Here we go again. Russians holding military " exercises " on the Ukranian border

[bob10]

But first, this, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine: Gunmen seize Crimea government buildings (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26364891)

[Disco_Mike]

Well, no one can say they didn't expect it. The Crimea region has always been a volatile place for power struggles.

[sashadidi]

The game continues, the Tartars and others might want a part of Crimea as well.
Its the real world there....

[bob10]

Their future does not look bright, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine in numbers - in 60 seconds (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26359957)

[Hall]

Russia has mobilised 150,000 troops and moved war planes close to Ukraine. Just a exercise of course. They have also taken control of a military and civilian air port in the Crimean. This a bit more than a exercise.
Cheers Hall

[Treads]

This is not an exercise :(


LiveLeak.com - Crimea: No science fiction, no action movie. This is how a Russian airborne invasion looks like.

[Chucaro]

Russia's upper house of parliament approved on Saturday a request from Russian President Vladimir Putin to send armed forces to Ukraine's Crimea region, which has a majority ethnic Russian population. (http://www.theage.com.au/world/russian-parliament-approves-putins-request-for-troops-in-ukraine-20140228-hvfoi.html)

Folow updates HERE (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/01/crimea-crisis-deepens-as-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates)

IMHO there is no way that the Russian's are going to give up their naval base :(

[3toes]

“The Kremlin’s deeply held view of sovereignty as an unlimited right for political regimes to do as they please inside their states is one of the cornerstones of Russian foreign policy"

“The Kremlin will never sanction a Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force”

[Chucaro]

This problem will be not an easy to resolve, the Ukraine's Crimea leader asks Putin for help (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/ukraine-crimea-leader-asks-putin-help-20143184757803489.html) and considering that Crimea is the only part of the country with a Russian ethnic majority, which has often voiced separatist aims I cannot see how they will be united again.

Another Korea? :(

[Hall]

Another Korea?
Unfortunately it might well be the first instalment. Can`t see though the NATO powers having any wish to tackle Russia. There was a lot more will to fight back in the 1950`s with Korea. Most likely a lot of sabre rattling, might even be a sanction or two put on Russia, or a strongly worded protest from the UN condeming the Russians if the do take action. Note that the Americans have announced that they will be reducing the size of there armed forces to pre WW2 numbers. So the UN is going to have to sort this out with out relying on the US to back them. Also a pre WW2 scenario, is history repeating it`s self?
Cheers Hall

[bob10]

looks like the Crimea will remain Russian. Foolish to expect the Russians would not step in. Sends a bad message to the breakaway Muslim states. Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Obama urges Putin to pull troops back (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26403996)




BBC News - What is so dangerous about Crimea? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26367786)

[ScottW]

No one wants a war to break out. Many major gas mains run through the Ukraine. Russia wants to keep selling gas to EU because htey need the $$$, EU wants to keep buying the gas as they need it for heating.

http://en.ria.ru/images/15520/63/155206369.jpg

The more likely scenario is an internal civil war between west Ukraine who want to become more Europeanised and the east who are all Russian.

[Hall]

The whole dispute has been settled. Our government has stepped up and told Russia to pull it`s head and stop being a nong. Putin will be shaking in his boots knowing that Australia has weighed in with it`s ten cents worth. :) Talk about small dog syndrome when it comes to Australia and foreign disputes.
Cheers Hall

[Chucaro]

It is a shame that Alexander Downer is busy in another job other ways he will fix Putin with his......................................

[Offender90]

One thing to consider is just who this "new government" of Ukraine comprises, and whose views it represents. I know it's been touted as the "legitimate government of Ukraine" over here but it at best represents maybe a million far right leaning Ukranians (several hundred thousand is perhaps a more realistic figure), in a country of 50+ million.

