300tdi conversion

[Mykel1234]

Hi All. I originally posted this on the range rover classic, but no bites.

I'm looking to convert my 93 RRC to a 300tdi. Keen to chat to people who have done this conversion in Brisbane or any other part of Australia.

[superquag]

I've heard that the easy way is to buy a rolled D1 with a straight chassis...and just swap the bodies over. Especially if your Classic is still on air and not yet converted to coils. Easier than making the new engine mounts etc. You also get the LT230 transfer box which appears to be more in favour in the East than the Borg Warner with it's viscous coupling.

Don't know how you'd go with 'Engineering' and other legal issues over there...

But yes, it's the engine option Range Rovers should have had.

'95 Classic with working air suspension...and 2WD.:eek:

[87County]

I've heard that the easy way is to buy a rolled D1 with a straight chassis...and just swap the bodies over. Especially if your Classic is still on air and not yet converted to coils. Easier than making the new engine mounts etc. You also get the LT230 transfer box which appears to be more in favour in the East than the Borg Warner with it's viscous coupling.

Don't know how you'd go with 'Engineering' and other legal issues over there...

But yes, it's the engine option Range Rovers should have had.

'95 Classic with working air suspension...and 2WD.:eek:

! ensure that the chassis is not on any WOVR.

[rangietragic]

Yes,from what i've read chassis swap.Still need an engineers cert. because even though classics in the u.k. had 300 tdi's they were never imported here.Can't see that would be more than a formality though.

[weeds]

you should start with having a chat with a certifier for the modification before you start.......that way you wont have to re-do anything

a guy around the corner has done two conversions.......

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Going from a Rover V8 to a diesel 300TDi should be way easy because the regs talk about increased capacity, going to a smaller capacity engine (without chassis mods) can (IIRC) be signed off by a blue slip inspector in NSW. Particularly as you are using components like the R380 and LT230 that were actually fitted to various model RRc.

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought the only engine mounts that were in a different position where those for the 4BD1 Isuzu? :confused:

Also, the Disco's have have chassis mount cracking problems that were never issues in the RRc, IMHO stick to the RRc chassis.

[weeds]

Going from a Rover V8 to a diesel 300TDi should be way easy because the regs talk about increased capacity, going to a smaller capacity engine (without chassis mods) can (IIRC) be signed off by a blue slip inspector in NSW. Particularly as you are using components like the R380 and LT230 that were actually fitted to various model RRc.

Excuse my ignorance, but I thought the only engine mounts that were in a different position where those for the 4BD1 Isuzu? :confused:

pretty sure the two around the corner need engine mounts relocated/welded in

[rrturboD]

I changed from VM & 5 speed to tdi300 & Auto. Needed engineering for engine mounts repositioned to suit the tdi. (Engineering was not an issue)
Have a look at Land Rover conversions - M&D Engineering (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/index.php?act=faq)
and may be worth investigating their kits without engines ... no engineering as no chassis changes.
I'd recommend at least a 1" body lift, so the firewall easily clears the rocker cover on the tdi300...

[weeds]

I changed from VM & 5 speed to tdi300 & Auto. Needed engineering for engine mounts repositioned to suit the tdi. (Engineering was not an issue)
Have a look at Land Rover conversions - M&D Engineering (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/index.php?act=faq)
and may be worth investigating their kits without engines ... no engineering as no chassis changes.
I'd recommend at least a 1" body lift, so the firewall easily clears the rocker cover on the tdi300...

I must have another look under the bonnets of my mates......pretty sure the cover clears the firewall no problem without a body lift

[uninformed]

Mykel, have you considered a Td5?

[87County]

Unless you're in love with your RR, the simplest, easiest (& cheapest) method of changing the engine/gearbox is to sell the RR and buy a good mid 90s D1 300td1 auto ... :)

[101RRS]

If you use a 300tdi disco chassis you may have compliance issues with the 93 RRC body. A 300TDI will be a 95My or later and a whole lot of new ADRS came in in 94 - such as the need for side intrusion bars in the doors and a couple of other things that I cannot recall at the moment.

