TD5 oil pump failures

[MylesC]

G'day All

If you own a Disco or Defender with a TD5 motor you might like to check the following link and consider some pre-emptive action to manage the risks associated with a failure.

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthread.../ubbthreads.php (http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php)

Check under the Discovery Forum.

[incisor]

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bigbugga]

Originally posted by incisor
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!

What he said.

But I note the mechanic only said MAYBE the engine is damaged because of the oil pump failing :?

[crawfy]

Just happened to a mate of mine in Albury, not pretty!!!!!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[Moses]

I'm almost due for my end of warranty service on my TD5. Holy snappin' aligator shoes! You sure know how to put the wind up a bloke! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

Even though my TD5 has done almost 100,000 kays in 2.5 years, it has been running beautifully. I did have a radiator leak but that is another story and has nothing to do with the engine as such. (Yes, yes, I know it keeps the engine temp in check...!)

I might have to make a mention of this problem when I get it serviced in the next few weeks, so it is at least documented "in the warrany period" to provide me with some ammo should I need it. This is most certainly bad news. I wonder how LR Australia would approach this situation?

The thing is though, if the pump fails and the warning light comes on, if you kill the engine quick smart it is very unlikely that any engine damage will have been sustained. Also, I wonder if the teflon treatments like Slick 50 and the Nulon range will help to stop damage caused by no oil pressure. Many years ago I used to sell Slick 50 and one of our demonstrations was to have a Slick 50 treated Briggs & Stratton engine running without oil for the entire duration of any demonstration. That motor ran for quite a few years without a single drop of oil in it and was still running when I stopped selling the stuff. (I'm not a salesman and selling didn't appeal to me)

I treated my XD Falcon I owned at the time with marked improvements in fuel economy and smoother running. I wonder if the stuff is still on the market?

[MylesC]

Having raised the issue I'll tell what I am doing. I need a new sump gasket (who doesn't - after all it is a Land Rover) and while that is being done, the suspect bolt will be removed and re-Loctited with the new and improved oil resistant Loctite 243. Can't afford the replacement bolt - it costs around $1300 and comes with a free oil pump! Another interesting "repair strategy" from LR! Apparently the bolt comes separately in the UK and is supplied with the appropriate Loctite pre-applied. The work will be done by a LR dealer and will take around 4.5 hours, 4 for the sump gasket replacement and .5 for work on the oil pump. Not inexpensive but a far cry from the cost of a replacement motor.

[Moses]

Myles, Let us know some part numbers when you can. :roll:

Does anyone have a TD5 workshop manual? Can we get a picture of the suspect bolt up here on the site?

I couldn't sleep last night worrying about this!! :cry:

Crawfy, can we get some more details from your mate in Albury? I'd like to know what sort of kays he has clocked up. :?

[MylesC]

Check the following link for a look at the offending bolt.

http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthread...=0&fpart=3&vc=1 (http://www.lrenthusiastforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB9&Number=228029&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=3&vc=1)

I don't have a part number to help you with, only the diagram in MartinL's posting at the above link. The pump can only be accessed by dropping the sump pan which is not a small job apparently. Fiddly more than anything from what I can gather.

[one_iota]

A mate of mine is taking his 2000 Td5 Disco (150k) in to Graeme Coopers for a service on Friday and this subject will be raised. I will keep you posted.

[landrovermick]

Guys there are photos of the offending bolts etc here as well as a document for those who may have had the misfortune....

http://www.amanet.co.uk/td5oilpumpfailure.htm

Ya know this looks like something that may be avoided - Ie check the loctite ...... let your service agent know - take the pics in and show them...

regards

mick

[crawfy]

style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif 125,000klm and one knackered Td5, there was no locktite on bolt's, Idon't know to much else at this stage, I'm not sure what's happening, the vehicle is somewhere in Melbourne getting looked at.
If I hear anything I'll let you all know!! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad.gif

[MylesC]

