Why have Land Rover only made minor changes to the DEFENDER over the years??

[voltron]

Since I have bought the Defender, a million questions pop to mind. One of them that never stops bothering me is why didn't Land Rover improve on it in leaps and bounds over the past 2 decades??

My only uneducated guess is if they did, then it may have an impact on sales of the Disco. Or maybe they make good money from such an old design with minimal financial outlay and don't feel they need to as every Defender sold must certainly be a profit would it not???

Any thought's from those who understand Land Rover better then me.

[ugu80]

Some would say they got it right from the start. However, consider how much money they have saved not having to tool up for a new model every few years.

[Defender Mike]

It's hard to improve on perfection but they do go a lot better now than they used to. I drove 600 ks in mine today and could have jumped out and played a game of tennis. So they are more comfortable as well. :):)

[Pateyw]

Right the first time

[Felix]

Isnt that the whole point of the defender? What would there to be to improve on for a vehicle primarily designed for offroad work?

Obviously you didnt buy a defender for the comfort or electronic gizmos. You bought it for its offroad ability. I guess those who want something more advanced would buy a disco or range rover.

What kind of improvements would you like?

[JDNSW]

The Defender has as a major asset and selling point that it does not change very rapidly. This means that many parts can be exchanged between models whose production dates are decades apart.

It also means that it can be produced in quite small numbers without tooling costs killing the whole project. And allows CKD production easily in small numbers and a number of locations.

Unlike virtually every other car that has been made in the last thirty years, the Defender is hand assembled, bolted together rather like a meccano set. Substantial or rapid changes would mean that assembly methods would have to change, in a number of assembly locations.

This construction method means that there are only a few major press tools, for example, although the number of these has increased in recent decades.

John

[voltron]

Isnt that the whole point of the defender? What would there to be to improve on for a vehicle primarily designed for offroad work?

Obviously you didnt buy a defender for the comfort or electronic gizmos. You bought it for its offroad ability. I guess those who want something more advanced would buy a disco or range rover.

What kind of improvements would you like?

I don't think anything needs to be changed, I love the car as it is.I suppose the things I am aiming at are the usual things you see people doing themselves like sound insulation throughout the cabin and roof. Automatic transmission option, more legroom without seat extensions. Gullwing windows l, a bigger engine without a donor transplant and lastly an option of a rollcage. I except I have to do those things myself through aftermarket angles but it's much better IMO if they are done from factory as I don't like a new car being taking apart.

[Dougal]

Because smaller changes are cheaper.

[weeds]

The biggest change is happening in 2015................

[luke68]

15 years ago i had a decision to make as I wanted a diesel 4WD. Defender or Disco. Only reason I went for the Disco was the comfort factor and that it ran a similar driveline as the Defender (300TDI). Have not regretted that decision since a trip to cooper creek one year where it was 49 degrees in the shade. Air con was great, the Defer 110 Extreme that was travelling with us was struggling with the air.

[Bush65]

Land Rover has changed hands many times. Many car makers have problems making money and the British are no exception. When the British car industry was rationalised and marques were lumped together under the Leyland banner the many poor performers held investment in Land Rover back, with their profits going to support the rest of Leyland.

The sales of Discovery saved Land Rover from total demise, and the luxury market was more profitable. The Defender with its antiquated assembly methods is too expensive to produce. A replacement, if it eventuates, will no doubt be made on a modern assembly line.

When BMW and later Ford bought Jaguar and Land Rover, they never seemed to be interested in investing in Land Rover.

Ford could have been good in Australia if they used their dealership network, but they chose to lump Land Rover Jaguar and Volvo together in the small luxury network. That was fine for Range Rover and Disco, but bad news for Defender, in rural Australia.

Tata has been the best thing to happen to the Land Rover company, but in their relatively short ownership, coinciding with the GFC, it hasn't been possible to replace the Defender.

Fingers and toes crossed, they come up with a worthy replacement, unburdened of the current and traditional weaknesses. However European legislation is major obstacle for a vehicle many Defender fans who travel through outback Australia would wish for.

[Judo]

I have a few times before compared Land Rover to Apple. I am a fan of both. Just a few different products/models. They keep it simple. Every so often there is an update - mostly the product remains the same, but some features are upgraded where needed. iPhones and laptops get new CPU's and more memory, but not much else changes... LR's get new engines and gearboxes every major update.

Compare the first iPhone to the latest.

It's a strategy that doesn't appeal to everyone, but personally I like it. If there was a new Defender every year that was an almost completely different vehicle, people like us would perhaps buy something else and we would not have created this social group that we call AULRO. With that comes a following and recommendations to others to buy the vehicle. Etc, etc. I just fear that the corporate figures running most businesses (including LR) will ruin it all for us one day!

