Stumpy R380 transplant to SIIB F/C

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If you just need to swap out the primary pinion in an R380 box would that be a task to tackle without many special tools.

I rebuilt my first series Landy box as a 14 year old in 1970, but am rather more timid with grey hair. ;)

[chopper]

Sorry for a slight hijack. But if you just need to swap out the primary pinion would that be a task to tackle without many special tools.

I rebuilt my first series Landy box as a 14 year old in 1970, but am rather more timid with grey hair. ;)

They use Grey Silicone these days , grey hair is old hat , don't use it , it will leak !

[Lotz-A-Landies]

They use Grey Silicone these days , grey hair is old hat , don't use it , it will leak !:confused: :D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Back to the question.

Is changing over one primary pinion to a different primary pinion on an R380 a job that can be attended without special tools?

[Psimpson7]

Hey Diana,

I am assuming you mean what I would call the input shaft?

If so, you need to almost totally strip the box to do it, so basically you need any tools you would need to do the rebuild. You can do it without the special LR tools but you will still need pullers etc etc

Rgds
Pete

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hey Diana,

I am assuming you mean what I would call the input shaft?

If so, you need to almost totally strip the box to do it, so basically you need any tools you would need to do the rebuild. You can do it without the special LR tools but you will still need pullers etc etc

Rgds
PeteHi Pete

Yes I mean the input shaft. Looking at the images on various rebuilds, AFAIK/can see, I don't need to dismantle the mainshaft or sandwich plate, just remove the mainshaft and layshaft still attached to the sandwich plate, then change over the input shaft/pinion. If I use a new bearing on the pinion hopefully all I'll need is new gaskets/sealant and to press out/press in the bearing in the front of the housing.

At least it will give me an opportunity to inspect the condition of the box.

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi with all my CD manuals, it seems that I don't have a parts catalogue for the R380.

Does anyone have the part number for the bearing on the input shaft/pinion? D1 V8 box.

[wrinklearthur]

Hi with all my CD manuals, it seems that I don't have a parts catalogue for the R380.

Does anyone have the part number for the bearing on the input shaft/pinion? D1 V8 box.

I assume that the bearing you referred to is the one fitted on the shaft itself,

Discovery I 1989-1998, Bearing Taper Roller -----------, Part number RTC6751 -------- note: Suffix J
Discovery I 1989-1998, Bearing Taper Roller -----------, Part number TZZ100190 ------ note: Suffix K .

Shaft primary manual transmission -------, Part Number FTC5044 -------- note: V8 Suffix J (from (V) MA 081992
Shaft primary manual transmission -------, Part Number TUD102340 ------ note: V8 Suffix K

Discovery II 1999-2003, Bearing Taper Roller 35.0 x 72.0, Part number TZZ100190

Shaft primary manual transmission -------, Part Number TUD102340 ------ note: V8 Petrol.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks Arthur

Yery complete answer but makes an issue for me. I'm changing the input pinion from the original to the Ashcroft short bellhousing kit I wonder if there are any differences?

I can see some micrometer work coming up.

Diana :)

[wrinklearthur]

Thanks Arthur

Yery complete answer but makes an issue for me. I'm changing the input pinion from the original to the Ashcroft short bellhousing kit I wonder if there are any differences? I can see some micrometer work coming up.

Hi Diana

Look at the diameter and pitch of the teeth on the primary shaft's gear.
I'm not sure about this, but I believe that the primary shafts are not interchangeable between the J to K/L Suffix because of the difference in the pitch of the teeth on the upgraded Layshaft.

I'm working at the present towards reconditioning a batch of R 380 gearboxes but still could be months away from learning about whether there are any differences.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Arthur

In your collection of manuals, would you perhaps have the one for the Land Rover 90 2.5 diesel (not 200Tdi) with the short R380? Just interested in the input bearing on that. Addit: Emailed Ashcrofts, the input gear is compatible and the bearing is the same one as the original D1 box. They are so very very helpful at Ashcrofts, Thanks Ashtrans! :BigThumb:

The D1 box I have is 53A with Suffix J

Diana

[Lotz-A-Landies]

As of Friday afternoon, the R380 box is currently sitting on the bench, cleaned bellhousing removed and partially stripped. If I'm taking the sandwich plate out of the box, is it possible to replace the B type selector yoke with an A type selector quadrant at the same time without taking the sandwich plate apart?

