Making a diesel Range Rover

[geo41]

My Jackaroo will need expensive work soon so I am considering selling it, buying a post-2000 Range Rover and fitting a 4BD1-T and MT82 transmission. Yes, a lot of work. Any advice on matching that engine to an MT82? Ditto MT82 to LT230 transfer case? Will the Rangy computer allow such a conversion or will it lock us all out or something? Other issues? Excessive weight on the front suspension perhaps?

[isuzutoo-eh]

An issue might be putting an old engine in a new car and resulting emissions complications...

[bee utey]

Of course the other thing wrong with a P38 conversion is that the LT230 transfer case won't fit as the drive shafts are on the other side. I'd stick to finding a good classic RR of a similar age to your donor engine.

[flagg]

Sadly I doubt you would get it engineered due to emissions.. :(



Duramax time? :D

[benji]

For the price of that conversion you may be able to pick up an early diesel l322.

Why the diesel?

[Dougal]

Get an L322 with the BMW 6 and see if an X5 manual 6 sp box will fit.

[geo41]

Get an L322 with the BMW 6 and see if an X5 manual 6 sp box will fit.

Thanks Dougal. I am put off by the very high prices those L322 diesels bring - around $16,000 more than a V8 petrol equivalent. And on top of that I don't know whether the manual gearbox conversion is possible. But your suggestion is worth looking into.

[VladTepes]

My Jackaroo will need expensive work soon

Yeah. Ours already has had, but I have little doubt the statement is STILL true of ours.....

[geo41]

For the price of that conversion you may be able to pick up an early diesel l322.

Why the diesel?

See my reply to Dougal. I will be towing my off-road caravan, and on long trips the petrol consumption may be more than I can afford. And some mining companies I might get bits and pieces of work from absolutely prohibit petrol vehicles in the entire lease area. Flammable gas, perceived explosion risk, insurance company rules.

[geo41]

Sadly I doubt you would get it engineered due to emissions.. :(


Duramax time? :D

Thanks for the warning about emissions. I will enquire.
Duramax? Ha! I wish.

[Dougal]

Thanks Dougal. I am put off by the very high prices those L322 diesels bring - around $16,000 more than a V8 petrol equivalent. And on top of that I don't know whether the manual gearbox conversion is possible. But your suggestion is worth looking into.

I'm seeing maybe 5x as many V8 L322's for sale as diesels. It appears no-one wants to sell the diesels and no-one wants to keep the petrols.

There is a diesel P38 for sale right now in the classifieds. They're a BMW 6 cyl engine and while indirect injection appear to be still a good one.

[geo41]

Yeah. Ours already has had, but I have little doubt the statement is STILL true of ours.....

Must admit my Jack has been extremely good so far (264,000km) but clutch is original, need new dual mass flywheel with the clutch, injectors are due, maybe all the engine sensors, valve gear recon too. You wouldn't tell to drive it though, it's sweet.

[geo41]

Of course the other thing wrong with a P38 conversion is that the LT230 transfer case won't fit as the drive shafts are on the other side. I'd stick to finding a good classic RR of a similar age to your donor engine.

Looks like I need to do a bit more homework. Didn't know about the wrong-side drive shafts. Maybe the older RR is the way to go, but the newer ones are just so much more comfortable. I want pampering.

[geo41]

I'm seeing maybe 5x as many V8 L322's for sale as diesels. It appears no-one wants to sell the diesels and no-one wants to keep the petrols.

There is a diesel P38 for sale right now in the classifieds. They're a BMW 6 cyl engine and while indirect injection appear to be still a good one.

Is that in NZ? I think over this side of the puddle the petrol-diesel ratio of RRs advertised is much higher than that. Premium price of diesel RRs is what has put me off going out and buying one. Petrol V8s are cheap. If you do a lot of long trips fuel cost for a year can be about the value of the vehicle. That's why they're cheap I suppose. Not green either even if you can afford the petrol.