The situation is polarising the citizens of Ukraine into pro-Moscow and anti-Moscow camps, which is unfortunate in my view as the vast majority of the population are sitting on the fence. Unfortunate in that Ukraine is in debt to the tune of $35 billion, and the $15 billion in debt relief that Russia was "providing" (or buying influence - if we want to call it for what it is), is a lot more money and comes with a lot fewer strings than what IMF is likely to offer in the future. Ultimately, if tensions continue (which I think is likely), the majority of catholic Ukranians will feel they have little choice but to join the anti-Moscow camp, and will pay a price for it (both in the ensuing conflict with Russia and when IMF extract their usual pound of flesh from what remains of Ukraine once Russia annexes the bits it feels it has a claim to).

Just my $0.02 worth.

[incisor]

why not just give crimea back to the russians...

let greater ukraine move onward and go with europe, so russia can buy it back for next to nothing in a few years legitimately..

cant see europe stirring the pot too much, they need that gas...

[Chucaro]

perhaps China is observing these developments with interest and depending the outcome they will do the same as Russia and start claiming some territories in their " shopping list"

Madness :(

[Chucaro]

This have to be a joke:

TONY Abbott has cancelled a visit to Australia by Vladimir Putin’s chief national security adviser and former KGB colleague as Western allies vowed to punish Moscow over its military intervention in Ukraine’s Crimean region.


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[olbod]

Unfortunately it might well be the first instalment. Can`t see though the NATO powers having any wish to tackle Russia. There was a lot more will to fight back in the 1950`s with Korea. Most likely a lot of sabre rattling, might even be a sanction or two put on Russia, or a strongly worded protest from the UN condeming the Russians if the do take action. Note that the Americans have announced that they will be reducing the size of there armed forces to pre WW2 numbers. So the UN is going to have to sort this out with out relying on the US to back them. Also a pre WW2 scenario, is history repeating it`s self?
Cheers Hall


Mate, history will always repeat itself.
Its the only experience they have to draw on.

PS: If the buggers joined up and became a member of the EU, I dont see how that would be such a terrible thing for the ruskies ?
Nothing would change as far as bases are concerned it just means that trade and money would be expanded both ways.
But those dickheads in eastern europe are weird so bring on a good TV war.

Well anyway.

[olbod]

This have to be a joke:

TONY Abbott has cancelled a visit to Australia by Vladimir Putin’s chief national security adviser and former KGB colleague as Western allies vowed to punish Moscow over its military intervention in Ukraine’s Crimean region.


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot, eh.
If Tony is not careful the ruskies will become indonesia's chief anti-Australian advisers.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Here is an interesting perspective of the Americans complicit involvment in all of this.

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/e/0/ee0dcdcb2482f64a/cswdcc70.mp3?c_id=6882526&expiration=1393894174&hwt=ed2858a75b2a619c8424f77d1fda8e84

IMO Dan Carlin's free podcast is an excellant source for intelligent, free thinking political commentary. Mostly from the American side of things but often relevant to the world. Highly recommended.

[olbod]

History repeating itself and learning from experience gives us the opportunity to think it through and then make the same mistakes by using different methods.
Its just depends on how many people you can afford to have die before we get back to where we were.

[sashadidi]

Here is an interesting perspective of the Americans complicit involvment in all of this.

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/e/e/0/ee0dcdcb2482f64a/cswdcc70.mp3?c_id=6882526&expiration=1393894174&hwt=ed2858a75b2a619c8424f77d1fda8e84

IMO Dan Carlin's free podcast is an excellant source for intelligent, free thinking political commentary. Mostly from the American side of things but often relevant to the world. Highly recommended.
Thanks for that , interesting
for another view among many : Security | In Moscow's Shadows (http://inmoscowsshadows.wordpress.com/category/security/)

I have a russian wife and family with relatives in the eastern Ukraine, no law and order at present there , lots of guns on the street where they are (both sides) average Joe over there just keeps getting punished.....
They deserve better but not likely to get it.

[Pickles2]

This have to be a joke:

TONY Abbott has cancelled a visit to Australia by Vladimir Putin’s chief national security adviser and former KGB colleague as Western allies vowed to punish Moscow over its military intervention in Ukraine’s Crimean region.


:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:
Hello Chuc, You & I are invariably "on the oppposit sides of the fence",...but not this time,...agree 100%
Although I'm a big fan of Tony, this is totally ridiculous, it would've been a GOLDEN opportunity to put our views across.
Pickles.

[Chucaro]

Hello Chuc, You & I are invariably "on the oppposit sides of the fence",...but not this time,...agree 100%
Although I'm a big fan of Tony, this is totally ridiculous, it would've been a GOLDEN opportunity to put our views across.
Pickles.

Hi Pickles, if the ALP was in power my reaction will be the same.
What was the reaction of Australia when USA invaded Grenada?
What was the reaction of Australia when USA invaded Panama?
The problem with Ukrainian is very complex for us to have a well informed opinion but there is not question that the country is well divided and were the Russian are they have 90% support by the population.
It is hard to call IMHO :(

[bob10]

Does Russia have a case? An article from the BBC. Two sides to each story I guess. As for the Australian PM lecturing Russia, I suggest that is for domestic consumption. Any one who thinks Australia has influence over Russia is deluding themselves. To get an idea of Putins mind set, remember, Kievan Rus [ Ukraine] was where, 1,000 years ago, the Russian State, and Russian Orthodox faith, began. Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Does Russia have a case? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26415508)


What next ?
BBC News - Ukraine crisis: What next for both sides? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26407604)

[Chucaro]

I do not like this :(

Ukraine crisis: Live updates after Russian soldier fires first shots in Crimea as surrender deadline passes (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-crisis-live-updates-after-3204804)

[ATH]

I see in todays West Australian the idiot KRUDD has dashed off to Russia to see if he can assist. Just another little self promotion jaunt for him at our expence as he tries to push for the top UN job.
It would be nice to think most will see it for what it is but I'm afraid he'll be able to pull the wool over the eyes of those that matter just like he did with Oz voters.
AlanH.

[incisor]

I see in todays West Australian the idiot KRUDD has dashed off to Russia to see if he can assist. Just another little self promotion jaunt for him at our expence as he tries to push for the top UN job.
It would be nice to think most will see it for what it is but I'm afraid he'll be able to pull the wool over the eyes of those that matter just like he did with Oz voters.
AlanH.

saw something about this on the news this morning

his trip was planned ages ago and has to do with the education related job he has now... nothing to do with the current ruckus and the current gov were made aware of his plans when he arranged them and were approved some time ago.

i cant stand him either but a fair shake is a fair shake...

[manchild21000]

As one that served with Russian soldiers and had a fair view into the Russian mentality all I can say that they don't care about anyone else . They only act in the interest of the motherland and no one else . They are not afraid or intimidated easily if at all . Anyone that stands in the way of Russian national interest is asking for it .

[Chucaro]

As one that served with Russian soldiers and had a fair view into the Russian mentality all I can say that they don't care about anyone else . They only act in the interest of the motherland and no one else . They are not afraid or intimidated easily if at all . Anyone that stands in the way of Russian national interest is asking for it .

As a matter of curiosity, are the Russian arm forces personnel well paid or have a reasonable standard of living?
Are they moral high?
Thanks

[manchild21000]

I can only speak of 20 years ago . They were underpaid but loyal and very disciplined , also very proud soldiers. Fighting spirit and moral is very high . Cant speak of the ordinary soldiers though , this guys were special forces .

[Orkney 90]

I miss the old CCCP...

[85 county]

As a matter of curiosity, are the Russian arm forces personnel well paid or have a reasonable standard of living?
Are they moral high?
Thanks


NO

There is conscription but everyone seems to get out of it, unless you are really stupid or dumb.

there is an organization in Russia Mother of solders
http://womensenews.org/story/commentary/010321/mothers-russian-soldiers-fight-their-sons (http://womensenews.org/story/commentary/010321/mothers-russian-soldiers-fight-their-sons)

There was a lot of this on local news while I was there. they are quite a force in there own right

The Russian army is poorly paid. But with special troops being engaged with extra private duties they do quite well.