This image borrowed from Prestos rebuild (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-members-rides-projects/173877-prestos-1994-defender-110-a-7.html#post2034677) shows the Defender A type selector top arrowed in blue while the green circle is where the B type Disco selector top and gearstick is located.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/7.jpg

The A type would be better for my project as I'll have to modify the floor with a hump using the B type selector top.

Diana :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Bump
... If I'm taking the sandwich plate out of the box, is it possible to replace the B type selector yoke with an A type selector quadrant at the same time without taking the sandwich plate apart? ...
Is this setector mechanism (and top) exchange possible in this scenario?

BTW
A type = Defender
B type = Disco

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Was unable to get any gaskets and bearings as the usual suspects were closed on Saturday. So instead of leaving the box open to the elements for a week I took the time to assemble the box with the LT230 and the short bellhousing.

The overall length of the short R380/LT230 combination (without brake drum/disk) is 120mm longer than the original Series F/C box with an additional 29mm for the bolts in the flange. There is only 150mm clearance behind the original drum and the cross member so fitting the box onto the engine will be problematic.

The decision that has tobe made is whether to move the cross member or cut out the prop shaft hole through the crossmember the same as in the 110.

Gear linkage
The remote control for the gear linkage is a simple replicator bar which takes up a lot of room. The Discovery 1 (53a) gearstick is 300mm further from the bellhousing than the original box. This will require a lot of modification to the floor, not the least being having to raise the floor to clear the replicator bar. Very not ideal.

Am considering changing to a Defender type A selector if I can find one (as above). My latest idea is to cut the type A remote shaft where the transfer shift mechanism would normally sit, add a nylon bush and seal to the housing and then fit a shaft mechaism using uni joints from steering system. Then mount the original Defender gear selector ball previously amputated from the selector top up at the drivers position.

Any thoughts?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just thought I'd post up some images of the original gearbox setup taken today to explain everything.

The gearbox cover in place and removed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/166.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/167.jpg

Floor removed and view to rear showing brake drum and floor support.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/168.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/169.jpg

Cross member/prop shaft and space to rear of current box.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/170.jpg https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/171.jpg

Positions of R380 gearsticks of Disco and Defender (Defer aprox no sample to measure)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/172.jpg

BTW dismantled the box today, no problems with any of the gearsets just need new bearing seals etc.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The box is currently stripped and the rear layshaft gear removed. The old primary pinion is off and the new short one waiting for the new bearings that I have on the back seat of the car.

I don't care how many bits I need, I just want all the ones I need to fit a Defender/'95 RRC selector top on a Disco 1 R380. If I can't modify the Disco internal selector rod by grinding a knotch for the grub screw, then that means I also need the internal selector rod from a Defender/'95 RRC R380 "A type selector".

Which means most of the things seen in the attached images. (for the other mods see: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=2075396#post2075396)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A couple of graphics indicating my plan for the modification of the selector top.

[chopper]

Selector Rail Adapter & Yolk - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/r380-rebuild-kits/selector-rail-adapter-yolk.html)

you still lack the support in the casting in the tail casing

[landrover dave]

As of Friday afternoon, the R380 box is currently sitting on the bench, cleaned bellhousing removed and partially stripped. If I'm taking the sandwich plate out of the box, is it possible to replace the B type selector yoke with an A type selector quadrant at the same time without taking the sandwich plate apart?

This image borrowed from Prestos rebuild (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-members-rides-projects/173877-prestos-1994-defender-110-a-7.html#post2034677) shows the Defender A type selector top arrowed in blue while the green circle is where the B type Disco selector top and gearstick is located.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/7.jpg

The A type would be better for my project as I'll have to modify the floor with a hump using the B type selector top.

Diana :)
You can swap the selector types by just unbolting them and bolting the replacement on, just make sure the selector pin engages the yoke on selector rail.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Unfortunately it isn't as easy as that, the selector rod inside the box is shorter in the Disco version than the Defender version. The fitting on the end of the selector rod is also different.

I have had to bite the bullet and purchase the conversion kit from Ashcrofts

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A bit of a quandary today?

Pressed the new primary pinion bearing and cup to the mainshaft end bearing.

The problem is that the short pinion has a much longer shoulder for the bearing (blue lines) and leaves 6mm proud of the bearing. Not present on the V8 pinion.

secondly the space behind the synchro taper and the gear is narrower on the short pinion when compared to the V8. (red lines) When the pinion is on the mainshaft the gear meshing on the pinion is offset to the rear of the box.

