98 110 violent front end shake - harmonic

[uninformed]

Hey all,

I was heading up to Toowoomba from the Gold Coast. At Plainland (just before the Home Hardware) I drove over a very small step down in road surface. Think something along the lines of a resurface and where they blend the new and existing. So quite a small step down straight across my lane. I was doing 95-100, maintaing speed (i.e. not braking, not decelerating or accelerating) Slight decline in road and nice straight road. This step down minor and considering the amount of road works, pot holes and defects from Ipswich to Toowomba, very minor.

Well the front end started an immediate shake that came through the steering wheel and nearly shook me to death. I mean I could feel my brain bouncing in my skull. Very, VERY disconcerting. This was so bad I could barely hold the wheel with both hands and try to keep some sort of line, which was for the shoulder and into a short turing lane. It did not stop until I got down to about 30km or less.

I pulled up in this side road and looked over the vehicle. I am surprised it did not tear the 110 apart it was that bad. Everything seemed ok???

I have had similar happen once before, at 80km/h on the end of Bermuda St about to go onto the MWY at Burleigh. I was on a slight up hill, left hand bend and decelerating. I put it down to a fluke in combination with the crappy concrete road surface that puts my 110 into a pitchy harmonic of front and rear suspension.

This time was worse and pretty ok road all things considered.

I had just done a tyre rotation.

A month ago, I overhauled the front axle: new wheel bearings, swivel bearings etc.

Last week I had my mate check the wheel alignment: Castor is at -0.5 degree. each side is within 0.25 degree of each other. Toe was spot on according to him.

New OEM steering box in the last 12 months with new panhard bushes. I took care in getting all things correct as per manual (steering box centred etc) It drove spot on.

I could possibly have a very small shimmy at 100km/h, but it is VERY small if it is there?

The steering, post event, is now trying to veer right, steering wheel seems off centre. Im guessing steering dampener???

Steering dampener is 5 years old or so, Bilstein.

Wheel bearings feel good. Hubs are not hot at all.

Drag link and track rod are Maxidrive.

What to look for...I do not want to die or kill someone!!!!

[blue_mini]

Haven't lost a wheel weight have you?

[uninformed]

Haven't lost a wheel weight have you?

It doesnt look like it. As soon as I can, Ill take it to my mate to check wheels for balance.

For reference, they are: LR 130 steel rims, with Goodyear MTR 235/85R16

[djam1]

Loose swivel pins??

[uninformed]

Loose swivel pins??

When I jacked the wheels up to check wheel bearings I would have thought that I felt it then if so???

[Jock The Rock]

Will be following this with interest

I had the same problem with my County when I brought it home from WA. 100km/h and bam it would start up, scared the bageezers out of me the first time. I found it was possible to accelerate out of it

When I stripped it all down for the rebuild I couldn't find anything obviously wrong with it.

My old man's 130 is now doing the same thing, I've been tasked to fix it.

Firstly I'm planning on a new set of tyres as the old ones are knackered, then tie rod ends and possibly tierod as the old one has been bent once or twice, wheel alignment, then steering damper, possibly front shockies if that doesn't fix it I'll get serious with it ;)

I remember once reading about this issue having something to do with a lack of swivel preload. His now has just over 200,000kms on it, so I'm thinking a strip down, CV clean and reshim of the swivel bearings may be in order

Will be good to hear other peoples experiences, and will keep you posted on how I go with my own repairs

[weeds]

If your steering wheel is off centre than you could have a bent steering arm

How are your radius arm bushes??

[djam1]

Serg
If they don't have sufficient preload then you wouldn't feel it because of the steering box and damper.
Don't want to send you on a wild goose chase but I found i could make my stage 1 better by pulling a shim or 2 out.

I originally said loose but I meant lack of preload





When I jacked the wheels up to check wheel bearings I would have thought that I felt it then if so???

[uninformed]

If your steering wheel is off centre than you could have a bent steering arm

How are your radius arm bushes??

Ill check in the am (do you mean link or the arm part of the case swivel housing?)

RA bushes should be ok, had new rubber at axle and Super Pro at chassis done about 2 years ago. what is the best way to check these?

[uninformed]

Serg
If they don't have sufficient preload then you wouldn't feel it because of the steering box and damper.
Don't want to send you on a wild goose chase but I found i could make my stage 1 better by pulling a shim or 2 out.

I originally said loose but I meant lack of preload

I can only go by what the WSM told me. New bearings are NSK, old ones were Timken (and seemed fine). I checked the preload with a trigger pull gauge (rifle) over and over and got a consistant reading in the mid range of LR specs. One side used exactly the same shim stack as previous, the other only needed a slight adjustment)

I can check again, it just means removing the: wheels, brakes, drag link and track bar (I think?)

