Oil pump casing...

[oldsalt]

Hi all - has anybody on here had a problem with their oil pump casing ?
It appears to be a "hot" topic on the UK site... have a look here - DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Oil pump casing (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic97369.html?highlight=timing+belt) - plus they talk about a big "seven year" service... I've never heard about it out here ... can anybody shed any light on this matter. My 07 only has 160k on it, so should I be getting the belts done ? I'd much rather spend a few dollars on preventative maintenance than risk an engine blowing up :o
Any way I thought I'd just ask and see what you guys think... over to you ...thanks.

[scarry]

Dunno about the oil pump,but yes the timing belts need to be done at 7yrs,or 160K.

Big job,but needs doing.

[Ean Austral]

When I bought my car I was told at 150,000ks it needed cam belt, and HP fuel pump belt as well.


From what I read a lot of people had issues after the belt had been replaced, maybe due to the retensioned belt the oil pump casing breaks causing engine failure.


Cheers Ean

[sheerluck]

For the sake of $150 or so, I'm going to be doing mine on my '07 in the next couple of weeks. I vaguely remember JC posting that he won't do a cambelt change without the oil pump being replaced.

[Ean Austral]

I think a lot of repair shops are now only quoting on the job with a new oil pump housing included and wont do the job if the customer wont replace the housing.


Think there is a step by step tutorial on the UK site from someone.


Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Both belts are done at 168,000km or at 7 years. It has been found that the oil pump housing can crack and then kill the engine - many service agents will not change the belts without doing the oil pump housing as they do not want to be responsible for the cost of a new engine - it is replaced with an upgraded version. Not all that expensive and good insurance.

Has been discussed on here a few times.

[oldsalt]

Thanks for all your input guys... I'll definitely be getting mine done very soon, just have to draw up a list of other little things to get done while it's in the shop... like that water pump "Y" fitting - plastic only lasts so long after all....
cheers

[Rich84]

Definitely worth doing - another guy in the UK (disco3.co.uk) had his housing fracture only a week or two ago - at only 34K miles!


DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Oil pump casing fractured after only 34,000 miles.... (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic107112.html)


This guy was super lucky in that somehow the thing hadn't sheared entirely!


Picked my pump up for 79 pounds and fitted myself. Not an overly difficult job. You need the lock tools or to find someone who has the lock tools for the flywheel and cam gears. Starter motor is probably the trickiest part of the job, but it can all be done in a day.

[CaverD3]

Or put your money to good use. :BigThumb:

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Support the oil pump casing investigation (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic107148.html)

[oldsalt]

My vehicle is in at MLR at the moment having it's belts changed (plus LOTS of other things) $$$$ ... and I've just been talking to Aaron (service team manager) about the "new" part number for the oil pump casing ... I've sent him a link to the discussion re this part plus a copy of the photographs of the old & new parts... so hopefully this helps them in dealing with my car.

I certainly don't want to come across as "trying to teach them how to suck eggs" but I've occasionally found that I pick up information re "parts" etc from the various forums that the dealers are "unaware" of and I just want the right parts for the right job being fitted to my vehicle... after all I get to some very remote places in it and it's a long walk home if a bit breaks...:(

However I'm sure MLR will do their usual good job and I'll post up some pics of the old belts for your info later this week after I get them home...
cheers

[~Rich~]

My belts looked exactly the same as the new belts, no sign of any difference at all!

[Tombie]

Its a casting difference...

Early Casting:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/411.jpg

New Casting:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/412.jpg

Notice the additional webbing...

(Images from LR Automotive site: TdV6 Timing Belt (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d4901_Disco_3_Timing_Belt.html))

[oldsalt]

Yep - that's what I'm expecting to have fitted... I'll be checking the part numbers on the account when I pick it up.
cheers

[rocmic]

My car will be due for this service later this year. So I have been making enquiries. Been told that my car (MY 2008, but build Nov 2007) may or may not have the new style part.
One Independent will not do the job (if it is the old part) without replacing the cover. Another independent says only recommend replacement if there is already a specific issue.

Price difference just belts v belts and pump housing is around $600.
Cheers
Mike

[Rich84]

part no. is LR013487, plus they will have wanted to replace the front main seal and bolt.

Funny enough I've spent some time looking for similar failures on Ford, Jag and PSA vehicles and it doesn't seem to be a problem on those. The pump itself looks identical in the PSA 2.7 as the original pump on our LRs.


I would think theirs would be the same as ours, as the rest of the engine is manufactured in the same plant (Dagenham, UK). The replacement pump also has FoMoCo cast into it.