You can all tell me I am clueless, but the design of the oil pump drive on the TD5 seems fundamentally flawed. It is surely designed to have the odd failure or three. A torqued bolt (supposedly with thread lock applied) holding a sprocket to a shaft in a hostile mechanical environment (hot,vibrating, high revving, oil infested) does not seem like sound mechanical engineering design to this mere mortal! Particularly when it is a critical link in the satifactory performance and longevity of the motor. Match this with the assembly steps and associated gremlins now becoming evident and you have a sure recipe for a few costly disasters. The marginal addtitional cost involved at manufacture of an integrated sprocket and shaft drive for the pump seems low when compared with the unplanned negatives which should surely have been considered by a competent design team. Match the initial savings of using a bolt and a sprocket from the existing parts bin against the damage the current episode is doing to LR public relations and customer confidence and it seems the designers made a wrong call. A very wrong call at that!

[Larns]

I agree
Me thinks that it would have been alot smarter to install a bolt with a left
hand thread!
Bad engineering on LR behalf.

Cheers Larns

[crawfy]

Look I agree that Lr are a bit lax in some of there engine design feature's but so are Chrysler ( JEEP ) had one cost me a packet never again!!!!, Mitsibitchi don't get me started we had a Magna, the valve stem seals went at 75,000klm the torque converter at 95,000 klm, a Toyota Hilux which for some unknown reason kept warping the head!!! Replaced twice under warranty then they clamped up saying it was driver error!!!!!!
So my point being every vehicle manufacturer has there own design problem's or you were just unlucky and bought a lemon!!!!! I believe Land Rover build an excellent product but like everything there are times when you just pick a lemon, I have mate with a Defender 130 TD5 with 198,000 on the clock and believe me this vehicle works hard!!!!! But the owner keeps up his 5,000klm service's, and I think this vehicle has another 100,000 in it 8)
So really let's not panic yet!!!! As a preventative check your oil pump bolts, if no locktite fix it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8)

[Moses]

I've been following the chatter on the English LR site and it seems the whole oil pump fiasco is losing momentum. At present there seems to only have been 6 cases of this problem in England that anyone seems to know about. I'm sure there are a few more cases worldwide but we need to consider just how many TD5 engines have been sold around the world and how many of these have failed. It becomes a very small percentage indeed. That's not to say I'm going to forget about it. I'm still going to mention this to my dealer when I get my 100,000Km service on Thursday.

I have to admit that, since the first heart stopping panic attack and in view of the newer information, I am sleeping a lot better now too! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

[MylesC]

My truck had its sump pan off yesterday for a check on THE bolt. Nothing had fallen apart. Bolt was removed and found to have sufficient threadlock to have stayed the distance. LR dealer reassembled "very carefullly" I am told with the appropriate glue. The truck has a 7/99 Australian compliance plate suggesting a manufacture of early 1999, say March or thereabouts. Interesting that the ones that have failed have shown no evidence of threadlock. The exercise was worth the comparatively small expence for the peace of mind I now have.

[Moses]

How many $ did they sting you for that little exercise?

[MylesC]

The sump gasket and oil pump portion of the bill was approximately $380. Dollars well spent for my peace of mind.

[Shifter]

Shame, shame, unfortunate and expensive though it may be, come on Land Rover if a bolt is tightened to to a correct torque or stretch is should never loosen, never mind the use of artifical compounds like loctite. When Noah was a boy he did not have such compounds, but he did have a feel for tension on bolts and might have even had a rudementary torque wrench.

This is definately an LR problem, they must have a duty of care to ensure that their engiens are bolted up corectly. Loose bolts, no way, if tightend correctly no problem!!

Shifter.

