Helping D3 bogged in sand

[BobD]

My son in his TDI 300 D1 and me in my 3.0 TDV6 SE D4 were playing on the beach at Mutton Bird Island near Albany when we saw a D3 bogged. It was a V6 Petrol.

We first found his DSC switch which was hard to find in the D3 and turned that off, then told him to let his tyres down to 16. I thought he would just drive out using Rock Crawl but no go. Then used my Max Trax under his front wheels and it made it about 5m and stopped again. Max Trax again and he got going with his front wheels at an angle of 10 to 20 degrees the whole time. He turned around on the sloping sand near the water, very risky on this beach, managed to get back to us with his wheels still turned going really slow and got bogged at the same spot again.

I told him what he was doing wrong and told him to do a GOE course to learn how to drive the D3! (Gordon, expect some contact soon!) I asked him if I could have a go. Used the Max Trax again got going and I got bogged after 5 m. I couldn't believe it with tyres at 16 psi. My car with ECB bull bar, Kaymar rear bar, 150 l of fuel but with 285 60 R18 D697's at 18 psi was having no problems at all.

Max Trax again and finally got going, getting used to the petrol V6. Once on the move the car was fantastic but my new friend thought I would blow up his engine. We were cruising along in auto and sand mode with the engine spinning nicely at 4 to 5000 rpm, drove the full length of the beach, up in the dunes near the river mouth, all no problems. He said he would never do that to his engine, which was why he was driving so slow and getting bogged.

Got him back in the drivers seat and took him the full length of the beach and up a steeper more challenging dune with no issues. He was loving it and getting used to the engine revving and got confident.

He drove back to his family and friends who had parked their Hi Lux on another soft section of beach. We were leaving but saw they were bogged again. Went back with the Max Trax again and his mate checked the D3 tyre pressures. They were on 25 psi and my new friend said surely the extra few psi wouldn't make much difference! He was too scared to let them down to 16 and none of his party had a compressor!

After two more goes with the Max Trax he was on firmer sand and heading to BCF to get Max Trax! I tried to drum in that he must let his tyres down! It was pretty annoying to find that he hadn't lowered his pressures enough after I had told him what to do and he said he had but we had an hour of fun doing some training and recovery practice. At least I now know why it was so difficult to get going in the very soft sand.

The V6 petrol was a gem. It was incredibly smooth and quiet with heaps of power when you let the transmission do its thing to keep the revs up in sand mode. He was worried about his engine but it was so smooth and quiet that 5000 is nothing. I have never driven such a smooth, quiet, free spinning engine before.

Anyway mate, we learnt a lot if you read this. Get out there and do it again but this time be prepared with recovery gear and LET YOUR TYRES DOWN!!!

Bob

[~Rich~]

Yeah it annoys the hell out of me seeing people who resist letting their tyres down at all costs. :twisted:
Especially in the Simpson and Fraser as they cause woop de doo's / cross angle bumps especially on climbs.

[Tombie]

Hence the phrase -
"All the gear, No Bloody Idea..."

[4evershiva]

quick one....does the DSC needs to be turned off for all off road types like sand, mud, rocks, etc

[BobD]

quick one....does the DSC needs to be turned off for all off road types like sand, mud, rocks, etc

Gordon's book explains all. I think he recommends DSC on for rocks when using Rock Crawl but I usually turn it off from force of habit as we do mainly sand driving in WA.

Bob

[bbyer]

I know reducing tyre pressure in sand works but why - what actually happens?

Does the tyre get wider so ground pressure is reduced or does the tread just work better or ....

I ask that as it seems to me that soft sand and soft snow might be about the same to a tyre.

I recall I had a duce and a half 6x6 M135 GMC Army truck with the six 11:00 x 20 non directional CC tread tyres on it. On level icy ground it would be stuck unless the tyres were aired down so I know it works, I just do not know why.

[benji]

Hire companies on Fraser Island won't lower their pressures. They're set at 30ish and that's it. Apparently it's because people will roll them off the rim.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using AULRO mobile app

[Ean Austral]

I know reducing tyre pressure in sand works but why - what actually happens?

Does the tyre get wider so ground pressure is reduced or does the tread just work better or ....

I ask that as it seems to me that soft sand and soft snow might be about the same to a tyre.

