ALCOA CLOSING

[Roverlord off road spares]

Alcoa is closing ops in Australia, the tsunami of closures is continuing.
I watched a media speech not so long ago where Abbott was saying that our business will change, where we loose manufacturing, technology jobs will take their place.
So all these unskilled production process workers who are job less are going to fill IT jobs???:eek:, some are getting on and retraining is not an option.
With the country becoming unemployed who is going to pay the welfare of all these unemployed workers who lost their jobs, Higher taxes on the ones that are lucky to still have a job.

[Chucaro]

The only way to reply to your post is by moving this thread to The Cantina.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

This may have something to do with the soon-to-be global shortage of aluminium,, with Detroit switching lots of sheet metal over to ally the two big ally providors are in a slight pickle---

[Bigbjorn]

Alcoa is closing ops in Australia, the tsunami of closures is continuing.
I watched a media speech not so long ago where Abbott was saying that our business will change, where we loose manufacturing, technology jobs will take their place.
So all these unskilled production process workers who are job less are going to fill IT jobs???:eek:, some are getting on and retraining is not an option.
With the country becoming unemployed who is going to pay the welfare of all these unemployed workers who lost their jobs, Higher taxes on the ones that are lucky to still have a job.

This is a pet hobby horse of mine having worked for major manufacturers and in the Commonwealth welfare system.

There are currently in round figures 500,000 unemployed and 800,000 disability pensioners in Australia. Many of the DSP's would work if a job could be found. Not all these people are dole bludgers or malingering hypochondriacs. Most are genuine and in need of jobs and help.

It is only manufacturing that will provide the large numbers of no skill and low skill jobs that will employ a considerable percentage of these people.

Our governments of all political philosophies have been cowards in standing up to our overseas trading partners. Decades ago government should have identified industries that will employ these numbers and told the overseas makers "You want to sell your goods in Australia? Then welcome. Australia is open for business. No tariffs, no quotas, sell as many as you can here. There is one proviso. You will employ Australians by making or assembling your goods here."

[incisor]

This is a pet hobby horse of mine having worked for major manufacturers and in the Commonwealth welfare system.

There are currently in round figures 500,000 unemployed and 800,000 disability pensioners in Australia. Many of the DSP's would work if a job could be found. Not all these people are dole bludgers or malingering hypochondriacs. Most are genuine and in need of jobs and help.

It is only manufacturing that will provide the large numbers of no skill and low skill jobs that will employ a considerable percentage of these people.

Our governments of all political philosophies have been cowards in standing up to our overseas trading partners. Decades ago government should have identified industries that will employ these numbers and told the overseas makers "You want to sell your goods in Australia? Then welcome. Australia is open for business. No tariffs, no quotas, sell as many as you can here. There is one proviso. You will employ Australians by making or assembling your goods here."

you wasting your breath brian they are all to smart to fall for that one..

;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Alcoa is closing three plants the Gelong smelter and two rolling plants. They are not exiting Australia. The Portland smelter will remain open, but it is bad news for Geelong.

While there will be the loss of jobs in Victoria and Yennora in NSW Alcoa will continue to employ about 4,200 people in other Australian plants. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-18/aluminium-producer-alcoa-confirms-decision-to-close-point-henry/5266330 (For now)

However given that Alcoa received $40 million from the Gillard Government to subsidise the Geelong operations it does make one wonder about the benefit of corporate welfare. That same $40 million would have gone a long way to support the 1,000 retrenched Alcoa workers with unemployment benefits and retraining.

[incisor]

it was given to them to keep the plant running till feb 2014 so the gov had some chance of getting something in place to help

who was to know that there would be another 50k unemployed headed that way by then after a change of gov.

nothing to do with corp welfare, the new buzzword of the tea bag culture...

[460cixy]

Alcoa is closing three plants the Gelong smelter and two rolling plants. They are not exiting Australia. The Portland smelter will remain open, but it is bad news for Geelong.

While there will be the loss of jobs in Victoria and Yennora in NSW Alcoa will continue to employ about 4,200 people in other Australian plants. Aluminium producer Alcoa confirms decision to close Point Henry smelter, rolling mills - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-18/aluminium-producer-alcoa-confirms-decision-to-close-point-henry/5266330) (For now)

However given that Alcoa received $40 million from the Gillard Government to subsidise the Geelong operations it does make one wonder about the benefit of corporate welfare. That same $40 million would have gone a long way to support the 1,000 retrenched Alcoa workers with unemployment benefits and retraining.


So you are saying using public money to prop up these company's is a wast of money ? Well Ile be blown some common sense.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Sorry Inc, it wasn't corporate welfare, it was obviously political welfare to keep the announcement quiet till a little after the election.

