Transmission removal, flexplate repair

[redandy3575]

Hi all

Just an update with the trany removal. I'm up to the point of removing the 8 bolts around the bell housing, is there a particular method anyone uses to undo the top bolts with limited access? I seem to have a little trouble getting a ratchet or spanner in there to undo it. Has anyone got any easy suggestions ?

[Scouse]

On the older V8s, I always remove the engine mounts. Then the engine drops down 3-4cm & makes access all that better.


A looong 3/8" extension with wobble drive/flex joint is very useful too.

[redandy3575]

Well i droped the trany as low as i could go, then using a an extender managed to loosen the bolts. What a mission though, i had rounded one of them so no doubt will have to replace the whole set.

[Keithy P38]

Getting the transmission back on (and lined up correctly) will be more fun than removal!

Good luck mate (he he)

Keithy

[redandy3575]

Getting the transmission back on (and lined up correctly) will be more fun than removal!

Good luck mate (he he)

Keithy

Any suggestions????

[Keithy P38]

Be gentle!

[81stubee]

As already said
- Engine Mounts out
- Drop Rear Cross member (usually require a pry bar and some levering)
- Secure Rear Cross member with the bolts using the lower holes.
- Hex Head Sockets, 150mm 1/2" Extension, 450mm Extension, 300mm Extension (I think). From the Transmission End.
- Support Transmission (I used a drag chain)
- Remove Engine (up and out, easy :D)

Aligning the Motor and gearbox back up was a (really really diffcult and a pain). You can get it to about 10mm gap, then lever the TC Spigot in from the 35mm hole in the bottom. Then gradually tighten the bolts. With a bit of jiggling from the motor while it is still suspended it should slide into postion. Then you can do up all the Beellhousing bolts.

ENSURE YOU DO UP THE FLEXPLATE TO TC BOLTS TO THE CORRECT SPEC OF 65nm, NOT 40nm as listed in the manual. There was a TSB to cover this. Ask me how i know :blush:

I've done this three times in 4 years. It might be worthwhile getting the Ringgear balanced while you can. My engine builder never did this, and it caused no end of dramas.

[redandy3575]

An update. Well finally after spending a few hours removing the four bolts holding the flexplate onto the torque converter, the transmission is finally removed. As suspected, the flexplate is cactus.

[davidsonsm]

Jeese thats incredible. Is that normal wear and tear? Sure doesnt look it.

[redandy3575]

Oh that's not all. The flywheel crank sensor pins ( where the sensor gets it's reading from is Brocken in a small section next to on of the torque converter bolt holes. I found the Brocken piece under the torque converter. Will post more pics shortly.

Next question is, does anyone know of a good reputable parts supplier for a complete flywheel in the Melbourne area?? I've already tried British car components with no luck.

[Scouse]

Jeese thats incredible. Is that normal wear and tear? Sure doesnt look it.Unfortunately, it's alarmingly common.


Make sure the locating dowels are in place before refitting the gearbox. If it's slightly out of alignment, it's not going to help.
Others who have had this problem have mentioned checking the nose on the torque convertor to make sure it engages into the flexplate properly.

[redandy3575]

Unfortunately, it's alarmingly common.


Make sure the locating dowels are in place before refitting the gearbox. If it's slightly out of alignment, it's not going to help.
Others who have had this problem have mentioned checking the nose on the torque convertor to make sure it engages into the flexplate properly.

Are talking about the two fixed dowels on the two side of the engine side?

[81stubee]

Sent you a PM, with the people i've found most helpful.

See this link which should help you out, as i've done exactly the same thing. Probably best to skip straight through to page 3 or 4 as thats when i finally started getting things right.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/146913-engine-balancing-broken-flexplate.html

Depending on how the gearbox is, it might be worth considering doing the TC up as well, as the vibrations might have chewed up the Spigot Aligner and Nose on the TC.

Also, make sure you get a genuine flex plate, plus, remember that the spigot aligner have different spacers between 4.0 and 4.6 engines. I was lucky enough to get mine machined out to match the new TC Spigot by the TC Builder.

[redandy3575]

Getting the Torque converter out, what's involved with that? Does it just slide out? Or is there a certain procedure?

[81stubee]

TC will just slide out. But be careful as the mongrel is heavy!!

- It will be full of oil, so as soon as you can roll it forwards as the oil will pour out the back.
- Try to pull it straight off so as not to damage any seals.

