.

Something we don't see police handing out is the infringements to the bar staff serving intoxicated people. Police spend millions of dollars to catch drug dealers but dealing alcohol is a little too accepted. (Division 8.2 Liquor Act 2010 - ACT Legislation Register (http://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legislation.act.gov.au%2Fa%2F 2010-35%2Fcurrent%2Fpdf%2F2010-35.pdf&ei=jNG7Uq6sD8asiAfX_IHACg&usg=AFQjCNEQSmwwtrqpBV6Q7FZvkZKvG09vPA&bvm=bv.58187178,d.aGc). Every state has there own version.)

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

No, mostly we rock up and 90% of dickheads decide (quite rightly) to just do as they are told and don't make a scene - It's the other 10% that don't care. Harsher sentencing and more of a crackdown on their behaviour by society in general might make a difference to that lot.

Knowing you WILL go to gaol for assaulting an emergency/health worker could be a deterrent.

In Victoria it is slowly working in family violence situations. In most cases people with IVO's against them know that they'll get locked up for breaching.

Because it's that 10% (I think it's far far less) that are the main people police deal with and the ones they remember. The 90% that get asked to leave and do are quickly forgotten.

I think breaching an IVO is a much more thought about act and that's why the harsher penalty works. The drug and alcohol effected people that assault police are far from reason. If they could be reasoned with they wouldn't be assaulting police. And again well if we are making the penalty harsher for assaulting police what about making the penalty more for assaulting my wife (she hasn't been assaulted, just making as example)?

[joel0407]

If they were just violet, then I'd be much happier... ;)

You can put your red pen away here, Sgt.

[ugu80]

I do know what you are trying to highlight, Joel. Assault is wrong and unacceptable, regardless of who it is being committed upon.

[Treads]

Because it's that 10% (I think it's far far less) that are the main people police deal with and the ones they remember. The 90% that get asked to leave and do are quickly forgotten.

I think breaching an IVO is a much more thought about act and that's why the harsher penalty works. The drug and alcohol effected people that assault police are far from reason. If they could be reasoned with they wouldn't be assaulting police. And again well if we are making the penalty harsher for assaulting police what about making the penalty more for assaulting my wife (she hasn't been assaulted, just making as example)?


Is that your firsthand experience talking here?

[joel0407]

I do know what you are trying to highlight, Joel. Assault is wrong and unacceptable, regardless of who it is being committed upon.



Bingo.


And everybody is important to someone. Police, ambos, firies, friends, partners, brothers, sisters, mother, fathers and children.

[joel0407]

Is that your firsthand experience talking here?

What makes you ask that?

[Treads]

What makes you ask that?

You seem to be speaking with some experience. I was just wondering what that was?

Not trying to pick a fight; but an earlier post of yours indicated that you thought police should expect to be assaulted on the job


it's accepted as part of the job. Police go to work knowing that day, someone could try and shoot them, they may need to shoot someone else, some one may spit at them, someone may try and hurt them in some other way.

[vnx205]

Not trying to pick a fight; but an earlier post of yours indicated that you thought police should expect to be assaulted on the job

Here we go again. :)

My impression is that when Joel says the police accept that their job involves some fairly unpleasant things, he just means that it would be unrealistic for them to believe that it will never happen to them.

I don't think he means that they are quite happy for it to occur.

In the same way that a truck driver might say that he accepts that one of the risks of spending so much time on the road is that there is a greater chance that he will be inconvenienced or worse by some car driver who obviously got his licence from a cereal packet. Once again, it doesn't mean he is happy for that to occur.

In that context "accepting it as part of the job" could just mean being aware of the fact that it is a risk you run in that occupation. It doesn't have to mean that you tolerate it or welcome it.

OTOH, I could be completely wrong about what he means. :D

[UncleHo]

Way back in the early 70's I used to work an afternoon shift and have a"Counter Lunch/tea"at the hotel cnr of Princess Hwy and Canel /Ricketty st
"Southern Cross" from memory,and can remember a migrant bloke very drunk and VERY loud giving the barman trouble evicting him, the local "Bikie Group" came to barman's assistance,noise maker tossed into first lane of traffic :o everything quietned down and we had tea and left,problem solved no need for police involvement.

I also rode motorbikes in Sydney and would spend 5/6 nights up the "Cross" watching the hippy chicks etc.and have seen "Bikers" assist the strip club doormen eject patrons for drunkeness, we would often transport Strippers from one club to another on the back of our bikes,(all this was long before the Drugs and Guns of today's culture) the F100 "Paddy Wagon" doing the half hourly cruise up Darlinghurst Rd, never got to ride in it,came close for giving a constable lip, "what's that C*nstable" :wasntme:
and got an invitation to go down to the station in Victoria St and get my kidneys re-arranged :eek: Eer, no thanks and took off into the "Jungle Room " Aah! Gee I miss the 70's.