May not be an issue with engineering but if the relevant ADRs on the D1 300tdi compliance plate are checked as part of the process there could be an issue - however the relevant bits etc may be able to be transferred across - eg disco doors and locks should go across to the RRC body (I think).

Just a few things to consider as part of the process.

[Mykel1234]

you should start with having a chat with a certifier for the modification before you start.......that way you wont have to re-do anything

a guy around the corner has done two conversions.......

Thanks, are you able to provide the details of the the guy who has done the the conversion?

[Mykel1234]

Mykel, have you considered a Td5?

I did consider a TD5 transplant, but I believe this is a complicated conversion, especially with the electrical side.

[Mykel1234]

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions.

I inherited the RRC a few months back, I did consider leaving the 3.9 V8 in, however the motor has close to 400,000kms on it and its getting tired. So a good time to change the engine. The other thing that puts me off is the $1000+ rego here in Qld and the obvious fuel costs

I'm good on the tools and done a few engine rebuilds (other makes) and will do most of the work myself, except for the engineering work i.e. welding in the new motor mounts.

A question that I have is, will a 300tdi engine bolt straight up to the existing auto gearbox and transfer case, or is it best to get a 300tdi engine together with the gearbox and transfer case?

[Mykel1234]

I've heard that the easy way is to buy a rolled D1 with a straight chassis...and just swap the bodies over. Especially if your Classic is still on air and not yet converted to coils. Easier than making the new engine mounts etc. You also get the LT230 transfer box which appears to be more in favour in the East than the Borg Warner with it's viscous coupling.

Don't know how you'd go with 'Engineering' and other legal issues over there...

But yes, it's the engine option Range Rovers should have had.

'95 Classic with working air suspension...and 2WD.:eek:

Thanks mate, I did read about this in the forum. I'll do some quick research, however my concern is that the VIN number will be different on the chassis to that on the build plate and compliance plate.

[superquag]

I did consider a TD5 transplant, but I believe this is a complicated conversion, especially with the electrical side.

Yes indeed it is... Gavinwibrow here has one, bought it from the guy who did the deed. Lots of fun 'encouraging' the engine ECU to chat politely with the rest of the car...

300tDi and drive-train from a wrecked D1 might be the cheaper way to go. If you change the transfer to LT230 then you'll need the D1's front prop shaft anyway.

[camel_landy]

It should be fairly easy as Land Rover even used to supply an 'off-the'shelf' kit to do it too.

M

[Dougal]

If you use a 300tdi disco chassis you may have compliance issues with the 93 RRC body. A 300TDI will be a 95My or later and a whole lot of new ADRS came in in 94 - such as the need for side intrusion bars in the doors and a couple of other things that I cannot recall at the moment.

May not be an issue with engineering but if the relevant ADRs on the D1 300tdi compliance plate are checked as part of the process there could be an issue - however the relevant bits etc may be able to be transferred across - eg disco doors and locks should go across to the RRC body (I think).

Just a few things to consider as part of the process.

How is it different to installing a new chassis due to accident damage or corrosion?

I would think it's not unless you tried to register it as a disco with a rangie body. When clearly it's a rangie with a replacement chassis and engine.

[101RRS]

How is it different to installing a new chassis due to accident damage or corrosion?

I would think it's not unless you tried to register it as a disco with a rangie body. When clearly it's a rangie with a replacement chassis and engine.

The compliance requirements go with the Vin which is the chassis - ergo the new body (RRC) has to meet all the compliance requirements that the old body (D1) would have to meet. Even though it has a Range Rover body, in the eyes of the rego authorities it will always be a Disco - albiet modified.

There may be ways around this but they are very expensive. At the extreme, that is one of the reasons you rarely see legally fully registered series 1 bodies on later D1 chassis.