[dullbird]

I dont know whether this would cause the issues but have you checked all your tie rod ends make sure any of them haven't seized?

I had a nasty wheel wobble issue in the disco at spot on 100k but mine was a combination of bushes, preload and shagged damper

[Bundalene]

We have had the same happen with slack in the panhard rod. Just every now and then we got the 'death wobbles'.

This was quite frustrating as we were on holidays in the NT at the time and I had 2 separate wheel alignments from different tyre joints and they didn't pick it up.

Once the bolts on the panhard rod were tightened (VERY tight) no further problems until we got back home and replaced the bushes as well.

BTW crook tie rod ends and worn / out of round tyres can display the same symptoms




Erich

[goingbush]

the alignment bloke does know they are supposed to have TOE OUT , right , not toe in like most tyre services set them at

sometimes even if you have good panhard bushes there will be some clearance between the bolt and the inner bush sleeve, wrapping a shim around the bolt will help (eg a strip of beer can )

[dero]

I am having the same problem at the moment , mine seems to be the panhard rod bushes , can't find one's locally that will last very long at all .

[Jock The Rock]

I can only go by what the WSM told me. New bearings are NSK, old ones were Timken (and seemed fine). I checked the preload with a trigger pull gauge (rifle) over and over and got a consistant reading in the mid range of LR specs. One side used exactly the same shim stack as previous, the other only needed a slight adjustment)

I can check again, it just means removing the: wheels, brakes, drag link and track bar (I think?)

Bear in mind Landrover specs are without seal, CV and any other associated components in place.

As copied from Workshop Manual

Check and adjust preload on bearings
NOTE: Swivel housing oil seal and axle
should not be fitted.
47. Attach a spring balance to ball joint bore and pull
balance to determine effort required to turn
swivel pin housing.
Resistance, once initial inertia has been
overcome, should be 1.16 to 1.46 kg. Adjust by
removing or adding shims to top swivel pin.
48. When setting is correct remove top swivel bolts,
apply Loctite 270 or equivalent. Refit bolts and
tighten to 78 Nm (58 lbf/ft), and bend over lock
tabs.

How much difference it makes I couldn't say, but guess it would make a diffence

[Quigley]

I had a 1983 Range Rover from new and did 750k kilometers in it. It developed this same alarming problem from time to time.
I found it to be a combination of things as front suspension items wore.
Steering damper
shock absorbers
radius arm bushes
panhard rod bushes
swivel axle bearings
ball joints
I found that the steering damper was always the worst contributing factor. I found either Koni or Bilstein to be the best replacement.
Steering dampers were deceptive in that they seemed effective through most of their travel, when in fact they act in a limited travel region for most of the time. (ie with the steering straight ahead) That area deteriorates and the damper is scrap while appearing to be okay through the rest of its travel.
It was always necessary to ensure that the rubbers of dampers and shock absorbers were in good condition and bushes of radius arms and panhard rod the same.
I would start looking to find your problem by purchasing and fitting a new Koni or Bilstein damper first. And then working through the other items in the order I've listed them. Those quality dampers are expensive. If a new damper doesn't solve the problem immediately, then keep it for a spare until it is needed, and work through the other items one at a time.
Very disconcerting problem and I hope you eliminate it quickly.

[camel_landy]

My money is on the pre-load on the swivels...

M

[JDNSW]

The steering damper will, at best, mask the underlying problem - it is intended to protect from large movements such as where one wheel hits a pothole rather than as a shimmy dampener.

It is very likely that there is not a single problem, but an accumulation of minor problems, including all the ones suggested above. In my experience, if you want to find a single cause it is most likely to be swivel preload (and note the comment about being measured without the seal), followed by panhard rod bushes, wheel balance, oversize tyres and tierod ends.

John

[Reads90]

Hey all,

I was heading up to Toowoomba from the Gold Coast. At Plainland (just before the Home Hardware) I drove over a very small step down in road surface. Think something along the lines of a resurface and where they blend the new and existing. So quite a small step down straight across my lane. I was doing 95-100, maintaing speed (i.e. not braking, not decelerating or accelerating) Slight decline in road and nice straight road. This step down minor and considering the amount of road works, pot holes and defects from Ipswich to Toowomba, very minor.

Well the front end started an immediate shake that came through the steering wheel and nearly shook me to death. I mean I could feel my brain bouncing in my skull. Very, VERY disconcerting. This was so bad I could barely hold the wheel with both hands and try to keep some sort of line, which was for the shoulder and into a short turing lane. It did not stop until I got down to about 30km or less.