Any ideas.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Seems that the Pinion I have is for a K or later suffix box. :BigCry:

[wrinklearthur]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/siia-siib-forward-controls/72255d1391333170-r380-transplant-siib-f-c-20140202_150502-edit_055reduced.jpg


A bit of a quandary today?

Pressed the new primary pinion bearing and cup to the mainshaft end bearing.

The problem is that the short pinion has a much longer shoulder for the bearing (blue lines) and leaves 6mm proud of the bearing. Not present on the V8 pinion.

secondly the space behind the synchro taper and the gear is narrower on the short pinion when compared to the V8. (red lines) When the pinion is on the mainshaft the gear meshing on the pinion is offset to the rear of the box.

Any ideas.

Hi Diana

Look at the diameter and pitch of the teeth on the primary shaft's gear.
I'm not sure about this, but I believe that the primary shafts are not interchangeable between the J to K/L Suffix because of the difference in the pitch of the teeth on the upgraded Layshaft.

I'm working at the present towards reconditioning a batch of R 380 gearboxes but still could be months away from learning about whether there are any differences.
.

We had better find out which housing ( J,K or L suffix ) that replacement shaft originally belonged to.
As it would only go with the correct matching layshaft.
I may be stuck with the same problem as I have a new 'short' primary input shaft supposedly to let me convert a TD5 'L' suffix box to a 300 TDi 'L' .
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have a j suffix box. Have been in contact with Dave Ashcroft and he feels that the pinion I have is for a K/L box. I'm about to purchase the J suffix pinion.

The J suffix has about 3mm or 4mm from the front edge of the sinchro to the rear edge of the gear. The K/L suffix this distance is only about 2mm or less. The K/L gear is wider and the main pinion bearing surface longer by about 3mm.

If you have the wrong one, we can swap and I'll cancel my order with Ashcrofts. I have already pressed on the bearing and cone, but given that it's probably wrong it will have to come back off.

[wrinklearthur]

I have a j suffix box. Have been in contact with Dave Ashcroft and he feels that the pinion I have is for a K/L box. I'm about to purchase the J suffix pinion.

The J suffix has about 3 mm or 4 mm from the front edge of the synchro to the rear edge of the gear. The K/L suffix this distance is only about 2 mm or less.

The K/L gear is wider and the main pinion bearing surface longer by about 3 mm.

If you have the wrong one, we can swap and I'll cancel my order with Ashcrofts. I have already pressed on the bearing and cone, but given that it's probably wrong it will have to come back off.

I'll have a look for you tomorrow and report back.

If yours is for the shorter bell housing to suit a 'L', we may still not have a match as mine is for the 300 TDi 'L suffix' .
I am looking at the R380's fitted to some of the car's and seeing what bell housing were fitted to them, it's a bit hard as the detail isn't there, but again I think they are a shorter length then the Land Rover 300 TDi.

Thanks for those measurements.
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

My pinion is this one PINION - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/short-bellhousing-stumpy-r380-parts/pinion.html)

For this: Short Bellhousing R 380 Parts - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/short-bellhousing-r-380-parts.html) Sometimes called the "Stumpy" R380.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/1166.jpg

It is designed to replace an LT77 with an R380 behind a 2.5 N.A. or 200TDi in a Land Rover 90. AFAIK it has nothing to do with a TD5. We are using this one because it is the shortest R380 possible and only increases the length by 120mm over the original series box.

(Although I'm using it behind a Rover 6cyl so both the Rover 6cyl flywheel housing and the Ashcrofts bellhousing have been modified to mate each other. More importantly is that I want to be able to return the vehicle to it's original configuration so vehicle/chassis modifications if/any are being kept to the absolute minimum. The front axle assembly has already been converted to CV swivels.)

[wrinklearthur]

Best I stick to the name that Ashcroft calls it, 'Stumpy'.

The 300 TDi 'L suffix' input pinion I have, is way longer than a 'Stumpy input pinion'. :(

The TD5 'L suffix box I have, has a Stretched input pinion that is longer again and I will have that TD5 'Stretched input pinion' with the 'Stretched bell housing' spare after my conversion to the 300 TDi, but that information is of no use at all to your problem.