[Samblers]

the answer is because they hardly sell any

[the_preacher1973]

When BMW and later Ford bought Jaguar and Land Rover, they never seemed to be interested in investing in Land Rover.




The third generation Range Rover, which represented only the second major design update in 32 years, was officially introduced to the world at the Detroit Motor Show in January 2002. The new model was developed during BMW's period of ownership of Land Rover from 1995 to 2001. The redesign was given a high priority by BMW, with a total "clean sheet" approach resulting in the claim of most expensive development program for any vehicle, ever.

RESEARCH MARK III/L322 (http://www.rangerovers.net/researchl322.html)

[newhue]

the answer is because they hardly sell any

you might have hit the nail there me thinks. 20K units compared to 100K+ in other models in the marque. LR may as well keep the basic box ticking over because they can easily sell everyone of their most iconic cars with minimal investment.
Try and sell 100K+ defenders, they aren't that popular. Here in Aus 40 Defender per month, toyota hilux 1500, LC 70 series 1100 per month.

[Shortie]

Because they got it right early, had a stupid new puma now have the best vehicle in the world :p off road for the puma was a tilt tray

[Pickles2]

you might have hit the nail there me thinks. 20K units compared to 100K+ in other models in the marque. LR may as well keep the basic box ticking over because they can easily sell everyone of their most iconic cars with minimal investment.
Try and sell 100K+ defenders, they aren't that popular. Here in Aus 40 Defender per month, toyota hilux 1500, LC 70 series 1100 per month.
"40 Defender per month"....that's not many is it,....Do you have access to any official sales figures?
Pickles.

[ugu80]

you might have hit the nail there me thinks. 20K units compared to 100K+ in other models in the marque. LR may as well keep the basic box ticking over because they can easily sell everyone of their most iconic cars with minimal investment.
Try and sell 100K+ defenders, they aren't that popular. Here in Aus 40 Defender per month, toyota hilux 1500, LC 70 series 1100 per month.

Sort of an off road Morgan.

[Tomo]

I doubt they would make any $ off a Defender when they spend huge $$$ per vehicle in warranty repairs.....

[VladTepes]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In Land Rover's case "Even if it is broke, don't fix it"

[Wicks89]

Look at any great car and you will see that they look the same throughout the last 3 decades give or take. I'm talking Porsche, BMW, rolls Royce, Toyota land cruiser, land rover defender and range rover. They all maintain the image of their flagship vehicles. Why? Because they work and because people like it.

The defender is perfect for what it's MEANT to do which is carry soldiers, farmers, adventurers across rough terrain with a lot of gear. Hence, when it comes to it the design in terms of body and suspension has remained the same, the engine, driveline, interior have all changed VASTLY in the last 20 years. Going from mechanical to direct and then electronic injection way before most other 4x4 competitors shows that they innovated and changed what was required.

But when it comes down to it, putting in extra latte holders is probably lower on the defender design teams' list of priorities than actually making the newer engines fit under the bonnet. Plenty of people survive without extra insulation and ask anyone with a disco that's nearing 20 years old, the fairey spec electric windows are always firt to go.

[wrinklearthur]

Another major war would keep the current Defender going for years, the production line has probably only been kept going for this reason only.
. :(

[newhue]

"40 Defender per month"....that's not many is it,....Do you have access to any official sales figures?
Pickles.

No, dealer told me the LR figures. They also only get X available for Australian sales. I guess with 20K units as max production the poms are still happy selling every unit, regardless of market feedback. Been like that since 1948.
The Toyo sales is just something I have noticed in the back of a RACQ mag.

I think if LR did something with the hand brake, and gave people a little more room on the window side, and offered a tad more power they could sell many more. But is is what it is, sales are what they are, global design rules and safety regs are forever increasing. Defender owners are a dieing breed, like defender we all know. Not many of us trade up, not many move on. Just happy driving the ol truck for better or worse as the world moves along.

[Samblers]

Defender owners aren't a dieing breed, there's plenty of new faces (new enthusiasts, new/first time owners) coming along all the time. I wouldn't expect production stopping to have much effect either... In the same way it hasn't affected the continuing popularity of the aircooled VW scene for example.

I am a Design Engineer from a product design/ mass manufacturing background. LR has done all it can with the Defender given the low sales volumes and therefore economics of product development, which would be very poor. We should be thankful for LR for dragging it out this long, as enthusiasts... perhaps other manufacturers would have dropped the model by now.

Development will be limited to anything that requires low investment in tooling, or using manufacturing methods that are suitable for low volume production, i.e. no new body panels or large plastic injection moulded parts. No new/experimental features either (= risk).

Importantly, and as a previous poster stated, too much development and refinement of the Defender might affect sales of the Disco, which i think is the true LR 'hero' product, generates significantly more revenue and has a much longer product life and potential ahead of it.