Moral has risen lately with the reemergence of Russian patriotism within the armed services. Mainly because they have been re equipped after the big fire sale of the 90s and early 2000. Also do not forget that it was Patriotic day only two weeks ago. This has a great moral stirring of the general population. Flags on every car as well as every ex or current solder getting ****ed in public parks beating each other up and any one else they like with impunity. i remember seeing a ****ed solder walk onto a high way when he got hit by a car. The two local policemen kicked the daylights out of the driver because it was patriotic day.

Having said all that the depravities and hazing that the Russian soldier has to endure makes then hard nuts. But a bit more dependant on there officers than say the ADF. Russian technology is not bad either, so do not be fooled by that. There small arms are a step up on ADF as well.
The ground or the Crimea as history will tell us is not the easiest to attack on. history, Greeks Romans Russians Turks Russians Turks Russians ( French English) Nazis then Russians again, independence and now Russians again.

The Tartars are the descendants of Gegas Kans bunch. The Russian hate them with a passion. for selling Russians into slavery.
I was warned by my neighbor that another neighbor was a tarter and that i should be carful and never look her in the eye because all tartars have an evil eye, worse do not let her look at my son as he would surly get sick and die. The couple who told me this were in there mid 20s she was a lawyer and he was in IT, well educated yuppies

So in short. The ruskies would be no easy pushover, remember they walked over the Georgenes but has real problems when there 6000 man column was held up by 500 Georgen solders rushed back from Iran who were American equipped and trained. so its a hard call

The emerging middle class in Russia, will not like it at all though they will keep there mouths shut.

All my expat friends have sent emails and face book comments that are positive towards Putin actions. they have to all expats coms are monitored. silence is not an option either if thay wish to keep there visas

[85 county]

I can only speak of 20 years ago . They were underpaid but loyal and very disciplined , also very proud soldiers. Fighting spirit and moral is very high . Cant speak of the ordinary soldiers though , this guys were special forces .

look at the boots. laces be carfule, jackboots = minimal training low moral possable only issued with 5 rounds etc etc

[Offender90]

In a military showdown, there would be no contest between Russian & Ukrainian militaries. The would be very little contest between Russian and just about any European country's military forces for that matter. The US (when not engaged elsewhere) and NATO are it's only real rivals/potential betters in a conventional war... But that's all academic. It will never come to a conventional all out war between those two... Especially now, and especially over Ukraine. If the Russians decide to intervene further in Ukraine, the US and its Western allies have little more than rhetoric as intervention options. The options are: Economic sanctions, exclusion from world "trade" bodies such as WTO & G8, as well as asset freezing of wealthy individuals connected to power in Moscow. None are real options for various reasons. Most European G8 members have little appetite for tussling with Russia. - as well as being dependant on Russian gas, their economic fates are too intertwined with that of Russia. (Germany has already started it would oppose moves to kick it out of G8, England has leaked it would oppose economic sanctions against both Russia or wealthy individuals within it - a photo of an internal memo "accidentally" surfaced yesterday etc). Such decisions have to be made unanimously. Lastly, asset freezes by the US or another country would not be practical as there has been a lot of foreign investment in Russia over the past 20 years... And Russia just passed a law making it possible for them to sieze foreign assets in proportion to those siezed overseas (no doubt a shot across the bow so to speak). What is likely to happen in case of military intervention by Russians is limited economic sanctions to appease the voting public that "something" is being done. They will not be enforced in practice as Russia primarily exports resources that are needed by western economies (especially at this take time). What interests me more is what is happening in Venezuela at the moment, which doesn't seem to be getting much coverage, but is certainly significant in terms of what the us is doing.

[sashadidi]

I can only speak of 20 years ago . They were underpaid but loyal and very disciplined , also very proud soldiers. Fighting spirit and moral is very high . Cant speak of the ordinary soldiers though , this guys were special forces .