I pulled up in this side road and looked over the vehicle. I am surprised it did not tear the 110 apart it was that bad. Everything seemed ok???

I have had similar happen once before, at 80km/h on the end of Bermuda St about to go onto the MWY at Burleigh. I was on a slight up hill, left hand bend and decelerating. I put it down to a fluke in combination with the crappy concrete road surface that puts my 110 into a pitchy harmonic of front and rear suspension.

This time was worse and pretty ok road all things considered.

I had just done a tyre rotation.

A month ago, I overhauled the front axle: new wheel bearings, swivel bearings etc.

Last week I had my mate check the wheel alignment: Castor is at -0.5 degree. each side is within 0.25 degree of each other. Toe was spot on according to him.

New OEM steering box in the last 12 months with new panhard bushes. I took care in getting all things correct as per manual (steering box centred etc) It drove spot on.

I could possibly have a very small shimmy at 100km/h, but it is VERY small if it is there?

The steering, post event, is now trying to veer right, steering wheel seems off centre. Im guessing steering dampener???

Steering dampener is 5 years old or so, Bilstein.

Wheel bearings feel good. Hubs are not hot at all.

Drag link and track rod are Maxidrive.

What to look for...I do not want to die or kill someone!!!!

In the uk we call it Death Wobble. And if you have had it happen then you know why it is called Death Wobble. Happens at speed when you got a hit a break in the road or seems on bridges.

Caused by the front swivel bearings

Take out the shims on the top pin of the swivel, until you have the right load on the swivel. this will work for the time being but need to replace the top and bottom bearings on the swivels.

[n plus one]

I am having the same problem at the moment , mine seems to be the panhard rod bushes , can't find one's locally that will last very long at all .

Yep, it's classic worn panhard bush behaviour. Loose swivels don't help either.

I'm about to try APT Fab bushes on mine.

[Brid]

I'd also look closely at the panhard bushes and pins. My experience of the "death wobble" feel seems to point more to a connection to the chassis than within the suspension, especially if there is nothing really obvious there.

I have found that the replacement new pins can be slightly under size, so make sure they are a tight fit with the bush and bracket. Even a small amount of play is unacceptable.

[wrinklearthur]

In the uk we call it Death Wobble. And if you have had it happen then you know why it is called Death Wobble. Happens at speed when you got a hit a break in the road or seems on bridges.

Caused by the front swivel bearings

Take out the shims on the top pin of the swivel, until you have the right load on the swivel. this will work for the time being but need to replace the top and bottom bearings on the swivels.

You are right, I have pulled the steering damper completely off and hasn't changed when the shimmy occurs at all.

Pulling the front balls down to get at the swivel pin bearings, I have found very slight marks in the cups where the rollers have been working, after washing the all grease out of the bearings so they completely dry of lubricant,
then rotating the bearing cone in the cup it's easy to feel the catch as the rollers pass over those marks.
.

[BigJon]

As others have said, the prime suspect has to be swivel pin preload.
It is also very easy to check the panhard rod bushes.
Lie under the front of the vehicle and get a helper to turn the steering from side to side. You will easily spot the movement from worn bushes.

[chopper]

Loose swivel pins??

+1,

[uninformed]

Hmmm, it seems that everyone is quick to jump on the swivel bearing or pre load of.

Just to refresh, these have been replaced with new NSK in the last month. Pre load was set, checked and re checked as per LR WSM.

The similar "wobble O Death" was experienced in the last 12 months, prior to the front end overhaul (prior to swivel bearing change) The previous bearings being Timken and having been re set 5 years ago.

Now Im not saying it isnt them, but surely the above would rule it out somewhat.

What about the fact that it now almost feels like the steering dampener is more extended or pushing more? I say this because if nothing has moved link wise, the only thing to push the wheels to the right which would also make the steering wheel off centre in that direction is the steering dampener.

Yes the steering wheel and wheels are in alignment. That has not changed. Just now, if left to do its own thing on flat straight road, it wants to veer right. It did not before AFAIK.

[JDNSW]

It is possible that when the swivel pin preload was set one of the bearings had some dirt behind it that has now compressed or been squezzed out - this could cause preload tobe lost quite quickly. Pulling to one side (if not tyre pressure or dragging brakes or wheel bearings) just about has to be an axle alignment problem, usually due to worn or damaged bushes somewhere. Note that it could be the rear axle location, not just the front.

John

[dullbird]

Why don't you just take the damper off and drive it to see if it wobbles...if your steering is set up right like you say you should easily be ale to drive without the damper.