I recall I had a duce and a half 6x6 M135 GMC Army truck with the six 11:00 x 20 non directional CC tread tyres on it. On level icy ground it would be stuck unless the tyres were aired down so I know it works, I just do not know why.

I was told that by airing down the foot print of the tyre grows longer this having more area on the sand and giving the weight distribution more area instead on just the less area if the tyre is round.

Cheers Ean

[isuzurover]

I know reducing tyre pressure in sand works but why - what actually happens?

Does the tyre get wider so ground pressure is reduced or does the tread just work better or ....

I ask that as it seems to me that soft sand and soft snow might be about the same to a tyre.

I recall I had a duce and a half 6x6 M135 GMC Army truck with the six 11:00 x 20 non directional CC tread tyres on it. On level icy ground it would be stuck unless the tyres were aired down so I know it works, I just do not know why.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1348.jpg
http://coopertiresaus.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/tyre-footprint.jpg

Your situation on icy ground was different though. Airing down probably allowed the tyre lugs to bite in.

[WhiteD3]

I found the D3 V6 a better drive (compared to the D4 TDV6) on the sand due to the responsiveness of the engine. Yes you have to ring its neck, but it does sound good in low 2 with the revs up :D

What was not good was the economy on sand :(

The TDV6 on the other hand requires more attention to ensure the turbo's doing its thing.

[Blknight.aus]

I know reducing tyre pressure in sand works but why - what actually happens?

Does the tyre get wider so ground pressure is reduced or does the tread just work better or ....

I ask that as it seems to me that soft sand and soft snow might be about the same to a tyre.

I recall I had a duce and a half 6x6 M135 GMC Army truck with the six 11:00 x 20 non directional CC tread tyres on it. On level icy ground it would be stuck unless the tyres were aired down so I know it works, I just do not know why.

larger contact patch and lower ground pressure. shallow snow and Ice can go either way, higher pressures get you a smaller contact patch so more ground pressure which in some cases is what you need to stop the tyre from breaking loose (this is usually the go on a thin layer of snow over a hard unfrozen surface), other times you need the lower pressure so you have more tread blocks in contact with each edge of the block giving you a "bite" at the ice which gets you going.

Radial ply tyres tend to grow in length
Cross ply tend to do a bit of both

[Meken]

Also on sand the lower pressure lets the tyre deform more so it can "roll" (kind of bend in) up over the lumps bumps etc rather than cutting through

[letherm]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1348.jpg
http://coopertiresaus.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/tyre-footprint.jpg

Your situation on icy ground was different though. Airing down probably allowed the tyre lugs to bite in.

The diagram used by isuzurover helps explain why the usual advice is to lower tyre pressure on sand.

When I did 4WD training in my old Pajero last century :p the instructor explained that the weight of the vehicle on each tyre is 25% (obviously), so, for example, a 2 tonne vehicle exerts 500kg where each tyre's tread touches the road surface. When you deflate the tyre and say end up with twice the area, the weight per sq cm is halved, ie if the tread area was originally 100 sq cms each sq cm of tyre touching the road would have a 5kg weight load (500/100). Double the area and the weight load would be 2.5kgs per sq cm meaning less download force and hence less tendency to sink into a soft surface such as sand.

Please excuse the numbers above. They were used to make the arithmetic easy. :D

Martin

[Ean Austral]

We had the same issue when we did the Canning stock route, 3 x D2s and 1 wouldn't let his tyres down because he was scared they would roll off the rim being M/T. He was the only D2 that needed snatched on the bigger dunes after having several attempts. The other 2 had no problems.

In some really soft stuff in WA once I had my D2 at 9psi to get thru and not doing anything stupid I managed to keep the tyres on

Cheers Ean

[AnD3rew]

I usually start at 25, specially on the beach as some of the wetter sand sections can be pretty firm and you can travel at up to 80kph and I don't like driving on hard surfaces at speed with very low pressures. I haven't been bogged yet, but am always prepared to let them down further if need be.

I have two sets of easy downs purchased for about $20 each on eBay. I have one set at 25psi and the other at 18psi.

