ENGINE SYSTEMS FAULT

[CraigA]

If the internet is to be believed, "Engine Systems Fault" is a pretty common fault. It comes with a red warning light .. ie pull over and open your wallet.
In my case, I was towing my caravan (not covered under roadside assistance) and the car was trucked 100km away.

It took 15 minutes to fix. Apparently all that was needed was a software update that has been available for the last 3 years. So ... huge inconvenience, huge expense ... because LR couldn't be bothered issuing a recall or an update notice. Hmmmm. UNIMPRESSED.

So was the guy staying with me. He was about to buy a Disco. He's ordered a Prado.

[lpj]

Sounds frustrating. Where have you been getting it serviced?

I get mine serviced at MLR in Melbourne. They checked all that on my first service, but even if they hadn't, it always pays to ask just in case, especially if your planning a long trip towing or out of the way somewhere.

I'm sure you mate will be happy with his Prado- if he's into that sort of thing. I think they are ugly, and aren't anywhere near as comfortable or capable off road.

[Graeme]

because LR couldn't be bothered issuing a recall or an update notice. Hmmmm. UNIMPRESSED.I agree, LR has been very slack in not notifying owners of the potential fault, relying on dealers doing the right thing and update the vehicle's software at each service although that can sometimes not be soon enough. Its surprising that your vehicle has escaped updating for so long.

[willem]

If the internet is to be believed, "Engine Systems Fault" is a pretty common fault. It comes with a red warning light .. ie pull over and open your wallet.
In my case, I was towing my caravan (not covered under roadside assistance) and the car was trucked 100km away.

It took 15 minutes to fix. Apparently all that was needed was a software update that has been available for the last 3 years. So ... huge inconvenience, huge expense ... because LR couldn't be bothered issuing a recall or an update notice. Hmmmm. UNIMPRESSED.

So was the guy staying with me. He was about to buy a Disco. He's ordered a Prado.


All because of one issue, your mate has settled for a lesser car. And don't think Toyotas are immune to these sorts of problems. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Armitage_Shanks]

Are LR dealers obliged to install free of charge any and all software updates that LR issues?
ie; I know that my '05 RRS will need an update for a problem with the cornering lights (technical bulletin LS417-001 Cornering Lighting Feature Inoperative) and for the compressor replacement (tech bulletin LTB00420v2 I think). I will replace the compressor and the head light controller myself, but since I don't have an IID Tool or Nanocom I'll need to get the software updated by a dealer. And they'll charge for it, yes?

[Graeme]

Have you registered on Topix to check if any service campaigns are outsanding for your RRS?

[Armitage_Shanks]

Hi Graeme,
I have. That's where I got the technical service bulletin numbers from. I have "ABD023EX - Automatic transmission incorrectly manufactured" and "AB039V3EX - Left-Hand Front Brake Flexible Hose - Possible Foul Condition" listed. I am not sure if these recalls have been applied to my vehicle. Is there any way to check, or can that only be checked by a dealer like MLR?

Irrespective, I think the question here is, are LR dealers obliged to apply any and all software updates to a vehicle at service time? I suspect that they are not, unless the update is the subject of a recall notice.

[Armitage_Shanks]

Ah - I see in TOPIX on the right hand side...
Outstanding Campaigns:
There are currently no outstanding Field Service Actions for this vehicle

[Graeme]

Clicking on "owner" will show any outstanding campaigns but doesn't show what ones have been done but dealers can look at a vehicle's history. Work done on my D4 was visible to another dealer.

I've seen LR documentation that shows that dealers are to connect diagnostics to update vehicle software when serviced during the warranty period although I was also told by a particular now non-existant dealer that they only hooked-up diagnostics if chasing a complaint which means that the s/w would not get updated. I expect a dealer would charge for updating s/w (but not the updated s/w) if a vehicle is out of warranty unless performing recall work.

[jonesy63]

Irrespective, I think the question here is, are LR dealers obliged to apply any and all software updates to a vehicle at service time? I suspect that they are not, unless the update is the subject of a recall notice.

In my experience, dealers will typically only install updates/TSBs where either: 1) the customer complains about a problem; or 2) if the update/TSBs are to close out issues related to a recall.

Note that the items you quoted were not recalls. Recalls are listed here:
Land rover (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952880)

[CraigA]

In my experience, dealers will typically only install updates/TSBs where either: 1) the customer complains about a problem; or 2) if the update/TSBs are to close out issues related to a recall.