[joel0407]

OTOH, I could be completely wrong about what he means. :D


Nope. Sounds like exactly what I am trying to say.

Happy Days

[joel0407]

You seem to be speaking with some experience. I was just wondering what that was?

I thought my comment about red pen would have given that away.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I spent some time in Japan and actually went looking for a bit of edginess in the the bigger cities because it seemed so strange that it was all so safe at any time of night in any part of town. Unless I got lucky and didn't find any, I can only put it down to a zero tolerance policy on behalf of the police/state/whatever. I can't comment with any authority why it was so safe and peaceful but it was in stark contrast to what I have experienced in my younger years going out in certain parts of Brisbane and Sydney. Would be interesting to know what they they do that is different.

[joel0407]

Here we go again. :)

My impression is that when Joel says the police accept that their job involves some fairly unpleasant things, he just means that it would be unrealistic for them to believe that it will never happen to them.

I don't think he means that they are quite happy for it to occur.

In the same way that a truck driver might say that he accepts that one of the risks of spending so much time on the road is that there is a greater chance that he will be inconvenienced or worse by some car driver who obviously got his licence from a cereal packet. Once again, it doesn't mean he is happy for that to occur.

In that context "accepting it as part of the job" could just mean being aware of the fact that it is a risk you run in that occupation. It doesn't have to mean that you tolerate it or welcome it.

OTOH, I could be completely wrong about what he means. :D

I should add that I don't think its any more right or wrong.

[joel0407]

I spent some time in Japan and actually went looking for a bit of edginess in the the bigger cities because it seemed so strange that it was all so safe at any time of night in any part of town. Unless I got lucky and didn't find any, I can only put it down to a zero tolerance policy on behalf of the police/state/whatever. I can't comment with any authority why it was so safe and peaceful but it was in stark contrast to what I have experienced in my younger years going out in certain parts of Brisbane and Sydney. Would be interesting to know what they they do that is different.

Wow. I could go of a huge tangent here why it's different in Japan (my wife is Japanese). If you consider the culture of drinking/pubs/fighting/night clubs in Australia. Asians have a couple of extra Genes that mean that metabolize alcohol much faster (40 - 100 times) than Caucasians. It means they get far worse hang overs for one. It's part of the reason they can have alcohol in vending machines in the street and kids don't go near it. Google "Alcohol Flush Reaction". I think it would open up a whole new debate about Asians handling there booze better or worse than others. Out of interest, Aboriginals don't have the 2 genes.

Happy Days

[Treads]

Here we go again. :)


What's that supposed to mean?

[vnx205]

What's that supposed to mean?

I formed the impression early on in this thread that Joel was using the term "accept" to mean one thing and that some other posters had assumed that he meant something quite different.

It appeared to me that people didn't really disagree about the role of police or their attitude to their job. It seemed to me that a simple communication problem was causing a low level of antagonism.

Attempts in some posts to resolve the communication difficulties appeared to me to have been unsuccessful. So in my view, all the discussion about what police "accepted" seemed to be going nowhere.

I made the comment about "here we go again" because it seemed to me that we were going to go over the same ground again. I expected the same misunderstanding to continue and the conversation to either go around in circles or else to fuel unnecessary argument.

I don't believe that people had different views on the subject. I thought that all the disagreement was about the meaning of the word "accept". I didn't expect further discussion to clarify things.

That is why I followed the comment with my own interpretation of how the term was being used. I thought I might be able to help avoid what I thought had been unproductive discussion in some earlier posts.

I can see that as other people were not privy to the opinion I had formed about the nature of the problem, That my opening comment might have seemed a bit strange or maybe even antagonistic.

I was trying to be helpful.

[DiscoMick]

From what I know Japanese people, and Asians in general, are raised with a much stronger culture of showing respect to elders, more powerful or important people, bosses etc, as Asian culture is much more vertically organized than our much flatter social structure. This means that, even if you're a crim., you are expected to respect those who should be shown it. Notice that Yakuza usually leave the public alone, for example, and that there are many stories of people leaving wallets on trains and having them returned untouched.
There is also a belief that to behave badly is to bring shame on your family, which is regarded as unacceptable because if a child behaves badly it is seen as showing that the parents have failed to raise the child properly, and the parents would step in and swiftly try to pull the troublesome offspring back into line for the sake of the family's honour. If only our children were raised the same way.
Drunkeness tends to happen in private rather than in public too.
Besides, I think you would find that, as far as nightlife goes, venues would have bouncers who wouldn't hesitate to put troublesome patrons out on their bums, with a little physical encouragement not to come back, and the police would often be quite happy to have the problem solved for them.

[Disco Muppet]

Ahh, Criminological theory! My area! :p




Knowing you WILL go to gaol for assaulting an emergency/health worker could be a deterrent.