[incisor]

Sorry Inc, it wasn't corporate welfare, it was obviously political welfare to keep the announcement quiet till a little after the election.

that may be so and i didn't say it wasn't.

but it was well publicised at the time...

[Bigbjorn]

you wasting your breath brian they are all to smart to fall for that one..

;)

I call it exporting our unemployment. I would rather see unemployment in Asia and Europe than here.

[Roverlord off road spares]

It'll be a major blow to Geelong, having Ford going, now Alcoa Where afe the young people going to go for work, to Melbourne? where they're are already people looking for employment.
May be it's time to stop immigration and say sorry we are full, there is no work in Australia anymore?
What would be the better option? Public tax payer money used to prop up these large employing businesses, who will always want had outs , but give people a job and some self respect and honour?

Or
Not give them a hand out and instead spend the money supporting those retrenched and can't get a job, and have low self esteem and honour.

Now with record low interest rates, will we start seeing bank foreclosures in the future as people cannot meet mortgage repayments.
It's not a good time in Australia at the moment, I think there is going to be hard times ahead for the work force, for those that still have jobs.
Where once you started to work for a company and retired at an old age, now its uncertian whether you'll have a job tomorrow.:(

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes, it's not looking to healthy in Victoria at the moment.

I was made redundant back in May. Centrelink are still not paying me. They have made a couple of monumental stuff ups.

First, they sent me a nasty letter and canceled my newstart (which I hadn't been paid) and could not explain why. When pressed, it was suggested it may have been a computer glitch.

Then, some months later, they accused me of having a hidden bank account because of the amount of savings I told them I had in a phone interview. It looked as if the fellow who input the data had a keyboard that suffered from key bounce on the numbers. There was a double digit in there.

The poor souls in Centrelink are clearly suffering from overwork.

Yep, things are looking dire out there. Oh, well. I think I'll have a treat tonight to cheer me up. I'll put a dash of soy sauce on my bowl of rice for dinner tonight.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Maybe its time for some major infrustructure projects a la snowy mountains project. Give some of the factory workers a chance to transfer skills to other industries, but of course they'll import the steel from china and the workers on 457.

[Mick_Marsh]

Maybe its time for some major infrustructure projects a la snowy mountains project. Give some of the factory workers a chance to transfer skills to other industries, but of course they'll import the steel from china and the workers on 457.
Can't do it.
Because of the world bank, IMF and other international pressures, projects like that must be open to private enerprise. Of course, private enterprise won't do it because they don't see short term returns.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Private industry is O.K. by me, they have built a number of infrastructure projects around the country, the gateway bridge in Qld, Clem7, CrossCity tunnel, M2., M7, Land Cove Tunnel and some of them go broke.

But at least they give some hundreds or thousands of workers a job.

Isn't it time for a high speed freight rail link between Melbourne and Brisbane and a high speed passenger rail system between Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney and Brisbane. Then it can start going West to Adelaide and Perth. Would employ thousands over decades.

The good thing is that the actual planting of the infrustructure in Aussie soil cant be sent overseas, even if the carriages etc have to be built somewhere else.

[CraigE]

Honestly I think it is about time our federal govt made conditions that these companies must have so much processing in Australia as part of their mining licence agreements, if they cannot fulfill these obligations then take their licences and give to a company that can do so. Very easy really.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Honestly I think it is about time our federal govt made conditions that these companies must have so much processing in Australia as part of their mining licence agreements, if they cannot fulfill these obligations then take their licences and give to a company that can do so. Very easy really.Then we'd have to deal with the WTO because that requirement is a breach of WTO rules.

[Mick_Marsh]

How many years have they been talking about the high speed rail link?
Private industry don't see any money in it.
Governments say it's private industry's responsibility to build such a thing.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

And how long has it taken to get a dual carriageway on the Hume Highway from Melbourne to Sydney. When I first got my licence in the 1970s it was said that our fuel excise could pay for it in a single year. It finally happened in 2013. Now talk about the Western Highway in Victoria, surely another one due for dual carriageway.

I don't really care what infrastructure be it rail or road, but surely something that will be of benefit to the community and will employ people in Australia instead of having them on the dole has to be better.

[4runnernomore]

Fix Australia's water issue once and for all with the pipeline from the Ord river that keeps rearing its head every couple of years?.just saying, lots of wok for years to come for all.

[BMKal]

Honestly I think it is about time our federal govt made conditions that these companies must have so much processing in Australia as part of their mining licence agreements, if they cannot fulfill these obligations then take their licences and give to a company that can do so. Very easy really.