Note that the items you quoted were not recalls. Recalls are listed here:
Land rover (http://www.recalls.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/952880)

This seems consistent with my experience.
To answer all the various questions .. (willem) I don't think many people would argue that Toyotas are more reliable than LRs. And yes, having driven a Prado before buying my D4, they are a lesser car. That being said, I have spoken to many people who wouldn't take a Disco into remote areas.

After this experience (and a few others), I believe that the way LR handles public relations may exacebate some problems. I'll reserve final judgement until they reply to my email.

Cheers all, thanks for the heads-up re topix.

[chuck]

Had a 150 Prado after my Discovery 3.

Sold it after 4 months and bought a D4.

[CraigA]

Sooo, ENGINE SYSTEMS FAULT, according to my local dealer is a fault you cannot install the software update for until it actually happens. If you look at the internet, almost all ESFs occur while the car is towing.

What's going on??

[Graeme]

Ah, your closest dealer! Go elsewhere.

Edit: I drove past them to MLR in Melbourne to get proper service.

[MartyJB]

This has just happened to me "Engin Systems Fault" and if it is a software issue that has caused this and put my car into what seems to be limp home mode(complete loss of power), I will be very upset.
This sort of thing will make me consider an "lesser Toyota" that gets me from A to B when I need it to!
It's pretty embarrassing telling your friends you can't go away for the weekend because my 3 year old car with only 35k kms on the clock is broken down. Dealer closes at 12 today as it's sat. I called at 10 to, to see if they'd stay back to look at it but they wouldn't have to bring it Monday...
Guess it's better it happened here in Perth prior to heading south in this 44 degree heat with 3 kids under 6 that would have been very uncomfortable.

[willem]

This has just happened to me "Engin Systems Fault" and if it is a software issue that has caused this and put my car into what seems to be limp home mode(complete loss of power), I will be very upset.
This sort of thing will make me consider an "lesser Toyota" that gets me from A to B when I need it to!
It's pretty embarrassing telling your friends you can't go away for the weekend because my 3 year old car with only 35k kms on the clock is broken down. Dealer closes at 12 today as it's sat. I called at 10 to, to see if they'd stay back to look at it but they wouldn't have to bring it Monday...
Guess it's better it happened here in Perth prior to heading south in this 44 degree heat with 3 kids under 6 that would have been very uncomfortable.


I appreciate the frustration, but I have to say that if you expect Toyotas never to have similar problems you're dreaming! I have been around long enough to know that all complex machines have problems. Toyotas are no exceptions! Neither are Land Rovers, Nissans, Rolls Royce, or anything else, in spite of what the various fan boys would have you believe.


I can tell you about a certain Toyota RAV4 that I am involved with right now ... but I won't bore you.


Willem

[Graeme]

A different engine fault can occur with the 3.0 when the secondary turbo inlet isolation valve gets a build-up of dirt in its external linkages causing the valve to not open smoothly. The sympton is that of a sticky throttle when the 2nd turbo should be starting to be used that eventually results in limp-home mode when it gets bad enough. Its quite easily remedied and there are a couple of threads relating to the subject, if only I could find them.

[rifi1]

A different engine fault can occur with the 3.0 when the secondary turbo inlet isolation valve gets a build-up of dirt in its external linkages causing the valve to not open smoothly. The sympton is that of a sticky throttle when the 2nd turbo should be starting to be used that eventually results in limp-home mode when it gets bad enough. Its quite easily remedied and there are a couple of threads relating to the subject, if only I could find them.

Tried to explain this to a dealer in WA but was told if no fault codes then there was nothing wrong. I am now 2 days away from home after putting up with my problem for the last 3 months and hope i get home in one piece. I am sure my purchasing dealer will have it sorted in no time.

[Graeme]

Tried to explain this to a dealer in WA but was told if no fault codes then there was nothing wrong.Its a great attitude, practiced by people who know nothing about the engines so rely solely on fault codes - been on the receiving end with my 99 TD5 D2.
When the stickyness gets bad enough several fault codes are stored but in the meantime you're on your own.

[rifi1]

Its a great attitude, practiced by people who know nothing about the engines so rely solely on fault codes - been on the receiving end with my 99 TD5 D2.
When the stickyness gets bad enough several fault codes are stored but in the meantime you're on your own.

