Intermittent not starting

[RoverHse]

My P38 has developed a curious problem. Generally I will be able to start up and drive in the morning, but by early afternoon it will spin away, but not start. Tests from a non-landrover garage has confirmed that there is no pressure in the fuel rail. However, letting the car stand overnight, I will be able to start and drive off again, until the afternoon?????

I have had the becm repaired (Mark at Autocode) which sorted out my mysterious dash light failure, but the intermittent fuel/ starting problem persists.

Any ideas on what the issue may be. The fuel pump was replaced about 2 years ago.

[benji]

In the early afternoon, is the pump running when you turn on the ignition? It should run for a few seconds when the ignition is turned.

[wayneg]

Crank position sensor?
I have recently ordered two for my cars, one car is good the other intermittent.
Today I swapped both over so I could use my daily drive without fear of it not starting. When I receive the new ones you can have the good one off the car for a box of beer if you want it. Mine is the later type, ERR 7354

LAND ROVER RANGE ROVER MK II 4.0 1998 TO 2002 CRANKSHAFT PULSE SENSOR CS1489 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-RANGE-ROVER-MK-II-4-0-1998-TO-2002-CRANKSHAFT-PULSE-SENSOR-CS1489-/171129777625?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item27d8212dd9)

[TheTree]

Hi

Not sure if they ship to OZ, but this is a good price

Bosch ERR7354 Engine Rpm Sensor : Amazon.com : Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-ERR7354-Engine-Rpm-Sensor/dp/B007WMFG62)

Steve

[RoverHse]

Thank you Wayneg. I just need to check the part number. I have a '96, and it appears that it may be slightly different. It is listed as a ADU 7342L for the '95-96 model, while the 7354 is for the '99-02 models.

Thank you never the less for pointing me to the possible problem. I think I'll try the water trick in your other post. The symptoms also seem to occur when the car has been standing in the sun, and yesterday's 39 degrees was a perfect cause.

[TheTree]

Hi

Yes the GEMS models use a different sensor part # ERR6119

Steve

[mtb_gary]

Thank you Wayneg. I just need to check the part number. I have a '96, and it appears that it may be slightly different. It is listed as a ADU 7342L for the '95-96 model, while the 7354 is for the '99-02 models.

Thank you never the less for pointing me to the possible problem. I think I'll try the water trick in your other post. The symptoms also seem to occur when the car has been standing in the sun, and yesterday's 39 degrees was a perfect cause.

Vernon, how did you go tracking down a good price on the sensor?

Gary

[wayneg]

It looks like there are 3 types of CPS.
This website has detail of Vin numbers to hopefully help get the right sensor.

Electrical | Range Rover P38A | British Parts UK (http://britishparts.co.uk/t/range-rover/range-rover-p38a/electrical?page=3)

[TheTree]

Hi

There and you need a VIN for the GEMS by the look of it

ERR6119 Crankshaft Rpm Sensor GEMS
Crank Sensor V8 Auto P38 Def Ds1 - Land Rover Part ERR6119 (http://www.lrdirect.com/ERR6119-Crank-Sensor-Rr-P38-V8-Auto-Va-Wa/)

ADU7342L Crankshaft Speed Sensor is for GEMS engines with auto transmission pre 1999
Crankshaft Sensor V8 Auto P38 - Land Rover Part ADU7342L (http://www.lrdirect.com/ADU7342L-Crank-Sensor-Rr-P38-V8-Auto-To-Ta/)

ERR7354 Crankshaft Speed Sensor is for Thor engines My99 on
Crank Sensor Auto Ds2 P38 - Land Rover Part ERR7354 (http://www.lrdirect.com/ERR7354-Crank-Sensor-Rr-P38-V8-Auto-Xa-On/'sfi=ERR7354)

It looks as if the GEMS engines had an Rpm Sensor and a Speed Sensor but the Thor has only one.

Is that correct?

Steve

[RoverHse]

Hi Gary,

Searching and searching. The problem is that there are a number of manufacturers advertising the part. I'm assuming I could trust Britpart and Bearmach, but there are quite a few others out there too like Allmakes and Intermotot to mention a few. The prices range between £20-30 for the brands and £60+ for the Landrover box. Delivery adds about another 50-60% to the cost!!