It's also very easy to dismiss stuff because its NEW been caught in that trap before and ended up going back to that new component to find it was the issue all along, after spending unnecessary money.

[uninformed]

I had front wheels/tyres checked for balance. One was 40g out but not horrible.

Driving after this did not make any noticeable difference.

Yesterday I changed the panhard rod bushes with new Super Pro units. The Old ones(stock replacements only 6-8 months old) looked fine as far as I could tell (nice and concentric and no cracks or deformed rubber)

Driving after this has made very little to no noticeable difference.

Today I removed the steering damper. It was a little bit oily on the main body, but could easily be coming from my slight blow by leak. Holding the damper vertical, with main body upper most, I compressed the entire length of stoke and let release under its own forces. Nice smooth operation in both directions, when I was applying the pressure down on it, it was even all the way. No dead spots or hard spots.

Driving with it off made the steering a little lighter as would be expected. It made no difference over all to what Im feeling in driving. Yes bumps were a little more noted, but that would be normal without it.

I will keep going through the list of things as I can, these will included:

shocks, radius arm axle end bushes, front propshaft and swivels.

Im still perplexed as why the steering is now settling (on straight flat road) to the right? The steering wheel and the road wheels are in alignment with each other.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Is the steering box 'centered' so that it has a preferential location? I have heard that such a thing exists but not sure if Landy boxes are like that or not. But if so, it may explain the slight pull to right on straight, flat road-the drop arm may be a spline out.

[steveG]

I know it was suggested earlier, but didn't see a post saying you'd checked them - tie rod ends?
I recall years ago dad spent quite a bit of time chasing down a strange shimmy issue in his old HQ. Turned out to be the tie rod end was loose - not in the ball joint but in the thread. Locknut had been loose and it had worn/worked in the thread.

Also check the steering box and its support arm in case something is coming loose there. I'd think you'd notice it as slightly vague steering, but maybe not. Also the pitman arm and balljoint for play or loose on the spline (again I'd expect it to be vague), but maybe a possibility if the box was replaced 12m ago.

Steve

[scanfor]

Mine was caused by a dud shocky.

[Judo]

The steering wheel now being mis-aligned is what I would be focussing on. Something is clearly not right with that! It really sounds like when you hit a bump, something moved. I'd have to say, I'm leaning towards something like a tie rod or steering related.... not so much suspension.


Regarding swivels:

My swivel pre-loads were very loose a while ago and the symptoms weren't "death wobbles" but large amounts of feedback from uneven road surfaces. EG. Potholes. A pothole would flick the steering wheel around briefly. But once the wheels were back on similar surface, there was no death wobbles. I would say vague steering though.

However, when you set the swivel pre-loads, did you do it as per the WSM with the hub assembly removed? Or with the hub on and only the wheel removed? There was a thread/debate on this a while ago, but my view is the weight/force you are looking for in setting the pre-load is very different depending on whether you check with the hub assembly on. I did mine with everything bolted on, except the wheel and I went for about 6kgs of force on spring scales. Curious to know how you did yours?

[steane]

I had a very similar experience in the last fortnight. I've had a shimmy developing over the last few months and when I hit the highway this time it had turned into a constant shimmy (bit like out of balance tyres) from about 90-100kmh before smoothing out. Hit a mid corner bump of the right sort and the shimmy would turn into a death wobble only cured by slowing down.

Got to my destination and took it into the local tyre place. Once up on the hoist you could see the movement in the swivel hubs when working the wheel side to side. No movement top to bottom so the bearings were fine.

I removed three of the thinner shims on each side and it's pretty much fixed the issue, but I'll need to do it properly when I get home as it needs at least one more shim removed to be perfect and I need to check the pre-load.

These swivels had new everything (except housings) last year. They'd be lucky to have done 10,000 kms before they started to loosen up. When they were done they were rebuilt on the bench and set-up per LR specs with correct pre-load.

I suspect new housings might be needed at some point but I'll see how the re-adjustment goes.

My money is also on the swivel pre-load causing the issue described in this thread.

[schuy1]

after a minor washout incident with the 110 last year it developed the same thing. Just about drove me insane finding it. new swivel overhaul, shocks, bushes, balances, alinements, lots of swearing :D was still there. The last thing I looked at was the panhard bushes. They were brand new a week bfore the incident and still looked good, but I put new polys in just the same, and bugger me no more wobbles! :o so simple!
cheers Scott

[uninformed]

Steering box is only 6-8months old, brand new Adwest that came with pitman arm installed.

I followed the install procedure in the LR WSM, this included setting the steering box up to "centre". Once that was done, i installed the steering wheel in the straight ahead postion and aligned the wheels etc around that. The result was the best the car had been for years. Smooth, tracked great and steering wheel dead ahead for dead straight.