This is a pretty important statement right here, although you can take away everything after gaol.
Keep in mind my understanding is purely theoretical but it's all peer reviewed so it's not liking I'm getting this off the back of my Milo cereal :p
Research has suggested that it's not the harshness of the punishment that has the most impact on an individuals decision to engage in offending/deviant behaviour, it's the certainty of being caught.
Some examples:
Punishment for drink driving is 100 lashes in town square and you get your nuts chopped off, but it's poorly policed and no-one ever gets done. Is this going to stop anyone? Probably not.
Punishment for drink driving is a $xxxxx fine, jail time capped at 10 years, loss of license, and it's incredibly well policed, people get done every single day.
Which one do you think will make the most difference? ;)

FWIW, I think assaulting any emergency services worker/officer/whatever deserves a harsher punishment to a degree, but not to ridiculous level.
People who have a whinge about police using force to restrain individuals have obviously never tried to restrain someone off their chops.
A classic example of this was the fuss about the Sydney Mardi-Gras incident, based on a whopping 8 seconds of video or something similarly revealing (not). It's only when the rest of the video about the individuals actions in the 20 minutes or so leading up to it were released that the hounds were quietened down somewhat.
Cheers
Muppet

[THE BOOGER]

I dont think anybody means make it a capitol offense although the yanks have made it federal offense just abit more deterrent to show do not accept it for anybody but particuarly police/emergency workers:angrylock:

[DiscoMick]

There are already plenty of laws about assault, so I agree we don't need more laws, but we do need an attitude in society that certain acts are simply unacceptable. Peer pressure is important. For example, even most crims would agree that bashing an old lady is unacceptable. Assaulting other people should be seen the same way. Unortunately, violent movies and games have made violence seem more commonplace, when actually, it's not.
We should keep it in perspective though. Australia is a relatively safe society, particularly compared with the USA, for example. We should not go down that path.

[gimposarillios]

Perhaps if we start enforcing responsible service of alchahol there would be less ****ed tools punching on a t 3am. Why do they even make people do rsa courses then let them serve shots to ****ed idiots pushing them over the edge. Stop serving and kick them out if they have a problem with not being served. They may be on the street but hopefully still with a clear enough mind not to belt a cop.

[gazby]

I agree that ALL assaults or physical violence should be treated seriously, not just coppers, ambo's, emgency workers, nurses etc, but ALL of us, we are all humans.
Of all these the police have the powers and the best and approved methods available to protect themselves. Why is it we always hear them say when they have to use lethal force (death to the perpetrator) "I was only doing my job", but when they get hit that is considered NOT part of the job, not that they should expect it, but it surely comes with the territory, (the job).
If we didn't have problem people in society we would not need a police force.
Before retirement I was a Fitter, that job meant I got dirty hands and clothes every day, it was part of the job, I liked what I did so I did not fell the need to complain.
As far as I know not one person who became a Policeman was ever held at gunpoint and told "you will be a cop"!. There was, as with all of us a career choice, and some can do it others will opt to leave the chosen path and get a cleaner/tamer career, life is not always fair.
I feel sorry for a soldier serving in the theatre of war, he generally has less choices, and is always certain that the "other guys", or "dickheads" as our policeman likes to think of them, the 90%, will be out to get him.
That comment from our policeman maybe sums it up, I think is how a lot of our "new world" police regard the rest of society, and in a lot of cases use their powers to treat us accordingly, no wonder they can "sense" a lack of support from the people they swear to "serve and protect", there is a "them and us" thing happening.
I support harsher penalties for ALL physical assaults on ALL people.

[Treads]

We only deal with between 10% of the population in a drunk/drugged state on a regular basis. These are the one's I termed as "dickheads"; however my estimate would be that 90% of these people drop everything and do what we instruct them - its' that small percentage that cause the issues.

So our last poster doesn't believe Ambos and Nurses should be supported with harsher penalties dished out when they get assaulted on the job?

[Mick_Marsh]

Very interesting thread. Good to see members of the constabulary commenting in this thread giving their perspective.
My opinion of police changed markedly recently, on the 26th, when a police constable told me she would have shot me. I had not consumed alcohol. I was not violent. I had done nothing wrong.
For this to happen, our society must be really ****ed. I think we are exposed to too much American culture and think it is the norm.

[Mick_Marsh]

We only deal with between 10% of the population in a drunk/drugged state on a regular basis. These are the one's I termed as "dickheads"; however my estimate would be that 90% of these people drop everything and do what we instruct them - its' that small percentage that cause the issues.

So our last poster doesn't believe Ambos and Nurses should be supported with harsher penalties dished out when they get assaulted on the job?
Sorry to hear you think I am less deserving of justice.

[joel0407]

My opinion of police changed markedly recently, on the 26th, when a police constable told me she would have shot me. I had not consumed alcohol. I was not violent. I had done nothing wrong.