[jsp]

Thanks Dougal. I am put off by the very high prices those L322 diesels bring - around $16,000 more than a V8 petrol equivalent.

in that case a V8 would be about 10 grand :) or are you after a high spec super shiny one?

there's a few diesels around in the mid 20's, theres a nice one in SA I know off.

but are you looking at a 5K-7K P38 and then another 5K DIY conversion?

Then again I have the pov pack l322 and I still feel the P38 to be more comfy for someone of my build.

[sheerluck]

.......There is a diesel P38 for sale right now in the classifieds. They're a BMW 6 cyl engine and while indirect injection appear to be still a good one.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/vehicles-sale/186913-range-rover-p38-2-5-diesel-dt.html

As Dougal says. So it's a 1999 not a >2000, but no hard work to do.

[geo41]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/vehicles-sale/186913-range-rover-p38-2-5-diesel-dt.html

As Dougal says. So it's a 1999 not a >2000, but no hard work to do.

Appreciate your interest and the trouble all of you have gone to putting forward your views. That diesel RR represents good value for somebody. But the diesel BMW 2.5 litre six only produces 280Nm of torque in its most powerful version does it not? I don't see that as enough to comfortably pull the vehicle and at least 1800kg caravan on unsealed roads, which may have sandy patches and steepish hills. That was why I was leaning towards the 3.8 litre Isuzu turbo in the first place. Quite possibly the P38A is a better starting point for my proposed conversion than the L322 (my notion of post-2000 could be either) but I think I need adequate torque at least 380Nm and I need manual transmission preferably 6-speed because I intensely dislike autos. 4BD1-T is reasonable for the engine, MT82 a logical candidate for the gearbox, LT230 for the transfer box. Original question was can I do that in a very nice RR without huge cost or insurmountable problems. No ****-weak engines, no old rusted out bodies and shabby interiors for me. And no autos.

[Dougal]

Appreciate your interest and the trouble all of you have gone to putting forward your views. That diesel RR represents good value for somebody. But the diesel BMW 2.5 litre six only produces 280Nm of torque in its most powerful version does it not? I don't see that as enough to comfortably pull the vehicle and at least 1800kg caravan on unsealed roads, which may have sandy patches and steepish hills. That was why I was leaning towards the 3.8 litre Isuzu turbo in the first place. Quite possibly the P38A is a better starting point for my proposed conversion than the L322 (my notion of post-2000 could be either) but I think I need adequate torque at least 380Nm and I need manual transmission preferably 6-speed because I intensely dislike autos. 4BD1-T is reasonable for the engine, MT82 a logical candidate for the gearbox, LT230 for the transfer box. Original question was can I do that in a very nice RR without huge cost or insurmountable problems. No ****-weak engines, no old rusted out bodies and shabby interiors for me. And no autos.

People have towed more weight for decades with less torque.

But if you want more the 2.5 BMW diesel is I think outline interchangable (mounts and gearbox) for all the other BMW 6 cyl diesels. It would be the start point and not the end point.
See if one of these will fit: BMW M57 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There seems to be a mismatch in your list of requirements and your budget.

[geo41]

People have towed more weight for decades with less torque.

But if you want more the 2.5 BMW diesel is I think outline interchangable (mounts and gearbox) for all the other BMW 6 cyl diesels. It would be the start point and not the end point.
See if one of these will fit: BMW M57 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M57)

There seems to be a mismatch in your list of requirements and your budget.

Perhaps 280Nm would suffice on the highway (and maybe not), and a 2.5 litre LR diesel can do that. But I will be going off the main roads into the hills. Now my project is to take a cheap petrol RR and fit an inexpensive Isuzu engine perhaps ex-army, an MT82 gearbox and LT230 transfer box. Your proposal is to take an expensive diesel RR, upgrade to a larger and very expensive BMW engine, and to somehow engineer a manual transmission and transfer case. So we are talking about two different projects. No wonder we can't manage to agree. And no, so far I haven't mentioned any budget figure.