Then there is a difference between the boxes designated for Diesels and the Petrol V8's. :p

.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

All gets a little confusing, a diesel box may have had better ratios for my purpose, but I had the V8 box so decided to use it.

Next time I'll acquire a Defender suffix K or L R380 and that will solve a lot of problems (and use a 1982 Toyota Corona rear rotor :D ).

The project is worthwhile as it gives a 5 speed alternative to any series Landy without going outside the marque.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is becoming a damned expensive conversion! :BigCry:

I purchased the Ashcroft Stumpy kit unused off another AULRO member, it turns out the whole kit was for a Suffix K/L box.

So not only have I purchased the kit ($ AULRO member in-confidence) and the two new bearings to install it, the Defender selector top ($ AULRO member in-confidence) and Ashcroft B->A selector conversion kit $200. I have now had to purchase another pinion and front cover $400 (and 2 more bearings $45) and that's before the Maserati Biturbo brake rotor ($200).

It looks like I'll be seeing a 2nd mortgage in my future. :o

Diana :D

[wrinklearthur]

----- it turns out the whole kit was for a Suffix K/L box. -----

Diesel or V8?
Because that ratio difference is on the gear set between the input pinion and the it's mating gear on the layshaft.

Sell your 'J sufix ' box and get the correct L suffix box, or sell the incorrect parts of the kit on and get the correct replacements.

or just, just hide the lot in the back of the shed. :angel:

.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

According to Dave Ashcroft in the 50A-J and 53A-J the pinions are compatible?

[wrinklearthur]

According to Dave Ashcroft in the 50A-J and 53A-J the pinions are compatible?

I'm not going to argue with Dave as he has all that information right at his fingertips. So I have been mistaken about the compatibility of the pinion shafts and sorry for that.
Add info. After brushing up on my lack of knowledge, I found so far that those two type numbers ( 50A-J ( stumpy bell housing and 53A-J Short bell housing ) they have a reference to the layout type of the shift mechanism.
Ref; http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=6
Ref; http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/calc/ratio_calc.html


Different types of R 380
The manual boxes can be categorised as "Long Stick" as fitted to the Defender and "Short Stick" as fitted to the Disco.
If your serial number starts with any of the following then you have a longstick : 50A, 51A, 56A, 58A, 60A, 61A, 66A, 68A, 74A
If your serial number starts with any of the following then you have a shortstick : 53A, 55A, 63A, 67A, 69A, 73A
The longstick boxes come with the top casting that the gearlever and turret bolt to but you will need to remove the following from the old unit : the bellhousing and dowels, transfer case dowels, gearlever and turret and diff lock pivot bolt if fitted.

The shortstick boxes come with remote top assembly with reverse switch fitted but you will need to swap over the bellhousing & dowels, transfer case dowels, extension gearstick and diff lock pivot bolt.
The only exception to the above is the 64A and 65A, these come less bellhousing and less remote shifter.

Ref; http://www.freewebs.com/tmtransmissions/


Gearbox identification stamped on flat oval surface next to the drain bung.

http://www.freewebs.com/tmtransmissions/land%20roved%20id.bmp

The first two numbers (prefix) denote the vehicle model application.
The last letter (suffix) denotes the gearbox type.

DISCOVERY CODES:
Prefix 55 suffix G/H 200 TDI LT77. Prefix 55 suffix J 300 TDI R380. Prefix 59 suffix G/H V8 LT77. Prefix 73 suffix L TD5 R380.
---------
DEFENDER CODES:
Prefix 56 suffix G/H 200 TDI LT77. Prefix 56 suffix J 300 TDI R380. Prefix 68 suffix L TD5 R380.

I will have a look amongst my books and see where I slipped up on the teeth counts though. still searching
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Arthur

I'll be very displeased if the V8 53A suff J box is not compatible, apart from the original purchase of the kit from Ben, I have now spent over $600 with Ashcrofts, and the purchase some years ago of the Disco box. I may have just as well dumped the suff J box and looked for a Suff K or L Defender box.

Diana

[wrinklearthur]

This is for
Short Primary Input Shaft As Used In Retro Fitted Land Rover 4 Wheel Drive R380 Suffix J Applications Into LT77 Applications. Suffix 44A Gearboxes (Alternative to 56A With Short Bell Housing).