For police to tell you she would have shot you, she must have thought that someone was at risk of death or serious harm. What was the situation?

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

it's not liking I'm getting this off the back of my Milo cereal

Nah that's where cops get there college training. They dont become real police until a few years on the job. Part of the problem is they dont realise this UNTIL a few years on the job and no end of telling them will they believe it. Most think they leave college as police. There is good reason why NSW have there probationary constables sitting in the back seat for the first 12 months.

Happy Days

[digger]

<<<snip>>>
Of all these the police have the powers and the best and approved methods available to protect themselves. Why is it we always hear them say when they have to use lethal force (death to the perpetrator) "I was only doing my job",
but when they get hit that is considered NOT part of the job, not that they should expect it, but it surely comes with the territory, (the job).
If we didn't have problem people in society we would not need a police force.
<<<snip>>>
I feel sorry for a soldier serving in the theatre of war, he generally has less choices, and is always certain that the "other guys", or "dickheads" as our policeman likes to think of them, the 90%, will be out to get him.


That comment from our policeman maybe sums it up, I think is how a lot of our "new world" police regard the rest of society, and in a lot of cases use their powers to treat us accordingly, no wonder they can "sense" a lack of support from the people they swear to "serve and protect", there is a "them and us" thing happening.
<<<snip>>>


OK, Ive read this thread on and off and found it interesting but this is enough, time for my 2c worth... If you dont wish to read a rant, ***STOP HERE**

Gazby, I have been in this position and it has been covered elsewhere on this forum, I will not be going back over it, (I do that enough on my own thanks) but be assured- it is something every copper prays wont happen to them.

I would ask that you maybe think a bit more about comments like this as basically it appears ignorant.. (and in some ways I find it offensive but I may (actually pigs arse "may", I AM) a little sensitive to this topic.


I certinally dont expect to be assaulted but I also dont dance around about it when it does happen. For those who have met me they will realise I wasnt born this ugly, I had to get smacked to look this way!

I have 28 years in (in my 29th) the job. I have had teeth rebuilt, the cartledge in my nose torn badly when punched(they cannot break my nose as it has a plastic replacement after a childhood accident), Ive had a fractured eyesocket, a fractured skull, I have been stabbed (more slashed actually) on my left side, and numerous small cuts, stitches, grazes, sprains etc.

I have just come back from a 3 month reconstruction and light duties after having a car door slammed on my knee, this hit the knee cap, and this and during the ensuing fight/arrest, I had split my patella into 2 main and a few smaller pieces, chipped the actuall bone, torn the cartledge and damaged the knee covering that the bones rub across when you move. This means I have a permanantly damaged patella (looks like a square knee now!) the bone chip and some of the loose patella were removed (theyd settled in the channel the patella runs in) had the cartledge tidied up and the area where the knee rubs was also tidied but will cause bad arthritis in the near future..

Almost immediately I was contacted by the Govt contractor in relation to rehab. (this is good).

BUT when it went through court, he plead guilty and admitted to deliberately getting me withy the door and targetting the knee after that... he was still only convicted of assault police (not assault cause harm which would be insisted on by us if it were a member of the public)

He was given a $500 fine (which we all know will never be paid) and a conviction (on the other side he also received a sentence that included incarceration, for his other offences, which included illegal use (stolen car), acts endanger life (driving directly at other traffic (playing chicken at night!!)), theft of fuel, theft of goods from a shop, assault on a shop assistant (pushed her over to get away), drive whilst intoxicated and drive whilst drugged....


Does not a soldier also have a choice in his employment??
I have a brother in the Army, I am incredibly proud of him (and all our service men/women) because they choose this carreer path knowing what could be their duty.

the "new world" police you refer to, they are the same police that do the same duties as we have always done, they however now have probably 10x the duties that we used to have when I started. There are less cops on the road than there used to be, especially when you realise that we are responsible for everything now...inspectors under nearly every act...

We still arrest or report people, we still deal with mistreated children or people or animals, we still clean up the messy fatal or deceased person, we still front and tell the relatives, we still enforce the traffic law but if anyone dies for breaking them its still our fault.... and so on...(something that also doesnt help is when your children get picked on at school by other kids (whose fathers/mothers are 'regular customers') and the school comes at it from a "maybe they should expect that" attitude.... a recent meeting between school and parent (in the job) has hopefully corrected that...what has my son/daughter done to deserve that?? Luckily a large number of friends stood up with him and the bully backed off.. good to have mates I suppose)

How they (we) regard the rest of society hasnt changed, we treat everyone withy respect and hopefully we are treated the same way. This is the basis for policing a level of respect both ways. But when someone hears that a cop has done something wrong (and the reason its such front page news is that really it doesnt happen that often) then every cop is suddenly treated with the same brush..., You say you were a fitter, I had a fitter do some work for me once and it was shoddy, unsafe and downright disgusting...does that by means of your occupation also make your work shoddy unsafe or disgusting? I am not implying that But bI hope you get my point, If it works one way it could work both ways.....

as for the "in a lot of cases use their powers to treat us accordingly" by this I assume that you have been treated as a criminal at some stage by Police? Had you commited an offence... if not was what they suspected reasonable from the information they had?