When I did the front end overhaul recently (new bearings through out etc) I set the pre load for the swivels as per LR WSM. That is, swivel ball and swivel housing mounted. No oil seals, no caliper, no hub etc. I used a trigger pull gauge (spring balance) to check the resistance as per LR specs and set it at the higher end as they were new bearings (NSK). The shim stack did not change on one side and only a tiny bit on the other. A mate told me all the good bearings are made to extremely close tollerances, in fact you should be able to get away with running a Timken cup in a NSK cone if same bearing part number.

I will still check the swivels for feel etc.

I checked my front prop shaft this arvo. Im not a certified prop shaft checker so could only just grab the unis and try and get movement in the joints etc. Seemed ok, maybe a little movement at the T/case end, but I think that is the T/case and not the D/C joint.

I dont think it the track rod or drag link. If the track rod has changed length that is only toe in or out. I cant see that causing the "going right" symptom. If the drag link changed length the wheels and steering wheel would be out of alignment. Both links are MD heavy duty so chances are they are still straight as the day they were sold.

What is the best way to check TREs?

[uninformed]

........Got to my destination and took it into the local tyre place. Once up on the hoist you could see the movement in the swivel hubs when working the wheel side to side. No movement top to bottom so the bearings were fine.....

Can you explain a little more in what you did on the hoist and what bits your saw move in which direction etc?

[Phil HH]

I once had a similar steering shake (actually it was more of a savage weave) in my RRC. Couldn't figure it until I got underneath and got my wife to turn the steering from side to side. There was a massive amount of play in the panhard rod bushes. I fitted new poly bushes and haven't had a problem since. However, I see that you have addressed this issue.

When your car tends to veer right, does the amount of throttle that you're giving it affect the amount of veer? If the REAR axle bushes are worn on one side, then rear axle steer can produce this symptom. I had a series 2a that did this occasionally - brake and you went one way, power on and you went the other.


Another thought is that the front and rear axles may not be parallel. This could be checked by carefully measuring the distance between wheels on each side.

[wrinklearthur]

Seeing you have tried all the obvious like the Panhard rod bushes, let's put the thinking cap on and look at the not so obvious also.

One likely cause that can set the shimmy going is a incorrect caster angle of the swivel pins, do you have a moderate lift? and then with softer then usual aftermarket bushes, the whole axle could be working within the flex of those bushes

Next is the trailing arm bushes and the centre pivot on the back axle, are they firm also in their fitting? any slight movement there will cause the rear axle tracking to vary.

Looking next at the tyres themselves, you can have them balanced nicely, but so can a square object, are the tyres true around their circumference?

Are the wheels seating properly on the hubs? check for run-out ( using a dial-gauge indicator is a good way to do this ), this test will also show up any faulty bearings and one's that may not be seated properly as well.

I wonder if "angular resistance to rolling" is the correct term for this?

Check the angular resistance to rolling, jack the front up and tie a builders line around one of the wheels, do about half a dozen lap's around the outside of the tyre, with the hand brake holding the transmission still and with both front wheels off the ground and free to turn, pull the string steadily feeling for any catch or resistance to wheels spinning ( do the wheels on both sides in turn to make doubly sure ).
Anything that shows up here could mean that there is a fault in something like the front diff carrier or that one of CV joints might be damaged.

If there is a crook tyre that has part of it's wall flexing differently as the tyre rolls, that would be a tricky one to determine. Swap all the wheels with a known good set off another vehicle and try both vehicles, does the problem then occur on the other vehicle?

There you go, another check list to do and good luck!
.

[steane]

Can you explain a little more in what you did on the hoist and what bits your saw move in which direction etc?

Grabbed the wheel at roughly 3 oclock and 9 oclock and put a bit of effort into rocking it from side to side. In my case you could hear a slight clonk and could see movement around the swivel joint. Bit hard to rock the wheel and take a look at the same time, but you will feel it anyway.

I also noticed that the steering in my Defender became lighter as the swivels loosened up, and firmed up again when I took some shims out.

[Chief]

I have had this problem on my 2008 110 Puma. Had the issue for a few months and took it into Melbourne Land Rover to check out as I have no idea. First time they couldn't fault it, I took it back two weeks later and their foreman took the car home for the night. As soon as he hit a bump in the road the fault appeared. The whole vehicle vibrates violently as had happended to me a number of times, especially on the freeway between 80-90Km/h.

I have the invoice of what they did and found......

- Removed steering damper, OK
- Alignment and Wheel blanace, Ok
- Checked all steering components for wear, Ok
And the final point
- Found panhard mounting bracket bolts loose. Retentioned all bolts, test driven and all ok. Advised to monitor for now.