Garry

[Mykel1234]

I think i'm going to rule out the D1 chassis swap and stick with the original plan.

[Mykel1234]

Still one question though, can I use my existing auto gearbox and transfer case.

Will the 300tdi mate up to the auto box??????

[Dougal]

The compliance requirements go with the Vin which is the chassis - ergo the new body (RRC) has to meet all the compliance requirements that the old body (D1) would have to meet. Even though it has a Range Rover body, in the eyes of the rego authorities it will always be a Disco - albiet modified.

So how does that outfit deal with a replacement chassis?

Over here it's quite simple. Replacement chassis gets stamped with the VIN for the vehicle it's going in.
It doesn't matter if the replacement chassis is new or second-hand. As long as it meets all the requirements.

[101RRS]

Dougal - I have no idea but if you are using a chassis that is already in the system the modified vehicle takes on the identity of the chassis. To change the number stamped on the chassis is considered rebirthing here and is a no no.

If using an unstamped repro chassis then I assume the VIN would have to be allocated by the registration authorities - they may very well agree to stamp it with either Vin chassis number or give it a new one. I cannot speak for other states or NZ but where I live the identity check process which is done by the registration authorities is very secretive process and would most likely pick up any changes.

Cheers

Garry

[Dougal]

Dougal - I have no idea but if you are using a chassis that is already in the system the modified vehicle takes on the identity of the chassis. To change the number stamped on the chassis is considered rebirthing here and is a no no.

If using an unstamped repro chassis then I assume the VIN would have to be allocated by the registration authorities - they may very well agree to stamp it with either Vin chassis number or give it a new one. I cannot speak for other states or NZ but where I live the identity check process which is done by the registration authorities is very secretive process and would most likely pick up any changes.

Cheers

Garry

If you are stripping a de-registered vehicle for the chassis, there is no identity in the system. The donor vehicle is gone.

I understand that you're saying registering a rangie as a disco based on a newer chassis could cause problems. But I think that's a really pointless thing to even attempt.
There is absolutely no reason to do that and so many reasons not to.

I can't believe the aussie registration systems could be so backward that they cannot handle a replacement chassis. You own two series and very few of those have original chassis. How do they get on?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

...I can't believe the aussie registration systems could be so backward that they cannot handle a replacement chassis. You own two series and very few of those have original chassis. How do they get on?The Australian registration systems can and do accept the change of chassis, however it has to be a new unstamped chassis to which the original VIN is stamped and the number on the old chassis permanently obliterated.

As opposed to some countries, Australia considers the identity of a vehicle to rest with the chassis identity or the body in a monocoque design. If you swap a chassis for a second hand one, Australian authorities consider it a body swap and not a chassis swap.

BTW: an unregistered vehicle VIN does remain in the system, at least for many years until old data is cleared from the National database. Clearing of a VIN from the database only occurs when the VIN has not been used for many years, IIRC its either 15 or 20 years. It is why it is important to keep the old paperwork or other documentary evidence when a vehicle is unregistered with an intention to return it to the road in the future.

[101RRS]

Not normally an issue when you replace like with like - an inspection of numbers and do what the registration authorities want - the real issue pops up when you are also modifying either body or chassis.

As indicated - as far as rego authorities are concerned a previous registered D1 chassis with a RRC body on it would be considered a rebodied D1 and would have to meet all ADRs associated with the D1 chassis. The fact that the D1 had previously been de-registered does not matter as its Vin and engine number details remain in the data-bases for as long as the database lives.

Is all to prevent rebirthing of vehicles - having said all of the above almost anything is possible if done through the proper re-engineering process involving registration authorities.
garry

[Dougal]

The Australian registration systems can and do accept the change of chassis, however it has to be a new unstamped chassis to which the original VIN is stamped and the number on the old chassis permanently obliterated.