Unfortunately - this won't work. Has been tried before many times and failed. Rember the HBI plant in Hedland, or the Copper smelter at Tennant Creek (Peko), and countless others. The cost to build the infrastructure let alone the cost to operate it will always kill off any project like this - and much of the existing infrastructure in Australia is well outdated.

We've missed the boat (by many years). Should have built a railway across the top of Australia back in the 60's when it was proposed - iron ore in one direction and coal on the return leg, with large steel mills at each end.

What gets me is the latest news that the major gas suppliers are now applying for a 20% increase in wholesale gas price to the domestic market - based on the fact that they can sell "OUR" gas to the Japs for a higher price since the Japs have shut down their nuclear power stations. Surely it wouldn't be too hard for the guvmint to insist that a condition of extracting and selling Australian gas (it does belong to the Australian people you know) - is that you can sell it for whatever price you like overseas, but you will sell to the domestic market at a pre-determined price.

If you think that the latest round of job losses is bad - just wait until you see the number of businesses will shut up shop when they have to cop a 20% increase in their energy costs.

Anyone know what tipped Rio Tinto's decision to shut down the aluminium refinery at Gove over the edge ............. ;)

Of course the proposed increase will only bring up NSW gas price to what is already being paid in Queensland (around $5 - $6 per gigajoule) - while WA is already paying well in excess of that (more than $8 per gigajoule). Governments of all persuasions need to grow some balls and tell these companies that, unless they are prepared to cater for the Australian domestic market FIRST at a reasonable price - they can bugger off and find their gas elsewhere. They WILL still trade with us even if forced into such an arrangement - simply because the gas is available here. If they could find similar supplies elsewhere - they would already be doing it. ;)

[BMKal]

Fix Australia's water issue once and for all with the pipeline from the Ord river that keeps rearing its head every couple of years?.just saying, lots of wok for years to come for all.

Again - a lack of vision by successive guvmints. :censored:

There's already a number of pipelines built to transport gas from north to south - the technology has been available for many years to transport both gas and water in the same pipe - but there's not enough votes in it.

[JDNSW]

The ABC news last night showed two graphs that clearly showed why the Pt Henry smelter and the Sydney plant have closed.

The first showed the price of aluminium over the last few years - it has halved, and is still falling.

The second showed why this has happened. A graph of aluminium production over the same period by country. All except one has remained pretty much static, just a few ups and downs. But China production has shown a massive, continuing, increase. (Allegedly to soak up electricity from all the new power stations until other users catch up. Consider it as a way of storing electricity!)

But the Pt Henry smelter has had the writing on the wall for a number of years due to rising power prices. It is only possible to smelt aluminium where you have cheap power. Even if you have your own power station and coal mine (as Alcoa does at Anglesea), eventually it becomes obvious that you are better off selling the power on the open market than wasting it making aluminium, especially if you can buy the aluminium a lot cheaper from somewhere that does have cheap power.

The aluminium industry was always going to be an inevitable casualty of the carbon tax and renewable quotas in the Australian context.


John

[460cixy]

So John its not Tony's fault? It can't be so

[incisor]

So John its not Tony's fault? It can't be so

havent anyone say that it is have we?

[Mick_Marsh]

Now talk about the Western Highway in Victoria, surely another one due for dual carriageway.
They already are. Bit by bit. Unfortunately it doesn't create a lot of jobs.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

They already are. Bit by bit. Unfortunately it doesn't create a lot of jobs.If they seriously concentrated on it it could give several thousand jobs for a few years. There has to be hundreds of workers on the widening of the M5 and thats only 24km and effectively building 2 lanes.

A dozen projects around vctoria and South Australia and you've got a few thousand jobs.

If they go to rail, there's all the steel trackwork work for fetlers and bridge construction. Civil engineering of the formation and manufacturing components for the signalling equipment which could (in the fantasy of my mind) go to an Australian electrical component manufacturer that previously made auto parts.

[frantic]

Unfortunately - this won't work. Has been tried before many times and failed. Rember the HBI plant in Hedland, or the Copper smelter at Tennant Creek (Peko), and countless others. The cost to build the infrastructure let alone the cost to operate it will always kill off any project like this - and much of the existing infrastructure in Australia is well outdated.

We've missed the boat (by many years). Should have built a railway across the top of Australia back in the 60's when it was proposed - iron ore in one direction and coal on the return leg, with large steel mills at each end.

What gets me is the latest news that the major gas suppliers are now applying for a 20% increase in wholesale gas price to the domestic market - based on the fact that they can sell "OUR" gas to the Japs for a higher price since the Japs have shut down their nuclear power stations. Surely it wouldn't be too hard for the guvmint to insist that a condition of extracting and selling Australian gas (it does belong to the Australian people you know) - is that you can sell it for whatever price you like overseas, but you will sell to the domestic market at a pre-determined price.