Just funny that it's an issue on LRs and not on the others... I don't understand why there'd be any more load on that particular part.
Unless perhaps since the engine constantly has to work harder, the HPFP is also working harder, which is putting more strain over the same period on the tensioner mounting.


Either way, very happy I replaced mine... Worth the peace of mind. FWIW my original pump had no fractures of any type and the internal gears had only slight polishing around the gear tips. Otherwise all the machine marks were still there. Very impressive for 190,000km - yes I did mine late - had to wait 3 months for my pump and did 20K in that time!

[oldsalt]

Just been contacted by MLR and they have the correct part and will be fitting it this afternoon - couldn't ask for better service...a very quick follow up to my e-mails and phone calls :) I'm happy so far.
cheers

[justinc]

Don't fret, only one now available is the upgraded one, strangely though it is the same part number as the old one IIRC.

Did one last week, a bit of a mission but nothing too strenuous. As said worst part (Apart from that damn fuel pump belt) was removing and refitting starter, and making the crank locking tool actually FIT....

Don't be scared, just leave yourself plenty of time.


JC

[Rich84]

Don't fret, only one now available is the upgraded one, strangely though it is the same part number as the old one IIRC.

Did one last week, a bit of a mission but nothing too strenuous. As said worst part (Apart from that damn fuel pump belt) was removing and refitting starter, and making the crank locking tool actually FIT....

Don't be scared, just leave yourself plenty of time.


JC

I take it your crank locking tool was made the exact size of the hole it's meant to fit in as well?


I had to grind about .5mm off the radius with a die grinder to make mine fit. Seems like a ridiculous oversight!

[101RRS]

With my old Freelander, old drill bits of the right size could be used as the cam and crank locking tools.

With the TDV6 do you need the correct tool or can something else be used. If you correct tool is needed where can you get it locally and how much are they?

Cheers

Garry

[Rich84]

Paid about $160 for my set - Britpart - from Famous Four, but as I said I had to grind them down.


The crank lock tool uses the larger outer diameter to locate itself snugly into a hole just about where the starter motor fits, and the smaller inner pin/diameter to locate into a hole in the flywheel/flex plate. If you have a metal lathe that can do high tensile steel and a welder, there's no reason you couldn't replicate the tool yourself. As you said, you could easily use drillbits or screwdrivers for the cam locks.

[justinc]

Flywheel Locking Tools and Camshaft Timing Pins (TDV6), Mark's Garage for Land Rovers (http://marksgarage.co.uk/flywheel-locking-tools-camshaft-timing-pins-tdv6-p-4372.html)

this is the set i use, and yes about 30 minutes in the vice with emery strip to make it actually fit. it seems they make them almost size for size, and then zinc plate them :mad:. idiots.


jc

[justinc]

With my old Freelander, old drill bits of the right size could be used as the cam and crank locking tools.

With the TDV6 do you need the correct tool or can something else be used. If you correct tool is needed where can you get it locally and how much are they?

Cheers

Garry

garry, see my post above with the link to the image, they are quite a complicated shape.

jc

[oldsalt]

Well I picked up my vehicle this afternoon, all the work done - correct part numbers etc... all the old bits are in a box for me to inspect (my timing belt looked very good) I had quite a few other little things done at the same time - and I'd have to say I'm very happy with MLR's work (as usual) - I've never seen the engine bay that clean :) or the car... heh heh
The car is running like a swiss watch... and I have that "peace of mind" smile :D
Off for a three day "exploring trip" up around Mansfield next week... looking forward to it.

cheers

[101RRS]

Flywheel Locking Tools and Camshaft Timing Pins (TDV6), Mark's Garage for Land Rovers (http://marksgarage.co.uk/flywheel-locking-tools-camshaft-timing-pins-tdv6-p-4372.html)

this is the set i use, and yes about 30 minutes in the vice with emery strip to make it actually fit. it seems they make them almost size for size, and then zinc plate them :mad:. idiots.


jc

I emailed Mark at Mark's Garage about these - his response was interesting.

"Hi Garry,
Some times the pins can be a bit tight. Most of the time
in our workshop we just use bolts and mark the crank with tipex.

Regards

Mark"

So maybe not so important to use the right pins. However, I will get them if I do the belts myself.

Garry

[Rich84]

You might be able to replace the timing belt like this (all other timing belts I've done have been more or less like this) but you can't only use 'tip-ex' if you're doing the oil pump.


The crank pulley has to come off, and by the way, it's not keyed to anything! It's a floating crank pulley, the only thing holding it still is the tension on the bolt! That can be a bit disconcerting when you think of how much load it is under - ie, the entire accessory drive and timing belt drive and HPFP.