This is how it works in every other country. If used and the authorities care the old number is erased and the new is stamped to match the body and build-tag. If new it has no VIN and is just stamped to match.

The only VIN tag I've ever seen checked on a landrover is the build plate. This isn't affixed to the chassis.


As opposed to some countries, Australia considers the identity of a vehicle to rest with the chassis identity or the body in a monocoque design. If you swap a chassis for a second hand one, Australian authorities consider it a body swap and not a chassis swap.

Australia seriously has no bureaucratic mechanism for swapping a chassis?

How many people swap them, don't care and never have a problem?

[101RRS]

How many people swap them, don't care and never have a problem?

They will come unstuck at their next identity check or even a roadside check of the vehicle.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is how it works in every other country. If used and the authorities care the old number is erased and the new is stamped to match the body and build-tag. If new it has no VIN and is just stamped to match.

The only VIN tag I've ever seen checked on a landrover is the build plate. This isn't affixed to the chassis.



Australia seriously has no bureaucratic mechanism for swapping a chassis?

How many people swap them, don't care and never have a problem?Vehicle inspectors always have to check the VIN on the chassis. If the VIN tag doesn't match the chassis VIN the tag often gets removed. It holds very little legal force in Australia.

Yes there are processes for swapping chassis, it is called a body swap and the number of the chassis is recorded for the vehicle registration, after the vehicle is checked for compliance to ADR based upon the chassis date.

If you want to remove the chassis VIN, that can also be done too and you will be given a completely new VIN, frequently called a Police number. This new number will bear no relevance to any Land Rover model or parts supplier on earth.

We can thank these regulations on the car theft and re-birthing industry.

[Dougal]

They will come unstuck at their next identity check or even a roadside check of the vehicle.

And under what circumstances does that occur? When they are breaking a vehicle conversion ring or just because the cop is bored and wants to clamber under a vehicle to scrape through mud and grease?

I have never seen the chassis numbers of any of my rangerovers. I'd have to scrape of a huge amount of mud in some very uncomfortable positions to find them.


Vehicle inspectors always have to check the VIN on the chassis. If the VIN tag doesn't match the chassis VIN the tag often gets removed. It holds very little legal force in Australia.

Yes there are processes for swapping chassis, it is called a body swap and the number of the chassis is recorded for the vehicle registration, after the vehicle is checked for compliance to ADR based upon the chassis date.

So a vehicle inspector doesn't even have the authority to witness and record a new number being stamped on a chassis?

They certainly do in other countries. A UK import I know had to do this with his 90 when he emigrated to NZ. The chassis had been hot-dipped and the original number was gone.
On compliance into the country the inspectors asked him to restamp it. Then ticked the box and moved on.

This situation and the reasons for it isn't in any way unique to Australia. I'm just amazed how ridiculous the system is.
But don't you guys also need to be "licensed" to wire up network cables?

[101RRS]

And under what circumstances does that occur?

Mainly on change of ownership or change of registration jurisdiction. Other times could be if issued with a defect notice and the subsequent inspection.

Certainly with my 101 and Jag - they checked the actual stamped numbers on the chassis and body and not the relevant plates. When I got my Freelander transferred to the ACT in 2004 the forensic identity check took over 3 hours as the RTA inspector could not find one of the hidden Vin numbers in a spot where it was supposed to be according to his checklist.

Garry

[Lotz-A-Landies]

VIN changes on chassis are performed by the Police vehicle forensic service. They can be stamped by any mechanic, but must be checked by the Police.

If you are going to have a chassis dipped, you can have the identity checked prior to it being dipped and afterwards the same number can be re-stamped and re-checked by the Police. What can't be done is stamping a number that hasn't been previously identified by Police.

In your imported 90 scenario, this is the case when a Police number is issued and stamped. You can see examples of these numbers on the No.5 trailers being auctioned by Graysonline out of Minto NSW. The original number can not be found so they are issued a 1985 VIN (Police number). They do this, because there is no guarantee that a chassis with the same original number may turn up in the future.

