Starting a long dead P38

[zzsteve]

Hi,
As a previous RRC current D2 and now potential P38 owner, I wanted to get some advice on starting a 1995 P38 with a long dead battery. The plan was to show up with a charged battery and swap out the existing battery, insert key and drive home. Will there be BECM issues or key sync problems? Also,the EAS has sunk, but I'm assured it will rise again.
Secondary questions:
Is the preferred supplier of new bags Arnotts or airbagman or OEM ? (Contitech I believe) I have had problems with Arnotts in the past with the tops fracturing but apparently this is fixed.
Where does one go for valve block O-ring kits with the Hardrange ones now unavailable?
Cheers and TIA
Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Just how long has it been sitting?

[Keithy P38]

It could go either way...

At a minimum, I'd be replacing the engine oil, water pump, thermostat and coolant before attempting to drive it anywhere. Coolant hoses as well if they are getting on.

Cross your fingers and hope it starts!

Cheers
Keithy

[zzsteve]

Just how long has it been sitting?

1.5 - 2 years with maybe an occasional start in that time. Expansion tank empty, so a coolant refill required.
Steve

[finallyrangie]

When I got mine, 1995 HSE, it had been sitting 5 months with the odd start, with luck a new battery should start it, do you know where the coolant went or are you planning a rebuild when you get home?

Don't worry too much about computer issues from the battery, the older P38's are quite forgiving, you will need to reset the windows and sunroof and probably the remote locking, but most of the rest is self setting, do you have the radio code?

The suspension might well work if it's been lifted occasionally, but I would suggest you at least give the airbags a visual check before you drive anywhere, maybe get it back up then leave it to see how badly it leaks, I am still chasing one on mine.

Also bleed the brakes before you go anywhere, mine were terrible.

Good luck and let us know how you go

[zzsteve]

There was a rumour about something wrong with the heater - not sure. So, maybe the o-ring problem or a corroded core. Only have to drive it a few k's to get it home where I can dissect it and sort it out. I'm a bit afraid of the BeCM losing the fob code and the immobiliser being activated when I put a good battery in it.
Would the RR fob have the six character code internally as per the D2 ?
Could my Nanocom (early version) talk to the P38 BeCM and let me set/reset it?
Cheers,
Steve

[benji]

To sync the key fob, put the key in the door, press one of the buttons ( doesn't matter which one), turn the key to the back of the car then back to the middle and let go of the button, press a button again and turn the key to the front of the car then back and let go of the button. You should then be able to unlock the car with the fob. There's a few ways to do it but thats always worked for me.

Being 95 you may be able to unlock it with the key and start it. I can on my 96, even if I've superlocked it with the fob.

It's pretty easy to bypass the heater core too, as the last thing you want is lots of water in the drivers foot well in these things.

[Keithy P38]

The fob resync as mentioned above, you need to press lock when turning in the lock direction, unlock when turning in the unlock direction!

Cheers
Keithy

[benji]

I thought the same thing when I bought mine, but was reading an early tsb that said to 'press a key fob button', which I thought wasn't very prescriptive; but sure enough (my 96 anyway) it'll work with any button. But you've got to turn the key opposite ways.

[Hoges]

For a long dead no start etc BEFORE connecting the battery and turning on the ignition for the first time, I'd remove the relay which operates the fuel pump, then connect the battery and then use the ignition switch to turn the motor over on the "new" battery in several bursts of about 5-10 seconds ea. to get the oil pressure up and oil circulating. (see if you can extinguish the oil pressure warning light on the instrument cluster).. Then put the relay back and try and start it...
Given it's a GEMS system, IIRC, when the system has lost the immobiliser link between the engine EMS and the BECM, it won't turn over. With the Thor, it will turn over but not start because the system disables the fuel pump.
Sorry, not familiar with the Nanocom capability in restoring the engine EMS with the BECM. Am sure others can provide this info. It is usual to rewrite the (fixed) 3 digit code obtained from the EMS into the BECM memory (with a Test Book /Faultmate etc).

Good luck with it...

[wayneg]

Being 95 you may be able to unlock it with the key and start it. I can on my 96, even if I've superlocked it with the fob.
It's pretty easy to bypass the heater core too, as the last thing you want is lots of water in the drivers foot well in these things.

You have probably had the immobiliser disabled in the BECM .


Dont just fill with coolant and drive. it takes a while to get the air out of the system and you will overheat it real quick with an air lock.
When you connect the charged battery make sure the key is not in the car as it will lock itself

[LandyAndy]

For a short distance trip I would get a tilt tray to do it or hire a trailer.No point causing any more damage to an engine in unknown condition.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[benji]

For a short distance trip I would get a tilt tray to do it or hire a trailer.No point causing any more damage to an engine in unknown condition.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

Too true, just hire/borrow a trailer and tow it with the D2.