[redandy3575]

Taken the torque converter out and took it to TCE engineering as recommended by stu ( thanks mate ) to get it reconditioned. Bought a secondhand flywheel, as new ones are next to impossible to get. The flywheel ended up at the Speedwork to give it a check for cracks and balance etc.

Just waiting now for a phone call to let me know it's finished. The TC nose is a bit worn, and will be machined, though I don't know how the crank side will be done without removing the whole crankshaft.

[81stubee]

The spigot aligner comes off the back of the crankshaft via the 6 Allen key bolts. Take that down with the TC and get them to match the nose and spigot up. That way you can be 100% that the two match up perfectly.

[redandy3575]

The spigot aligner comes off the back of the crankshaft via the 6 Allen key bolts. Take that down with the TC and get them to match the nose and spigot up. That way you can be 100% that the two match up perfectly.

Ok i see that. Now ive tried to take off the flywheel however the starter motor seems to prevent me from doing that. Im trying to take the starter off with the bottom bolt removing easily, though tight it comes off. The top bolt however is a bit of a nightmare and hard to get to, and i don't know what Land Rover were thinking, but why they decided to use Allan key bolts to hold the starter motor is beyond me when just about every other car manufacturer uses proper easy to remove socket bolts. Not to mention the fact that these bolts are unesessarily over tightened causing them to easily round out, a rather silly design.

Question is, is there any other way or trick to removing the flywheel without needing to remove the starter??

[81stubee]

The ring gear should just slide off with a bit of wiggling. No need to remove the starter motor. On mine i just pull the motor all in one piece, and sit it on a timber pallet. Then unbolt the old flexplate (keeping note of the spacer arrangement), then slide the ring gear off the spigot aligner, and remove the spigot aligner if necessary.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Flywheel"? Are you referring to the Flexplate?

Order of Components
Crankshaft, Spigot Aligner (held to crankshaft by 6 Allenkey bolts), Ringgear, Spacer, Flexplate, Spacer (all sandwiched to the spigol aligner by x4 bolts).

I would never use a secondhand flex plate, as buying a new one should be easy. Ring gear might be hard to get.

[redandy3575]

The ring gear should just slide off with a bit of wiggling. No need to remove the starter motor. On mine i just pull the motor all in one piece, and sit it on a timber pallet. Then unbolt the old flexplate (keeping note of the spacer arrangement), then slide the ring gear off the spigot aligner, and remove the spigot aligner if necessary.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Flywheel"? Are you referring to the Flexplate?

Order of Components
Crankshaft, Spigot Aligner (held to crankshaft by 6 Allenkey bolts), Ringgear, Spacer, Flexplate, Spacer (all sandwiched to the spigol aligner by x4 bolts).

I would never use a secondhand flex plate, as buying a new one should be easy. Ring gear might be hard to get.

Ring gear is what i normally refer to as a flywheel. Its usually the term for Manual ring gear.

[Keithy P38]

Flywheel is what manual cars have, flex plates are for autos.

The clutch on a manual car engages on the flywheel to provide drive!

[redandy3575]

Well after nearly 4 months tackling this task, i'm pleased to say it's mission accomplished. And what a mission it was.

Thanks to the advice of fellow AULRO members in Tips, advice & recommended places to get the torque converter reconditioned. I look back now, if i didn't put this thread up, i reckon i would've been somewhat lost.

So, the work that was done:

- new flex plate
- replaced the TC pump seal
- second hand ring gear replaced & balanced
- second hand sprigot aligner
- replaced all 8 bell housing bolts
- new catalytic converter & y pipe
- new handbrake shoes
- TC machined and reconditioned
- transmission filter replaced


I had a few mishaps in the process of re- installing the Tranny as a bolt came loose from the transmission support plate and the tranny tipped off landed side on onto the garage floor with a thud!! Lifting it back up was almost near impossible underneath the vehicle with the limited room. Took me about 7 goes using a smaller jack and blocks of wood slowly propping the tranny high enough to slide the support plate below it again. Then slowly millimetres by millimetres the transmission worked its way onto the engine, making sure the dowles aligned and seated correctly. All 8 bolts tightned up with relative ease to the correct torque.

This morning when i turned the key and heard that V8 instantly come back to life, what a relief that was. I did notice that the engine was idling rather fast to which a quick clean of the MAF sensor quickly rectified that issue.