[fabfour]

Hi, we have a 2001 Landrover Discovery TD5 which has suddenly caused us some problems. Fuel (LOTS!) suddenly started to spray out of the car en route to work and my car had to be towed to the repairers.
The bolt on the oil pump had come loose, resulting in no oil pressure. The car now makes a horrible noise when running and blows smoke (we can’t drive it). The mechanic reported metal filings in the sump oil. He advises us to ditch the car asap or to replace the engine.
My gripe is that our car is 6 years old - we bought it new and have maintained it well. We haven't even taken it off road yet! When I rang Landrover they did not want to know about it. I asked if anyone else had reported a similar problem, as surely this would not be a common occurrence in a car with only 137,000km on it? I was told that they did not record that sort of data. Basically the lady at the other end of the phone said the car is out of warranty, it wasn't their problem, and why was I telling her about it?

I have gone online in an attempt to understand what has happened and am reading about the exact same problem in models from '98, '99' 2000 and 2001. Apparently the bolt failure causes no oil pressure which in turn causes the engine to seize. To top it off, it could be prevented by replacing the faulty bolt and fixing the replacement on properly with loc-tight (which articles indicate may not have been done originally and is the cause of the problem), which would have saved us the drama and expense of now possibly having to get a new engine in our car. Regular servicing hasn't prevented the problem as apparently (I have read) that this all happens on a non serviceable part.
Not happy! Has anyone else encountered this problem and did they find Landrover more helpful? Surely they must have more to say than 'bad luck', especially since they must be aware of the potential problem? Today I have read of the same problems being addressed in South Africa and the UK – and I have only being reading for a few hours!
Cheers, Pat.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

as you can see by the dates on the posts above,,
the problem has been around for some time.

There have been a few people lose their engines due to this,,

but many more have prevented this by getting the item checked, and fixed. (not ALL have needed retightening)

It is interesting how its a recall in other countries---


has anybody mentioned the "oil in the loom" problem to you?

[George130]

I checked mine for fear but my bolt was ok. I have an oil pressure gauge and check regularly.

[CowsGoMoo]

I've had mine checked. All was ok.... :)
Worth getting checked if you haven't already done it IMO.

[wally]

This happened to my '99 Disco with 140000km on it. The engine was destroyed. No, Land Rover did not want to know me. It is very, very expensive and no fun at all. Get it checked. Don't delay. To those who say there are thousands of Td5s getting around and it's only happened to a small percentage, I think you need to take off your Land Rover enthusiast's hat and admit that this is an unforgivable manufacturing fault that is far, far more prevalent that it should be. Do a search on this on the net and on other forums and you'll find there have been many casualties. Land Rover deserves to lose customers over this.

[fabfour]

Thanks for the replies.
We never imagined a problem like this could occur, no one warned us about it. Funnily enough now that it has happened we are hearing that there have been problems with this bolt before.
Like I stated we have taken good care of our car and had it serviced regularly and never really a problem until it suddenly started to spew out fuel. What gets me is that Landrover must have been aware of the potential problem, and if they had made it known we would have had the bolt checked immediately. They must have been aware of the problem when they sold us 'a reliable workhorse' 6 years ago. It would be different if it was a new problem - 6 years from this car is not long enough, but you would have to lump it as these things do happen.
We chose a Landrover for their reputation, to have a car that would be with us as our family grew up. I am afraid that after this (not warning consumers about the potential problem before it blew out our engine, and then being so unhelpful when we rang looking for answers as to what may be wrong with our vehicle) means that I could not recommend this make of car to anyone, which is a real pity.
What happened to quality control anyway? Or customer service – even after a warraty expires. I had to find out what has happened to our car on the internet rather directly from customer service, who must have been having quite a relapse in memory when they said they was unaware of any car with similar problems, and that they did not keep data on that sort of thing anyway. Please?! Or am I still existing in a previous century?
Sorry for the tirade, but the more I read, the more senseless the damage to our engine seems, when it may have been prevented with a little bit more communication.
Cheers to all, Pat.