Erring on the side of caution, our p38 wasn't regularly started for near on 6 months. We trailered it back 150k; very heavy but worth it.

[cro]

my 94 p38 has sat in a garage for the past 7 years and only been started 4 times in that time. I change the oil each time before starting and drained 3/4 fuel out and replace with fresh stuff each time. It has started first go each time with no problem at all, no noises,leaks,smoke anything. So each time I decided to take it for a 30-40 min drive. airsuspension filled up no problems and no errors. I just have to reset all windows and sunroof and it drove great.
I must admit I was surprised each time but it has never let me down. apart from the headlining, that sucker has sagged like crazy. O and the leather is a little moldy but that cleans off. I say start that sucker and drive it.

[finallyrangie]

Another thing it says in the manual is when you reconnect the battery have the drivers door open and the key at ignition 2, apparently the computer takes that to mean you own it, can open the door and have the key!

Not sure how important it is but I did it and had no problems,

Good luck

[Hoges]

The immobiliser sync is then facilitated automatically: detects correct key (apart from fob) etc

[benji]

Another thing it says in the manual is when you reconnect the battery have the drivers door open and the key at ignition 2, apparently the computer takes that to mean you own it, can open the door and have the key!

Not sure how important it is but I did it and had no problems,

Good luck

Do you know if that's with gems and bosch?
Great to know though.

[finallyrangie]

Do you know if that's with gems and bosch?
Great to know though.



Mine is a gems, with the manual to match, I'm afraid I don't know if the bosch is the same, as you say it's a little thing that's good to know.

[zzsteve]

OK, I have resynced fob with BeCM using the key in door technique - thanks!
Now, no cranking.
When I read security codes from the GEMS with the Nanocom Evo I get fields with single "0"s in them.
There is no EKA as I believe '95 models did not have them. My understanding is that I have to write these security codes back into the BeCM but they are just 0 and, I can't find an appropriate part of the menu to allow me to write these back into the BeCM anyway.
I tried "security learn" but no joy. Cycling ignition is just key out and in again - right? or does it need door locking and a delay etc...
Any hints?
TIA
Steve

[Hoges]

Possibly the BECM has lost the engine EMS code from its memory. So, use the Nanocom to read the three digit security code in the engine ecu ...called the ems. You then write this number into the becm memory, save it there, disconnect the Nanocom, switch off the ignition. Then switch on and see if it starts...

Alternatively, and I don't have a Nanocom, but the principle may be the same, here are the directions for using a Faultmate with the GEMS system:
Go through the Nanocom options in the Petrol EMS section to " Security Learn Mode"

"...Security learn mode: When the ignition is turned on, the BECM, providing it is in receipt of a valid mobilization code and is therefore not in an alarmed or immobilised state, sends a coded signal to the GEMS which the Gems then compares against a mobilization code it has stored in it. If the two codes compare OK, the Gems will allow the engine to start. This forms the basis of the immobiliser. If the GEMS ECU, the BECM, or the lockset & key fob is replaced or other data in the BECM is changed, it may be required for the GEMS to re-learn a new mobilization code.

This is done by using this function to put the GEMS into Security learn mode whereby the next coded signal it receives is not compared but is instead stored as the master copy. When security learn mode has been entered the ignition must be turned off and turned back on to trigger the BECM into sending the code. The GEMS will check the incoming code and should accept it; however, if there is an error no matter how slight in the codes makeup, the GEMS can reject it, in which case there will be no valid code stored. This situation can be checked by looking at the security learn status in Inputs - Engine and Other which denotes whether the system has a valid code stored or not.
"

On re-reading your post and thinking about the above, it may be that the GEMS EMS won't accept zeros...i.e. empty fields. My suggestion is to populate the BECM "EMS Code" with three digits or however many it requires (I have a Bosch system which takes 3 digits) e.g. write in 1 2 3 which the GEMS EMS in "Security Learn mode" might accept ...

[zzsteve]

Thanks Hoges,
Problem is, the EMS just gives me 0s in the code field so, I'm about to trek back and enter something/anything and see. Maybe the Security Learn function just makes BeCM and EMS share the new (random) code you just entered? Also, I didn't disconnect the Nanocom when cycling the ignition - will try that too.
Steve

[Hoges]

Yep, that's right re the EMS. Put the code into the BECM and see if the EMS learns from the BECM by copying the (say) 1 2 3 code as its new Master code. While you're at it, "reset" the adaptive values of the EMS also.
cheers

[zzsteve]

UPDATE: BeCM is Locked. Toggled it to Unlocked and Write Settings (successfully) but on reading again it is Locked. So, all of this Security Learn and code entry is pointless as Nanocom Evo can't unlock a BeCM right?
What next- pull BeCM, EMS and a key fob and search for a wizard?
TIA
Steve
BTW: Not getting any messages apart from windows and sunroof not set on the message centre, just a Check Engine light, no faults and some clicky relay noises when I try to start. Battery voltage holds at >11.6V all the time so it's OK.