If you think that the latest round of job losses is bad - just wait until you see the number of businesses will shut up shop when they have to cop a 20% increase in their energy costs.

Anyone know what tipped Rio Tinto's decision to shut down the aluminium refinery at Gove over the edge ............. ;)

Of course the proposed increase will only bring up NSW gas price to what is already being paid in Queensland (around $5 - $6 per gigajoule) - while WA is already paying well in excess of that (more than $8 per gigajoule). Governments of all persuasions need to grow some balls and tell these companies that, unless they are prepared to cater for the Australian domestic market FIRST at a reasonable price - they can bugger off and find their gas elsewhere. They WILL still trade with us even if forced into such an arrangement - simply because the gas is available here. If they could find similar supplies elsewhere - they would already be doing it. ;)

The brickette plant was an avg design built by the cheapest contractor and closed by OHS issues when it killed a worker. BHP actually had a site in WA for a real steel plant as they expected the govt to legislate a certain level of ore be processed to slab here. The gov't never did it. This still could create massive employment here and benefit the global environment at the same time.
As to breaching trade rules :twisted: there are numerous ways to implement a policy that other gov'ts already use. Go tell us the cost of getting raw materials out of China? Certain raw rare materials they will not allow to export at all!
Instead we are heading towards "the recession we did not need to have" . With other world economies picking up we are being forced down.

[Mick_Marsh]

They're extending the Ballarat bypass to Beaufort. Big project over a long time. It will keep those hundred or so workers in employment for a few years.

[460cixy]

havent anyone say that it is have we?


Cops the blame for everything else I think its only fair

[BMKal]

The brickette plant was an avg design built by the cheapest contractor and closed by OHS issues when it killed a worker. BHP actually had a site in WA for a real steel plant as they expected the govt to legislate a certain level of ore be processed to slab here. The gov't never did it. This still could create massive employment here and benefit the global environment at the same time.
As to breaching trade rules :twisted: there are numerous ways to implement a policy that other gov'ts already use. Go tell us the cost of getting raw materials out of China? Certain raw rare materials they will not allow to export at all!
Instead we are heading towards "the recession we did not need to have" . With other world economies picking up we are being forced down.

Yes - agree that the HBI was poorly designed and constructed. I actually knew the man who was killed in that explosion. He was a maintenance contractor working for Simon Engineering (which went on to become Abi Group, Bilfinger Berger and now Lend Lease) - I worked for the same group of companies at the time. Two others were also seriously injured in the blast - it was very fortunate that there were not more fatalities on that occasion.

However, I don't believe that it was OHS issues that resulted in the eventual decision to scrap the plant. The process never worked properly from the start - BHP spent many millions in trying to modify the plant to correct both process design and OH&S issues. In the end, the plant was simply too expensive to operate - and the world steel market changed at the same time with new steelworks coming on line in Asia which could accept "fines" iron ore.

At the time the HBI was built, the main demand of the Asian steel mills was for "lump" iron ore (usually between 12mm and 32mm). Very few steel mills could accept iron ore "fines" (less than 12mm) as it would simply disappear "up the spout" if you introduced it directly into a blast furnace. In those days, it was seen as "value adding" if you could convert your "fines" into a "lump" product - hence the HBI plant (there was one in South America somewhere too) and the "pig iron" foundry at Wundowie in WA amongst others.

The Korean steelmakers and subsequently the Chinese have since developed electric arc steel mills with the ability to accept an iron ore "fines" feed without the need for an intermediate process to convert the fines to a lump feed - and now iron ore "fines" brings the same price as the previously more rewarding "lump", to the point that most of the newer iron ore mines either produce both a "lump" and a "fines" product, or in many cases, "fines" only. It is actually cheaper for the miners in most cases to simply crush all of the ore to a "fines" specification rather than having to separate lump and fines by screening, and then have dual materials handling circuits to cater for both products.

All of the iron ore projects that I have been working with for the past few years produce "fines" only - and a couple of major new projects / prospects that I'm working on now are also targeting "fines" production only. I wish that there were more new projects targeting lump production, as it would make my job much easier (and the plants I design would be simpler and cheaper) - but the downstream processes and costs involved mean that this is no longer the case.

In this environment, a large and very expensive process like the HBI at Port Hedland was never going to be viable. The directors of BHP at the time made a very bad decision - and it cost many of them their jobs. It cost the shareholders of BHP (you and I through our Super funds etc) a hell of a lot more. ;)

As you can probably tell - I'm no fan of the senior management of BHP and other large companies in the mining game.

[incisor]

Cops the blame for everything else I think its only fair

diddums....