This was done in early December and no issues so far.....

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[uninformed]

Managed to get the LH front shock out (Koni 80 series + 2inch) Stood it up and compressed it and extended it fully 3 times. Felt smooth and constant pressure both ways. Bushes looked a little hard, but not bad. I changed the top 2 but had to order the bottom 2 as at some point Koni changed the bottom pin from 12mm to 14mm...

[uninformed]

managed to get the axle end of RAs changed today and installed the Super Pro bushes I had in my cupboard. The OEM type bushes that came out looked ok and the crush tube concentric in the bush. Ill be doing a few KMs tomorrow so will get to see any differences.

I will be fitting new springs in about 3 weeks so will get the shocks out and give them a good going over along with new bushes.

One thing that may have hindered me during the setting of swivel bearing pre-load, I can not fit my CVs in after. I have to have them go in with the swivel housing. I remember having to hold/guide the CV stub shaft as I pulled the spring gauge on the swivel. It was a little awkward, but I did each side at least 10 pulls to make sure. Maybe it did or did not have an affect??

[isuzurover]

...


One thing that may have hindered me during the setting of swivel bearing pre-load, I can not fit my CVs in after. I have to have them go in with the swivel housing. I remember having to hold/guide the CV stub shaft as I pulled the spring gauge on the swivel. It was a little awkward, but I did each side at least 10 pulls to make sure. Maybe it did or did not have an affect??

What values did you set the preload to? With or without oil seal fitted?

Have you measures the wheelbase (hub centres) each side?

[DeeJay]

I have the exact problem, with all that you have done to fix it & more.
It was almost eliminated but came back with a vengeance when I swapped to a particular set of tyres that I'm trying to wear out.
I think I'll buy new tyres as the next tactic.
Really scary stuff though, I have to keep in the left lane !! One thing that is in the back of my mind is that the County did have a "minor" rollover as I bought it as a wreck, but it would be bad all the time if that were due to some mis alignment. Funnily it gives no trouble at all on 34" swampers.
Following this threads with interest

[wrinklearthur]

I have the exact problem, with all that you have done to fix it & more.
It was almost eliminated but came back with a vengeance when I swapped to a particular set of tyres that I'm trying to wear out.
I think I'll buy new tyres as the next tactic. ------ Funnily it gives no trouble at all on 34" swampers.


------ Looking next at the tyres themselves, you can have them balanced nicely, but so can a square object, are the tyres true around their circumference?

Are the wheels seating properly on the hubs? check for run-out ( using a dial-gauge indicator is a good way to do this ), --------- If there is a crook tyre that has part of it's wall flexing differently as the tyre rolls, that would be a tricky one to determine. Swap all the wheels with a known good set off another vehicle and try both vehicles, does the problem then occur on the other vehicle?

A variation in rolling radius of a size of tyre on a particular rim, could place the centre line of the tyre too close to where the swivel-pin axis line meets the road and that is probably why when changing wheels the problem seems to go away. To get around this one try your tyres on a rim with a different offset.

--------------------------------------------------------------

------- Have you measures the wheelbase (hub centres) each side?


------ but it would be bad all the time if that were due to some mis alignment.


------ the whole axle could be working within the flex of those bushes.
Next is the trailing arm bushes and the centre pivot on the back axle, are they firm also in their fitting? any slight movement there will cause the rear axle tracking to vary.

A bent outrigger can be a not so visible reason for misalignment. do as isuzurover has said and make a accurate measurement of the hub centres on both sides and I would go a step further with this by loading the axle housings to skew them.
Load the axles then measure the centres again and do this loading with equal pressure for both sides, the distance between the centres should be the same for both sides adding the crush or expansion of the bushes.

The camber of the road surface can cause the Land Rover to lean and that will load the axle bushes causing the axle housings to skew as well, try sitting the wheels on one side on a pair of concrete blocks, take your measurements then repeat for the other side.

If this measurement could be done on another same year / model vehicle and running similar tyres it would be interesting to compare.

I did advise someone in a thread on here some time ago, that he may had a misaligned chassis and to add a correction washer to where the trailing arm passes through the outrigger.
.

[uninformed]

What values did you set the preload to? With or without oil seal fitted?

Have you measures the wheelbase (hub centres) each side?

approx 1.4-1.5kg, seals not fitted. (as per WSM) That value was not what was required to get the swivel moving (that is higher), but once it was moving.

Not yet but will do.