So i have discovered. Service manager basically told me not to believe everything you read on the internet and was not interested in what i had to say.

[gghaggis]

So i have discovered. Service manager basically told me not to believe everything you read on the internet and was not interested in what i had to say.

I take it that if there were no codes, you didn't have the Engine Systems Fault light on? So what were you asking the dealer to fix? Was there some other symptom, or are you referring to a general hesitation? Hesitation can be due to a lot of other things, not just the turbo actuator.

Cheers,

Gordon

[rifi1]

I take it that if there were no codes, you didn't have the Engine Systems Fault light on? So what were you asking the dealer to fix? Was there some other symptom, or are you referring to a general hesitation? Hesitation can be due to a lot of other things, not just the turbo actuator.

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon if you read my other post http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/186574-d4-surge-while-towing-uphill.html it will fill you in.

Cheers

[Ean Austral]

Excuse my ignorance but isn't the simple and by the sounds of it easiest solution to buy your own fault code reader/ reset. ie fault mate , hawkeye, whatever.

Cheers Ean

[ADMIRAL]

I appreciate the frustration, but I have to say that if you expect Toyotas never to have similar problems you're dreaming! I have been around long enough to know that all complex machines have problems. Toyotas are no exceptions! Neither are Land Rovers, Nissans, Rolls Royce, or anything else, in spite of what the various fan boys would have you believe.


I can tell you about a certain Toyota RAV4 that I am involved with right now ... but I won't bore you.


Willem

Dead right, Sit in any caravan park, and you will hear a long list of issues from the owners of virtually every brand on the market. A long day of towing tends to sort a lot of the newer vehicles out. Quite a few 200 series owners have been unable to start their vehicles the day after a heavy towing trip.

It is all part of modern vehicle ownership.

[MartyJB]

Mine was all fixed Monday by the dealer. They didn't say too much but claimed it was not a software up date but a software fault that was corrected by a reload and they tell me it won't happen again I was just very unlucky.
I'm disappointed it happened but can't complain about the service, they are always professional and they didn't charge me. Forman did the job and manager followed up to make sure I was happy.

[Graeme]

Mine was all fixed Monday by the dealer. They didn't say too much but claimed it was not a software up date but a software fault that was corrected by a reload and they tell me it won't happen again I was just very unlucky.I think you've been fed a story to make you happy. How can they guarantee that it wont happen again if nothing has changed? Hopefully a later s/w version was installed that prevents this particular occurrance but if not then it can happen again. One thing about computers is that they produce consistant results given the same set of circumstances.

[Andy46]

On the 18 th December 2013 my wife an I packed our vehicle with supplies, a freezer and a fridge and a fair bit of other gear to travel from Toowoomba Qld to Tenant Creek NT then to King Ash Bay in the Gulf to fish. As one would expect mother had a load of gear and stuff for our daughter who is expecting our first grandchild in March. Our vehicle a 2011 Disco 4 is well maintained and had 42000 odd k's on it so we where happy to be heading off to see our daughter and to spend Christmas with her and her husband. As we passed a vehicle just out of Dulacia the car suddenly slowed and went into limp home mode and the dreaded Engine Fault light came on. I stopped and checked all over the vehicle - no leaks, plenty of water, no strange sounds or motor noises and all was normal as could be ascertained. As we were just out of mobile phone range I started the vehicle a few times whilst checking and looking and set off again - light still on but the vehicle was running normally. We continued on with the light on but with no apparent fault - fuel consumption normal, temp normal and full power. As soon as we could I contacted Landrover Roadside assistance who advised us that the vehicle would need to be towed to Toowoomba for repair. After a half hour conversation with the idiot and explaining to him that there was nothing wrong but could we get someone in maybe Roma or Longreach or Mt Isa to look at but no he insisted it must not be driven and returned to Toowoomba only by tow truck. We did not agree and contused and disappointed with the response and poor service we continued as it is our only two week break a year. We then continued with the light on the whole time for our trip and I finally got the car serviced yesterday at southern Cross Ford Toowoomba yesterday at 49 845 k's and they could find no fault with it at all - reset the light to turn it off and said it displayed no faults in its memory - so what good or how reliable is that warning system - completely useless and unreliable and I now have no faith in their system. Also should it happen again why or how could you trust it ??? It is extremely poor of Landrover to have such a useless warning system in a vehicle. Does it also mean that is saying the air bags are fine but really they are not ???