So if you rattle the bolt undone without the engine locked up properly, the engine timing's going to go out, and I don't think it's going to be fun getting it back in again while not damaging anything.


I thoroughly recommend:
-removing the starter and locking the crank - a bit tricky but not as hard as you may think - ISTR it's a bit harder on Euro IV engines as the fuel cooler is in the way.
-locking the cams
-removing the bottom bolt with a breaker (mine was over a meter long) - throw the bolt away
-replace the oil pump/seal/new bolt - torque it up as per spec (very important) - 100nm + 90deg.
-install the new pulleys - 45nm on the large rollers and 24nm on the tensioner (but don't torque it down yet!) - use a new bolt on the tensioner. The new bolt has a pinched shank.
-install the belt - go from crank first -> tensioner -> passenger side cam -> roller -> driver side cam -> roller. Anyone who's done a T-belt on a V6/V8 knows that that's not quite as easy as it sounds. SO:-
-With the cam pins in place, you can undo the three bolts and release the cam sprockets to make it easier to install the belt - release the sprocket and rotate back (clockwise) enough to get the belt on (only a few mm), then rotate by hand as far as possible forward until the belt is tight (anti-clockwise), then nip the bolts up, then torque them down. Note there's no risk in doing this, the cam stays where it is with the pin and the sprockets move on slotted holes. This also becomes necessary due to the fact that since the crank pulley is floating, it may not always go back to exactly the same phase as it was before - ie for me it was half a tooth out and the cam pulleys HAD to be moved to get the new belt on to my satisfaction.
-Set the correct belt tension and torque the tensioner down to 24nm. Important for two reasons - (1) it's a small bolt and (2) you're installing the small bolt into the alloy of the oil pump, not the CGI block. So for that and the crank bolt, a good torque wrench is an absolute must on this job, no doing it up by feel like on some cars.
-Triple check torques.
-Rotate a few times by hand to check nothing is binding, etc. Officially you're meant to rotate two complete turns and then reinstall the locking pins/tools to make sure it's all good.

[BSM]

I spoke with a couple of a highly regarded and well known Melbourne LR service centres about replacing this Oil pump casing/ mounting bracket when doing the timing belt, and both said that they don't normally do it.

One of them said that his garage had never seen the cracked cam tensioner mount but was aware of a case at another service centre where it had cracked subsequent to a timing belt change because incorrect torques were used in the refit. He indicated that when this matter first came to their attention they rang around to the other service centres to see of the problem was being seen elsewhere and it was not.

He said the part in question should of course be inspected for any problems when replacing the timing belts, but replacement this part as a matter of course is not necessary. Perhaps others are hearing different information for their service centres. I'd be interested to know if so.

The impression that I got was that this fracture is a very rare occurance - but the probability can be increased if the timing belt replacement is not done strictly by the book.

[Tombie]

I spoke with a couple of a highly regarded and well known Melbourne LR service centres about replacing this Oil pump casing/ mounting bracket when doing the timing belt, and both said that they don't normally do it.

One of them said that his garage had never seen the cracked cam tensioner mount but was aware of a case at another service centre where it had cracked subsequent to a timing belt change because incorrect torques were used in the refit. He indicated that when this matter first came to their attention they rang around to the other service centres to see of the problem was being seen elsewhere and it was not.

He said the part in question should of course be inspected for any problems when replacing the timing belts, but replacement this part as a matter of course is not necessary. Perhaps others are hearing different information for their service centres. I'd be interested to know if so.

The impression that I got was that this fracture is a very rare occurance - but the probability can be increased if the timing belt replacement is not done strictly by the book.

For the sake of a few $$$ do you want to risk a $15k motor? :eek:

[101RRS]

Perhaps others are hearing different information for their service centres. I'd be interested to know if so.

Is my belt change is coming up I raised this with my local independent and he did not know of the issue and he said he had not had any issues. I said it had been happening and he was surprised - he was also surprised when I said that all new housing even under the old part number had the extra ribbing and that if there was no issue why would Landrover make the change in the part? I indicated he might want to look at this further as if one did fail after a belt change and the engine failed he would have to meet the cost of the new engine.

He didn't seem too concerned.

When I do get my belts changed I will be getting the housing changed to the new one - as Tombie said it is cheaper than a new engine.

Garry

[Fatso]

Is my belt change is coming up I raised this with my local independent and he did not know of the issue and he said he had not had any issues. I said it had been happening and he was surprised - he was also surprised when I said that all new housing even under the old part number had the extra ribbing and that if there was no issue why would Landrover make the change in the part? I indicated he might want to look at this further as if one did fail after a belt change and the engine failed he would have to meet the cost of the new engine.