[uninformed]

A variation in rolling radius of a size of tyre on a particular rim, could place the centre line of the tyre too close to where the swivel-pin axis line meets the road and that is probably why when changing wheels the problem seems to go away. To get around this one try your tyres on a rim with a different offset.

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A bent outrigger can be a not so visible reason for misalignment. do as isuzurover has said and make a accurate measurement of the hub centres on both sides and I would go a step further with this by loading the axle housings to skew them.
Load the axles then measure the centres again and do this loading with equal pressure for both sides, the distance between the centres should be the same for both sides adding the crush or expansion of the bushes.

The camber of the road surface can cause the Land Rover to lean and that will load the axle bushes causing the axle housings to skew as well, try sitting the wheels on one side on a pair of concrete blocks, take your measurements then repeat for the other side.

If this measurement could be done on another same year / model vehicle and running similar tyres it would be interesting to compare.

I did advise someone in a thread on here some time ago, that he may had a misaligned chassis and to add a correction washer to where the trailing arm passes through the outrigger.
.

certainly all possibilites, but seems all most like the magic bullet that shot JFK. i.e a long shot.

The reason I say this, I have owned this vehicle for 14 years, this is recent. I have had no crashes, impacts etc that would cause anything to bend IMO. The worst amount of force would be the death rattle itself.

SO with that in mind, I will continue to go through the basics first. I still have to check the swivels and a few other things.

Wont get a chance today, im off to Stanthorpe.

[uninformed]

Right hand shock absober seems good also. No signs of damage or bad bushes. Top bushes replaced. Bottoms will be done in a few weeks.

Jacked up each side and checked wheels for play (one at a time). No noticable play at all in either the vertical or horizontal planes. Any movement at the swivel resulted in the steering wheel moving. I figure if there was play in the TRE or swivel bearings it would be able to move some what before taking up the slack and moving linkage???

Wheels both spin about the same amount by hand. I.e. no difference in rolling resistance, not that I can tell anyway. I guess that can rule out a dragging brake?

Steering box and panhard mount bolts seem nice and tight.

No noticable play in the pitman arm to steering box.

Wheel base came in with in 1mm but steering was not exactly straigh ahead. Id say its pretty damn close.

Anyone want to guess how much a difference you would need in wheelbase to notice it on the road?

[rick130]

Wheel base came in with in 1mm but steering was not exactly straigh ahead. Id say its pretty damn close.

Anyone want to guess how much a difference you would need in wheelbase to notice it on the road?

That's amazingly close !

[uninformed]

I just backed the 110 out and drove in again, re aligning the front wheels as best I could.

This time it was 2mm out. But again on the same side. The RHS side being longer. Now my way of thinking is: If its the rear axle that is out the RHS is further back, thus making the rear steer to the right, pushing the front of the vehicle to the left. If it is the front that is out, the RHS is further forward, steering the vehicle to the left.

So either way, the small difference in wheelbase, does not seem to account for steering to the right....

[uninformed]

I had to go into the left side swivel to chase a oil leak (hub seal I think...my Achilles heel) any way, while I was there I took the opportunity to check the pre load on the swivel bearings. I checked before I stripped it right down and then reassembled without the cv to double check, both times came in good at about 1.3 kg

On final reassembly, I did how ever take a 0.1mm shim out just to allow for the RTV etc.

I have not checked the right side other than to grab the wheel/tyre while jacked up and all seems good. I can not rule it out, but it does not look like swivel bearings or pre load of them.

BTW what ever design engineer came up with that top swivel pin brake bracket needs a huge kick in the balls!

[PhilipA]

I have had the death wobbles twice in RRCs.
The first time was in Riyadh in an 81 where the mechanic at the dealer had done the LH swivel plate up finger tight and then fitted the lock plates.
The entire swivel plate was moving. It was so violent it blew the top shaft seal out of the steering box.

The second time took me years to find in my 92. It always had a "kick' when I hit a bump. I did all those things you list. Finally I rebuilt the RH swivel as it was the only thing not replaced, even though it didn't leak and had good preload.

The problem was that the assembler in the factory had "jacked" the swivel bearing cup when installing and it was not sitting square on its seat.

So in both my cases it was top swivel bearing related. Did you check that the cup "rang true" when you replaced them? The sound is distinctly different when they are fully seated. Have you rechecked that the bolts holding the swivel plates are tight , as they may have loosened if a cup was not fully home.

Regards Philip A

[jboot51]

notch the bracket out so you don't have to disconnect the brake line.

[uninformed]

I have had the death wobbles twice in RRCs.
The first time was in Riyadh in an 81 where the mechanic at the dealer had done the LH swivel plate up finger tight and then fitted the lock plates.
The entire swivel plate was moving. It was so violent it blew the top shaft seal out of the steering box.