[Dapper]

BobD - I know there are probably hundreds of threads on tire size, but noted you have 285 60 R18 on your D3. Do they fit the arches without rubbing or any mods? I need new tires all round and want a decent all terrain - prefer not to have to change rims to 17's to get a decent tire in. Thanks

[SBD4]

BobD - I know there are probably hundreds of threads on tire size, but noted you have 285 60 R18 on your D3. Do they fit the arches without rubbing or any mods? I need new tires all round and want a decent all terrain - prefer not to have to change rims to 17's to get a decent tire in. Thanks

have a look at the spreadsheet Gordon has put up on his web site. It has a large range of tyres from 17's up to 20's and tells you if they fit or not along with pertinent tyre measurements:

Green Oval Experience Land Rover 4WD, Range Rover off-road Australia (http://www.greenovalexperience.com/#!documents-info/cbbz)

[sinistr]

When we head into the dunes from Two Rocks (North of Perth) I drop my tyres down to my set '16psi' on the Staunt type valves. I believe thats more like 20-25 and it will get to to most places. Similar situation when I had the Triton.

IF its not going, I lower them further and I've always been able to get out. D3 was on its belly last time with the suspension extended to the max, dropped the tyres and out she went - no issues.

I often wonder why people go out in 265/285 size tyres without letting any air down and then wonder why they struggle up the hills - big size tyre doesn't matter - need some air down regardless.

[scomac]

I was in Bremer Bay over Xmas and went onto a beach called Back Beach and got bogged to the eye balls in very soft fluffy deep sand to the point where it went into extended mode. (not pic below, forgot to take a pic when bogged :wasntme:

Any way got the max trax out and the shovel and got out of it no problem.

The tyres were at 15psi and did not feel confident in letting the 255/55/19's down much more as the beach sloped down in places.

This was the only time I got stuck out of the eight days we were there.

I used the sand setting,DSC off, low range 4 and 5 and it did it easy.

My mate had a Triton diesel, I gave him a drive of the D4 and he couldn't believe how easy it went along the beach. Didn't rev over 2000rpm where the Triton had to be at 4000+ to maintain momentum.

I had the LTZ Coopers on the sport and I can't wait to get them on the D4, then it will be a weapon in the sand.

[BobD]

BobD - I know there are probably hundreds of threads on tire size, but noted you have 285 60 R18 on your D3. Do they fit the arches without rubbing or any mods? I need new tires all round and want a decent all terrain - prefer not to have to change rims to 17's to get a decent tire in. Thanks

Dapper, I have a D4 and my tyres rub slightly as mentioned in the GOE information mentioned in the post after yours. I haven't done any mods and the plastic liner has worn through in front of the rear wheels where the seam protrudes slightly as mentioned in the GOE information. No damage to the tyre though. I don't know whether the D3 is different or not.


Bob

[beefy]

I usually start at 25, specially on the beach as some of the wetter sand sections can be pretty firm and you can travel at up to 80kph and I don't like driving on hard surfaces at speed with very low pressures. I haven't been bogged yet, but am always prepared to let them down further if need be.



I have two sets of easy downs purchased for about $20 each on eBay. I have one set at 25psi and the other at 18psi.


18 and 25in wa will not get you thought start at 15psi and drop to 10 if you need .

[isuzurover]

I regularly run as low as 7 psi - both on sand and rocks. Makes a huge difference, and I have never lost a bead.

[ozscott]

Aired down also allows for a shallow approach angle of the tyre face which helps.on sand. Long footprint is what you want. Wide is like trying to push a log through sand. Airing down in soft sand and offroad preserves tracks and sand cuttings, beaches etc and aides traction. It allows tyres to deform around rocks and ledges and grip them.

Cheers

[~Rich~]

Land Rover alloys are known for holding the beads of the tyre very firmly, a plus for lower pressures until you need to strip one in the bush.

[bbyer]

Aired down also allows for a shallow approach angle of the tyre face which helps.on sand. Long footprint is what you want. Wide is like trying to push a log through sand. Airing down in soft sand and offroad preserves tracks and sand cuttings, beaches etc and aides traction. It allows tyres to deform around rocks and ledges and grip them. Cheers

Simple stuff is not so simple - that is why I asked why airing down works.

I also much appreciated isuzurover's tyre track sketch. I had forgotten the footprint gets longer - like two to three times longer, as it just did not seem that the width increased that much that it would help much - plus as you said, wider can mean more push required, and that is what slows one down when not enough horsepower is available.

[ozscott]

Yep mate. I once saw a sedan that had been lifted and had 4wd and trully massive wideys....400mm accross if an inch and low profile. He could not drive through soft sand to save himself and it wasnt clearance stopping him.