[Dougal]

Perhaps 280Nm would suffice on the highway (and maybe not), and a 2.5 litre LR diesel can do that. But I will be going off the main roads into the hills. Now my project is to take a cheap petrol RR and fit an inexpensive Isuzu engine perhaps ex-army, an MT82 gearbox and LT230 transfer box. Your proposal is to take an expensive diesel RR, upgrade to a larger and very expensive BMW engine, and to somehow engineer a manual transmission and transfer case. So we are talking about two different projects. No wonder we can't manage to agree. And no, so far I haven't mentioned any budget figure.

Your original question was about the newer rangies, that's why I and others didn't mention the classics.
I already have a 4BD1T classic, questions about those are really easy.

If you are going for an MT82 then there is no reason to start with an ex army 4BD1. Go straight for a truck 4BD1T as you're going to have to adapt the engine to box anyway.
Fit extra weight to the flywheel, you want to roughly double it's weight and inertia to save the gearbox.

The 1985 RRC has the gear lever in the same position as the defender. The MT82 may fit well in that. 86 onwards they moved the gear lever rearwards and put the stereo where the gear lever was.

Regarding torque. The 3.9V8 only put out 320Nm.

[VladTepes]

All I know is the best RR I have driven was the TD6 L322.

[Offender90]

I know of a fresh 4BD1 powered Disco 1 with an R380 gearbox in good nick which may be up for sale. Can come with a turbo / manifold / twin oil filter on a remote mount and other turbo bits and pieces if required. Not quite what you're after but may save you the hassle / cost of doing the conversion yourself.

[33chinacars]

All I know is the best RR I have driven was the TD6 L322.


x 2

Gary

[finallyrangie]

I have just put a diesel into a P38, 2.8 TGV engine (375 N/M so moves along nicely), when I asked about emissions the engineer told me that euro 1 compliant was all that was needed up to 1998, so a 4BD1T should meet those, I used the auto box so no idea about the rest of it but in Queensland you just need documentation to prove the engine is compliant as there are no testing stations!

hope this helps someone at least a bit

[isuzurover]

I know of a fresh 4BD1 powered Disco 1 with an R380 gearbox in good nick which may be up for sale. Can come with a turbo / manifold / twin oil filter on a remote mount and other turbo bits and pieces if required. Not quite what you're after but may save you the hassle / cost of doing the conversion yourself.

I thought I had first dibs on that one? ;)

[geo41]

Thanks to all who have posted. I have been out and about during past 24+ hours and have just now booted the computer. Not keen on a Disco although that one could be source of major components to be transplanted into a Rangie. Agree L322 with TD6 would be great combination, but don't suppose a manual one could be readily set up so P38A might be easier. Reiterate that a very good RR petrol was the appealing starting point for my project simply because they are so inexpensive and plentiful. If I come across a Ford V6 diesel engine say out of a Ford Ranger wreck for reasonable dollars I would go that way rather than Isuzu but unlikely to stumble across a good one for anything like the going price of a 4BD1T. Ford V6 is likely to mate with the MT82 6-speed more readily (or might come already bolted to one) and Dougal's concerns about pulsing load on the gears would not apply to that combo. Thanks Dougal, I am pleased we are closer to agreement. Congrats on your Isuzu-RR Classic combo. Good tip from finallyrangie on emissions and on 2.8 TGV. Am I going to be able to buy one of those as cheaply as a 4BD1T? I think not by a long shot but it will fit up a lot more easily so might not be so bad for the budget. It's still a tiny engine (defined as less than 3 litres) and I presume that torque only comes when the turbo is full speed, otherwise it's struggling eg hill starts from lights etc. Is it a bit peaky in the torque ie narrow torque band? My experience is that towing a caravan is best done with engine volume, not turbo spin. Those little engine torque figures come from the test bench not the bush. My next moves will be a lot of enquiry, research and design.