[gghaggis]

It is _extremely_ advisable to fork out the $300 ~ $400 for a diagnostics box so that you can examine (and clear) your own faults when out of town. It's a cheap outlay for peace of mind.

If an engine warning light is triggered, you unfortunately can't expect LRA to take the risk and say drive it, if you don't know any of the codes or faults that triggered it. On the other hand, a good indie or dealer service department would probably have given you better advice. Either way, with a good diagnostics box you can help them and yourself make a better value judgement.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Andy46]

Can anyone please advise me of a good quality Diagnostic Tool to use on a Discovery 4 2011 Diesel 3.0 TDV6. To clear codes and also see whats what when a long way from nearest service agent and also to see if they are telling me the truth when near one again.

Andy

[gghaggis]

Have a look at the baby Faultmate (FCR or new nano), or the IID GAP tool. I'm not sure if Hawkeye's updated their modules yet for the 2011, but they're another player in this market.

Cheers,

Gordon

[orangepop]

Live Engine System Faulty issue. Right now (Sun 9th Feb) we are in Gympie Caravan park awaiting the local Landrover spares & service guy to open tomorrow morning. Yesterday our 2011 Range Rover Sport got an Engine System Fault about 40klm north while towing our van (2.7 ton). Everything was operating normally , no noticeable loss of power, engine temp normal etc. Landrover extended warranty want to tow it to Maroochydore but can't assist us with the Van so I utilized my Racq cover to get car & van back to Gympie ( after 5 hours, 1 roadside mechanic & 3 tow trucks..... But that's another very long story). So I'm not sure if local Gympie Land Rover specialist will be acceptable to Landy Warranty people so may still need to call on them to truck it to Maroochydore . I'm thinking that there is nothing wrong, code just needs to be reset as per earlier posts & and I will certainly be buying a diagnostic tool soon.

[GP1200]

While towing do you use the cruise control? Last Christmas I had a engine fault light and de rate while towing, after few calls to the call centre we decided to press on to Esperance, on the way there ( another 450 KM ) we worked out if we didn't use the cruise control while towing, the problem didn't appear, once back in Perth, we had a software update and was all good. LRA did want to tow the car at first, but after a discussion they let us proceed. After a search on the forum that night, it confirmed that the cruise control / towing was the problem. And all that was needed was the software update,
Jack

[orangepop]

Thanks Jack, you guessed it, yes I was using cruise control as I always seem to get better fuel economy. I phoned Landrover Assistance this afternoon to see if the Local but private Gympie Landrover Service Specialist could check it out for them & they said no the car will need to be towed to Maroochydore ( where it will probably sit for 24- 48hrs I guess).

[GP1200]

Is the car ok to drive? LRA were keen to put it on a flat top as well ( mainly for safety reasons with the de-rate ) but after I explained to them that the car is fine after a stop and lock, it would re start and would perform normally (until I used cruise control again ) we continued on our holiday with no further problems (and didn't use the cruise ) just wondering if it the same software fault, and you could continue on with the hassle of losing your car for a few days.
Jack

[orangepop]

Is the car ok to drive? LRA were keen to put it on a flat top as well ( mainly for safety reasons with the de-rate ) but after I explained to them that the car is fine after a stop and lock, it would re start and would perform normally (until I used cruise control again ) we continued on our holiday with no further problems (and didn't use the cruise ) just wondering if it the same software fault, and you could continue on with the hassle of losing your car for a few days.

Jack


Engine seemed all ok even when the fault appeared, I just didn't want to do any damage by driving it further which us what the manual says. "Stop & Lock" at no time since we stopped did I lock the car, are you saying that locking the car has some impact on the fault resetting. The car is currently locked up in a tow contractors compound so I'll unlock it in the morning & see if the fault message is cleared, if so we will continue without cruise control as you suggest. Fingers crossed!

[GP1200]

We were told to lock and unlock the car 3x times. The fault lamp stayed illuminated, but we had full power again, when the car de rated, it was very obvious when it lost power, it was sort of like a slipping clutch feeling ( when we used to change gears ....:D ) and the speed dropped off and wouldn't pull.

As it was over a year ago I can't remember the exact light and message that came on, sorry

Jack

[orangepop]

That sounds really weird "lock & unlock 3 times" hoodoo voodoo!. Anyway I'll give it a shot tomorrow & see what happens. Thanks😳

[SBD4]

It is a basic reset procedure.