He didn't seem too concerned.

When I do get my belts changed I will be getting the housing changed to the new one - as Tombie said it is cheaper than a new engine.

Garry

They have broken here and they are starting to break on a regular bassis now in the UK , I think as this usually happens after a belt change is the key though some have broken before the belt change , but in any case it has taken 6/7 years before this has serviced so I am not surprised as it is not well known yet . I did mine when changed the belts so hopefully I have dodged a bullet , visualy there was nothing wrong with my oil pump that I could see . Also why is LR coming to the party in the UK and paying for the outcome of these breakages in some instances at around the 160k mark .

[Grappler]

Was just about to do the belts on my TDV6 2.7
I have a new upgraded oil pump to install
Ive just reviewed the manual and removing the crankshaft front seal is in the procedure for the pump changeout. The seal removal requires special insertion tools, according to the manual. I do have a spare seal but not the insertion tools
Any advise before I jump into it?

Also the procedure is unclear about whereabouts of the orifice to fill the pump with 20ml of oil for priming.

[Grappler]

I also just noticed the need for a toothed flywheel locking tool 303-1123
I do have the flywheel timing tools 303-1117 but when you torque the crank pulley bolt to 100nm plus 90 deg. do you need the recommended tool 303-1123

Im worried the timing tool (1117) will sheer off, so will try and source the proper toothed tool. Any one got one they are willing to loan?

I will have to source a new crank bolt too.
I was intending the car to be out of service for the day, so Im glad I did some reading before ripping it apart.

[IvanR]

I also just noticed the need for a toothed flywheel locking tool 303-1123
I do have the flywheel timing tools 303-1117 but when you torque the crank pulley bolt to 100nm plus 90 deg. do you need the recommended tool 303-1123

Short answer Yes.
You will need to remove starter motor and lock the crankshaft via the flywheel as there is no key way or marks on the crank when you have removed the front timing belt cog to enable replacing the oil pump housing.

Ivan

[Grappler]

Short answer Yes.
You will need to remove starter motor and lock the crankshaft via the flywheel as there is no key way or marks on the crank when you have removed the front timing belt cog to enable replacing the oil pump housing.

Ivan

I have the tool that locks the flywheel to preserve the timing position. Its the strength of the tool to resist the torque when dealing with the crank pulley bolt, that Im concerned about
LR say to use a different (mandatory) toothed flywheel locking tool for that.
Some UK forum posts say they have used the non toothed timing flywheel tool without drama. I just measured the pin on the locking tool and its 10mm dia of the finest chinese steel.
Found the proper tool available uk but exxy https://jlrequipment.service-solutions.com/en-GB/Pages/ItemDetail.aspx?SKU=303-1123

I suppose there is one way to find out if its strong enough

Also need to get some info on whether the front crankshaft seal needs replacing, to do the oilpump, and if so are the special tools required

[shanegtr]

I've done the oil pump change out - the crank locking timing tool holds up fine for undoing the crank bolt and also for torquing it up. It may be only 10mm, but it does have a leverage advantage being on the outer edge of the flywheel.
New crank bolt is recommended
I used a big socket to drive the new oil seal in. Any bit of round steel the right size will do. You do need to be careful getting the seal onto the shaft in the first place as its a tight fit on the shaft and its actually quite a hard seal so could be easily damaged.

[Grappler]

Finally bit the bullet and started the timing belt/ oil pump change out this afternoon.
Like others have reported the locking tool didnt fit and needed machining plus the threaded part that picks op the starter bolt was 8 mm not 10 mm and needed retapping. OK since kit only cost $15. Ive managed to backoff the crank bolt without the special toothed tool.

When replacing the oil pump is it essential to drop the sump (oil pan extension)?

[shanegtr]

you shouldnt have to touch the sump

[Grappler]

you should have to touch the sump

Is that should? Did you also remove alternator?

[shanegtr]

sorry, typo, corrected now to shouldnt. I pulled the alternator out

[Grappler]

sorry, typo, corrected now to shouldnt. I pulled the alternator out

Thanks mate,
For a moment I thought you were agreeing with the manual. That would put me in a world of pain. To remove the sump means dropping the axle tube (again according to the manual) and I dont have the gaskets at hand

[Grappler]

The manual talks about priming the pump with 20ml oil. The picture is vague where the oil goes in. What did you do for priming

[LandyAndy]

In old fasioned oil pumps the trick was to pack the pump with vaseline.
Cant see vaseline being an issue on a modern motor.
Andrew