Solar bore pump question

[123rover50]

Getting short of water so decided to put a solar pump down an unused low producing borehole.

I was supplied with 2 panels 100watts and 23 volts each.
Hooked in series this gives 46 volts.
The pump is marked 36 volts and 120 watts.
The controller is 36 volts.
When hooked up it wont pump and a yellow light indicates over voltage.
A voltmeter reads a no load of 50 volts.

The supplier says he has 2 panels of 120 watts and 19.5 volts each and would I like them instead.
To my limited knowledge that sounds a better option as in series I would get 39 volts.

Would this be the way to go?

Keith

[Graeme]

What is the maximum input voltage on the controller?
Did you try connecting the pump before connecting the panels?

[123rover50]

There is nothing in the book or on the controller to indicate what it considers is overvoltage.
Yes I wired the pump to the controller before I hooked the panels to it.
As I have the panels beside the controller the wiring is very short.
Would putting a longer length of thinner wire drop the voltage enough ?
Perhaps wire in a resistance of some sort? I dont know.

[Vern]

What voltage are you getting at the pump?

[flyinglandrover]

What brand and model of pump are you using? I would be interested is a similar setup (If you can get it working)
Thanks

[123rover50]

What voltage are you getting at the pump?

No voltage coming from the controller to the pump at all.
50 volts no load going in to controller with an orange light on that means over voltage, so its stopping any current going to the pump.

[123rover50]

What brand and model of pump are you using? I would be interested is a similar setup (If you can get it working)
Thanks

Its called Solar-Wind hybrid solar water pump system. The pump was supposed to be a 3PSO.6 and 24 volt but came as a 36volt system.
Bought it off Sunenergy at Maleny QLD mail order.
Bit of a sad story really.
Paid the deposit in December but he had run out of stock. A new order was due in in a month. That was OK.
Had no contact for 6 weeks so a mate who lives nearby the shop at Maleny dropped in to see what was happening.
The owner had died a week or so back and his son is now trying to sort things out. He really has not much idea on this stuff either so I cant be too hard on him
He has a shop full of different pumps, panels and controllers and I guess is not sure what belongs to what. He is trying to contact the supplier in China for advice.
So there we are.
1250 odd bucks for the whole system . It has probes to put in the tank too so it will shut off when full.

[Vern]

tried it with 1 panel? Polarity correct?

[Graeme]

Partly cover 1 panel to drop the voltage then assuming the pump runs, slowly remove the cover as the panel o/p voltage will drop under load. Alternatively leave it connected overnight and it should be OK as the sun gets up.

[bee utey]

Wire a few household batten holders across the solar panels and install a selection of 240 volt globes (or 2x 24V truck globes in series if you have any) until the voltage is in tolerance.

[123rover50]

tried it with 1 panel? Polarity correct?

Havnt tried it with one panel as I thought trying to drive a 36volt pump with 23 volts might cause damage.

[123rover50]

Partly cover 1 panel to drop the voltage then assuming the pump runs, slowly remove the cover as the panel o/p voltage will drop under load. Alternatively leave it connected overnight and it should be OK as the sun gets up.
Tried that already. Went from no lights at all to the voltage overload as I removed the cover. I was thinking that might only change the watts not the volts.

[123rover50]

Wire a few household batten holders across the solar panels and install a selection of 240 volt globes (or 2x 24V truck globes in series if you have any) until the voltage is in tolerance.

That sounds a better idea than my long wire or resistance for voltage drop.
I will give that a go.

[DeanoH]

Whoa.........................................littl e steps is good. :)

Solar panels come (basically) in two sizes 12 volt (nominal) and 24 volt (nominal). A 12 volt solar panel will have a Voc (open circuit voltage no load) of approx. 22 volts and a working voltage (connected to a regulator with a load) of around 18 volts to give a regulated output (from the solar regulator/controller) of 13.5 volts (usually connected to a 12 volt (nominal) battery. For a 24 volt system double these numbers.

If you have a 36 volt (nominal) system you will need 3 X 12 volt panels connected in series. This will have a Voc of approx. 66 volts and a working solar panel voltage of approx. 54 volts into the controller when the reg/controller is connected to a load. The reg output voltage will be around 40 volts.

What does it say on the back of the solar panels ? (Manufacturer, model number Voc etc), same for the solar reg/controller, and for the pump. These solar bore pump setups don't usually require a battery when used with the correct controller so this should not be an issue if all the components are compatible :).