[loanrangie]

Why not just buy the nice 99 Rangie with factory BMW 2.5TD in it thats in the markets ?

[sheerluck]

I'm seeing maybe 5x as many V8 L322's for sale as diesels. It appears no-one wants to sell the diesels and no-one wants to keep the petrols.

There is a diesel P38 for sale right now in the classifieds. They're a BMW 6 cyl engine and while indirect injection appear to be still a good one.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/vehicles-sale/186913-range-rover-p38-2-5-diesel-dt.html

As Dougal says. So it's a 1999 not a >2000, but no hard work to do.


Appreciate your interest and the trouble all of you have gone to putting forward your views. That diesel RR represents good value for somebody. But the diesel BMW 2.5 litre six only produces 280Nm of torque in its most powerful version does it not? I don't see that as enough to comfortably pull the vehicle and at least 1800kg caravan on unsealed roads, which may have sandy patches and steepish hills. That was why I was leaning towards the 3.8 litre Isuzu turbo in the first place. Quite possibly the P38A is a better starting point for my proposed conversion than the L322 (my notion of post-2000 could be either) but I think I need adequate torque at least 380Nm and I need manual transmission preferably 6-speed because I intensely dislike autos. 4BD1-T is reasonable for the engine, MT82 a logical candidate for the gearbox, LT230 for the transfer box. Original question was can I do that in a very nice RR without huge cost or insurmountable problems. No ****-weak engines, no old rusted out bodies and shabby interiors for me. And no autos.


Why not just buy the nice 99 Rangie with factory BMW 2.5TD in it thats in the markets ?

Yeah, why not! :p

[geo41]

Yeah, why not! :p

Two reasons:

1. The 2.5 litre engine is hardly enough to pull the RR over the Gateway bridge, let alone tow a caravan in off-highway hilly and outback roads. Might as well put in a 300TDi.
2. That will be an auto transmission I believe.

[sheerluck]

Two reasons:

1. The 2.5 litre engine is hardly enough to pull the RR over the Gateway bridge, let alone tow a caravan in off-highway hilly and outback roads. Might as well put in a 300TDi.
2. That will be an auto transmission I believe.

It was a rhetorical question only, as loanrangie hadn't appeared to have seen the previous post of mine pointing at that vehicle and your previous refusal. ;)

[Dougal]

Two reasons:

1. The 2.5 litre engine is hardly enough to pull the RR over the Gateway bridge, let alone tow a caravan in off-highway hilly and outback roads. Might as well put in a 300TDi.
2. That will be an auto transmission I believe.

A mate of mine has had 4.6 v8 p38's and recently got sick of feeding them. He bought the diesel and tells me it's just as quick up hills as the v8.
It's only if you rev the tits off the v8 that it pulls ahead and few can afford to keep doing that these days.

[DasLandRoverMan]

The 3 litre BMW engine from the L322 has been successfully retrofitted into P38's, and by all accounts seems to transform the drivability of the car, lots more power, lots more torque.

You might also consider a Td5? They work with the R380, and all the issues are well enough known you shouldn't be seen stuck with it, they're also quite tunable to the tune of your wish for 380nm of torque.
sticking with the R380 as a manual box makes some sense as you know it'll fit in the car, have selectors where they need to be, and a decent range of bellhousings available off the shelf.

Of course the main issue converting a P38 (especially with a mechanical diesel) is attaching enough electronics to the new engine so as the old ECU still thinks it's running the show and keeps the BCM happy.