[goingbush]

because when you are on a good thing, stick to it

1956 Morris Oxford
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/669.jpg

A late model Hindustan Ambassador, AKA Morris Oxford still being made today
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/670.jpg

Royal Enfield motorcycle is another example of same logic, being made the same in India since 1948

If Tata start producing a Defender in India rest assured that it will remain unchanged for the rest of eternity,

[DazzaTD5]

My thought after working on the Land Rover brand for 25 odd years is...

Land Rover really has struggled to maintain and manufacture a saleable product with minimal funds. Each new model was a forward developement of a product that was already there, basically copying their own product and improving it, the 200tdi, 300tdi, Disco 1, Disco 2 all based on previous designs so minimal R & D. The Defender got upgrades over the years with minimal costs involved, R380 box, TD5 etc. Other items on a Defender remained unchanged once again to minimise costs, the clutch master has remained unchanged since the series, but its not because its any engineering brilliance.

The ownership by Ford improved this, opening up the door for Land Rover with new engines and tech. Land Rover has always proved they can design and engineering with the best of them, but great ideas can be manufactured if you dont have any money.

Now with Tata we are already seeing great new things from Jaguar Land Rover, the new alloy manufacturing plant, new engine plant, new model rangie, sport, jaguar, evoque.

Would be good to see a new Defender that wasnt based on a D4 underpining, but as a lot are aware euro spec design rules may see the end of rigid axle, full chassis designed 4WDrives.

Regards
Daz

[steane]

No, dealer told me the LR figures. They also only get X available for Australian sales. I guess with 20K units as max production the poms are still happy selling every unit, regardless of market feedback. Been like that since 1948.
The Toyo sales is just something I have noticed in the back of a RACQ mag.

I think if LR did something with the hand brake, and gave people a little more room on the window side, and offered a tad more power they could sell many more. But is is what it is, sales are what they are, global design rules and safety regs are forever increasing. Defender owners are a dieing breed, like defender we all know. Not many of us trade up, not many move on. Just happy driving the ol truck for better or worse as the world moves along.

I agree, although I don't think we are a dying breed. It surprises me just how many people are interested in Defenders, young people as well. They have a timeless quality and an aura of adventure that is probably unmatched by any other brand.

When you can only make so many, (hand built and expensive to build) and you sell them all, then there is no need to change more than is required to meet changing legislation and some of the more pressing requirements of a softening western culture (a/c that works).

I'm sure if local dealers could get more Defenders they'd want them, it's not like they have yards full of them and a discount program in place to clear stock. It's more of a supply issue than a demand issue.

What they do with the Defender from here doesn't really bother me. It won't be the same as we know it now. It will be more like Toyota's re-do of the FJ40 (FJ Cruiser) which is about as appealing as an appendectomy.

It's the modernising of the Defender that has in my opinion gradually eroded the desirability of the Defender (for me). I covet the simplicity, the lack of electronics, the wash out interior, the ruggedness. I'm happy to drive around without a/c and to be honest don't really notice it except on really hot days. And there is just no getting past how cool a Defender is, even when it shrouds pedestrians in a dirty cloud of black smoke as it takes off from the lights.

That's what I'll miss when the Defender changes from a simple rugged icon to a marketing exercise for well-off suburbanites looking for a bit of retro cool. Well I won't miss it too much, I'll still have the genuine article.

[Sprint]

Whats wrong with it? Heck..... my biggest complaints with the current generation defenders is the sheer amount of electrnics, and that god-awful dash update....

[DazzaTD5]

Late reply but...

"god awful dash" ?? The three things (yes only three as I do work on them) I like about the new Defender is, the 6 speed box, the short throw on the clutch and a dash with a/c that actually works like something built in the 21st century!!

Regards
Daz

[PAT303]

I like the fact they only sell 40 a month,it's a defender,not a fridge. Pat

[Shoogs]

I actually think to many people spend too much time pondering why we like them...

It is, therefore, essential that we guard our own thinking and not be among those who cry out against prejudices applicable to themselves, while busy spawning intolerances for others.

Wendell Willkie

[stealth]

The biggest change is happening in 2015................

So what is exactly supposed to happen in 2015?

[frantic]

The basis of what may have been the New defender is driving around our roads for the last 2 year's. 129 in wheelbase, td5 puma donk made in UK and soon to be sold in wagon form. 2 different bodies and suspension settings( One is pretty ugly without a bullbar) called ranger/BT50.
As to the capacity argument? Proof please? Currently people claim 20k is the limit but in 1997 they made 37,000!
I wonder if they would have met or exceeded that figure if the defender for local ROW Export got the 3.2 td5 and the matching auto As an option?