With the new exhaust and cat converter, the engine has more torque, and slightly more power. The flat spot is no longer there, and super smoothness has returned to the torque converter.

All in all, i'm wrapped with it so far, and wiil take it for a longer test drive on Thursday.

Sorry for not posting up too many pictures, as i was so focused in getting this job completed.

So thanks again for everyones help and hope to return the favour if anyone else is game enough to tackle this job.

[wayneg]

Well done, a great result.

[TheTree]

Mate

Well done, persistence pays off, lets hope the beastie rewards you :p

Steve

[redandy3575]

Mate

Well done, persistence pays off, lets hope the beastie rewards you :p

Steve

Already had an invite to drive someone up to the snow. In style off course!!!:D

[FANTOM P38]

Well done Andy,
So was there anything in particular that caused the failure or just wear & tear? What were the symptoms? It might help someone else diagnose if similar thing happens!

[redandy3575]

Well done Andy,
So was there anything in particular that caused the failure or just wear & tear? What were the symptoms? It might help someone else diagnose if similar thing happens!

It seems that a chain of events occurred that caused the failure. It all started with the flexplate as metal fatigue was working its way around the crank bolts. Eventually with the excess movement of the Brocken flexplate causing torque converter to move slightly forward causing the flexplate to TC bolts to catch onto the timing spikes in front of the ring gear from that movement causing a small section of that spike to tear away and eventually strike the crank position sensor. With the CPS now bent, the ignition system was no longer getting a stable timing signal causing the engine to stop. A replacement CPS wouldn't of helped as the Brocken metal piece was still in there, which would've damaged the new CPS again.

When the tranny was pulled back, the Brocken section of the timing spikes was found mangled and squashed underneath the TC.

The flexplate did suffer from a bit of corrosion too from water ingress from those deep river crossings.

So yes in a way you could say general wear and tear, and a bit of constant strain from pulling heavy camper trailers, heavy duty 4 wheel driving on steep climbs and steep downhill in low range using engine braking which all put a fair amount of pressure onto the flexplate. Therefor a lesson there would be to take it easy and not over stress the auto in any car really.

Another thing that come to mind that over the years as the Rover V8 increase in cubes and power without any real major changes on the ZF autos, maybe a natural progression of excess stress on the tranny as the years of extra development went on in the Range Rover world, and the transmission may have been over looked. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix approach, which I dare say was common in earlier testings with a cash strapped Land Rover made do with what they had. Correct me if I'm wrong though!

[clubagreenie]

I would never use a secondhand flex plate, as buying a new one should be easy. Ring gear might be hard to get.

Given A$ list price for a V8 flex plate is over $800- and even second hand ones command $2-300 I got lucky and found one for $25-.

And landed new from the UK (Ashcrofts) are <$100-.

Also as I fitted a 4HP24 to a D2 and HD TC, the stack height of all the flex plate components (spacers etc) is slightly different to a 4HP22, about 1.5mm, enough to make a difference to the TC engagement in the pump. Found while checking and surface grinding the spacer that the spacer wasn't flat and the big steel boss mounting surface wasn't true either. Ended up milling 50thou off the boss and making a new spacer.

And yes, flywheel is manual, flexplate is auto, ringgear is fitted to both to engage the starter

[redandy3575]

Given A$ list price for a V8 flex plate is over $800- and even second hand ones command $2-300 I got lucky and found one for $25-.

And landed new from the UK (Ashcrofts) are <$100-.

Also as I fitted a 4HP24 to a D2 and HD TC, the stack height of all the flex plate components (spacers etc) is slightly different to a 4HP22, about 1.5mm, enough to make a difference to the TC engagement in the pump. Found while checking and surface grinding the spacer that the spacer wasn't flat and the big steel boss mounting surface wasn't true either. Ended up milling 50thou off the boss and making a new spacer.

And yes, flywheel is manual, flexplate is auto, ringgear is fitted to both to engage the starter

I think you might be refering to the Ring Gear at $800. Flexplate was only $57 from British car components.

I was quoted $1300 in total to have a brand new ring gear imported from the UK. My second hand one was around $90, but needed balancing.

[clubagreenie]

BCC is where I ended up getting mine cheap. But I have microcat and a direct contact to LR Parts price lists so it was done by number, and before they looked it up was told it wasn't even unpleasantly cheap. Ludicrous as it sounds and there was more than one supplier willing to charge that much.