Any recommendations on a reliable supplier - Island4x4, Craddock, LR Direct, Britcar, British Atlantic?

I also agree totally with the part numbers provided by Steve, which differ depending on the year model.

[Keithy P38]

I use island 4x4 all the time. Great service and quick shipping times.

[RoverHse]

I got quite a good price $93 + $11 postage for a Lucas (4 CS) part from British Car Components in Melbourne, which is on par with the princes I got for Britpart/ Bearmach from most of the UK sources. Genuine range about $150-180!

[RoverHse]

It has also been suggested to me that the engine bay fuse/ relay box may be contributing to the starting issues?

It has a crack through at one of the fan relays, which is also blown, so replacement may be a good preventative measure. I'll take a better look at it over the weekend.

[mtb_gary]

It has also been suggested to me that the engine bay fuse/ relay box may be contributing to the starting issues?

It has a crack through at one of the fan relays, which is also blown, so replacement may be a good preventative measure. I'll take a better look at it over the weekend.

In a shady cool spot before we hit 44!

Gary

[wayneg]

I have a fusebox for your car, PM sent


It has also been suggested to me that the engine bay fuse/ relay box may be contributing to the starting issues?

It has a crack through at one of the fan relays, which is also blown, so replacement may be a good preventative measure. I'll take a better look at it over the weekend.

[RoverHse]

Thanks for the offer Wayne, but I've gone for a new one, including all.new relays ($$$). Yours was never the less a good price, for any one else that needs one.

I had also given the crank sensor area a good clean with degreaser last week, and this has seemed to allow me to travel to work and back the last week. The new one is in the post though and will be fitted over the weekend.

[RoverHse]

New crank sensor installed, still not starting ******

[wayneg]

Well at least you can cross that off for now and the future. Next is Fusebox that you have coming, the fuel pump relay is close to the problem area and then the Fuel pump. Are you getting pressure at the fuel rail. The pump should run for a few seconds before the car starts. If it starts it will continue. If no start pump stops. ( as I understand things) No good cranking continuously. Short bursts and give the bottom of the fuel tank towards the front a thump with something flat.

[RoverHse]

Thanks Wayne. Just installed the new fuse box and new relays. Turned on the ignition, went through all the "set window" beeps, tried to start, and..... ABS FAULT! And won't even spin.

Back to the forums I go.

[Keithy P38]

As they say in Toyota land... Bugger!

[wayneg]

Thanks Wayne. Just installed the new fuse box and new relays. Turned on the ignition, went through all the "set window" beeps, tried to start, and..... ABS FAULT! And won't even spin.

Back to the forums I go.

I would be putting the original fusebox back and try again, at least double check all the plugs snapped home OK . If you want to just try my gems fusebox to confirm its not the new box faulty I still have it here..

[TheTree]

Hi

This definitely sounds like an electrical problem, have you checked all the earth connections?

Perhaps it is worth running the electrical checks outlined here?


Sticky: Electrical Troubleshooting Updated 2010 (http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-mark-ii-p38/28663-sticky-electrical-troubleshooting-updated-2010-a.html)

Regards
Steve

[RoverHse]

Swopped back the old box as suggested by Wayne.... Starter kicked over and no more ABS fault. So thought I would sit down and make sure that the relays are all in the correct place, only to find that when compared relay by relay the fuse box layout was different!!!! Further investigations has shown that it is a '99- model YQE 103410, while I needed AMR 3375 or AMR 6405.

The difference is that the the box supplied has engine relays at RL2 and RL10, while mine has ABS at RL2 and RL10 is a blank, which will explain the ABS fault and no engine kick over.

Wayne, what does your one look like. I may take you up on your offer to get me back on the road while waiting for the swop out of my new box.

[wayneg]

We are in a reversed situation I ordered a Thor and they sent Gems, you the opposite. If mine was not used I would suggest a swap.

[RoverHse]

Hi Wayne, I've sent you a PM.

[RoverHse]

Ok, so my new correct fuse box arrives.in it goes, turn the sky and starts.... Yay. Then all of a sudden the starter motor kicks in. I turn off the ignition, but the starter keeps going until I disconnect the battery. Now the minute I reconnect the battery the starter gets going without the ignition on??????