[Pickles2]

So what is exactly supposed to happen in 2015?
The ONLY thing that anyone knows, FOR CERTAIN, is that JLR have stated OFFICIALLY that the last Defender will roll down the Solihull production line on 20th December 2015. That is JLR's official position.
As far as what else will happen?....IMHO, not very much, JLR have also made various vague statements that there will not be an immediate replacement, & when that replacement comes, it will have to be more commercially viable than the current Defender, which sells around 16000 units a year.
IMHO, no-one outside of JLR has any idea what form the replacement will take.
Cheers, Pickles.

[ugu80]

IMHO, no-one outside of JLR has any idea what form the replacement will take.
Cheers, Pickles.
I'd wager no one in JLR has any idea what form the replacement will take.

[Pickles2]

I'd wager no one in JLR has any idea what form the replacement will take.
Ha ha ha,..Well you could very well be right!!...because they sure ain't saying much.
I think that part of the reason is that their focus on Defender is nowhere near what it was, as they have so many other, popular, big selling, profit generating vehicles in the range.
Cheers, Pickles.

[Dougal]

I'd wager no one in JLR has any idea what form the replacement will take.

I'd wager that the new design already has prototypes mechanically working and in secret testing.
Quite possibly test mules disguised as current discoveries.
The lead-time for new vehicle design is phenomenal. Some companies work two models ahead.

What I find truely amazing is how secret they can keep everything. Not just JLR but every car company does an amazing job of keeping everything they need under wraps and only leaking exactly what they want to leak to keep the frenzy alive.

[Judo]

What I find truely amazing is how secret they can keep everything. Not just JLR but every car company does an amazing job of keeping everything they need under wraps and only leaking exactly what they want to leak to keep the frenzy alive.

I've wondered that as well, and the fact that it takes so many years to develop and build a vehicle, must surely be why there are such high costs associated with cars in general. I often wonder how much effort goes into trying to streamline the R&D and build process? Labour is surely the main cost in all that, so for every month they could get ahead, it would equal good savings.

Is it really that hard to make a car? :wasntme:

[gusthedog]

LR haven't changed for so long because they are stupid and stuck in the past. :wasntme:

I understand that people love defenders and I've had two myself. But when you look at some of the inherent weaknesses, they should have been solved before counties turned into defenders. Like room for a driver, lining up panels, reliability, water ingress, weak diffs and gearboxes on later models, lack of any safety (eg: airbags, crumple zones etc etc). People either love them or hate them and they are a purchase made with the heart, not the head. Of course all of this rant is in my humble opinion. Instead of a massive change in 2015, they should have evolved like other brands have throughout their history. Instead, they are stuck in the past and are reminiscent of an old world superpowers approach to building a car - if we build it, they will buy it because it's a land rover.
I can tell you that I won't be paying 60k plus for a vehicle that leaks, has a 71% chance of breaking down in the first three years (Land Rover revealed as the UK's least reliable car, as 71 per cent over three years-old break down at least once a year | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179067/Land-Rover-revealed-UKs-reliable-car-71-cent-years-old-break-year.html)) or has no safety to speak of.

End of rant. :D

[JDNSW]

.....

Is it really that hard to make a car? :wasntme:
The first Landrover seems to have been conceived as an idea in about June 1947. It appeared in the metal in July 1948, and deliveries started before the end of the year.

Today it is a lot more complicated - in 1948 the legal requirements for a car design probably amounted to about two pages, and compliance with these could be confirmed by visual inspection or a short drive. Today there are thousands of pages of details that you have to comply with, and furthermore, you need to have actual physical tests to demonstrate that the new design does comply (right up to crash testing). Designing a vehicle that complies with all of these, while still being able to do what it is intended to do, and that is able to be manufactured at a cost you can sell it for, involves a large number of people with different skills, from lawyers to engineers, to stylists, to production experts, to accountants, to market researchers. Ideas have to be swapped back and forth between them etc. It all takes time and costs money. Fortunately, it is not aas bad as it was a few years ago - a lot of it can be at least partly done by computer these days.

John

[cripesamighty]

From what I have been reading in financial papers, Tata dropped a bundle of money on the Tata Nano (people's car) and one or two of their other cars were not returning enough money either. Although Jaguar/Land Rover are doing well, the losses from the Nano and other projects has squeezed them financially and development money for the Defender replacement has been held back a little.

[ProjectDirector]

LR haven't changed for so long because they are stupid and stuck in the past. :wasntme:



I understand that people love defenders and I've had two myself. But when you look at some of the inherent weaknesses, they should have been solved before counties turned into defenders. Like room for a driver, lining up panels, reliability, water ingress, weak diffs and gearboxes on later models, lack of any safety (eg: airbags, crumple zones etc etc). People either love them or hate them and they are a purchase made with the heart, not the head. Of course all of this rant is in my humble opinion. Instead of a massive change in 2015, they should have evolved like other brands have throughout their history. Instead, they are stuck in the past and are reminiscent of an old world superpowers approach to building a car - if we build it, they will buy it because it's a land rover.