[strange_rover1]

We had ours checked as well, cost $270 bucks. Oil drained, sump off, bolt out and refitted correctly, sump on and our original oil put back in. The oil was recently new hence re-using it. If I had known of the problem when we had it serviced I would have just had it checked then. Still was a cheap security blanket.
Shano

[wally]

Thanks for the replies.
We never imagined a problem like this could occur, no one warned us about it. Funnily enough now that it has happened we are hearing that there have been problems with this bolt before.
Like I stated we have taken good care of our car and had it serviced regularly and never really a problem until it suddenly started to spew out fuel. What gets me is that Landrover must have been aware of the potential problem, and if they had made it known we would have had the bolt checked immediately. They must have been aware of the problem when they sold us 'a reliable workhorse' 6 years ago. It would be different if it was a new problem - 6 years from this car is not long enough, but you would have to lump it as these things do happen.
We chose a Landrover for their reputation, to have a car that would be with us as our family grew up. I am afraid that after this (not warning consumers about the potential problem before it blew out our engine, and then being so unhelpful when we rang looking for answers as to what may be wrong with our vehicle) means that I could not recommend this make of car to anyone, which is a real pity.
What happened to quality control anyway? Or customer service – even after a warraty expires. I had to find out what has happened to our car on the internet rather directly from customer service, who must have been having quite a relapse in memory when they said they was unaware of any car with similar problems, and that they did not keep data on that sort of thing anyway. Please?! Or am I still existing in a previous century?
Sorry for the tirade, but the more I read, the more senseless the damage to our engine seems, when it may have been prevented with a little bit more communication.
Cheers to all, Pat.

I understand your pain and agree with everything you've said. We bought our Disco secondhand and chose it because it had obviously been well cared for and had an impeccable service history. Nine weeks later the engine had to be thrown away. The problem is well known to Land Rover, but if you're out of warranty, you're out of luck. They just don't care.

[Graeme]

I do my own servicing and replaced the bolt in mine. But was glad to hear, for other owners' sakes, that my local dealers have been replacing the bolt at the 1st service of any TD5 vehicle that they haven't already changed the bolt. At least they are trying to prevent such disasters.

[Redback]

Hi, we have a 2001 Landrover Discovery TD5 which has suddenly caused us some problems. Fuel (LOTS!) suddenly started to spray out of the car en route to work and my car had to be towed to the repairers.
The bolt on the oil pump had come loose, resulting in no oil pressure. The car now makes a horrible noise when running and blows smoke (we can’t drive it). The mechanic reported metal filings in the sump oil. He advises us to ditch the car asap or to replace the engine.
My gripe is that our car is 6 years old - we bought it new and have maintained it well. We haven't even taken it off road yet! When I rang Landrover they did not want to know about it. I asked if anyone else had reported a similar problem, as surely this would not be a common occurrence in a car with only 137,000km on it? I was told that they did not record that sort of data. Basically the lady at the other end of the phone said the car is out of warranty, it wasn't their problem, and why was I telling her about it?

I have gone online in an attempt to understand what has happened and am reading about the exact same problem in models from '98, '99' 2000 and 2001. Apparently the bolt failure causes no oil pressure which in turn causes the engine to seize. To top it off, it could be prevented by replacing the faulty bolt and fixing the replacement on properly with loc-tight (which articles indicate may not have been done originally and is the cause of the problem), which would have saved us the drama and expense of now possibly having to get a new engine in our car. Regular servicing hasn't prevented the problem as apparently (I have read) that this all happens on a non serviceable part.
Not happy! Has anyone else encountered this problem and did they find Landrover more helpful? Surely they must have more to say than 'bad luck', especially since they must be aware of the potential problem? Today I have read of the same problems being addressed in South Africa and the UK – and I have only being reading for a few hours!
Cheers, Pat.

Yes it's known problem and has been for ages, there is even court action been taken out on LandRover in the UK.
The case doesn't look good for LandRover, and hopefully it will transfer to here once it's finished.

I had mine taken out to check (mine had locktite on it) i did mine for peice of mind.

Baz.

[MickS]

Below are 2 emails - 1 from LR AU and 1 from LR UK when mine went....