Or did you do as so many do, and immediately start niggling or complaining about Police and their abuse of power and corruption etc....

My favorite is the "why arent you out catching rapists and murderers" line,
I bite my tongue but I swear just before retirement I will reply with " I have my quota of those, today Im after obnoxious ******, thanks for helping me get my quota"

you also stated "no wonder they can "sense" a lack of support from the people they swear to "serve and protect", there is a "them and us" thing happening."

Yes there is, but in a lot of these cases there isnt a sense of lack of support its outright hostility towards us, getting stopped for 90 in a 60 and getting out storming back with "what the **** do you want?" will not normally start things off smoothly but it happens reasonably regularly!

No copper in Australia (unless they were in the USA first) has "sworn to serve and protect"... more along the lines of "uphold the law" and is SA our motto is "the safety of the people is the highest law",(Salus populi suprema lex) Im sure this is similar to that all across australia.

As for the "us" and "them", this is not a deliberate thing and I think you will find isnt as prevelant as you think...

In all this Im not saying all cops are perfect or great, there are some shockers, rude ignorant, full of themselves out there....but they are in the minority by far and usually it is worn out of them over time (if they last).


Summing it up.... I dont pigeon hole people by their looks or by their occupation... BUT I will judge someone pretty quickly by their attitude and manner. Everyone starts on one level where it goes from there is really up to them.

I leave for work each shift knowing that it could all go to crap. But I dont look forward to the chance of getting assaulted.. That said, I understand why some think it should be an equal offence to anyone else. I dont at anytime understand why a firie or an ambo, nurse or doctor shouldnt be better protected by law... should they expect to be or accept being assaulted for doing their job?

The idea of heavier penalties is similar to that used in the USA, it is supposed to make those who take the brief second to think about what they are doing, stop as it isnt worth it... if that works here I dont know but allegedly it is working in the USA...

As an aside, to all those working in whatever field over new years eve etc, have a good safe and quiet new years and a great 2014!

[Mick_Marsh]

For police to tell you she would have shot you, she must have thought that someone was at risk of death or serious harm. What was the situation?

Happy Days.
Bent numberplate. It's got a few dings in it from when people with tow bars reverse park into me.
I am often pulled over for a licence check. There are some weird coppers out there but some are quite nice and I spend a bit of time chatting with them.
This one, however, was very strange. My mother was with me at the time and thought the police woman had issues. I'll be posting up a more detailed account in another thread later.

[digger]

Bent numberplate. It's got a few dings in it from when people with tow bars reverse park into me.
I am often pulled over for a licence check. There are some weird coppers out there but some are quite nice and I spend a bit of time chatting with them.
This one, however, was very strange. My mother was with me at the time and thought the police woman had issues. I'll be posting up a more detailed account in another thread later.

That is someone who needs help, a chat to the station sgt would be well in order... or if you so feel a Police complaint

[Treads]

Sorry to hear you think I am less deserving of justice.

huh?

[Treads]

Nah that's where cops get there college training. They dont become real police until a few years on the job. Part of the problem is they dont realise this UNTIL a few years on the job and no end of telling them will they believe it. Most think they leave college as police. There is good reason why NSW have there probationary constables sitting in the back seat for the first 12 months.

Happy Days

NSW is about the only state that does have 'university' educated police (they still do many months at Goulburn). Most are academy trained; but don't let the facts get in the way of a nice story :wacko:

[Mick_Marsh]

huh?

So our last poster doesn't believe Ambos and Nurses should be supported with harsher penalties dished out when they get assaulted on the job?
I assume you do.
This assumption prompted

Sorry to hear you think I am less deserving of justice.


Careful, when you think you are more entitled than someone else, you lose all entitlement to respect.

[Treads]

Where have I said that anyone is less deserving of justice?

Justice is very different to deterrent.

What I have said is that the protectors (ie the one's who run toward danger, not away from it), should be protected by additional penalty in the event that people assault them at work.

Additional protection for police? I'm not sure that's required - I'm yet to be assaulted on the job and actually lost the fight ;)

[Disco Muppet]

NSW is about the only state that does have 'university' educated police (they still do many months at Goulburn). Most are academy trained; but don't let the facts get in the way of a nice story :wacko:

^This.