I can tell you that I won't be paying 60k plus for a vehicle that leaks, has a 71% chance of breaking down in the first three years (Land Rover revealed as the UK's least reliable car, as 71 per cent over three years-old break down at least once a year | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179067/Land-Rover-revealed-UKs-reliable-car-71-cent-years-old-break-year.html)) or has no safety to speak of.



End of rant. :D


I suppose it comes down to personal taste, I used to have a Hilux dual cab from new for 5 years and it had its share of problems. It all comes down how you treat them. I love my new defender and yes very agricultural but I enjoy it more than the Hilux.
If they don't produce a new version, well that is how it is these days, all about profits, at least I have one now.

[scarry]

So what is exactly supposed to happen in 2015?

You haven't heard?

They are changing Land Rover on the bonnet to Defender.

Another massive change:eek:

Oh, and in 2016,it gets an all new body,gets loaded with electronics and a new drive train.

[Rick Fischer]

Sort of come in late :(

Defender - Landie - apart from many of the opinions already voiced here, and concurring with many, would also suggest in addition to those is the $$$$$$$$$$/Pounds. Someone mentioned hand assembled and cost. Yep, but Landies R&D and tooling has been amortised many times over, and it still "works". You can also bet that it was cheaper to put RRC and D1 running gear underneath than it was to continue to build what by then had become the "orphan" Series chassis etc.

All same same Ford's F series utes/trucks and the GM's Blazer and the Chrysler Ram Series. All produced with minor changes year after year and are licences to print money...............all "grandfathered" as is/was Defender till the Eurocrats came calling.

Cheers

RF

[spudfan]

The reason that the current Defender looks like Land Rovers of old is really due to lack of investment by various parent companies. Remember the series 111 was never ment to be. After the introduction of the series 11A the Land Rover design office came up with a completely new design of vehicle to replace the series 11A. They were not given funds to go any further than this design stage but told instead to come up with some "improvements" for the existing model i.e. the series 11A. The money they wanted was used to help the car division with their products.
The powers that be reasoned that as the Land Rover was selling in large volumes with no competition on home soil and import preference rates of duty in the commonwealth why spend money on it. The proposed replacement for the series 11A that got no further than the drawing board was very car like in appearance. Should have a photo in an article somewhere. If I can locate it I'll stick it up.

[PAT303]

I've wondered that as well, and the fact that it takes so many years to develop and build a vehicle, must surely be why there are such high costs associated with cars in general. I often wonder how much effort goes into trying to streamline the R&D and build process? Labour is surely the main cost in all that, so for every month they could get ahead, it would equal good savings.

Is it really that hard to make a car? :wasntme:

Absolutely,not just designing the thing but tooling up the factory for it,it's a huge undertaking. Pat

[PAT303]

LR haven't changed for so long because they are stupid and stuck in the past. :wasntme:

I understand that people love defenders and I've had two myself. But when you look at some of the inherent weaknesses, they should have been solved before counties turned into defenders. Like room for a driver, lining up panels, reliability, water ingress, weak diffs and gearboxes on later models, lack of any safety (eg: airbags, crumple zones etc etc). People either love them or hate them and they are a purchase made with the heart, not the head. Of course all of this rant is in my humble opinion. Instead of a massive change in 2015, they should have evolved like other brands have throughout their history. Instead, they are stuck in the past and are reminiscent of an old world superpowers approach to building a car - if we build it, they will buy it because it's a land rover.
I can tell you that I won't be paying 60k plus for a vehicle that leaks, has a 71% chance of breaking down in the first three years (Land Rover revealed as the UK's least reliable car, as 71 per cent over three years-old break down at least once a year | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179067/Land-Rover-revealed-UKs-reliable-car-71-cent-years-old-break-year.html)) or has no safety to speak of.

End of rant. :D

Good to see you've based all that on facts :o. Pat

[jimr1]

Hi Volton , one of the reasons Land Rover have been slow to change was customer pressure . As we all know Land Rover have sold to many Armed Forces , and governments large fleets all over the world , including here in Australia . If they were to keep changing models and designs every few years , then spare parts would be a nightmare . This is one of the reasons Nissan , or Toyota , or Mitsubishi don't even tenner because they don't want to be making parts for twenty or so years . Mercedes are one of only a few prepared to do so . After Afghanistan the Land Rovers were found to be no good when IEDs went off ,giving on protection to the occupants , So even the British Army has had to look at there function in a war zone . I must agree on a lot of other comments that have also been made on this post ,cheers Jim...