From the UK:


"Following our earlier conversation I can only confirm the following : Here in the UK this issue was brought to our attention via the media and we dealt with any customer who brought this to our attention which i am informed was a tiny amount in comparison. We looked at each case on an individual basis and helped each customer in a fair and equal manner.
I have asked all relevant departments and there was no other action taken.
Sorry probably not much joy to yourself but this is all I can tell you.
Kind regards"


From AU:


Thank you for your email to the Land Rover Customer Care Centre. Please accept my sincere apology for the delay in this email. I must have taken your email address down incorrectly as I had received an undelivered notification this morning.
As per our conversation, on the 19th January 2006 in relation to the above vehicle.
After investigating this matter with your local authorised Land Rover Retailer, XXXXX Land Rover, we understand that the Engine needs to be replaced in order to restore your vehicle to manufacturing specifications.
It is regrettable that this component has failed at this point in the vehicle's life and we offer our sincerest apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused. Unfortunately, it is not possible to predict an individual component's lifespan over any given period of time or kilometres travelled by the vehicle.
Land Rover Australia issued this vehicle with a 24 Months or 50,000 Kilometres (whichever occurs first) New Car Warranty on the 21st December 1999. This New Car Warranty was in place to protect the owner from any costs associated with defects in manufacture, within that timeframe. As such, this expired on the 21st December 2001.
We also understand that you purchased the vehicle from a private vendor, outside the New Car warranty period at circa 130,000 kilometres and as such, understood that no warranty applied to this vehicle.
It is with great regret, I inform you that due to your vehicle now being over four years outside the New Car Warranty, we are unable to accede to your request to offer a financial contribution towards restoring the vehicle to manufacturing specifications.
I would also like to offer my sincere apology in relation to the previous offer of goodwill being withdrawn. As I explained verbally yesterday, this had occurred due to a misunderstanding of the circumstances involved in your particular details.
We apologise for being unable to offer a more positive conclusion to this concern but please be assured this matter has been reviewed with all positive intent towards you as a highly valued Land Rover owner.
Should you wish to discuss this matter further then please don't hesitate to contact me on 1800 625 642, Monday to Friday, 8.30am to 6.00pm (EST)."

:Rolling:

[Rosco]

To assist any who may be in doubt or concerned. I checked with the stealer regarding my fender and was advised the defect was rectified at factory level sometime prior to July 2003. The bloke I spoke to didn't have the exact date, but informed me the VIN of my fender was not in the range containing the issue.

So a call to your friendly stealer may resolve whether action is necessary.

It's a bit like the old plastic head aligning pins issue and oil in the ECU loom, both of which were rectified some time back.

Cheers

[BigJon]

It's a bit like the old plastic head aligning pins issue and oil in the ECU loom, both of which were rectified some time back.

Cheers

Plastic dowels are not an issue that I am aware of.
Leaking injector looms are still an issue, as yet not proven to have been resolved.

[Rosco]

Plastic dowels are not an issue that I am aware of.
Leaking injector looms are still an issue, as yet not proven to have been resolved.

Well there ya go. Thanks cobber. Re the plastic dowels, I heard they were an issue way back. Even before I bought mine. I was speaking to a bloke on Saturday who has an early TD5 130. He had overheating problems which Austral couldn't fix. It ended up being the head moving and closing off some of the water jacket ports. Austral had to ring the UK who told them they knew of it and to ring a bloke in S.Africa who knew about it and the fix. So I have to beg to differ on that one. ;)
Plus ... if it wasn't an issue, why did they change to steel?

[BigJon]

Plus ... if it wasn't an issue, why did they change to steel?

A change is as good as a holiday...:D

Who am I to try to understand how the English mind works...:cool:

[George130]

It's a bit like the old plastic head aligning pins issue and oil in the ECU loom, both of which were rectified some time back.

Cheers


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

The wiring loom fix didn't work.
For the effort required to check I would just do it.

[Graeme]

A change is as good as a holiday...:D

Who am I to try to understand how the English mind works...:cool:
I heard that it was Ford who initiated the change to steel.
If the engine overheats with the plastic ones, the head can move and allow the valves to damage the bores.