My course parallels the NSW policing course, meaning I'll have most of the educational requirements to apply to join the NSW police, so it's still an option for me if I so decide, which I haven't yet.
The course isn't rocket science, but it's not a walk in the park either, and 99% of the people I've met through the course I'm certain will be upstanding, honest, and competent police officers.
Part of our coursework requires a fair whack of community service, and we're also instructed by serving NSW police officers, all before you even know if you're going to Golbourn.
None of the people I know walk around fluffing their own feathers with the "I'm practically a police officer" line. I know more Med students who are like this than anyone else.
And yes, as mentioned, no cop has had a gun pointed at their head and been told to wear the blues, which means they're electing to do so of their own free will, in the case of a job where you're scraping up the deceased, the drunk and disorderly, and the downright dangerous off the sole of societies shoe is a pretty big deal and commands a level of respect.

[Mick_Marsh]

Where have I said that anyone is less deserving of justice?

Justice is very different to deterrent.

What I have said is that the protectors (ie the one's who run toward danger, not away from it), should be protected by additional penalty in the event that people assault them at work.

Additional protection for police? I'm not sure that's required - I'm yet to be assaulted on the job and actually lost the fight ;)
Assault is a crime (I don't need to tell you that).
Should a person assaulting me be punished any less severe than a person assaulting you? You seem to think so.
That sort of attitude does not deserve my respect.
So a different law applies to you that applies to me? Be careful where that slippery slope leads.

[jimr1]

This has been an interesting post to say the least , I've made my point about assault , I would like to mention respect , Some time ago I was pulled over because my rego stick was not showing , It had pealed off ,but was on the dash , I was told by the officer , that will be $50 for waisting my time . Now I see you will no longer have to display your rego sticker . The Law works in mysterious ways ..

[Mick_Marsh]

This has been an interesting post to say the least , I've made my point about assault , I would like to mention respect , Some time ago I was pulled over because my rego stick was not showing , It had pealed off ,but was on the dash , I was told by the officer , that will be $50 for waisting my time . Now I see you will no longer have to display your rego sticker . The Law works in mysterious ways ..
Isn't it obvious? Before January 2014, not having a rego sticker was a serious safety issue. Obviously that safety issue no longer exists.

[sheerluck]

Isn't it obvious? Before January 2014, not having a rego sticker was a serious safety issue. Obviously that safety issue no longer exists.

To be fair though Mick, the police are only the enforcers of laws, whether they like the law or not. It's the politicians and bureaucrats that make the laws that you should be directing your post at.

That said, there is probably an appropriate way of enforcing a law that doesn't make you feel like an axe murderer. :angel:

[Mick_Marsh]

To be fair though Mick, the police are only the enforcers of laws, whether they like the law or not. It's the politicians and bureaucrats that make the laws that you should be directing your post at.
Oh, yes, I realise that. I do not blame the police for that little gem and didn't realise I blamed them.
I have the utmost respect for police until individuals display to me they made a poor career choice.
There are quite a few police on this forum and I would hope they pull me over for a license and registration check soon. Judging by the frequency I get pulled over, that will be real soon.

[d2dave]

Judging by the frequency I get pulled over, that will be real soon.

Mick what do you drive that attracts so much attention? Apart from RBT's and when I have actually been doing some thing wrong, I have not been pulled up for years.

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick what do you drive that attracts so much attention? Apart from RBT's and when I have actually been doing some thing wrong, I have not been pulled up for years.
It's the car. A hoon car of choice and a rather distinctive one at that.
VR Commodore. The best car I have had.
Mr Plod pulls me over expecting to give a young lad a lesson. You see them stop in their tracks when they see a grumpy old fart get out. Not what they expected. Quite funny to watch really.
What is not taught, in todays world, stereotypes do not work.

Ask me one day and I'll tell you about a group of women, a convicted rapist and me.

[dullbird]

dont they need a reason to pull your over if its not an official RBT?

[d2dave]

dont they need a reason to pull your over if its not an official RBT?

Lou, I think you are correct here, in Vic any way.

There was a case recently where this came up.

Can't say I agree with it though. There has been many a case where it has just been a random check for no reason and they have busted a big drug or fire arms courier/dealer.

[MBZ460]

I wonder how much of today's violence and general anti-social behavior is because of the change in liquor licensing laws. At the benefit of licensees and tax revenue.

Pubs used to shut at 11:00pm. I remember punch-ups when that was the closing time but not like that which is being seen so regularly today, tying up so much police resource in alcohol fuelled conflict, etc..

Regulatations are always being challanged and changed for commercial benefit over community values. And its seemingly impossible to go back.

[digger]

dont they need a reason to pull your over if its not an official RBT?

In SA we have MDSTs, (mobile driver screening tests) this means anytime without reason you can be stopped for RBT or random drug swipe.

[Mick_Marsh]

I wonder how much of today's violence and general anti-social behavior is because of the change in liquor licensing laws. At the benefit of licensees and tax revenue.

Pubs used to shut at 11:00pm. I remember punch-ups when that was the closing time but not like that which is being seen so regularly today, tying up so much police resource in alcohol fuelled conflict, etc..