[benji]

If the ems doesn't accept the security code from the becm it won't illuminate the check engine light when you turn on the ignition.

[Hoges]

UPDATE: BeCM is Locked. Toggled it to Unlocked and Write Settings (successfully) but on reading again it is Locked. So, all of this Security Learn and code entry is pointless as Nanocom Evo can't unlock a BeCM right?
What next- pull BeCM, EMS and a key fob and search for a wizard?
TIA
Steve
BTW: Not getting any messages apart from windows and sunroof not set on the message centre, just a Check Engine light, no faults and some clicky relay noises when I try to start. Battery voltage holds at >11.6V all the time so it's OK.

Battery voltage may be your problem: 11.6V or thereabouts is very low... try a jump start using a healthy battery from a vehicle that's idling...

[zzsteve]

Thanks gents,
I might try one of those Caterpillar batteries.
Where's the definitive reference on BeCM and EMS communications?
Cheers,
Steve

[Hoges]

My BECM is also locked but it still accepts rewriting of the EMS code.
A fully charged battery in good condition is critical for proper functioning of the P38. Otherwise you can experience all sorts of niggling faults.
Simply hook up the healthy battery with jumper leads (don't forget the negative from the donor battery to the lifting eye or some other good earth point ) AND cables clear of things that rotate!!:eek::wasntme: and see what happens when you try and start it...


EDIT: have a read of RAVE re. the EMS and BECM as well as the Elec. Trouble shooting Manual. There's a deal of descriptive info about which connects to what etc.

[wayneg]

Black box solutions have a specific bit of kit that rewrites the code. I have one for a Thor but no good for gems. Just plug it into the comms port and after a few led blinks all is reset.
If you have access to a spare main fuse box I would swap over and try.

[Scouse]

This is available from Lee Bourgeois to get around immobilization with the GEMS system:
Mobi-Lize (http://www.labtronx.com.au/mobi-lize.htm)

[zzsteve]

OK, It is home under its own steam after much roadside checking and repairs. The last show stopper was the starter solenoid. Removed, took it home and freed it up. Now, those socket head screws were a pain on the classic, a nuisance on the D2 but the cursing goes to new heights on this beast. There has got to be an easier way!
So, much to do now.
But, there's no tow bar.
Will an old RR classic one fit ?
And, some hesitation and low power on the hills. Feels like fuel starvation. Any recommended sources or alternatives for the filter and pump. I'm thinking of replacing it with the Bosch VP/VN Commodore generic as per the classic. Sound reasonable?
Many thanks for the support.
TIA
Steve

[Keithy P38]

Could it be bad fuel? If it's been sitting for a while, imagine what gunk the fuel filter will cop!

[wayneg]

You can use a generic pump, get a high pressure Bosch clone. Like the Classic you need to drop the tank unless you cut an access hole to make it accessible from the top. An after-market pump sender unit and filter from ebay UK will be very reasonable for your Gems car. As Keith suggests change the filter and drain off the old fuel 1st, its the easiest and cheapest option before attacking the pump. If you do the pump ensure you get the correct R10 submersible fuel hose or you will live to regret it

Not sure about the tow bar, I doubt a classic one will do. I am after one too so my question is will a D2 towbar fit?

[Keithy P38]

I have people in parts, will get a cross-reference on the P38 towbar and see what else runs the same part.

[whisky_mac]

Guys, I have been sitting on the side watching this thread. This is what the site is all about. Some of you guys have not even met zzsteve but the sharing of knowledge is awesome. I have very little knowledge myself but congratulate all that have helped with this project.

Jim

[bee utey]

Disco/RRC towbars won't fit, the chassis of the P38 is totally different.

[zzsteve]

Could it be bad fuel? If it's been sitting for a while, imagine what gunk the fuel filter will cop!
Yep,

That's my first guess. Out with the filter and maybe new pump would be wise.
Also, as I was tucking it into bed, I found it snoring badly. Turned out to be engine relay (yellow) 19 buzzing away. Just pulled it and will look again tonight. Could it be related to EAS re-levelling somehow? It is parked nose down and front RH bag goes down pretty quickly.

Cheers & TIA

Steve

[wayneg]

The EAS will no doubt be leaking. With it pumped up spray soapy water around each air spring, it will be evident if it leaks, they fizz up. The valve block could also do with an ) 0-ring renew and seal reface. About 4 hrs work on a bench, $40 for the o-ring kit. If you are keeping the car, If the airsprings are at all suspect just change them all. Easy enough to swap and $400 to $1200 the set dependant on type. They do come up quite often second hand as owners upgrade to Arnott springs or give up and go to coils