No idea if it also applies to IT networks, but anything that is connected to the telephone grid has to be an AusGrid licenced contractor.

[rrturboD]

Re 300tdi and fire wall...
You can fit the engine in with standard body placement, but almost impossible to remove rocker cover, and adjust valves. Even with a 50mm body lift that I did, it is still difficult to remove the cylinder head.
The body lift is not hard to do, and 20mm is probably enough to give you enough clearance, and seat belt bolts etc are just long enough.

[Dougal]

Re 300tdi and fire wall...
You can fit the engine in with standard body placement, but almost impossible to remove rocker cover, and adjust valves. Even with a 50mm body lift that I did, it is still difficult to remove the cylinder head.
The body lift is not hard to do, and 20mm is probably enough to give you enough clearance, and seat belt bolts etc are just long enough.

Which gearbox and engine position did you use? 200Tdi was a lot further rearward. The factory 94 300tdi rangie I saw a few weeks back had plenty of firewall clearance.

[Pinelli]

But don't you guys also need to be "licensed" to wire up network cables?

Ridiculous, isn't it? I've got a bachelors degree in electrical engineering and I'm not legally allowed to install or replace a power point or light switch in my own home.

At one stage it looked like I wasn't going to be allowed to teach basic electronics at school (in Physics) because without my Cert III I wasn't qualified.

Australians would have to be the most anally retentive society anywhere when it comes to rules and bureaucracy (hope that's not being racist)

Did you hear the story recently about the teacher up the cape with the broken fridge light? Was told he wasn't allowed to replace the lamp himself due to OHS. So they flew in an electrician, at a cost of $500, to replace a $3 lamp. This in a school teaching some of the most disadvantaged kids in the developed world. Makes you want to cry.

[123rover50]

Not normally an issue when you replace like with like - an inspection of numbers and do what the registration authorities want - the real issue pops up when you are also modifying either body or chassis.

As indicated - as far as rego authorities are concerned a previous registered D1 chassis with a RRC body on it would be considered a rebodied D1 and would have to meet all ADRs associated with the D1 chassis. The fact that the D1 had previously been de-registered does not matter as its Vin and engine number details remain in the data-bases for as long as the database lives.

Is all to prevent rebirthing of vehicles - having said all of the above almost anything is possible if done through the proper re-engineering process involving registration authorities.
garry

When I built my camper on the new 6x6 perentie chassis there was no number visible. After the engineer inspected it I sent the paperwork off to Main Roads, they issued me with this loooong number that I stamped on with hammer and 1/2" number punch. Took it to the local council office for rego. The young lady read the number and completed the paper work.All done:)

[rrturboD]

Dougal,
I've only built 1: '88 RR Tdi300 (+lpg), Auto
and
the issue with firewall is not between engine block and firewall, but the rocker cover and firewall, as the range rover firewall is not flat like a disco, but comes forward at the top.
The 300tdi engine fan mates with the radiator shroud etc. Placement was matched with a disco re engine mounts etc, and gearbox used standard mounts, so engine placement was not moved to give greater or lesser firewall clearances.
I am sure that without body lift you can fit it all in, just depends how easy you want it to be for regular maintenance etc
You can do the engine swap and later do the body lift ... it is not mandatory.

[Dougal]

Dougal,
I've only built 1: '88 RR Tdi300 (+lpg), Auto
and
the issue with firewall is not between engine block and firewall, but the rocker cover and firewall, as the range rover firewall is not flat like a disco, but comes forward at the top.
The 300tdi engine fan mates with the radiator shroud etc. Placement was matched with a disco re engine mounts etc, and gearbox used standard mounts, so engine placement was not moved to give greater or lesser firewall clearances.
I am sure that without body lift you can fit it all in, just depends how easy you want it to be for regular maintenance etc
You can do the engine swap and later do the body lift ... it is not mandatory.