BECM serviced, new crank sensor and new fuse box, and still no go.

Anybody have ideas..

[Keithy P38]

Sticky solenoid? Bad relay? Ignition short?

I'm only poking, I have no idea.

Good luck!

[RoverHse]

I switched out the relay...no luck. Have not had any starter motor issues before either!!!!!

[Hoges]

I'd follow Keithy's suggestion about the solenoid. If you remove the key from the ignition so that the ignition switch is completely out of consideration. Remove the relevant relays. Now touch the disconnected lead to the battery terminal, does the starter fire up? If so, then the solenoid is somehow being energised, or, it's failing to release.

Also, carefully check how you have reconnected the new fuse box... are you sure all the heavy duty cables are properly routed/connected?

[RoverHse]

Thanks Hoges, I'm going to put a test light on the activation wire to the solenoid tonight to check if it is a power supply issue, if not then pretty sure it will be the solenoid.

I numbered the power cables to the fuse box when I removed them, and double checked the photo of the plugs on the bottom.

[RoverHse]

Took out the EMS fuses and SM relay. The minute I touched the battery terminal back on it sparked, and a few seconds later started cranking away. Did not get a chance to test the solenoid trigger wire, but it appears it could be the culprit,

[RoverHse]

To summarise my long story, I had 3 issues:
Dash lights not working. This was solved by a becm service (Autocode)
Radio has lost power- still a problem?
Intermittent starting - first thought the becm services would sort tHe problem, but it made no difference. Then changed the crank sensor, still no change. Then got a new fuse which resulted in ABS error and no cranking at all - it was the WRONG ONE!!! Then waited another week for a new one, fitted it, started the car, and the starter kept cranking after ignition off, and would only stop when the battery was disconnected. All suggestions pointed to a buggered starter, so I bought one. Before starting the big install I thought I'd check the power supply to solenoid activator wire, and it was PERMANENTLY powered, so not really a starter issue. Spent an entire removing fuses and relays to check when the situation changed. After the test light went on and off a few times I realised that the relays weren't making a difference, but the power went on/off as I moved the fuse box- assumed a loose wire/ short somewhere. After going through all the wires out the bottom of the fuse box I discovered that putting slight pressure on the nut to the main power in the top made the power to the starter fluctuate. Got another fuse box, connected up and all is well with my Rangie back on the road, without a radio though. Lesson learnt - Do not assume brand new parts could not be faulty.

Thanks to Wayne, I be in touch, consider your fuse box sold.

No to solve the radio problem.

[Keithy P38]

Time for a refund on the fuse box!

[TheTree]

Hi

Wow quite a saga ! Glad to hear you got it sorted, good luck with the radio

Steve

[davidsonsm]

What a relief. Must have been driving you insane. If you're anything like me!

[mtb_gary]

Well done Vernon. Surprised that the new fuse box had the same problem as the one you removed! Well done for tracking down the fault.

Gary


To summarise my long story, I had 3 issues:
Dash lights not working. This was solved by a becm service (Autocode)
Radio has lost power- still a problem?
Intermittent starting - first thought the becm services would sort tHe problem, but it made no difference. Then changed the crank sensor, still no change. Then got a new fuse which resulted in ABS error and no cranking at all - it was the WRONG ONE!!! Then waited another week for a new one, fitted it, started the car, and the starter kept cranking after ignition off, and would only stop when the battery was disconnected. All suggestions pointed to a buggered starter, so I bought one. Before starting the big install I thought I'd check the power supply to solenoid activator wire, and it was PERMANENTLY powered, so not really a starter issue. Spent an entire removing fuses and relays to check when the situation changed. After the test light went on and off a few times I realised that the relays weren't making a difference, but the power went on/off as I moved the fuse box- assumed a loose wire/ short somewhere. After going through all the wires out the bottom of the fuse box I discovered that putting slight pressure on the nut to the main power in the top made the power to the starter fluctuate. Got another fuse box, connected up and all is well with my Rangie back on the road, without a radio though. Lesson learnt - Do not assume brand new parts could not be faulty.

I have a brand new starter if anyone is looking to buy one.