Give us a bit more info and all may become clearer. :angel:


Deano :)

[Graeme]

The voltage wont be maintained as load is increased - consider what happens if you short circuit the panel o/p with heavy gauge wire when the voltage drops to 0. However the voltage must be rising too quickly past the controller's limit before the controller gets to connect the load, which might also occur as the sun rises if the controller is that sensitive.

[123rover50]

Whoa.........................................littl e steps is good. :)

Solar panels come (basically) in two sizes 12 volt (nominal) and 24 volt (nominal). A 12 volt solar panel will have a Voc (open circuit voltage no load) of approx. 22 volts and a working voltage (connected to a regulator with a load) of around 18 volts to give a regulated output (from the solar regulator/controller) of 13.5 volts (usually connected to a 12 volt (nominal) battery. For a 24 volt system double these numbers.

If you have a 36 volt (nominal) system you will need 3 X 12 volt panels connected in series. This will have a Voc of approx. 66 volts and a working solar panel voltage of approx. 54 volts into the controller when the reg/controller is connected to a load. The reg output voltage will be around 40 volts.

What does it say on the back of the solar panels ? (Manufacturer, model number Voc etc), same for the solar reg/controller, and for the pump. These solar bore pump setups don't usually require a battery when used with the correct controller so this should not be an issue if all the components are compatible :).

Give us a bit more info and all may become clearer. :angel:


Deano :)
Here is a pic of the back of the panel.
The pump is down the hole and only had a sticker stating 36volts.
Same with the controller.

[d@rk51d3]

Is there a battery terminal on the controller?

If so, try connecting a charged battery(s). (might need 24v)

The controller on my camper will not pass any solar power through if there's no battery connected, or if it's flat.

Could also depend on dip switch settings if:
1. you have the panels wired into the battery terminals, with no battery connected, OR
2. panels wired into the PV terminals, with batteries connected to the battery terminals.



And, just in case you don't have the manual............ http://sunergy.net.au/wp-content/themes/dynamik/css/images/Installation_Manual.pdf

[123rover50]

Thanks . Thats the same manual as I have. Does not say much does it.
No battery terminals on the control box

[d@rk51d3]

Thanks . Thats the same manual as I have. Does not say much does it.
No battery terminals on the control box

No B+ / B- terminals?

According to the manual, all the controllers other than the 150v / 220v / 300v should have them.

-EDIT-
Looking at the 36v controller, it has battery terminals, but not the PV terminals.
PV panels get wired to the battery terminals, so no battery connection required............ hmmm.

You also need 2x 22v 130W panels in series.

Starting to look like your panels are a bit wanting. ???


Also, is your pump outlet 1" or larger?
If it's larger, then you've got the wrong pump, which is still 36v, but will need 500w to crank it.

[123rover50]

Well its got me buggered.
Hooked a full 15 amp extension cord between the panels and box.
Turned it on and as before I can hear the pump start then stop and the yellow light comes on.
This time I held the voltmeter on it. Voltage dropped from 50 creeping down to 10 when the motor stops and yellow light comes on.
There are 3 wires going to the pump and I dont know which are the power wires and which is the low level cutout wire.
There is a U which is black V which is brown and W which is blue.

If there is low voltage the yellow light is supposed to flash. High voltage it is steady on.

Might have to wait and see what respone the young fellow gets from China.

[123rover50]

No B+ / B- terminals?

According to the manual, all the controllers other than the 150v / 220v / 300v should have them.

-EDIT-
Looking at the 36v controller, it has battery terminals, but not the PV terminals.
PV panels get wired to the battery terminals, so no battery connection required............ hmmm.

You also need 2x 22v 130W panels in series.

Starting to look like your panels are a bit wanting. ???


Also, is your pump outlet 1" or larger?
If it's larger, then you've got the wrong pump, which is still 36v, but will need 500w to crank it.

It was supposed to be the smallest screw pump the 3PSO6 but it came as 36 volt.
It is 1" outlet but all those screw pumps are.
As you say its got the + and - connectors which I have the panel connected to. No others except the ones for the probes which dont have to be hooked up.

[d@rk51d3]

Water level sensors not connected?

Do you need to bridge them to common (WH to COM), to bypass?

(36v non well / non tower diagram)

[123rover50]

Water level sensors not connected?

Do you need to bridge them to common (WH to COM), to bypass?