[ugu80]

Fans of Defenders may also appreciate this: looks too good to be true (condition, not make).
1982 Toyota Landcruiser HJ60RG Deluxe (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Toyota-Landcruiser-1982/SSE-AD-2720909/?Cr=115&sdmvc=1)

[Pickles2]

Fans of Defenders may also appreciate this: looks too good to be true (condition, not make).
1982 Toyota Landcruiser HJ60RG Deluxe (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Toyota-Landcruiser-1982/SSE-AD-2720909/?Cr=115&sdmvc=1)
DEFINITELY, only driven by a little old lady, to Church on Sundays.
Pickles.

[gusthedog]

Good to see you've based all that on facts :o. Pat

I based it on personal experience mixed with some facts. I like land rovers, don't get me wrong, but are you seriously saying that land rovers are generally reliable and that defenders don't leak, don't have a hand brake that jabs you in the leg, have no room for your right arm, that the puma's don't have weak rear diffs, or a lack of concern for driver safety?

Or was it my rant against an old world super power that got your goat?:D

[PAT303]

All I will say is both my defenders have been more dependable than my cruisers or hiluxs,yes my 16 year old Tdi leaks,in real world accidents the defender stands up well and I haven't broken a rear diff.I like the defender because of what it is,an old world hand assembled vehicle,most defender owners would feel the same. Pat

[ProjectDirector]

All I will say is both my defenders have been more dependable than my cruisers or hiluxs,yes my 16 year old Tdi leaks,in real world accidents the defender stands up well and I haven't broken a rear diff.I like the defender because of what it is,an old world hand assembled vehicle,most defender owners would feel the same. Pat
Agree with your statement, and typically all old cars tend to have their issues and depends how well you look after them.

[PAT303]

One more thing,I drove my mother in law to the airport in the Tdi the other day,we hadn't gone 5k down the road when she said ''you can hear everything working in this thing can't you''.Classic. Pat

[spudfan]

One more thing,I drove my mother in law to the airport in the Tdi the other day,we hadn't gone 5k down the road when she said ''you can hear everything working in this thing can't you''.Classic. Pat
EVERYTHING must have been working very quietly as you could hear the mother-in-law.:p:p

[jakeslouw]

Since I have bought the Defender, a million questions pop to mind. One of them that never stops bothering me is why didn't Land Rover improve on it in leaps and bounds over the past 2 decades??

My only uneducated guess is if they did, then it may have an impact on sales of the Disco. Or maybe they make good money from such an old design with minimal financial outlay and don't feel they need to as every Defender sold must certainly be a profit would it not???

Any thought's from those who understand Land Rover better then me.

Because nobody at LR had the vision, drive and creativity to make it happen after 1990.

"You can have only one engine and one gearbox".

But the Series vehicles had engine options, petrol or diesel, 2.0, 2.25.
Even the early 90/110 had petrol and diesel engine options. Early Defenders were petrol AND diesel.

How much work to drop in a 3.9/4.0/4.6V8 and auto box in the Defender as well as offering the 300TDi or TD5?

None: most of the work had been done on the Disco 1 & 2!

Airbags: could have been incorporated in the Puma dash redesign.

Side impact: well there is place behind the bottom sills outboard of the outriggers for side impact bars, and the doors would need minor interior bracing.

LR should have followed Jeep's lead : Jeep has consistently and successfully updated the Wrangler over the last 20 years, and the Wrangler is now more successful than ever before. Auto and manual box, standard and Rubicon trim and drivetrain options, petrol V6 and CRDi engine options with rumours of a 5.7 Hemi coming.

But the Luddites on the LR forums will never admit this.

[Dougal]

Because nobody at LR had the vision, drive and creativity to make it happen after 1990.

"You can have only one engine and one gearbox".

But the Series vehicles had engine options, petrol or diesel, 2.0, 2.25.
Even the early 90/110 had petrol and diesel engine options. Early Defenders were petrol AND diesel.

How much work to drop in a 3.9/4.0/4.6V8 and auto box in the Defender as well as offering the 300TDi or TD5?

None: most of the work had been done on the Disco 1 & 2!

Airbags: could have been incorporated in the Puma dash redesign.

Side impact: well there is place behind the bottom sills outboard of the outriggers for side impact bars, and the doors would need minor interior bracing.

LR should have followed Jeep's lead : Jeep has consistently and successfully updated the Wrangler over the last 20 years, and the Wrangler is now more successful than ever before. Auto and manual box, standard and Rubicon trim and drivetrain options, petrol V6 and CRDi engine options with rumours of a 5.7 Hemi coming.

But the Luddites on the LR forums will never admit this.

V8 auto defenders were produced in limited numbers. You could also have whatever you wanted through LRSV.

I think fuel economy standards and previously engine displacement tax bands were the big reasons. 2495cc engines when the next tax band is 2,500+ etc.
Remember Jeep had very different market conditions and regulations in the US compared to LR in Europe.

[jakeslouw]

V8 auto defenders were produced in limited numbers. You could also have whatever you wanted through LRSV.