[finallyrangie]

Good tip from finallyrangie on emissions and on 2.8 TGV. Am I going to be able to buy one of those as cheaply as a 4BD1T? I think not by a long shot but it will fit up a lot more easily so might not be so bad for the budget. It's still a tiny engine (defined as less than 3 litres) and I presume that torque only comes when the turbo is full speed, otherwise it's struggling eg hill starts from lights etc. Is it a bit peaky in the torque ie narrow torque band? My experience is that towing a caravan is best done with engine volume, not turbo spin.

maximum torque is at 1400 rpm so not peaky at all, but you are quite right, not a cheap option, I only did it because a red P plater was kind enough to make the engine in my disco available for transplant, just bear in mind that things are changing quickly in the diesel world and smaller engines are not the same as they used to be, variable geometry turbos make a huge difference to drivability, even at low revs, 4BD1T would still be a good option if you can make it work though

[Hoges]

The 3 litre BMW engine from the L322 has been successfully retrofitted into P38's, and by all accounts seems to transform the drivability of the car, lots more power, lots more torque.

You might also consider a Td5? They work with the R380, and all the issues are well enough known you shouldn't be seen stuck with it, they're also quite tunable to the tune of your wish for 380nm of torque.
sticking with the R380 as a manual box makes some sense as you know it'll fit in the car, have selectors where they need to be, and a decent range of bellhousings available off the shelf.

Of course the main issue converting a P38 (especially with a mechanical diesel) is attaching enough electronics to the new engine so as the old ECU still thinks it's running the show and keeps the BCM happy.

The firm (BodyLogic?) which supplies the kits for this (L322) engine transplant seem to have sorted it very well. However the costs in A$ are enormous (A$12k min for the kit, then you need to secure an engine plus ancillaries, send your engine wiring loom to the uk for adaption.... you'd be lucky to get out of it for under $20k all up.... I seriously considered this option but it is just not economical. If you lived in the UK , earning Uk pounds and had access to a greater supply of engines etc, then maybe...but not 'downunder' .... I also considered the BMW 2.5 diesel 6cyl. Apparently there is a relatively inexpensive remap plus larger intercooler available which improves its performance considerably

[geo41]

maximum torque is at 1400 rpm so not peaky at all, but you are quite right, not a cheap option, I only did it because a red P plater was kind enough to make the engine in my disco available for transplant, just bear in mind that things are changing quickly in the diesel world and smaller engines are not the same as they used to be, variable geometry turbos make a huge difference to drivability, even at low revs, 4BD1T would still be a good option if you can make it work though

Yes, I have to admit that small diesels are better now than small diesels used to be. But a friend recently hired a mobile home thing built on a VW delivery van chassis and equipped with a hard-working 2.2 litre TD engine I believe. Sluggish he said. Struggled to get up the gentle slope to Stanthorpe. Trucks were passing him. So I am wary of small diesels combined with heavy loads. Maybe they're OK if the vehicle is empty. And certainly not pulling a caravan.

Love those red P-platers. They are exempt from speed limits, red lights, indicator signals, following too close, just about everything really.

[DasLandRoverMan]

There's a few people made the 'Td6' work in the P38 and a few other applications using its own management system without using the Simtek kit which makes it considerably cheaper, more so if you could get the engine out of a BMW rather than an L322.

The Td5 is also a fairly uncomplicated option and can be set up to run independently of anything else with the ecu set properly. A quick look round also suggests you could pick up a Td5 locally for a lot less than $12k, and if you really wanted a complete engine, box and everything else you needed out of the UK for less than $5k.

With his 2.8 conversion finallyrangie should be able to tell you what's needed to keep the BCM happy to boot.

[Dougal]

Yes, I have to admit that small diesels are better now than small diesels used to be. But a friend recently hired a mobile home thing built on a VW delivery van chassis and equipped with a hard-working 2.2 litre TD engine I believe. Sluggish he said. Struggled to get up the gentle slope to Stanthorpe. Trucks were passing him. So I am wary of small diesels combined with heavy loads. Maybe they're OK if the vehicle is empty. And certainly not pulling a caravan.

Love those red P-platers. They are exempt from speed limits, red lights, indicator signals, following too close, just about everything really.

Sounds like you haven't driven any modern diesels.