(36v non well / non tower diagram)

This box does not have the WH WL WC terminals.
It has the TL TM & TH terminals to stop the tank from overflowing.
I asked the father before he died about probes in the bore for low level and he said these pumps dont need them as they turn themselves off.
I thought that might be what the third pump wire is for. The diagram is not clear.
The book mentions bridging the WH & WC but no mention of doing it to any of the T terminals.

[d@rk51d3]

Strange.

I can't see the purpose for 3 tank sensors, and according to the manual there should only be a TL (COM) and TH. When the tank is low, pump cuts in. When the tank is full, the water bridges the 2 sensors and cuts it off. :confused:

Only the well has three, Standing water level (HW), working level (LW) and the Common (WC).

I'm starting to think it's a chinglish error, someone has borked the label, and as the manual states, if there's no sensors in the well, you'll need to bridge WH and WC for the pump to run. (or TL and TH in your case if they've mislabeled the terminals)
BUT you'll lose LOP protection (loss of prime) if the well level drops, pump will run dry.
Also, pump can't turn off if there's no sensor, pressure switch, float switch, to signal it to stop............. until the sun goes down and drops power to the whole shebang..

BUT(2), I'm only guessing. :twisted:

[DeanoH]

I think you've got a bit of a mis match of gear.

For a start, your panels are 'nominally' 18 volt (just to make them different), but that's OK, connected in series you get 'nominally' 36 volt which should run your pump motor.

What is an issue though is the power rating of the panels. They're rated at 100 watt each, not the 130 watt specified for the 36 volt pumps. Also as a 18 volt panel I reckon they're a bit under rated in the voltage stakes as well. I would expect a Voc of around 33 volt and a Vmp of around 27 volt to give a bit of overhead to the system, but they may run at this lower voltage so as not to overload the regulator/controller input.

I assume when you're testing this that it's nice and sunny with the panels pointed to the sun :). You can hear the pump start but it turns off straight away, so either it thinks a/. the bores dry or b/. the tanks full or c/. there's not enough grunt from the panels to drive the pump. :) (or the whole things totally stuffed which I don't think it is.

As a test I'd suggest getting 3 car batterys, connect them in series to give 36 volts (nominal) and connect this to the reg instead of the solar panels (please use a fuse here just in case). If it all works OK then the problem is probably undersized panels.

If this doesn't work I'd try connecting the TM (tank common) and TL(water low) terminals together, the theory being that this will tell the pump to start as opposed to connecting TM and TH (tank high) which I'd expect to tell the pump to turn off. :)

Hope that makes some sense.

Deano :)

[123rover50]

Like you I cant see the need for 3 tank sensors either.
Bore probes yes. The Grundfoss I had in there had the three.

The father said it would turn off if the level got below the pump unlet. Could there be a probe built in?
What would the 3rd wire be for if its just a simple dc motor?

Then again if it was a probe wire it would not be bundled with the power wires.
The manual also say to reverse rotation switch any two wires of the three.
Confuses me, why would you want to run it in reverse anyway.

[123rover50]

I think you've got a bit of a mis match of gear.

For a start, your panels are 'nominally' 18 volt (just to make them different), but that's OK, connected in series you get 'nominally' 36 volt which should run your pump motor.

What is an issue though is the power rating of the panels. They're rated at 100 watt each, not the 130 watt specified for the 36 volt pumps. Also as a 18 volt panel I reckon they're a bit under rated in the voltage stakes as well. I would expect a Voc of around 33 volt and a Vmp of around 27 volt to give a bit of overhead to the system, but they may run at this lower voltage so as not to overload the regulator/controller input.

I assume when you're testing this that it's nice and sunny with the panels pointed to the sun :). You can hear the pump start but it turns off straight away, so either it thinks a/. the bores dry or b/. the tanks full or c/. there's not enough grunt from the panels to drive the pump. :) (or the whole things totally stuffed which I don't think it is.

As a test I'd suggest getting 3 car batterys, connect them in series to give 36 volts (nominal) and connect this to the reg instead of the solar panels (please use a fuse here just in case). If it all works OK then the problem is probably undersized panels.

If this doesn't work I'd try connecting the TM (tank common) and TL(water low) terminals together, the theory being that this will tell the pump to start as opposed to connecting TM and TH (tank high) which I'd expect to tell the pump to turn off. :)

Hope that makes some sense.