Thanks to Wayne, I be in touch, consider your fuse box sold.

No to solve the radio problem.

[wayneg]

The chances of getting the incorrect part sent then the replacement to be faulty are very slim but you have at least persevered and sorted it out on your own. A few beers deserved.
On two occasions I have now had the wrong used fusebox delivered after asking all the right questions and double checking, what is it with these fuseboxes.
Now I have got the money back on the last wrong one, I shall try again to get the correct Thor one sent as a spare. At least the last wrong one ended up helping someone, Vernon. The previous wrong one assisted someone else in Perth.
From now on I shall only buy after I have seen clear pictures of the Part number.

[RoverHse]

So I drive to work yesterday morning, and drive around mid- morning and all is running fine. Had some EAS errors which reset while the car was off.
Noticed that my speedo was not working at all?

But I was happy(ish) as I was back on the road. Then come time to go home...... Cranking, but NO STARTING!!!!!!

So assuming fuel pump, or related sensors/ relays. Going to have a error scan on Friday to try and get to the bottom of it.

[wayneg]

IF you are going to change the fuel pump, do yourself a favour and cut a hole in the floor. I can have mine out and back in, in 15 mins. When my CPS recently went bad I actually changed the pump with a new one outside work as its so quick. The old Pump I took out has done less than 10k. Yours for a bottle of scotch if you want it. It is not a direct fit but easily fitted with a bit of hose (R10)
The whole Pump Sender unit can be had cheaply from the UK

[RoverHse]

So I drive to work yesterday morning, and drive around mid- morning and all is running fine. Had some EAS errors which reset while the car was off.
Noticed that my speedo was not working at all?

But I was happy(ish) as I was back on the road. Then come time to go home...... Cranking, but NO STARTING!!!!!!

So assuming fuel pump, or related sensors/ relays. Going to have a error scan on Friday to try and get to the bottom of it.
Walked up to it this morning and started first time, and then again this afternoon as if nothing was wrong.

I'll update once I've had the computer hooked up and faults scanned.

[RoverHse]

So had the p38 hooked up to the auto logic today.

ABS fault seems to be related to a sensor which which is not reading and needs some light adjustment with LR tool #1. This error is also resulting in a EAS fault. The ABS fault may also be a brake switch sensor. So will first be tapping away at the wheel sensors this weekend.

As far as the intermittent not starting goes, not a single clue from the auto logic, so can only think (hope) fuel pump. Of course it started faultlessly numerous times while at the mechanic, so I looked like the crazy one!
Next test is to thump the petrol tank the next time it won't start.

[RoverHse]

A good clean around the ABS sensor, and a light tap in with the hammer has resolved the ABS and related EAS issues.

[Scouse]

As far as the intermittent not starting goes, not a single clue from the auto logic, so can only think (hope) fuel pump. Of course it started faultlessly numerous times while at the mechanic, so I looked like the crazy one!
Next test is to thump the petrol tank the next time it won't start.There's a Schrader valve on the fuel rail in the engine bay which you can use to check for fuel pressure.


First thing in the morning, depress the centre to see if there's some fuel pressure in the rail (it may squirt out so sort of cover it with a rag & keep your eyes clear). A dribble might mean a weak pressure regulator or a leaking non-return valve in the pump.


Next, switch on the ignition for about 5sec (don't crank it though). The fuel pump will operate for a short period to 'prime' the system. Check the valve again. You should have a lot of pressure now (again, keep eyes clear). If not, you have a weak fuel pump.

[RoverHse]

The last time it wouldn't start, I applied LR Tool #1 to the bottom and side of the petrol tank a few times, and it then started straight away.

Based on that fix I have assumed the fuel pump. I'll still try your test as we'll though, as so far nothing has been what it first seems!!!!

[RoverHse]

Fuel pump replaced and all seems well with my Rangie. Had a bit of a shudder around 2000 revs though, so cleaned up the MAF, throttle body and air filter, and running much better now.

[mtb_gary]

Fuel pump replaced and all seems well with my Rangie. Had a bit of a shudder around 2000 revs though, so cleaned up the MAF, throttle body and air filter, and running much better now.

Great to hear you're back with a reliable Rangie.

Gary