Regulatations are always being challanged and changed for commercial benefit over community values. And its seemingly impossible to go back.
Totally agree with you there.
The only safe time to walk down King Street in Melbourne is when the clubs are closed.

[Treads]

Where have I said that anyone is less deserving of justice?

Justice is very different to deterrent.

What I have said is that the protectors (ie the one's who run toward danger, not away from it), should be protected by additional penalty in the event that people assault them at work.

Additional protection for police? I'm not sure that's required - I'm yet to be assaulted on the job and actually lost the fight ;)


Assault is a crime (I don't need to tell you that).
Should a person assaulting me be punished any less severe than a person assaulting you? You seem to think so.
That sort of attitude does not deserve my respect.
So a different law applies to you that applies to me? Be careful where that slippery slope leads.

Perhaps lay off the bottle for a bit. Where in my post did I say that police should be better protected?

You're behind the 8 ball anyway, as there are already specific charges for resist/hinder/assault police (summary) and assault police (indictable). Before you get all bent out of shape about all this you probably should check it out:
Assault/Hinder/Resist (SOA) - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/soa1966189/s52.html
Assault Police (CA) - http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s31.html

[Treads]

dont they need a reason to pull your over if its not an official RBT?


Lou, I think you are correct here, in Vic any way.

There was a case recently where this came up.

Can't say I agree with it though. There has been many a case where it has just been a random check for no reason and they have busted a big drug or fire arms courier/dealer.

Yes we need a reason to pull you over here in Victoria - That reason can be as simple as "you are driving or in charge of a motor vehicle on a highway" (look up the definitions of those words ;) )

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes we need a reason to pull you over here in Victoria - That reason can be as simple as "you are driving or in charge of a motor vehicle on a highway" (look up the definitions of those words ;) )
The one most used with me is "Registration and license check."
With me, the example you have given is not used often.

[Treads]

The one most used with me is "Registration and license check."
With me, the example you have given is not used often.

I was being facetious Mick - we don't need a reason to pull you over. If you are in charge of a motor vehicle on a highway you can be stopped at any time for no reason.

[Mick_Marsh]

I was being facetious Mick - we don't need a reason to pull you over. If you are in charge of a motor vehicle on a highway you can be stopped at any time for no reason.
Funnily, the reason you gave has been given to me. Maybe they'd run out of reasons for the day.
I realise the police do not need a reason to stop a car. That does not worry me. It's the profiling I disagree with. I also have a problem when the police have "attitude" and "issues". Perhaps they should have stayed home in bed that day.

[Treads]

Funnily, the reason you gave has been given to me. Maybe they'd run out of reasons for the day.
I realise the police do not need a reason to stop a car. That does not worry me. It's the profiling I disagree with.

I would have thought you'd be safe in your VR? All the local hoons here have VY's :p


I also have a problem when the police have "attitude" and "issues". Perhaps they should have stayed home in bed that day.

Very true in some cases

[mudmouse]

I realise the police do not need a reason to stop a car.

Police do need a reason to stop someone. The Random in RBT is supposed to be just that. The Breath Test is also just that. So, once that reason has been executed, and unless there's another 'reason' to make further enquiries, such as an expired licence, rego etc, then you're on your way.

This 'stopping someone for a fishing expedition to see what we can find' is just rubbish, pathetic Policing. You can't be stopped to have your licence checked or some other crap, it must be for a reason - justification. If there's no reason and a crime is detected and the person prosecuted - and a matter is defended, then where is the justification for stopping and detaining someone?? Ain't there = false arrest = costs awarded = Police look foolish = community support diminishes.... Thanks very much.

If you can't do it right, don't do it (young fella) - that's what I say to the 'young' fellas.


Matt.

[Mick_Marsh]

I would have thought you'd be safe in your VR? All the local hoons here have VY's :p
Same where I live. I think the local constabulary realise this as they never stop me.
Perhaps those out on the highways need their training programmes updated.

I around in constant fear of being pulled over, the copper taking a disliking to me and making my life hard. This has happened to me only twice. The first time a local copper wanted to teach me a lesson. I had one nothing wrong. I was lucky as that copper put a young upstanding respected citizen of the town in hospital. After many complaints in his short stay in the town, he was moved on.
Another time, a copper took a disliking to me. He declared my car was unregistered (the rego label was there but not stamped) and I had to leave it where it sat. Had to recover the vehicle later with much inconvenience. The next day I rang Vicroads. The car was registered according to them. I bought a receipt from Vicroads and sent it in to Snr. Sgt. Richie at the traffic infringements branch. He replied with a letter stating "We will not be perusing this matter any further."
I was told I had no recourse.
The latest incident wasn't going well and was beginning to turn ugly, when my 76yo mother got out the car and wanted to know what was going on, the police woman said "I stopped you because you had a bent number plate." and got back in her car. I was followed for quite some kilometres which gave me the impression she was itching for another go but "caught on camera".
In my industry there are incompetent people with attitudes. I can only assume it's the same in any industry incluing the civil compliance industry.