I think fuel economy standards and previously engine displacement tax bands were the big reasons. 2495cc engines when the next tax band is 2,500+ etc.
Remember Jeep had very different market conditions and regulations in the US compared to LR in Europe.

PRECISELY: Euro-centric marketing. Let's just ignore the rest of the world. And now they sit with the result of this blinkered conservative vision.

The NAS spec auto-box V8 Defenders are BIG BUCK items in the US.
The BMW engined South African versions are collectors items.

LR had access to CKD and partial KD factories in Australia and Africa, they could have gone mental.

South Africa is still one of the biggest producers of RHD vehicles for export: up until recently, all the RHD BMW Series 3 and Toyota Corollas sold in Australia were made in South Africa. LR South Africa could have and would have built whatever LR HQ wanted.

In fact, our early 90 and 110s were built to a much higher standard than the rubbish that came out of Solihull at one stage.

[Reads90]

Main reason they have not changed it is because most safety laws work on the firewall

If the firewall on a car is changed then it has to have a new set of safety rules and regs. Then has to be retested and crash tested

I was told this at Solihull by the land rover techs

The defender sold today is working on 1960's S11 specs and safety rules. Due to the firewall / bulkhead being the same.


This is why the bulkhead was not made wider for the defender and they just put on arches.


Laws around the world are changing and one by one less places the defender can be sold. Hence why it needs to be replaced.

[jakeslouw]

Not sure I agree. The crumple zones are all in front of the bulkhead.
The bulkhead would be the last area damaged in a frontal impact.

The Puma was a bulkhead change: the whole dash area was changed as well as the footwell profile.

The real reason why no bulkhead changes have been made, IMHO, is because LR refuses to spend the money on retooling for a vehicle they have had earmarked for redundancy for at least 10 years already.

[Reads90]

Not sure I agree. The crumple zones are all in front of the bulkhead.
The bulkhead would be the last area damaged in a frontal impact.

The Puma was a bulkhead change: the whole dash area was changed as well as the footwell profile.

The real reason why no bulkhead changes have been made, IMHO, is because LR refuses to spend the money on retooling for a vehicle they have had earmarked for redundancy for at least 10 years already.

No the dash was changed the bulkhead might have a hole here and there but the overall size and dimensions of the bulkhead stayed the same

[jakeslouw]

No the dash was changed the bulkhead might have a hole here and there but the overall size and dimensions of the bulkhead stayed the same

Still doesn't explain why the bulkhead is critical to crash tests.

And FFS, it's just a piece of mild steel welded in a jig. It's not rocket science.

Changing the bulkhead, assuming the basic mount points and general profile for the front wings and doors are retained, wouldn't affect the production line much at all. Considering that the thing is built by hand, it would take a few days training to get the factory fitter's heads around the new process.

[Tombie]

Your missing the point - the Defender has NO forward crumple zones.
The firewall is considered the safety barrier - as legislated at the time and is certified to that standard.
To change that component requires complete recertification.

[Reads90]

Your missing the point - the Defender has NO forward crumple zones.
The firewall is considered the safety barrier - as legislated at the time and is certified to that standard.
To change that component requires complete recertification.

That right, that is what I was trying to get across.

As said this is what I was told by land rover 15 years ago at the factory.

[jakeslouw]

That right, that is what I was trying to get across.

As said this is what I was told by land rover 15 years ago at the factory.

So if LR had been alert in 1999, they could have done the design changes and recertification back then and averted the problem? Or am I missing something?

[Reads90]

So if LR had been alert in 1999, they could have done the design changes and recertification back then and averted the problem? Or am I missing something?

No your right but Land Rover mentality " If it ain't broke don't fix it " :-)

[Reads90]

But they did try something's :-)

I knew a bloke who worked at one of the biggest airbag manufactures in the Uk and he told me in the 90's Land Rover talked them with putting an airbag ina. Defender. They were all up for it until Land Rover Handed them the steering wheel and then they laughed and handed it back. Land Rover weren't willing to change anything around the steering wheel they wanted them to just fit an airbag into the existing steering wheel. End of test.

[jakeslouw]

No your right but Land Rover mentality " If it ain't broke don't fix it " :-)

Disagree. Their mentality is "Throw the baby out with the bathwater".

They've gone ballistic on upgrading softroaders and Chelsea tractors but they won't touch the Defender? :mad:

[Reads90]

Disagree. Their mentality is "Throw the baby out with the bathwater".

They've gone ballistic on upgrading softroaders and Chelsea tractors but they won't touch the Defender? :mad:

They just out it into the too hard basket and left it as a job for later on

[PAT303]

Disagree. Their mentality is "Throw the baby out with the bathwater".