Deano :)

The panels the son offered me are the 19volt ones.
These ones are VOC 27.8 and Vmp 23volts.
Got to go out now. I will try bridging the terminals tomorrow.

[DeanoH]

.....................Like you I cant see the need for 3 tank sensors either.
..............................

May have misread the L M H as Low, coMmon and High. :( Are these single wire capacitive/conductive sensors ?

It may be that with an empty tank (no water contact between TL & TM) that the pump is run flat out by the controller but when these contacts are bridged by the water that the pump is slowed down a bit until TL, TM and TH are bridged which turns the pump off. :D

Deano :)

[d@rk51d3]

3 sensors in the tank would work similarly to 3 in the well, but in reverse. But a wasted exercise for general use, I think.

In the well, if the water covers all 3, the pump will run until either the tank sensors show full and shuts it down, or the water level in the well drops below the second well sensor. (m)

If water in the well drops below the second well sensor (m), the pump cuts out, and will not restart until the well shows full by reaching the 3rd sensor (h) again.

So, with no sensors in the tank, controller will read the tank as empty, and should be signalled to run, BUT with no sensors down the well, it will register as a dry bore, and refuse to start the pump.

Looks like you need to trick the controller into thinking there's water in the well (bridging the common (L) and (H)igh sensor terminals). A sensor in the pump itself would be insufficient IMHO, as the pump would possibly vortex and suck air.

[d@rk51d3]

Like you I cant see the need for 3 tank sensors either.
Bore probes yes. The Grundfoss I had in there had the three.

The father said it would turn off if the level got below the pump unlet. Could there be a probe built in?
What would the 3rd wire be for if its just a simple dc motor?

Then again if it was a probe wire it would not be bundled with the power wires.
The manual also say to reverse rotation switch any two wires of the three.
Confuses me, why would you want to run it in reverse anyway.

Grundfos has 3 wires, serves as an earth for AC usage (their systems can run both - ie. Solar, genset and grid)

Also, pump communicates with the controller by sending data via the power cables.

With the DC they say if you wire it backwards, it will run, but abysmally, with little to no water coming up.

We had a customer run one for years in reverse. Only complained when we returned it from its service, and reinstalled it properly and it blew the crap out of his water lines. :D

[123rover50]

3 sensors in the tank would work similarly to 3 in the well, but in reverse. But a wasted exercise for general use, I think.

In the well, if the water covers all 3, the pump will run until either the tank sensors show full and shuts it down, or the water level in the well drops below the second well sensor. (m)

If water in the well drops below the second well sensor (m), the pump cuts out, and will not restart until the well shows full by reaching the 3rd sensor (h) again.

So, with no sensors in the tank, controller will read the tank as empty, and should be signalled to run, BUT with no sensors down the well, it will register as a dry bore, and refuse to start the pump.

Looks like you need to trick the controller into thinking there's water in the well (bridging the common (L) and (H)igh sensor terminals). A sensor in the pump itself would be insufficient IMHO, as the pump would possibly vortex and suck air.

The bottom two lights on the box are for 1 Tank full
2 Source low

Wouldnt these light up as the cause of the shutdown if the probes need to be bridged rather than the high voltage light showing?
Anyway I will give the bridging a go today.

[tonic]

Hi


Know nothing about electrickery, but I do drill bores, and I look good while I'm doing it:D


Try this guy, he called me once to get me to recommend him. Said he's been doing it for a while, cant hurt


http://www.rmigelectrical.com.au/ (http://www.rmigelectrical.com.au/) His name is Martin

[d@rk51d3]

The bottom two lights on the box are for 1 Tank full
2 Source low

Wouldnt these light up as the cause of the shutdown if the probes need to be bridged rather than the high voltage light showing?
Anyway I will give the bridging a go today.

Yeah, I saw those indicators on your controller. Thought maybe even they might be wired wrong. Lights also may not run without the common connected as a reference........But I'm clutching at straws now.

Got my fingers crossed, hoping the bridging will get you going.

Just don't forget to switch the pump off when you're done, or it seems that it will run indefinitely.

[123rover50]

I am still thinking its a voltage problem so put the bridging of the probes for later.
Decided to use Deanos suggestion to see if it would run off batteries.
Bought up the 24volt skidsteer, some leads and the tractor battery.
(forgot the fuse) Anyway it all fired up and started pumping:D
The battery voltage dropped to 32volt but it kept going.
Now the funny thing is I put the volt meter on the 3 wires going to the pump. Nothing. No matter which way I tested between the wires I got no reading.
Just thought now. Could it be converting to AC somehow.
When I go back I will try again for AC current.
So maybe if I swap these panels for the 19volt ones all will be OK.

[123rover50]

Learn something every day.
The current going to the pump is AC.
No matter which pair of the three I tested with the meter on AC I got 24volts

[Graeme]

and 3 phase at that?

[d@rk51d3]

Good news. So putting in the correct panels should do it.

[DeanoH]

Good job. :D A set of decent panels and all's good by the look of it.
Sort of makes sense now, aah...............hindsight, 'swapping any two wires changes direction of motor', I think you said earlier. Got AC 3 phase characteristics written all over it, but I wasn't sharp enough to pick it up. :(

Anyway you've got it nailed now, well done. :)

Deano :)

[123rover50]

Yes, thanks to all for the ideas.
I will put the probes down the hole anyway to shut it off if the bore gets low.
Might experiment to see if I can use the same terminals to shut off when the tank is full. But I doubt that will work somehow.
Havnt heard back from the vendor yet. He is still awaiting a respone from China I suppose.

[DeanoH]

From the pic you posted, the terminals are TL, TM & TH. I'd read these as tank low, tank medium (or tank coMmon) and tank high :), not WL or WH (well low or high). From the description on the controller front panel the lower LED is Source (well) Low and also labelled under current. From this I'd assume that the controller senses when the pump is dry as no water = no load = low current draw so the alarm comes up and (presumably) the motor is turned off, otherwise what's the point of the alarm ? Pretty easy to test. With the pump running lift it out of the water and see what happens. :o

The Over Current alarm (with the high water level graphic) has me a bit confused but perhaps it assumes a ball valve in the tank which cuts off when the tank's full which then puts back pressure on the pump which makes it work harder = higher current. Don't really know, just guessing here. It would also come on if the screw was clogged with sand or whatever. Didn't you say that the old feller said the pump had its own built in protection ?

Just a few thoughts.

Deano:)

[tonic]

From the pic you posted, the terminals are TL, TM & TH. I'd read these as tank low, tank medium (or tank coMmon) and tank high :), not WL or WH (well low or high). From the description on the controller front panel the lower LED is Source (well) Low and also labelled under current. From this I'd assume that the controller senses when the pump is dry as no water = no load = low current draw so the alarm comes up and (presumably) the motor is turned off, otherwise what's the point of the alarm ? Pretty easy to test. With the pump running lift it out of the water and see what happens. :o

The Over Current alarm (with the high water level graphic) has me a bit confused but perhaps it assumes a ball valve in the tank which cuts off when the tank's full which then puts back pressure on the pump which makes it work harder = higher current. Don't really know, just guessing here. It would also come on if the screw was clogged with sand or whatever. Didn't you say that the old feller said the pump had its own built in protection ?

Just a few thoughts.

Deano:)


From what I understand from the pump shop blokes, they use high and low water probes to turn the pump on and off. From what I understood these were sensors of some kind.

[123rover50]

From the pic you posted, the terminals are TL, TM & TH. I'd read these as tank low, tank medium (or tank coMmon) and tank high :), not WL or WH (well low or high). From the description on the controller front panel the lower LED is Source (well) Low and also labelled under current. From this I'd assume that the controller senses when the pump is dry as no water = no load = low current draw so the alarm comes up and (presumably) the motor is turned off, otherwise what's the point of the alarm ? Pretty easy to test. With the pump running lift it out of the water and see what happens. :o

The Over Current alarm (with the high water level graphic) has me a bit confused but perhaps it assumes a ball valve in the tank which cuts off when the tank's full which then puts back pressure on the pump which makes it work harder = higher current. Don't really know, just guessing here. It would also come on if the screw was clogged with sand or whatever. Didn't you say that the old feller said the pump had its own built in protection ?

Just a few thoughts.

Deano:)
Yes , I asked him about the probes and he said they were tank probes and the pump would cut off if low. Dont know how it would start again tthough because if it started as soon as the water covered it then it would stop again pretty soon. At least with the probes it wont start untill a fair depth of water is over the pump. The young feller is not real good at replying to emails or phone calls. I still have to set up a time to swap panels. As you say , I could pull the pump up running till it stops then lower it back untill it starts. See if it starts straight away or untill its lowered down a fair bit.