The upper firewall shape between my 85 and 93 are subtley different and I suspect the 300tdi was the reason for the change.
The 94 soft-dash was I think the only RRC sold new with the 300tdi. They did the 200tdi RRC from about 91, I've chased several for sale but I've never seen one in person.

For better or worse that particular 300tdi soft-dash may end up in my collection.

[weeds]

Ridiculous, isn't it? I've got a bachelors degree in electrical engineering and I'm not legally allowed to install or replace a power point or light switch in my own home.


not trying to be smart however...I have work with some engineers and there is no way you would let them loose with screwdriver

an apprentice needs to prove there work/knowledge in a classroom than on the job under supervision, i'm not sure uni's go to this extent........

its a general observation i.e. not questioning your ability...and yes I am sure t here are bad electricians out there

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Ridiculous, isn't it? I've got a bachelors degree in electrical engineering and I'm not legally allowed to install or replace a power point or light switch in my own home.

....When I purchased my current house, the power to the garage in the back yard was two lengths of second hand gal water pipe placed end to end with nothing to seal the joint. Inside the pipe were two separate lengths of electrical flex, one was a rubber flex from an extension lead the other was cotton wrapped, they were joined by twisted wire and taped with electrical tape, and pulled inside the gal pipe. That arrangement was buried 6" below the grass.

Inside the house while there were earth wires to most of the power points, only the front half of the house was connected to the ground spike. On one wall there was a point to the fridge, (no earth) the GPO was connected by two pieces of flex, one a modern plastic style but the black/red/green colours, the other a piece of extension cord flex. The active came in on one flex while the neutral on the other. A rat skeleton was embedded in one part of the flex. The other ends of the flex circled a wall and connected back into another (same) GPO.

And you ask why only licenced electricians are permitted to work on household 240V systems?

I'm not saying that you would do the same.

I re-wired the house myself, I cable clipped all the flex under the house and in the roof, drilled the holes for switches and GPO pulled the flex into the points and terminated them all on the switches/GPO but had to leave them hanging out of the wall. The runs of flex were routed to a new weatherproof meter box and left hanging out. A close friend and licenced electrician then came over and checked each and every one of my connections, before he went out and started connecting up the metre box. We then did a disconnect and re-connect to move over the old and new wiring. (Early in life I did a year of an electrical apprenticeship, before moving into health, so I had tons of experience pin clipping cables under houses :D ).

During one of our trips to the electrical wholesaler we were waiting at the counter while the previous customer was buying and asking questions of the sales assistant about his electrical project. My friend leaned over to the counter, threw his licence onto the counter and said: "the first thing that you need is one of these". If the only knowledge people have about wiring comes from a sales assistant is there any wonder we end up with houses wired like mine was. Electrical fittings should not be allowed to be sold to people without licences.

[Dougal]

Electrical fittings should not be allowed to be sold to people without licences.

I can't disagree with that strongly enough. All it does is create a cartel type arrangement where people are shafted left, right and centre.

Those doing the shafting claim it's all in the name of safety. Doesn't matter which industry we're talking about.
But it's all about money and protectionism. The sparkies want to be able to charge out all the labour even when it's screwing boxes to the wall.

Whoever mandated that RJ45 cables need a license to wire up has cost your country millions.

[uninformed]

I can't disagree with that strongly enough. All it does is create a cartel type arrangement where people are shafted left, right and centre.

Those doing the shafting claim it's all in the name of safety. Doesn't matter which industry we're talking about.
But it's all about money and protectionism. The sparkies want to be able to charge out all the labour even when it's screwing boxes to the wall.

Whoever mandated that RJ45 cables need a license to wire up has cost your country millions.

Yep sparkies get DOUBLE what I do, yet they would have no structure to install stuff with out me.