Definelty a difference between conscripts and contract soldiers as 85 county says.
Just like any army things vary a lot , read this book by a conscript soldier in Chechnya, might open your eyes a bit
English version: One Soldiers War in Chechnya: Arkady Babchenko: 9781846270406: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/One-Soldiers-Chechnya-Arkady-Babchenko/dp/1846270405)
My wifes relative was on the paratroops, hard man but remember , hard men get killed just like ordinary people

[bob10]

I'm not convinced the Russian soldiers in Crimea are 'special forces.' Russia had about 16,000 troops stationed there, you don't need special forces to do what they are doing at the moment. Letting the Ukranians think that may be beneficial. [ although you would think the Ukranian Army would have a fair idea] Putin may have his pit bulls on the border, ready. Which indicates to me that this has been mostly bluff. I notice Putin has returned the 150,000 troops 'exercising' on the border back to barracks. Now is the time for discussion, hopefully. I would not be surprised to see a compromise reached. Bob

[85 county]

I'm not convinced the Russian soldiers in Crimea are 'special forces.' Russia had about 16,000 troops stationed there, you don't need special forces to do what they are doing at the moment. Letting the Ukranians think that may be beneficial. [ although you would think the Ukranian Army would have a fair idea] Putin may have his pit bulls on the border, ready. Which indicates to me that this has been mostly bluff. I notice Putin has returned the 150,000 troops 'exercising' on the border back to barracks. Now is the time for discussion, hopefully. I would not be surprised to see a compromise reached. Bob

ok maybe we are missuing the word specal forces

the sparsnear are russias elete. and you will not see many photos of them. there good regulur well trained profestional hard nut guys, have laced boots AK72s plus a range of inherantly silent 30 odd caliber GPs and sinipers rifles. one of the photos of the auarmed stand off, showed a russin solder with a 72, the othere with a silenced rifle ( not suppresed).
i guess we are talking about the soldurs who have been brought into the crimeia, but then with the way thing have been in russia, putin is no fool, and this would have been planed out for some time. that the garason troops are not donkies

Historically Russia has coveted the Crimea they need worm water ports. they are there to stay

[bob10]

ok maybe we are missuing the word specal forces


Historically Russia has coveted the Crimea they need worm water ports. they are there to stay


No doubt about that. I think another irritant to Russia is that many Ukranians fought for Hitler, most in the 14TH Waffen Grenadier Guards Division of the SS [ 1st Ukranian Army.] They were decimated in the fight against the Russians at Brody . The fact that at least half the population hates the Russians, makes me think a divided Ukraine is the only peaceful answer. If not, Ukraine could be a festering sore in Russias backside, a la Chechnya. And Chechnyan and Ukraine separatist fighters in an alliance? It would keep those conscripts busy. Bob


Ukraine divided over WWII legacy (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html)

[Pickles2]

No doubt about that. I think another irritant to Russia is that many Ukranians fought for Hitler, most in the 14TH Waffen Grenadier Guards Division of the SS [ 1st Ukranian Army.] They were decimated in the fight against the Russians at Brody . The fact that at least half the population hates the Russians, makes me think a divided Ukraine is the only peaceful answer. If not, Ukraine could be a festering sore in Russias backside, a la Chechnya. And Chechnyan and Ukraine separatist fighters in an alliance? It would keep those conscripts busy. Bob


Ukraine divided over WWII legacy (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html)
Very good "specific" information there Bob.
I've read quite a bit about the "SS"/"Waffen SS" myself, but my memory's certainly not good enough to remember specific stuff like that.
Thanks, Pickles.

[85 county]

No doubt about that. I think another irritant to Russia is that many Ukranians fought for Hitler, most in the 14TH Waffen Grenadier Guards Division of the SS [ 1st Ukranian Army.] They were decimated in the fight against the Russians at Brody . The fact that at least half the population hates the Russians, makes me think a divided Ukraine is the only peaceful answer. If not, Ukraine could be a festering sore in Russias backside, a la Chechnya. And Chechnyan and Ukraine separatist fighters in an alliance? It would keep those conscripts busy. Bob


Ukraine divided over WWII legacy (http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html)

Very much so. The mention of Nazi in Russia can get you into jail really quick, I know and ended up being involved with an aussie who posted on expat.ru, that Putin was like Hitler. He was arrested beaten up etc and was off to jail. i got him deported but it took 3 weeks. Could have done it in a day if the dumb idiot just apologized and groveled a bit.

But then you can not really blame the Ukrainians if you know there history. Taken over by the poles. got help from the tartars to get rid of them, then got massacred by the poles. Then the Russians invaded. Were gone after WW1, Rubbintoff Molotov ( spelling) pact saw them invaded by the Russians again. After all that the Nazis were viewed as liberators. the invaded again by the Russians. abandoned by the west ver the Potsdam declaration. mass executions and deportations by the soviets with about 3 million ethnic Russians settled to breed out the natives ( a bit like a English Scotland thing). then they get independence again. Russia pushes more Russians into the Ukraine. Ukraine produces there own passport currency etc which is boycotted by the ethnic Russians. Russia issues all Ukrainians with Russian passports regardless of if they asked for one or not.
The Ukrainian government start working towards joining the EU ( sounds like Georgia) in one 24 hour period the prime minister does a 180. people hit the streets then the other side hit the streets.

One thing i haven’t seen in a western paper is the volume of Russian refugees heading back into Russia.

There will be no resolution to this issue that would be satisfactory to an Australian palate. they are all mad as dogs.

[bob10]

One thing i haven’t seen in a western paper is the volume of Russian refugees heading back into Russia.

There will be no resolution to this issue that would be satisfactory to an Australian palate. they are all mad as dogs.


That whole area of Europe seems to be under some form of collective insanity. Starting with the Serbs & Croats. Dominated by Mother Russia, with a leader who is certain Western powers are trying to destabilise his government. Not a good mix of lunatics. Let's hope calmer heads prevail in the Kremlin, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis in maps (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26387353)

[Chucaro]

I understand that about 30% of EU gas comes from Russia, and half of it flows through Ukraine.
What would be the implications if Putin close the taps? Can Russia economy afford that?
The EU have reserves for about 3 months and then is in trouble.
There are some news saying that USA is looking ways to help EU to not depending of Russian gas but I cannot see how that can be done soon enough to stop Putin having some leverage in the situation.
I am not sure if the Qatari LNG supply will be enough for EU.
Interesting times regarding how the countries will react but all in all a very bad and sad situation. :(

[85 county]

That whole area of Europe seems to be under some form of collective insanity. Starting with the Serbs & Croats. Dominated by Mother Russia, with a leader who is certain Western powers are trying to destabilise his government. Not a good mix of lunatics. Let's hope calmer heads prevail in the Kremlin, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis in maps (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26387353)

well the thing in Australia is we have no history. Its common to sit down with a Russian have him explain how the king of Sweden invaded Russia, what 500 years ago or what ever. But it is expanded with such passion and hatred as if the king had killed his mother personally. all we have is Gallipoli.

the west has not been destabilizing Russia since the collapse of the CCCP quite the opposite, a stable economically viable Russia is regarded as a necessary for world peace. How ever the process of the collapse of the cccp resulted in embarrassment and a sort of shame in Russia. Though they may still shout " the west wants us week" uumm hard to explain. NB yelson revolution to remove the hard liners was a result of them planning and organizing the invasion of Europe as a solution to there economic mess. yelson then OK the criminal striping of the soviet armory, mainly to Africa which sparked a zillion wars down there

Russia on the hole suffers from an inferiority complex. they think that we think they are uneducated and uncivilized and they wish to prove this but because they are rather uncouth, force is the only thing they sort of understand. add to that they believe that the Ukraine is there’s. IE Argentina forklands etc etc.

Russia is rich but unlike western governments they haven’t spent there money on social programs, they just put it in there pockets

Just look at putins speeches

Bi polar , the world was a safer place when there were two powers.

Russia has no room for minorities, you are in Russia you are Russian.

And his speech in Australia. we are happy that you live in Australia but Russia is your mother country and you will always be apart of Russia. IE Russia owns you.

[85 county]

I understand that about 30% of EU gas comes from Russia, and half of it flows through Ukraine.
What would be the implications if Putin close the taps? Can Russia economy afford that?
The EU have reserves for about 3 months and then is in trouble.
There are some news saying that USA is looking ways to help EU to not depending of Russian gas but I cannot see how that can be done soon enough to stop Putin having some leverage in the situation.
I am not sure if the Qatari LNG supply will be enough for EU.
Interesting times regarding how the countries will react but all in all a very bad and sad situation. :(

history sheesh
they did turn it off, in 2009 or 2010 i think

As a result the European countrys reliant on Russian gas, Poland 90% Germany 20% etc have put plans into place. So i suspect that it may not be comfortable but manageable.
Also look at the timing, heading into there summer!!

[Chucaro]

history sheesh
they did turn it off, in 2009 or 2010 i think

As a result the European countrys reliant on Russian gas, Poland 90% Germany 20% etc have put plans into place. So i suspect that it may not be comfortable but manageable.
Also look at the timing, heading into there summer!!

Yes, so what it is Putin's card, brute force? :(

[85 county]

Think Czechoslovakia + Potsdam Declaration + Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact


the problem with the last two, is that it gives Russia the hole hearted believe that not only was it there to begin with ( Catherine the great) but it also has been given back twice by all sides.

Any interference by the west or the US is in there eyes and arguably correct breaking Potsdam Declaration specifically the spears of influence.

But more recently was sajavo. The use of NATO instead of the UN to decide action, really scared the bejeases out of them. After that we will never be trusted again, worse its sort of understandable to.

[Chucaro]

A referendum is planned on the 30/3 and the people in Sevastopol rallied in support of a vote on the future status of the peninsula, due on March 30. Greater autonomy. I just wonder if more options are added in these referendum what will be the reaction if full independence is voted by the majority of the Crimea people.
Have the UN or the EU valid excuses to not valid the wish of the Crimea population?
I guess that this could be the most peaceful out come.
Is a mention of the referendum in the Ria Novosti site HERE (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140306/188125702/Crimea-to-Set-Up-Own-Law-Enforcement-and-Security-Services.html)

[sashadidi]

If you want to begin to understand Russians a good book is
RUSSIA AS IT IS: Transformation of a Lose/Lose Society
RUSSIA AS IT IS: Transformation of a Lose/Lose Society: Matthew Maly: 9781591133919: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/RUSSIA-AS-IT-IS-Transformation/dp/1591133912)
written by a Russian, its a good but perhaps difficult read but explains perhaps why there is different thinking in Russia and why it happens the way it happens.
I do not understand Russia even with a Russian wife and family but I am still learning......
Just google it and download if you want in PDF

[bob10]

well the thing in Australia is we have no history. Its common to sit down with a Russian have him explain how the king of Sweden invaded Russia, what 500 years ago or what ever. But it is expanded with such passion and hatred as if the king had killed his mother personally. all we have is Gallipoli.


.


I'm sorry, I disagree with a passion on both those points. Not being mean, it just shows complete ignorance of Australias' history. Russia was born about 1,000 years ago, by then this country had been going for about 39,000 years. The longest continued human habitation on Earth , ie, one race, without a break, is here. There is a culture as deep and rich as any on Earth, if you wish to look. And all we have is Gallipoli? I'm sorry, that statement is just ..... It is really frustrating how little most of the younger population of this country actually know about our history. Sad, Bob

[85 county]

A referendum is planned on the 30/3 and the people in Sevastopol rallied in support of a vote on the future status of the peninsula, due on March 30. Greater autonomy. I just wonder if more options are added in these referendum what will be the reaction if full independence is voted by the majority of the Crimea people.
Have the UN or the EU valid excuses to not valid the wish of the Crimea population?
I guess that this could be the most peaceful out come.
Is a mention of the referendum in the Ria Novosti site HERE (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140306/188125702/Crimea-to-Set-Up-Own-Law-Enforcement-and-Security-Services.html)

it meens nothing to putin.