Part Number - FTC5062
Tooth Count 22
Shaft Length 170mm
Spigot Dia 22mm
Notes:-

This Part Is Only Suitable For 4 Wheel Drive Applications, NOT Car Applications (Morgan, TVR, Kit Car etc.)
This Part Is Only Suitable For Suffix J Gearboxes And Is Designed For Diesel Applications, 22 Teeth & 22mm Spigot.
If Converting An R380 Unit To Fit Into LT77 Designed Application You May Need Other Parts Such As Bell Housing, Front Cover, Clutch Pivot Ball/Plate.
See Our Other Listings For More R380 Transmission Parts or Short Pinion for Suffix K & L Boxes


Ref;Land Rover Short Input Shaft Gear R380 Retro Conversion | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260389405575'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Primary Input Shaft For Land Rover 4 Wheel Drive V8 R380 Suffix J Applications

Tooth Count 22
Shaft Length ( -- ?? doesn't say!! )
Spigot Dia 19mm
Part Number - FTC5044

Fits :-

Defender V8 R380 Suffix J Gearbox
Discovery I V8 R380 Suffix J Gearbox
Range Rover V8 R380 Suffix J Gearbox
Notes:-

This Part Is Only Suitable For 4 Wheel Drive Applications, NOT Car Applications (Morgan, TVR, Kit Car etc.)

This Part Is Only Suitable For V8 Suffix J Gearboxes. See Our Other Listings For Later K,L, and M Suffix Boxes & More R380 Transmission Parts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/965.jpg

The measurements for Standard length Primary Input Shaft I that have are;
The shaft has a nominal length of 300 mm,
The width of the gear is 30 mm,
The gap between the gear and the end piece is 2 mm,
The Spigot Dia 22 mm
and the tooth count is 22 teeth.

.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Arthur

I don't know what you're pointing out as both the diesel and V8 pinions seem to have a 22 tooth count.

I'm using the spiggot bush for the series the same one it turns out as used on the coil sprung 2.5 and tdi diesels. The flywheel will be the series flywheel, but the tdi200 clutch pressure plate and friction plate (130)

Diana

[wrinklearthur]

I don't know what you're pointing out as both the diesel and V8 pinions seem to have a 22 tooth count.
Hi Diana

A few post's back I said that I was mistaken about the tooth count, both V8 and Diesel input pinion shafts are 22 Teeth, the difference is in the tooth count of the clusters.
The interesting thing there in those pictures is the gap between the gear and the end of the input pinion although I haven't found a picture of the 'L' suffix to compare the 'J' suffix with yet.

I could take a photo of mine ( 'L' suffix ) but the process of displaying one photo on here is painfully slow for me using my card out of the Canon then downloading to a fresh folder on the laptop and then resizing the wanted file then attaching it to AULRO and then opening up the thumbnail to save as a URL on the post. :eek:


I'm using the spiggot bush for the series the same one it turns out as used on the coil sprung 2.5 and tdi diesels. The flywheel will be the series flywheel, but the tdi200 clutch pressure plate and friction plate (130)
Good plan , I take it that the 200 TDi pressure plate has the same hole placements as the hole pattern in a Series flywheel ?

The spigot bush is the same part for all the engines from the 80" up to and including the TD5, except for the V8's, I haven't found out about the Puma engine yet.

Is the spigot bush, the soul of the Land Rover? :angel:
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

....

Is the spigot bush, the soul of the Land Rover? :angel:
.What does that say about the V8s? :D :D :D

Yes the stud pattern for the clutch on the flywheels are the same, in fact the only thing that changes between the original and the later diaphragm type is that the diaphragm types have 3 dowels while the earlier one only 2 dowels.

[wrinklearthur]

I don't know what you're pointing out as both the diesel and V8 pinions seem to have a 22 tooth count.
The interesting thing there in those pictures is the gap between the gear and the end of the input pinion I have gone back to using your photo as that does show both gap sizes and the different width of the gears.

Your photo.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/siia-siib-forward-controls/72255d1391333170-stumpy-r380-transplant-siib-f-c-20140202_150502-edit_055reduced.jpg

note the gap for the 'J' suffix shown here.
http://shared1.ad-lister.co.uk/GetImage.aspx?id=f1a946a6-3c94-488c-9a0a-d4d93f6ef9cb&num=1&dbid=1
.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The new J suffix pinion is due to be delivered tomorrow morning. I can measure that up tomorrow evening.

The K/L suffix one will have to wait until the weekend.