[Treads]

Thoughts are with my Melbourne colleagues today :no2:




Police, firefighters injured in Middle Park explosion

Victoria DateJanuary 5, 2014 - 8:42AM


Read more: Police, firefighters injured in Middle Park explosion (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-firefighters-injured-in-middle-park-explosion-20140104-30bas.html#ixzz2pTGbltGl)

Three police officers remain in hospital after an explosion in Melbourne's south on Saturday night.
Two female officers are in a critical but stable condition and a male officer serious but stable after being injured in the blast.
Two Metropolitan Fire Brigade firefighters were also injured at the Middle Park residence.
A Victoria Police spokeswoman told Fairfax Media that emergency services were responding to report of man threatening suicide at an apartment on Hambleton Street at 9.15pm.
The firefighters entered the second-storey flat, followed by the police officers. A large explosion then occurred.
The police officers were taken to The Alfred hospital and the firefighters were taken to the Royal Melbourne. The man threatening suicide was also injured.

[wardy1]

Automatic 3 months behind bars and a $10k fine fr a first offence might make one or two think twice I think. Trouble is most of the perpetrators are either drug ****ed, drunk or both. It's not an excuse, but they'd all claim to be the victim.:twisted:

[DiscoMick]

Increasing penalties has limited value because people who act impulsively don't stop to think that they might get caught and weigh up the likely penalties. There are already major penalties available for assault. The issue is whether they're being applied appropriately.
More importantly, how do some people grow up thinking its OK to go around bashing other people? A change in attitude is the key here. However, history tells us we will always have some of these people with us, which is why we need people to enforce the standards society as a whole wants followed. Naming and shaming those who are proven to have behaved badly can also discourage others from copying their behaviour.
Also, personally, I think reducing opening hours in pubs, such as a return to an 11pm close, might reduce the amount of street violence in areas with a concentration of pubs. People who drink with meals in restaurants don't seem to behave as badly as those who just drink a lot in pubs.
There is also a theory that rich people get drunk at home behind closed doors while poorer people get drunk in public, but I'm not sure that is so true now since this country became one of the richest in the world. Even our poor are relatively affluent by world standards.


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[Trooper63]

I'm approaching 30yrs in the job, and in my opinion there have been some great comments here.

Firstly the vast majority of coppers are firstly members of the community, we have families, relations, clubs, hobbies, etc. We are just like each and every other member of our society to most extent.

There are always extremes of the middle ground, not only in society, but in every occupation. There are sales assistance, waiters, road workers, nurses who should have stayed at home instead of bringing their issues to work on any given day. I can't see "not being 100%" as being a plausible reason for a sick day. So unfortunately (or fortunately) I accept the fact that not everyone every day will be at their best.

On the original post, in regards penalties.....

I actually agree that we all get the same penalty regardless of occupation given each set of circumstances. Can I highlight that every case I've seen of a police officer being disciplined either in courts or by the department, the penalty is always higher than a member of the public would expect. SO, IF the public expect police to be dealt higher penalties when they break the rules, THEN those that assault police should get higher penalties also. ;)

We are either equal as members of society, or we aren't.

Lastly, Evolution has a lot to do with what is happening in society..... People are a lot less likely to speak up when a kid is misbehaving. Parents don't set rules, or give their siblings guidance as much as they used too (and I'm not going anywhere near the hitting debate, let's leave that right alone).

As members of the community we need to be vocal on what is acceptable. A lot of younger people don't have the luxury of a guided upbringing. Community needs to be supportive.

"The standard you see and say nothing, is the standard you accept!"

[Ausfree]

I think the police by the very nature of their job, place themselves in dangerous situations more than a general member of the public would. It is generally accepted as being part of the job, I for one would not like to pull a hoon over on a dark road and walk up to his car to have a "chat" not knowing what to expect.

Constable David Rixon who was killed at Tamworth recently was just doing his job when he pulled a lunatic over who subsequently killed him. I believe constable Rixon even managed to handcuff his killer before he collapsed. Now that's a dedicated police officer.

So should the penalities be heavier for killing a police officer or emergency services people for just doing their job????
I understand what posters such as Mick Marsh say but I think the answer should be, yes. Sure, cops have bad days like everyone else, I have been pulled over for breath tests and the like and some cops talk to you quite civily and a couple I have come across have talked to me like a pig. This upsets me because I have not broken any law.

The thin blue line is a civilised society's last line of defence against anarchy.

Anyrate, that's my 2c worth and I for one wouldn't like their job dealing with the dregs of society, must make you feel bitter and twisted after 30 years of it.