They've gone ballistic on upgrading softroaders and Chelsea tractors but they won't touch the Defender? :mad:

Because they sell every single softroader and Chelsea tractor they make which earns them money which they spend designing new vehicles like the replacement defender ;). Pat

[Scallops]

I must say, my learned colleagues, you have collectively missed the point - look back to your roots - the Series 1 was darn near perfect, so how much was really ever going to change?

[rar110]

The following news article says 2017 for the new Defender. However, not a priority ATM.

http://m.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/land_rover_discovery_sport_will_kill_off_freelande r_83344_20140428

[frantic]

No your right but Land Rover mentality " If it ain't broke don't fix it " :-)

Problem was and is that LR knew It was broken in the mid 90's as the US and" eventually EU wanted aairbags as well as ABS that's why they stopped NAS spec exports. How long did it take for the opposition to get both? All those fleet and export sales gone.
They went from making about 40,000per year in the 90's to the last few years of 12,000.

[Dougal]

But they did try something's :-)

I knew a bloke who worked at one of the biggest airbag manufactures in the Uk and he told me in the 90's Land Rover talked them with putting an airbag ina. Defender. They were all up for it until Land Rover Handed them the steering wheel and then they laughed and handed it back. Land Rover weren't willing to change anything around the steering wheel they wanted them to just fit an airbag into the existing steering wheel. End of test.

By 1995 they had airbags in the disco and RRC. Their steering wheels weren't too far different.

[PAT303]

Toyota spend millions fitting airbags to series cruisers but are still going to discontinue the model,there is only so much you can do with an old design.The Defender and Cruiser are from the same generation and both really show their age compared to new makes and models,as mentioned defender sales are declining but so are LC sales,the troopy and more so the dual cab sales are so slow you have to pre order them,the reason is you can buy a dual cab from VW,Isuzu,Ford etc that are half the price but give twice the performance with a third of the fuel use and are comfortable,trayback LC sales are mostly fleet sales but even that is going to stop as they don't meet mine specs now.The Defender replacement will be a clean sheet design from scratch with all the current safety/pollution regs built in,not added later and IMHO LR will nail it,LR aren't silly,they know all too well that Defender owners are long time LR buyers that have owned previous models,they have not forgotten were LR came from. Pat

[AndyG]

Pat,
Hope your right

Whoever gets a new gen utilitarian work horse to market first could win big. I have seen nothing about Toyota or Nissan pursuing this niche when their current models expire.

[PAT303]

Toyota are replacing the LC with the Hilux,it is compliant with all the regs. Pat

[jakeslouw]

Problem was and is that LR knew It was broken in the mid 90's as the US and" eventually EU wanted aairbags as well as ABS that's why they stopped NAS spec exports. How long did it take for the opposition to get both? All those fleet and export sales gone.
They went from making about 40,000per year in the 90's to the last few years of 12,000.

Yes my point exactly. Now if they'd pulled their finger out, they'd still be at 40,000 + units per year.

In South Africa, the guys love horsepower. Nissan V9Xs and Toyota V8 TDs get chipped straight off the factory floor. A 2.2 van engine just doesn't hack it. Ford 3.2 T6 is becoming very popular. So if LR ZA slapped a 3.2 Durotorq engine with the uprated MT82 into the Defender, they'd instantaneously double their sales.
If LR ZA offered a Defender with say a nice 3.6 Petrol V6 @ around 190kW, they'd TREBLE their sales. Get the picture?

[Dougal]

Toyota are replacing the LC with the Hilux,it is compliant with all the regs. Pat

The next hilux or the last of the current?

[jakeslouw]

By 1995 they had airbags in the disco and RRC. Their steering wheels weren't too far different.

Yep. As I said earlier: Jeep has kept the Wrangler inside spec and up to date, the JK has been in production now since 2007 with no end in sight.

The TJ was the previous model and also had a 10 year production run.

I reckon if LR had pulled their heads out their butts and had a 10 year plan for each model they would have stayed on track.

The early 90/110 we can call Model 1: 1984 - 1989
The second gen would have been 1989 - 1998
Gen III would have been 1998 - 2007
We would be on Gen IV now.

[PAT303]

Yes my point exactly. Now if they'd pulled their finger out, they'd still be at 40,000 + units per year.

In South Africa, the guys love horsepower. Nissan V9Xs and Toyota V8 TDs get chipped straight off the factory floor. A 2.2 van engine just doesn't hack it. Ford 3.2 T6 is becoming very popular. So if LR ZA slapped a 3.2 Durotorq engine with the uprated MT82 into the Defender, they'd instantaneously double their sales.
If LR ZA offered a Defender with say a nice 3.6 Petrol V6 @ around 190kW, they'd TREBLE their sales. Get the picture?

As per my earlier post,the replacement Defender will have all that ;). Pat

[PAT303]

The next hilux or the last of the current?

The latest has 5 star rating which is what the big miners want,after they have now lowered most site speed limits to 40km/hr :confused:. Pat