Cheers

[BobD]

I also much appreciated isuzurover's tyre track sketch. I had forgotten the footprint gets longer - like two to three times longer, as it just did not seem that the width increased that much that it would help much - plus as you said, wider can mean more push required, and that is what slows one down when not enough horsepower is available.


Yeah, the diagram is a great help in explaining why going from 25 to 16 makes a large difference in footprint. I wish I had it to show the guy I was helping when he queried it with me. Going from 40 to 25 is not such a big change in length compared with 25 to 16. One thing for sure, there is no lack of power with any Disco 3 or 4 model in sand!


I twice got up very steep, soft sand hills after the car had stopped while in sand mode, using rock crawl with DSC off and starting from where the car stopped. Interestingly, the car was severely rationing power in rock crawl with DSC off and it would rev to 3000 then cut it back to 1500, get grip and rev back to 3000 before dropping to 1500 in a cycle until it made it up the hills.


Obviously would have been better to reduce power myself but I was interested to see what it was doing and just kept the foot down while it did its thing. When it first happened it was a bit of a shock but I realised that each time the revs reduced the car started inching forward and then it would stop again as the revs increased and it lost grip. My natural instinct was to keep the wheels spinning in the soft dry sand but the car knew better.


Bob

[bbyer]

This computer stuff leaves one wondering at times. It seems that driving is heading towards where flying the big jets already is - for the most part, the computers do a better job than a pilot does - for the most part, as I said.

I recall looking with contempt at the Evoque with the non existent gear shift lever; now I see in I guess it was a 2014 LR4 at my dealers, also missing, the the gear shift lever. All there appears to be is a disappearing round knob in the console.

As to the terrain knob, well it appears to be some sort of recessed tipper switch, best ignored I guess as just adding a complication.

Given the no key "feature", and now, no shift lever, I wondered if when you enter you just announce Onward, or Getty Up; to stop, Wooh or something like that - or maybe you just think it - in the Queens English, I presume and with the proper accent?

.... and there will be no alternative - soon one will not even beable to purchase a new Defender?

On a more optimistic note, my forecast is that the no gear stick thing is just a fad. Like the digital dash, round dials have returned, (including analogue clocks), hence the gear stick will return; also I see car radios are starting to feature two knobs, one for volume, the other for tuning - how progressive! (That is in the truly new 2014 General Motors pickups.)

Boeing remained with a control wheel / yokes in the 787 Dreamliner so there is continued hope. I also note that there are still a couple of seats at the front as well - and per the jpg, fine Australian lambs wool seat covers it would appear.

Photos: Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boeing/Boeing-787-8-Dreamliner/1743848/L/)

[Ferret]

Interestingly, the car was severely rationing power in rock crawl with DSC off and it would rev to 3000 then cut it back to 1500, get grip and rev back to 3000 before dropping to 1500 in a cycle until it made it up the hills.

I've experienced that on sand too, in sand mode. Annoying - I would rather it remained under my control rather than deciding it knows better.

[BobD]

Hi Ferret,


Yes, it does it a bit in sand mode but not as aggressively as in rock crawl and mostly leaves plenty of power to do what you want.


You me and Discotwinturbo seem to be the Perth Hills representatives of Aulro. We will have to get together some time.


Bob

[discotwinturbo]

Hi Ferret, Yes, it does it a bit in sand mode but not as aggressively as in rock crawl and mostly leaves plenty of power to do what you want. You me and Discotwinturbo seem to be the Perth Hills representatives of Aulro. We will have to get together some time. Bob

We all live within spitting distance.....so let's do it.

I am currently in Tassie though.

Brett....

[discotwinturbo]

18 and 25in wa will not get you thought start at 15psi and drop to 10 if you need .

X 2

Brett.....

[BobD]

Half your luck Brett.


PM us or email when you get back.


Bob

[Ferret]

You me and Discotwinturbo seem to be the Perth Hills representatives of Aulro. We will have to get together some time.Bob

I think there are one or two more of us out this way but yeah we should work something out when Brett gets back.

[beefy]

going to be disco only thing?

[Ferret]

Nah, former Navara owners would be welcome. Besides, your got a winch. :D

[beefy]

haha and a fresh keg of that beer you like