[orangepop]

Car at LR Sunshine Coast. I explained what I believed the issue was as per this forum. Just had a call..... Software updated & car ready to collect. What a waste of everyone's time & money due to the update not being done last service. Thanks to everyone for your feedback.

[Graeme]

Its not as though the updated s/w has only just become available, being well over 12 months old. Shame on dealers who don't ensure s/w is current and shame on LR for not notifying owners of the preventative fix.

[GP1200]

Glad it was all sorted, yes I'm at a loss if you take the time to get your car serviced regularly at a LR dealership why they don't do all the software updates,
Does anyone know why?

[orangepop]

I'll be asking "why" tomorrow when I pick the car up. If I get an intelligent answer I'll let you know GP1200

[discojools]

Recently had engine warning light come on in my D4 2.7 (2010 90000k). Initially it came on randomly over a couple of days. Finally came on most of the time. Service manager immediately said it was probably split inter cooler hose. Engine lost a little bit of power.
Hose replaced, no more engine fault.

[Graeme]

I'll be asking "why" tomorrow when I pick the car up. If I get an intelligent answer I'll let you know GP1200

It takes time to hook-up the machine and there's probably only 1 machine so unless an owner has reported a problem the machine doesn't get connected. If the dealer looks after their customers properly then it gets done.

[orangepop]

It takes time to hook-up the machine and there's probably only 1 machine so unless an owner has reported a problem the machine doesn't get connected. If the dealer looks after their customers properly then it gets done.


I suggested to the service manager that the fault was probably due to the lack of a software update for using cruise control while towing. Car fixed same day, just the software update $186 supposedly not covered by extended warranty..... To be continued.😏

[GP1200]

You send it was 2011, gee that harsh, can't be long out of factory warranty?
Has the car been serviced at LRA Dealers?
Jack

[orangepop]

You send it was 2011, gee that harsh, can't be long out of factory warranty?
Has the car been serviced at LRA Dealers?
Jack
Yes, not that long out of original Warranty and only a couple of months into the LR Extended warranty. Anyway L/R extended warranty simply say software updates are not covered. So it seems that some tech at the dealers in North Sydney did not do the update in spite of including that on the work invoice. Its not worth chasing further with the dealer, its time to move on. Im just gald it happened close to home and not the Tanami :cool:

[JonW]

Sorry to drag this one out of the grave but my 2010 3.0 D4 has done the same thing although it has 232k kms on it. No restricted performance warning though and no code/s. Just a reduction in power, no smoke, no hesitation, no rough running. Just gutless. Hope a software fix sorts it out.

[Graeme]

For how long has it been like this?

[JonW]

Just on the way to work yesterday morning, on the expressway at about 110. In the dealer at Gosford now. No codes on the scan tool, yes the inlet manifolds have been done 30k ago. P006a fault for them. Checked it parked at work, starts and runs cleanly but no smoke, no oil dripping and no restricted performance warning either.

[Graeme]

No sign of the park brake being stuck on? You'd smell the burning before getting too far so unlikely.

[BobD]

I wonder if it might be related to the transmission in some way at that mileage, especially if it hasn't had an oil change for a long time. I don't know what it would be but just a thought. I assume that the car wasn't revving abnormally, which would be a bit of a give away.

[DiscoJeffster]

Sorry to drag this one out of the grave but my 2010 3.0 D4 has done the same thing although it has 232k kms on it. No restricted performance warning though and no code/s. Just a reduction in power, no smoke, no hesitation, no rough running. Just gutless. Hope a software fix sorts it out.

In regards to your ‘no codes’ comment. Did you use an IIDTOOL? If so, you need to go into options and select ‘pending’ errors. P006a etc all come in as pending errors and by default the IID doesn’t show them. Catches you out as a newby to the tool

[JonW]

BobD- ZF6hp26 is serviced every 20k, no due for another 10k yet. No issue with the trans- shifts were fine, drove as normal.

Disco Jeffster- I have used a canbus data scan tool which picked up the previous error with the manifolds, but no faults either stored or pending.

Monday is the day, so I will update when I know.

[JonW]

Had a call from the dealer, seems the fuel/power control ECU needed a refresh and all is good again.

Except that they also diagnosed the viscous coupling in the cooling fan as pumping out some faults. Anyone else had this issue? Cooling fan and coupling is only a couple of hours work since the fan shroud is now two pieces after doing the cam belt.