And they seem to have no structural clue. Example, a mate had his house built, when the sparkie did the fit off, cutting in the down lights in the kitchen, he cut through and completey removed a section of the bottom cord of a roof truss!

I have no problem with engineers getting top dollar, but why plumbers and sparkies are so highly rated is beyond me (or is it why carpenters are so underrated???)

[superquag]

NO, what we need is competant, interested, motivated, careful and honest elecrical workers who not only do it as a living, but take pride in a Job Well Done for fair rates... Licenced or not.

Not like the licenced sparky who phase- reversed a GPO...the one that bit me
How about this approach:-

New Zealand Electrical Code of Practice for homeowner/occupier's electrical wiring work in domestic installations | Energy Safety (http://www.med.govt.nz/energysafety/about/publications/publications-for-consumers/new-zealand-electrical-code-of-practice-for-homeowner-occupiers-electrical-wiring-work-in-domestic-installations)

I've taken the time and effort to make myself competant enough to do whatever domestic electrical work I might, ah, be inclined to think about doing...:angel:

Or put it another way, have just come down from my roof-space and the licenced electrical Tradesman's work up there does'nt meet my standards of workmanship or safetly. Cheap insulation tape has never been a favourite of mine. Anywhere.
Nor am I impressed with the falling quality of imported domestic fittings, such as GPOs. - Clipsal they are'nt !

When I last looked at some stats, Australia has one of the highest rates of electrical DIY accidents (reported events etc, not just deaths) in the world. the second - highest country like Oz, does not legally permit owner-occupiers to do ANY electrical fitting/replacement, of even a flouro tube...

Yet Sparkies are not an endangered species in NZ or the UK.

[superquag]

During one of our trips to the electrical wholesaler we were waiting at the ....and said: "the first thing that you need is one of these". If the only knowledge people have about wiring comes from a sales assistant is there any wonder we end up with houses wired like mine was. Electrical fittings should not be allowed to be sold to people without licences.

Less likely to happen in NZ, where the government has publications that clearly set out what the resident home-owner can do, - and how to do it so that a gov't inspector can check and sign off on it, depending on what the work is...:eek:

Does'nt mean you must do it yourself... You're quite at liberty to employ a capable and interested licenced Electrical Contractor to do the whole shebang.

And, when you fly in and around the place, the engineers who designed/built and installed the various beacons, radars and other assorted radio stuff that keeps everyone safe... are also 'unqualified' to wire up a household extension lead.- legally.

That same cartel style of thinking will, eventually, forbid YOU from doing any work on your Land Rover, unless you have the blessing from the appropriate Guild, Union, Association or Temple.

[Pinelli]

not trying to be smart however...I have work with some engineers and there is no way you would let them loose with screwdriver

an apprentice needs to prove there work/knowledge in a classroom than on the job under supervision, i'm not sure uni's go to this extent........

its a general observation i.e. not questioning your ability...and yes I am sure t here are bad electricians out there

Yeah, I do know engineers with limited technical ability. And yes, I certainly know electricians that I wouldn't allow anywhere near my house.

Engineering training is very different to a trade. Graduating is really considered the beginning of training as an engineer. It usually takes another 18-24 months of industry-specific training before employers start to get real value out of engineers, even with the industry experience that all students undertake during their degree. The degree is not so much about teaching practical skills, but teaching how to think in different ways.

[Dougal]

Yeah, I do know engineers with limited technical ability. And yes, I certainly know electricians that I wouldn't allow anywhere near my house.

A large proportion of qualified electricians are not allowed near a screw-driver. They are referred to here as "cable pullers".
A sparky mate tells me of one who got qualified but wasn't even allowed to pull cables. His job is changing flouro tubes in shopping malls.

Like any trade, the best are very very good. The worst need taken out the back and shot.
Being qualified guarantees nothing.

[101RRS]

I am sorry but I thought this thread was about putting in a 300tdi in a RRc not about wiring your house and the legalities of doing it yourself :o.