The second time took me years to find in my 92. It always had a "kick' when I hit a bump. I did all those things you list. Finally I rebuilt the RH swivel as it was the only thing not replaced, even though it didn't leak and had good preload.

The problem was that the assembler in the factory had "jacked" the swivel bearing cup when installing and it was not sitting square on its seat.

So in both my cases it was top swivel bearing related. Did you check that the cup "rang true" when you replaced them? The sound is distinctly different when they are fully seated. Have you rechecked that the bolts holding the swivel plates are tight , as they may have loosened if a cup was not fully home.

Regards Philip A

Thanks Philip A,

I did not "ring" them, I have not heard of that before (and it wasnt in the WSM :D )

I did how ever visually check from inside the swivel ball when I was seating the cups, that they look flat all round and even. Having read here that when seating any cup with hammer rather than a press, it is easy for the cup to "bounce" on that last blow. Better to use light taps at the end, which I did.

I will not rule it out though.

I just removed the right wheel/tyre and track rod. Without removing the caliper and hub (due to LRs brilliant bracket design) I did check the whole assembly for feel. It felt good, not too loose. I also checked top swivel pin bolts, they are as tight as the day I torqued them up.

Earlier today I also removed the drag link and re centralised the steering box. Full lock to LH and then 2 full revolutions back to centre. The steering wheel was 1 spline out. I re fitted it in the new centre location. Took it for a drive and now it felt worse (of coarse) still pulling to the right and now steering wheel and road wheels out of alignment with each other. I then adjusted the drag link to bring the road wheels back in line with the steering wheel. Now back in alignment, but still wants to drift right if I let the steering wheel go. Maybe not quite as much as before, but certainly not more than 10-20% improvement...

[uninformed]

notch the bracket out so you don't have to disconnect the brake line.

shame LR did not think of that....seriously, who comes up with the idea of having to disconect brake lines (which means bleeding the brake system) to work on the whole swivel assembly, on top of which the rebuild procedure has you do up, then undo the swivel bolts to fit that stupid bracket..

I have drawn up new brackets in slightly thicker material witha little change so it wont be so weak as if I just slotted the LR one.

When I get these from the laser cutter, I will check the pre load on the right hand swivel...

[Judo]

shame LR did not think of that....seriously, who comes up with the idea of having to disconect brake lines (which means bleeding the brake system) to work on the whole swivel assembly, on top of which the rebuild procedure has you do up, then undo the swivel bolts to fit that stupid bracket..

I have drawn up new brackets in slightly thicker material witha little change so it wont be so weak as if I just slotted the LR one.

When I get these from the laser cutter, I will check the pre load on the right hand swivel...
Maybe I"m confused, but you realise the brake line comes off the bracket via a push on clip. You can then push the line out of the way to access the bolts on top. I've removed shims on top of my swivels, but never had to open up any break lines or bleed the breaks...

[uninformed]

Maybe I"m confused, but you realise the brake line comes off the bracket via a push on clip. You can then push the line out of the way to access the bolts on top. I've removed shims on top of my swivels, but never had to open up any break lines or bleed the breaks...

what vehicle are you talking about?

[Judo]

Well, Disco, but I thought everything on the TDI Defender hubs were the same as a TDI Disco? Maybe that's my confusion....

[isuzu110]

I thought everything on the TDI Defender hubs were the same as a TDI Disco?

FYI - TDI Defender hubs do not have a slotted bracket/plate for the brake hose. It's a common mod that when we do this job, many owners slot the plate to make the job easier next time so we don't need to re-bleed the brakes.

[Judo]

FYI - TDI Defender hubs do not have a slotted plate for the brake hose. It's a common mod that when we do this job, many owners slot the plate to make the job easier next time so we don't need to re-bleed the brakes.
Damn. Kindly ignore my posts then. I will search before posting one day... :angel:

Secondly, I haven't looked yet, but if my County has that stupid set-up, I will definitely be getting the angle grinder out. :twisted:

If you want the same LR clips, it seems they're pretty cheap...

Land rover Defender Genuine flexi brake hose clip x1 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-rover-Defender-Genuine-flexi-brake-hose-clip-x1-/261135756116?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3ccce76b54)

[uninformed]

The other little thing about the LR defender top swivel pin/brake bracket is the right angle piece is not just a fold, but a seperate little piece that is spot welded to the flat plate. It has a cut out around the head of the swivel pin bolt head, but means that your spanner etc looses 2mm of bolt head height in regards to engagement.

Nit Picky I know, but I dont like it.

I do not need the outer fold as I do not run brake sheilds up front.