VW don't have a 2.2 diesel. Plenty of 2 litres and then 2.5 in their vans. The 2.5 litres were doing ~400Nm of torque almost 10 years ago. I have a 2.0tdi VAG engined car, it's got better factory power and torque figures than a TD5 or 4BD1T and the hop-up list is truely endless.
At 1500-2500rpm in factory tune my 2.0tdi put out more power and torque than the 3.9/4.0 V8 petrols at the same rpm.

I think you need some real experience and not making decisions off hearsay and numbers on paper.

[geo41]

Sounds like you haven't driven any modern diesels.

VW don't have a 2.2 diesel. Plenty of 2 litres and then 2.5 in their vans. The 2.5 litres were doing ~400Nm of torque almost 10 years ago. I have a 2.0tdi VAG engined car, it's got better factory power and torque figures than a TD5 or 4BD1T and the hop-up list is truely endless.
At 1500-2500rpm in factory tune my 2.0tdi put out more power and torque than the 3.9/4.0 V8 petrols at the same rpm.

I think you need some real experience and not making decisions off hearsay and numbers on paper.

Well Dougal me old sparring partner, I began this thread so that I could benefit from other people's experience. I didn't expect put-downs and superior attitude. OK, it was a 2.5 litre VW. That's worse. It was a poor performer no matter what size the engine and that was a modest size mobile home, not a RR pulling a caravan. In my 73 years on this planet I have had more than average experience with diesel engines in 4, 5, and 6 cylinder configurations, with and without turbo-chargers, from less than 2 litres to more than 11 litres. The last modern diesel engined vehicle I drove was this afternoon. Little engines with big torque specs are suspect, when those numbers only apply to ideal conditions on the test bench. For example, when your engine has been idling and the turbo has run down, and the lights turn green and you are doing a hill start with close to two tonnes of caravan hooked up you realize that the little sewing-machine engine can't do the job for you. So you grab for low range, get through the intersection, find a place to stop after the hill has leveled out a bit and get it back into high range. Then you vow to have a bigger engine in the next vehicle.

But to return to the project that I opened the thread with, thank you to DasLandRoverMan who has provided very useful if sobering thoughts regarding ECUs and the like, which was one of my original concerns. There may not be a workable solutions to the problems that the electronics will present.

But to avoid irritating Dougal again I think I might do a lot better on one or two of the UK sites. I won't persevere any more with this thread.

[Dougal]

Well Dougal me old sparring partner, I began this thread so that I could benefit from other people's experience. I didn't expect put-downs and superior attitude. OK, it was a 2.5 litre VW. That's worse. It was a poor performer no matter what size the engine and that was a modest size mobile home, not a RR pulling a caravan. In my 73 years on this planet I have had more than average experience with diesel engines in 4, 5, and 6 cylinder configurations, with and without turbo-chargers, from less than 2 litres to more than 11 litres. The last modern diesel engined vehicle I drove was this afternoon. Little engines with big torque specs are suspect, when those numbers only apply to ideal conditions on the test bench. For example, when your engine has been idling and the turbo has run down, and the lights turn green and you are doing a hill start with close to two tonnes of caravan hooked up you realize that the little sewing-machine engine can't do the job for you. So you grab for low range, get through the intersection, find a place to stop after the hill has leveled out a bit and get it back into high range. Then you vow to have a bigger engine in the next vehicle.

But to return to the project that I opened the thread with, thank you to DasLandRoverMan who has provided very useful if sobering thoughts regarding ECUs and the like, which was one of my original concerns. There may not be a workable solutions to the problems that the electronics will present.

But to avoid irritating Dougal again I think I might do a lot better on one or two of the UK sites. I won't persevere any more with this thread.

You've got a thread full of people trying to help and now you're throwing your toys over a scenario you made up about vehicles with engines you haven't driven.

I have been in VW 2.5 diesel campervans (4-5 ton) and been seriously impressed with their get up and go. You haven't and have decided they're rubbish.

Sounds you you really need and deserve a chev 6.5 v8 diesel.:angel: