Found a donor truck

[JohnF]

Hi, I found a small rusted Isuzu truck, a 1987 NKR585A, which has been fitted with a bigger motor and five speed box, do not know which one. It was originally a 3.3 Liter, 4 speed, but they say it now has a bigger motor and a five speed Gearbox.

The engine number on the block is 112025.

They do not know what Isuzu motor they put into it.

So how can I work that out.

It has new clutch, and needs new ring gear.

last Rego was paid on 04-12-2009. Was told ring gear went a few weeks later, so it has been sitting a while, rusting.

Have not made an offer yet, so do not know how much, but need to know what the motor is, for a planned swap.

Also is a ring gear fitted expensive???

Also is the adapter kit for a transfer onto the MSA Gearbox--assuming it is a MSA gearbox-- How do I tell-- still available.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Last we heard was that Sheldon (The Grubb) was tooling up for a production run of the MSA to LT230 adapters, but haven't heard anything for several months.

Like you I'm looking/waiting for his adapter kit too. My 6X6 project is stalled waiting for it.

[Dougal]

They were all 5 speed. So possibly expect a msb box with the cover on the sides, not top like the msa.
Look for engine letters on the side of the block. Can you view the truck?

[JohnF]

They were all 5 speed. So possibly expect a msb box with the cover on the sides, not top like the msa.
Look for engine letters on the side of the block. Can you view the truck?

It is parked near a wall in a crowded Yard of Cars to be repaired. I viewed it through the LH door today-- should have looked for a turbo, but did not. prefer a Non-Turbo 4BE1 I think, but will not worry if it has a Turbo.

So I can look at the truck when that yard is open. Did not see engine letters, but did not know where to look. Only seen that yard open twice, once last week, when I found out who owned it--it is a block from his business, and today when I found the engine number and compared it to the expired Rego papers, of which I do have a copy. He-- a dealer, who appears not to deal much--he is a bit out of the way, and may be semi retired, and many of his cars have been their for years--gave me that photocopy for info on that truck.

I have been looking at that truck wondering if it is an Isuzu, and wondering why it was parked there for several years now, I guess since a few weeks after Rego was last paid as dated in my first post.

[rijidij]

Look at the bottom L/H side of the block. This is where the engine type is cast into it.
Turbo and non turbo 4BD1's are all marked 4BD1, no T for turbo.

Cheers, Murray

[JohnF]

They were all 5 speed. So possibly expect a msb box with the cover on the sides, not top like the msa.
Look for engine letters on the side of the block. Can you view the truck?

So is the adaption for both model gearboxes the same. And if we can get an adapter kit will it fit both??? Can someone please answer that question.

If kits cannot be sourced is one of these gearboxes easier to adapt than the other.

[JohnF]

Last we heard was that Sheldon (The Grubb) was tooling up for a production run of the MSA to LT230 adapters, but haven't heard anything for several months.

Like you I'm looking/waiting for his adapter kit too. My 6X6 project is stalled waiting for it.

So please does anyone know if a kit is coming, or is there any other kit???

How hard is it to adapt without a kit-- I assume this has been done???

Or should we forget the idea of a Isuzu???

[Lotz-A-Landies]

A kit made by one person can surely be made by someone else, but reinventing the wheel.

Maybe I'm stoopid, but I am waiting and hoping for Sheldon to be on top of it. Also hoping that he's actually O.K. - has anyone heard?

[Dougal]

So is the adaption for both model gearboxes the same. And if we can get an adapter kit will it fit both??? Can someone please answer that question.

If kits cannot be sourced is one of these gearboxes easier to adapt than the other.

Bellhousing is the same adaption. May require a different clutch spline.
Gear linkages are completely different. They will adapt fine to cables, but linkages would need a complete redesign from Sheldons effort.

[Hall]

I have fitted a MSB gear box to a 4bb1. Then made a adapter to use a lt235 transfer. Gear selection was very easy to sort out and works a treat. If thiis is a Isuzu motor and box then all you need is the transfer adapter and gear selection to sort out.
Cheers Hall

[Ancient Mariner]

I have fitted a MSB gear box to a 4bb1. Then made a adapter to use a lt235 transfer. Gear selection was very easy to sort out and works a treat. If thiis is a Isuzu motor and box then all you need is the transfer adapter and gear selection to sort out.
Cheers Hall
Lt235 ?
Thanks AM

[Hall]

Lt235 ?LT 230 OK, so I pressed the wrong key sheeze only got one digit wrong, picky picky picky :)
Cheers Hall

[workingonit]

JohnF - getting Isuzu engine and gearbox by all accounts is worth it, so I'll be persisting with my conversion. Don't intend this as a thread hi-jack, hoping my questions might be relevant to your situation.

I've left phone messages, emails etc for Sheldon but no response as yet. I'll rely on the confidence of those who know him that he'll come through.

In the mean time, can anyone tell me the gap I must leave between the MSA5 speed and the LT230 transfer box for Sheldon's adapter? I can then make a temporary frame to join the two components. Ideally I would like to hear from a few who have used Sheldon's adapter for the MSA5/LT230 in case there has been any variance as Sheldon worked toward developing optimum fit - or has there been only one iteration?

Also, as a temporary measure I have purchased an output shaft, long spline, which I intend to mate to a home made flange, to bolt to the existing flange at the rear of the MSA5 box - I assume this is how Sheldon's set up goes together - this contrivance will in theory allow me to align the MSA5 with the LT230, using the temporary frame to hold it all together. Then I should be able to move on to the engine mounts.

Speaking of engine mounts, has anyone actually drawn up some CAD designs for the mounts and any other fabricated items required (thinking of people like Dougal). Note this is my first attempt at an engine transplant so anything to smooth the process would be appreciated. I've got access to an old series frame for stock. I'm going to try and fit the Isuzu set up into a 1982 Range Rover.

Also, can anyone tell me if it is OK to mount the 4bd1 to an engine trolley (cheap 560kg job from Supercheap) via the bell housing, or should it be mounted directly to the block - is the bell housing strong enough? For the moment I just want to move the engine around the shed as space is required, without having to resort to the engine crane all the time.

Cheers.

[Dougal]

My engine uses mounts adapted to the v8 chassis mounts. It's not ideal. The angle of the v8 mounts is too steep and gives too much engine vertical motion over bumps. You'll need to fabricate isuzu mounts.

[Ancient Mariner]

I used 175 mm between tc and gear box to suit Grubs shaft but in the end did my own thing. Found that dimension in one of his posts here I used toyota diesel engine mounts post somewhere on here As for the bell housing I would`nt:eek:

AM

[Ancient Mariner]

LT 230 OK, so I pressed the wrong key sheeze only got one digit wrong, picky picky picky :)
Cheers Hall
Not being picky thought it might be the code for the new 5 speed TC:D

[Dougal]

JohnF - getting Isuzu engine and gearbox by all accounts is worth it, so I'll be persisting with my conversion. Don't intend this as a thread hi-jack, hoping my questions might be relevant to your situation.

I've left phone messages, emails etc for Sheldon but no response as yet. I'll rely on the confidence of those who know him that he'll come through.

In the mean time, can anyone tell me the gap I must leave between the MSA5 speed and the LT230 transfer box for Sheldon's adapter? I can then make a temporary frame to join the two components. Ideally I would like to hear from a few who have used Sheldon's adapter for the MSA5/LT230 in case there has been any variance as Sheldon worked toward developing optimum fit - or has there been only one iteration?

Also, as a temporary measure I have purchased an output shaft, long spline, which I intend to mate to a home made flange, to bolt to the existing flange at the rear of the MSA5 box - I assume this is how Sheldon's set up goes together - this contrivance will in theory allow me to align the MSA5 with the LT230, using the temporary frame to hold it all together. Then I should be able to move on to the engine mounts.

Speaking of engine mounts, has anyone actually drawn up some CAD designs for the mounts and any other fabricated items required (thinking of people like Dougal). Note this is my first attempt at an engine transplant so anything to smooth the process would be appreciated. I've got access to an old series frame for stock. I'm going to try and fit the Isuzu set up into a 1982 Range Rover.

Also, can anyone tell me if it is OK to mount the 4bd1 to an engine trolley (cheap 560kg job from Supercheap) via the bell housing, or should it be mounted directly to the block - is the bell housing strong enough? For the moment I just want to move the engine around the shed as space is required, without having to resort to the engine crane all the time.

Cheers.

I'm wondering what you need the adapters for?

Your gearbox will bolt to the engine. That's sorted.
Your gear-shift (if MSB ) is completely different to Sheldons kit.
Your output shaft and home-made flange could easily become a real adapter shaft.
All you then need is the fabrication between box and LT230.

If you are worried about the engine stand, then just make a prop for the front of the engine when mounted.

[Hall]

After paying a arm, leg and kidney for the Isuzu engine mounts for a 4bb1 (same for all 4b series motors. ). I found on this site as posted by Ancient Marine that Toyota mounts and more pacific Hilux mounts do the same job and cheaper. You can get the Hilux mounts non genuine were as the Isuzu ones have to be genuine. Do remember though that you have to either open a bolt hole up or drill a new one. Either way not a real issue.
Cheers Hall

[workingonit]

Dougal, my apologies, I should have said MSA5 gearbox.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

After paying a arm, leg and kidney for the Isuzu engine mounts for a 4bb1 (same for all 4b series motors. ). I found on this site as posted by Ancient Marine that Toyota mounts and more pacific Hilux mounts do the same job and cheaper. You can get the Hilux mounts non genuine were as the Isuzu ones have to be genuine. Do remember though that you have to either open a bolt hole up or drill a new one. Either way not a real issue.
Cheers HallDo you have the Toyota part number or the actual model so we can add it to the Isuzu part number thread?

Diana

[Hall]

Do you have the Toyota part number or the actual model so we can add it to the Isuzu part number thread?
sorry don`t have the part number, but this is the mounts on ebay.
2 Front Engine Mount Toyota Hilux 2L 3L 5L 4x4 LN106 LN111 LN130 LN167 LN172 NEW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Front-Engine-Mount-Toyota-Hilux-2L-3L-5L-4x4-LN106-LN111-LN130-LN167-LN172-New-/130654556240?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e6b9e5050) I paid a lot more than $27.75. Well over $100 from memory. Tried a google search for the Isuzu ones and no luck.
Cheers Hall

[workingonit]

Thanks Hall for the Hilux mount info, and AM for the gap info and bell housing advice.

Regarding Dougal's comments:

- you suggest fabricating Isuzu mounts, so I guess from that comment that simply cutting and repositioning original v8 engine mounts is not going to work very well.

- yes, the engine and gearbox bolt together no probs and re-reading I did say MSA5 :) so I think Sheldon's gear change mechanism should work? The gear change I probably could fabricate myself from scrap plate and steel rod on hand, using Sheldon's photos.

- making the 'spud shaft' adapter and the 'torsion tube' myself presents two problems. Regarding the torsion tube there is my lack of knowledge of the specifications required, such as whether I can use round or box section steel, size and wall thickness; and mated to what thickness flat plate for flanges.

- regarding the 'spud shaft'. I can stick, mig and oxy weld and have lathe and mill. But will I be de-tempering or creating stress zones. Should all the parts be welded in a heat box. Should the parts also be press fit as well as welded. I have no insight as to how Sheldon has approached the various issues.

I had trouble enough in Darwin finding a 4bd1t engine plus gearbox - only one wrecker had anything. So I am reluctant to screw the gearbox up by something I've made that is sub standard. In Darwin, finding the right materials and expertise can be very difficult at times (someone in Darwin please write in and say that's not the case :) and point me to the resources).

Having said all that, if some of you want to goad me into doing it myself by providing what sounds like the right advice or having successfully done the same yourself then I will give it a go!

AM indicates torque tube about 175mm, which is quite short, I guess. Would any of the steel pipe I have on hand suit:

- round pipe 165 x 7.5 or 114 x 5 or 89 x 4.5
- square pipe 150 x 150 x 5

Has anyone killed a Sheldon fabricated shaft? How hard have people pushed their vehicles? Anyone monitoring spline wear? I appreciate Dougal's set up is different, cut from solid, and he has expressed better peace of mind for that :) Has anyone used a modified drive shaft with universal joints? Dog clutch? Anyone remotely mounted their transfer case?

I believe the male end of the 'spud shaft' is universal SAE 10. Not being familiar with where you would use what spline for what purpose can anyone enlighten me? Is it for slip? I wondered, and saw someone else pose the same thought, why you would not use say 28 or 32 splines into an input gear re-cut to match (provided there was enough meat)?

Has any thought been given to having an AULRO resource thread on places around Oz (and o/s) that do automotive related things such as gear cutting, lazer cutting, tempering, specialised welding, cryo treatment etc. Living in Darwin it is one thing to troll the yellow pages or net to find someone interstate that may be capable versus being able to drive across town in Syd/Melb/Bris/Perth etc and find its what you want or find its an amateur set up and you should not waste your money.

[Dougal]

I got you confused with someone else for the gearbox. Yes Grubbs kit is built for the MSA series.

The adapter shafts you can either do what I've done (female to male shaft), what Grubb did (one piece shaft bolting to the output shaft) or what Ancient Mariner did with a floating shaft and splined flange onto the output flange.

The torsion tube mainly needs to be big enough to clear all the spinning bits. From there it's a few plates with holes to pick-up whatever you need it to. Weld it all together and machine the faces flat and bore concentric afterwards.

[Hall]

I am a toolmaker so the adapter stub shaft for my gear box is on piece. Do no of one that has a rigid collar with the rubber dampener (as per thing go for me I found this out after I made mine.) . It is supposed to reduced wear on the spline. Is a very easy way of doing the shaft as you only need a , from memory, about a forty millimetre shaft of the right length.
Coupling will be more than strong enough. The centre rubber or synthetic damper used in this situation should last for near ever, especially if the alignment of the adapter is precise.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/664.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/02/665.jpg
Some thing along the lines of these couplings.
Cheers Hall

[Dougal]

A coupling to take out vibration and misalignment can only be a good thing. Just keep in mind it has to take ~2000Nm in a worst case situation.

I've been thinking more about more about my vibration issue and I think it's from the transfercase. Suspect input gear bearings and worn out thrusts on the intermediate shaft.
Ashcroft have the ideal solution, but my budget seldom covers ideal solutions.

[JohnF]

I looked at that motor today and found 4BD ? on it-- could not make out the last number/letter. So it appears to be the 4BD1.

As it was raining I did not get underneath to work out which 5 speed box.

So planning on making an offer.

It is 24 volt. alternator would not be a problem. Guess we could start on two batteries 24 volt, and run everything else on one battery 12 volt.

But the thought came to me, what about vacuum for brakes [power assist]. Our series 3 since sold had a Vacuum pump for power assist brakes, mounted on back of alternator. Certainly just got rid of Peugeot 505 wrecks with vacuum pump for the brakes. If I had thought we could have kept the pump.

[Hall]

It will have a vac pump at the back of the alternator. I have two sealed battery's under the passenger seat for the 24 volt and a large12 volt battery for every thing else fitted behind the cab. My ute has only a thermo fan which is 24 volt as is the spot lights. Good thing with having a separate 12 volt battery is you can drain the 12 volt and still start. Not easy to find another 24 volt vehicle out in the bush to jump start from. You may need to, as my ute has, fit a second 12 volt alternator. This is a good idea as you can fit a high amp unit. My 12 volt alternator fits above the 24 volt alternator and is a 90 amp ford alternator. They have a built in regulator which makes fitting and wiring up a lot easier.
Cheers Hall

[JohnF]

Thanks, I had not thought about not being able to jump start with the 24 volt. Must keep that in mind and check the prices on 12 volt Starters.

It is for going into a 1991 Range Rover Classic, so batteries under seat could be out. RRC has two positions for batteries in the engine compartment,so it is easy enough to wire in a second Battery--well for an auto-electrician to do this.

We had a previous classic running two batteries, simple terminal switches to change from one battery to the other, so we always had one fully charged. Like that Idea.

This truck is a NON-Turbo motor, but turbos can be added later. Must price a ring gear,as we will need one.

[Dougal]

Starting voltage in the wops matters how? Just tow-start it. You can do that with horses.
If it's a dead battery and you can't tow start it, then just jump that battery.

My rangie starts on 24v and switches to 12v for everything else. It's a series/parallel switch that's very common in recreational vehicles.

Getting jump started has never, ever concerned me. Once I had two mates vehicles on jumper-leads, one on each battery.

[workingonit]

While on the topic of ancillaries I had a look at my engine on the floor of the shed and wondered what I will need to do about power steering - is there a gear driven power steering pump that I'm not recognising?

My engine is missing the starter, but has the 24 volt alternator (the only external ancillary the engine seemed to be powering via the harmonic balancer) with vacuum pump at the rear (for brake assist). Do I throw the alternator and get both items as 12 volt (more cost) or just get a 24v starter and look at how to deal with other 12 volt demands as some of you have. Wonder which is going to be the most time/cost effective approach?

When you were breast feeding your two mates were there seven hills in the background - it just sprang to mind when I read the post - sorry :) Romulus and Remus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Vern]

Power steering pump is located on the left hand side of the harmonic balanced, the is a triangular plate with three bolts, it goes in there. If you need a pump, a 6bd1 is the same, fairly cheap from a truck wreckers.

[Vern]

Oh forgot, its gear driven as well.

As for the 24v thing, just find 12v stuff, sooooo much less frigging around. I used a gq deisel patrol alternator, bracket requires only a minor mod.

[workingonit]

Thanks for all that useful info Vern - makes life that bit easier. Just ducked over to the shed to look at the cover plate where I might attach power steering. The 4bd1 engine together with the LT230 offer quite a few power output options.

Now where is the cover plate for the gear driven aircon compressor? Otherwise how have people adapted? GQ Patrol again by chance? :)

Just out of curiosity does someone know anyone who runs their RRC or Def or Disco without power steering? I mean not just a unit with a broken pump or hose etc - I've experienced the pump unit failing, and it is way so heavy compared to the non-powered steering I was used to in older vehicles. And I might add, that failure related to putting a washer behind the belt tensioner to change alignment and stop the tensioner squealing. Never again.

[Dougal]

When you were breast feeding your two mates were there seven hills in the background - it just sprang to mind when I read the post - sorry :) Romulus and Remus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus)

You've lost me completely with that analogy.

I run 12v everything (incl alternator). Only the starter is 24v. Well the glow plugs are 24v too. But they aren't hooked up.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Thanks for all that useful info Vern - makes life that bit easier. Just ducked over to the shed to look at the cover plate where I might attach power steering. The 4bd1 engine together with the LT230 offer quite a few power output options.

Now where is the cover plate for the gear driven aircon compressor? Otherwise how have people adapted? GQ Patrol again by chance? :)

The best you could likely find would be the timing case off a 6B?? engine that will have the brake air compressor and the power steering pump locations.

[workingonit]

thanks lotza - I was hoping as a joke there might be a spot on the block where you could attach a gear driven airconditioning aircompressor. Otherwise, given my engine only has one v belt pully to drive the alternator, how have people adapted airconditioning (which in theory would then require a twin v pully on the crank)- I plan on trying to mount the original v8 airconditioning compressor. Or are you actually saying that a brake aircompressor can really substitute for your regular airconditioning compressor in an airconditioning system, which would be interesting?! Cheers.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't believe direct gear driven a/c pump is an option, at least one without a clutch.

On many makes of vehicles the A/C pulley on the crank is actually a bolt on component. It may be possible to adapt yours in the same manner although the ideal would be to get a twin pulley off another engine. I have also seen people who mount an A/C compressor on the engine to use the original belt and use the second V to run a second belt to the alternator or a twin V alternator pulley to do it the other way. I don't know if you have ever seen it but the mid 80s 3.5 V8s used 4 belts.

[Dougal]

thanks lotza - I was hoping as a joke there might be a spot on the block where you could attach a gear driven airconditioning aircompressor. Otherwise, given my engine only has one v belt pully to drive the alternator, how have people adapted airconditioning (which in theory would then require a twin v pully on the crank)- I plan on trying to mount the original v8 airconditioning compressor. Or are you actually saying that a brake aircompressor can really substitute for your regular airconditioning compressor in an airconditioning system, which would be interesting?! Cheers.

Second bolt on pulley drives the AC compressor.

[workingonit]

Made another dash to the shed (130 metre round trip).

The 82 RRC has a one piece, three groove, dampener. The 84 RRC has the same, but with the addition of a bolt on single, giving a total of 4 grooves.

Then to the 4bd1t on the shed floor - the arc of the fan covers part of the arc of the dampener, so there is enough room for 1 bolt on, maybe 2 if cast as one piece.

Running the single dampener to a double on the aircon/alternator double also sounds good.

I spoke to Sheldon about this RRC conversion and he was thinking his gear change mechanism might bring the gear stick too close to the dash when compared to the Defender/County/110.

I believe the 82 vehicle probably came originally with the LT95 4 speed, but the guy I bought it from says it was swapped out by another previous owner for what might be an LT85? 5 speed, reverse is right and to the rear. Plenty of room between dash and gear stick.

The 84 vehicle has I think the LT77 5 speed, reverse is left and forward - it sits very close to the dash.

Anyway, using the transfer case as point of origin, I've done some basic measurements, and with Sheldons kit on the MSA it may as he suspects sit slightly under the line of the dash.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The early RRc had a long stick even in the LT77 so you may find that sheldon's mechanism with the stick angled a bit more may work. Its the later discos that moved the stick further back.


Power steering pump is located on the left hand side of the harmonic balanced, the is a triangular plate with three bolts, it goes in there. If you need a pump, a 6bd1 is the same, fairly cheap from a truck wreckers.LHS when looking at the front of the engine, but RHS of the crank centreline when using normal automotive terminology.

[Vern]

Yep, left hand side, going to be hard to see the triangular plate if your looking from the back of the motor:)

As for the grubbs kit fitting in a rangie, I have it in my soft dash, fits fine, gear stick comes up where the old tbar shifter was. I had to get his kit as the lt95 came up under the dash:(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yep, left hand side, going to be hard to see the triangular plate if your looking from the back of the motor:)

As for the grubbs kit fitting in a rangie, I have it in my soft dash, fits fine, gear stick comes up where the old tbar shifter was. I had to get his kit as the lt95 came up under the dash:(So then I can describe your right hand as your left hand because when I look at you its on the left. Just imagine how many mistaken amputations we could achieve if we were that laissez faire with descriptive terminology. :confused:

[workingonit]

Yea, I put a mirror in front of the engine and then looked from the rear...no probs :)

Vern, just need clarification on your comments. I'm not sure what a 'soft dash' is - Disco adaption?, and if so then can I take a Disco dash into an 80's RRC?

Was the fire wall in a soft dash in a different position to the earlier RRC 'hard dash'? One dash is falling apart, you can poke your finger through the top (really soft). And I can't believe there is no glove box!

Anyway, in your situation where you had a successful install of Sheldon's shift system, was that on a 4bdt1 and msa5 combination, as is my proposal - although I have manual land rover gearboxes I've no intention of using them. I was a bit confused by the comment that you had to get his kit because the lt95 came out under the dash. You mean you tried to adapt the lt95 shifter to the MSA box?

Cheers guys.

[Vern]

OK, I had an lt95 and 4bd1, this bolts in fine in any rrc except the soft dash model(94), the body shape and firewall are exactly the same but it has basically the same dash as a disco 1 and 2. The dash obviously protrudes into the cab more therefore the gear stick ends up coming through the floor directly under the dash so can't be used (in a soft dash and guessing a disco)!
However I'd think that and r380 or lt85 would fit.
So as the lt95 would not fit in the soft dash, I purchased grubbs kit (whole thing, msa, shifter, adapter etc...) as it locates the shifter in the r380 (original tbar) position.
Anyway, it fits like a glove.:)

[Vern]

So then I can describe your right hand as your left hand because when I look at you its on the left. Just imagine how many mistaken amputations we could achieve if we were that laissez faire with descriptive terminology. :confused:

As I said, if looking at the triangular plate it is located on the left hand side of the harmonic balancer.
Moderator or not, you are being rediculous!

[Dougal]

OK, I had an lt95 and 4bd1, this bolts in fine in any rrc except the soft dash model(94), the body shape and firewall are exactly the same but it has basically the same dash as a disco 1 and 2. The dash obviously protrudes into the cab more therefore the gear stick ends up coming through the floor directly under the dash so can't be used (in a soft dash and guessing a disco)!
However I'd think that and r380 or lt85 would fit.
So as the lt95 would not fit in the soft dash, I purchased grubbs kit (whole thing, msa, shifter, adapter etc...) as it locates the shifter in the r380 (original tbar) position.
Anyway, it fits like a glove.:)

You've got Grubb's later short-stick conversion kit in the soft-dash?

[JohnF]

On our Isuzu Series 3 [now sold] we had the 12 volt starter rebuilt with a brand new commutator, etc. Done at the Engineers where my son works as a boilermaker, hence paid little for labor.

So i am now wondering about whether or not the 24 volt starter can be rebuilt as a 12 volt.

Do not see a problem with changing alternator. Will a RR V8 one fit-- we have a V8 wreck for spares.

The electric stop mechanism, will that have to be changed from 24 volt to 12 volt??? [our series 3 had a string pull stop, as the replacement stop cable was too short. Would prefer to not have electrics except Starter, Alternator & battery, but understand cable stop will be illegal.]

[Ancient Mariner]

As I said, if looking at the triangular plate it is located on the left hand side of the harmonic balancer.
Moderator or not, you are being rediculous!
A girly thing:D

[steveG]

On our Isuzu Series 3 [now sold] we had the 12 volt starter rebuilt with a brand new commutator, etc. Done at the Engineers where my son works as a boilermaker, hence paid little for labor.

So i am now wondering about whether or not the 24 volt starter can be rebuilt as a 12 volt.

Do not see a problem with changing alternator. Will a RR V8 one fit-- we have a V8 wreck for spares.

The electric stop mechanism, will that have to be changed from 24 volt to 12 volt??? [our series 3 had a string pull stop, as the replacement stop cable was too short. Would prefer to not have electrics except Starter, Alternator & battery, but understand cable stop will be illegal.]

Electric stop from a Mazda T3500 truck is 12volt, cheap from truck wreckers (think I paid $50 for mine), and does the job very reliably.

Steve

[Vern]

You've got Grubb's later short-stick conversion kit in the soft-dash?

Not sure, it was the first of the shifters with the correct shift pattern:D

[Hall]

With my ute the person who did the motor install used a range rover power steering pump. Fits under the alternator. Good thing with this is you can use the same plumbing as well. Motor has a double pulley on the water pump. Groove closest to the motor is a B section groove for the twenty four volt alternator and the water pump and the other is a A section for the power steering pump and twelve volt alternator. The twenty four volt starter has a lot more grunt than the twelve volt one. Not habit forming to forget that you are in gear and try and start. The ute has pull stop. But this goes by the year of the chassis.
Cheers Hall

[JohnF]

My question is, SINCE Grubbs kit for putting the LT 230 onto the MSA gearbox is apparently unavailable, is there any one else anywhere in the world producing a kit to do this conversion. Thanks for replies and discussion so far.

[workingonit]

Hi JohnF,

I mentioned on the 19th in this thread that I had spoken to Sheldon or 'grubb', although I did not elaborate on our conversation. Sheldon said that the MSA/LT230 adaptor and gear change mechanism will be available subject to numbers required and cost. For my project, MSA to LT230, Sheldon's only concern was where the gear stick would sit in relation to the RRC 'hard' dash. If Vern and I have not got our wires crossed then as Vern says 'it should fit like a glove' and I should not be concerned. Shelddon said he will be back on the forums 'soon' :)

[workingonit]

Further, to condition us to the cost of this sort of exercise.

I was beginning to feel time was running out and I would need to develop parts myself. This is my first engine transplant.

I rang one 4x4 conversion kit supplier here in Australia to see if they had anything off the shelf for the MSA, but no. I asked what would a one off adaptor shaft machined from solid cost me as a rough guide (no torque tube, no gear changer if we understood each other correctly). The conversation roughly:

Supplier: when we tell people the cost for a one off they usually feel sick.
Me: Two grand?
Supplier: more...
Me: three!!!
Supplier: more...generally over $4k.

Maybe if I checked out more suppliers I might find better pricing.

I'll leave Sheldon to provide his prices, but by comparison his appears to be good value. I've written to a couple of firms overseas but had no response.

[mudmouse]

Rakeway in the UK do some components that could mate to the MSA/MXA.



This would require a divorced transfer, but is a good option.

The cable shift is pretty easy to arrange, just grab a cable from a Corolla or similar and nut it out.

Matt

[workingonit]

Thanks mudmouse. From memory Ashcroft recommended Rakeway, and I wrote, but no reply - some say you need to phone them - maybe another day, depending on overall cost and time to production of Sheldon's kit.

[JohnF]

Sheldon, we would like the price please. I would welcome you back.

[Dougal]

Further, to condition us to the cost of this sort of exercise.

I was beginning to feel time was running out and I would need to develop parts myself. This is my first engine transplant.

I rang one 4x4 conversion kit supplier here in Australia to see if they had anything off the shelf for the MSA, but no. I asked what would a one off adaptor shaft machined from solid cost me as a rough guide (no torque tube, no gear changer if we understood each other correctly). The conversation roughly:

Supplier: when we tell people the cost for a one off they usually feel sick.
Me: Two grand?
Supplier: more...
Me: three!!!
Supplier: more...generally over $4k.

Maybe if I checked out more suppliers I might find better pricing.

I'll leave Sheldon to provide his prices, but by comparison his appears to be good value. I've written to a couple of firms overseas but had no response.

A reputable supplier quoted me $800 for my adapter shaft back in 2007.
Unfortunately I went with a cheaper supplier and had to finish and harden the shaft myself.
$4k is taking the ****.

[Hall]

The adaptor shaft that I made cost $200 for the spline to be cut and hardening. The shaft as a blank bit of shaft was under a $100. A few hours turning and drilling. So I could do it for mate rates and still be in front, say $3500 :angel: Geeze even $800 I would be still well in front. :eek:
Cheers Hall

[workingonit]

I did suspect some taking of the non-alcoholic yellow amber with those prices.

Hmmm...glad all these competitive quotes are coming out...$800 Oz for Hall's and $800 NZ for Dougal...factor in shipping, probably cheaper to and from NZ than with in Oz...they'll be competing with Oz car part manufacturers with nothing to do...any lower offer than $800?

[workingonit]

Can anyone name 'names' of professional machinists they've work with before on this sort of part?

[THE 109]

Outcast off-road on the gold coast is currently developing a billet alloy adapter to suit the MSA-5 to LT230.
The shaft will be heat treated hytuff from what they have told me so far.

They will be in production shortly after the first batch are put through a testing phase, if all goes well they will have them stocked on the shelf all the time.
At this stage there is no gear shifter conversion made up so they will need to be made by the person doing the conversion.

For any info give Greg at Outcast off-road a call on 0424 705 300.


Eric

[Dougal]

My adapter shaft wad splined on both ends. Internal spline was edm spark eroded. This is a dearer process than the bolt on shafts but lower material cost.

[Ancient Mariner]

Do a search for MXA-5R there is some stuff that could be useful

AM

[Vern]

So is Sheldon no longer providing kits?.??

[workingonit]

Re Vern's question - spoke to Sheldon some days ago now. Hate to speak on his behalf but the impression was that he was still interested in supplying adaptor kits and he would be back on the threads 'soon'.

Wonder if Outcast are open weekends. At least some options are opening up.

Eric 'The 109', how did you find out about Outcast producing MSA adaptors?

[Hall]

Well I could make you a shaft for less than $800 that is easy enough. It is the adaptor from the gear box to the transfer case that is the more interesting bit of work. This is were Sheldon has done his home work. The one I made for my conversion works well, but is not as neat as the one Sheldon makes. IF I was to use a MSA box the gear change would be different. This is in no way a reflection on Sheldons work. Just different people working the same problems and coming up with different solution to the problem. Both will work. My solution would be a internal gear shift conversion. If you want the job done now then it would be Sheldons kit as it is ready to go. That is if he is making them. If you have time you could get parts from others. I might be able to do a conversion for you, with a neater adaptor, If I can access a lathe and mill, will need to ask on that point. But it will take a bit of time and I would need to work out a price. One sticky point is that I would need a MSA box to work with.
Cheers Hall

[workingonit]

Thanks for the offer Hall, I'll keep it in mind, but at this stage don't expend any of your time on my account. I have a lathe and mill, but I am self taught and just get by :)

I'm beginning to think a rated shaft by Outcast and Sheldon quality shifter and torque tube will be the go, provided the shaft exceeds Sheldon's 2000Nm mash point, and the torque tube is compatible with Outcast shaft.

[THE 109]

I know Greg at Outcast and he told me that he has customers wanting this adapter, he couldn't wait for Sheldon any longer and has started to make his own.

To clear things up, he will be making shafts and adapter housings so you just need to sort the gear shifter(Transfer case shifter is sorted as are mounts back to chassis) .

He's away camping this weekend but Monday morning he'll be back at work.

Eric

[Dougal]

I'm beginning to think a rated shaft by Outcast and Sheldon quality shifter and torque tube will be the go, provided the shaft exceeds Sheldon's 2000Nm mash point, and the torque tube is compatible with Outcast shaft.

Hold on.
I'll take credit for all the strength calcs thanks.;)

[workingonit]

Sorry Dougal...I did have NZ in mind when I was writing...but yes, Dougal's calcs.

Thanks Eric for the elaboration.

[workingonit]

Outcast update. For his own purposes Greg will be arranging production of two or three adaptor kits (housing and shaft) in the next two or three weeks. Unless some viable alternative comes along I intend to piggy back on Gregs production run and get a kit made for my self. Such a limited run will be expensive. If anyone is still interested in the MSA to LT230 adaptor then please contact Greg.