You need to understand how haglascism morphed into fascism and socialism then communism. a sort of reverse social engineering back to the absolute feudal

[85 county]

I'm sorry, I disagree with a passion on both those points. Not being mean, it just shows complete ignorance of Australias' history. Russia was born about 1,000 years ago, by then this country had been going for about 39,000 years. The longest continued human habitation on Earth , ie, one race, without a break, is here. There is a culture as deep and rich as any on Earth, if you wish to look. And all we have is Gallipoli? I'm sorry, that statement is just ..... It is really frustrating how little most of the younger population of this country actually know about our history. Sad, Bob

OK i concede your point, and agree.
I qualify my comments with “commonly known history"

But in context, the only comparative history to the topic at hand is Gallipoli. and that isn’t even an equivalent sentence in the volume that is Russian history

[bob10]

OK i concede your point, and agree.
I qualify my comments with “commonly known history"

But in context, the only comparative history to the topic at hand is Gallipoli. and that isn’t even an equivalent sentence in the volume that is Russian history




The history you remember, is the history you are taught. There is so much more to our history, perhaps not on the same scale as Russia, but just as interesting. I'll point you to a couple of books, if you want to educate yourself.


1. Monash.. the outsider who won a war. " Australian General Sir John Monash changed the way wars were fought and won. When the British and German high commands of the First World War, [ the one Russia found too hard to continue ] failed to gain ascendancy after four years of unprecedented human slaughter, Monash used innovative techniques to plan and win a succession of major battles that led to the end of the great War. " He had a German-Jewish background, hence the ' outsider'. And those battles were fought and won by the best soldiers on the Western Front at that time, the Australian divisions. The German 'blitzkreig', at the beginning of WW2 , were based on Monash's tactics.


Kokoda, by Paul Ham... " In this unique and balanced portrayal, journalist Paul Ham recounts both the Australian and Japanese perspectives of the Kokoda Track campaign, in which thousands fought & died in WW2. Kokoda relates the stories of ordinary soldiers in ' the Worlds worst killing fields' & examines the role of Commanders in sending ill-equipped, unqualified Australian troops into battles that resulted in near 100 % casualty rates. " A battle fought initially by 19 -20 year old militia, poorly trained. They won in the end, against a Japanese Army fresh from the victories in China & Singapore. BTW, the first defeat on land in Asia, against the Japanese Army , was by the Australians at Milne Bay.


Last call of the bugle. A book about the Australians in Korea, with the 27th Commonwealth Brigade. The best Battalion in the Brigade, never defeated. and climaxes with the battle of Kapyong.


We could go back to the Boxer rebellion in China, or The Maori wars in N.Z. or the Boer War. This is not taking into consideration the war between the Europeans & indigenous people of Australia. And, after WW1, Australians fought in Russia, against the Bolsheviks. Cheers, sorry for the lecture, Bob
Australian contribution to the Allied Intervention in Russia 1918–19





https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/1044.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fusiliers_North_Russia_1919_(AWM04700).jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.23wmf15/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fusiliers_North_Russia_1919_(AWM04700).jpg)
Australian Fusiliers of the 45th Battalion in Russia, 1919


The Russian Civil War (1917–1921) began after the provisional government collapsed and the Bolsheviks party assumed power in Russia in October 1917. The principal fighting occurred between the Bolshevik Red Army and the forces of the White movement being a group of loosely-allied anti-Bolshevik forces. During the war a number of foreign armies also took part, mostly fighting against the Red Army—including the Allies of World War I whilst many foreign volunteers also fought for both sides. Other nationalist and regional political groups also participated in the war,


including the Ukrainian nationalist Green armies the Ukrainian anarchist Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine -


and Black Guards and warlords such as Roman von Ungern-Sternberg . Despite some pressure from Britain, the Australian Prime Minister, Billy Hughes had refused to commit forces to Russia following the end of World War I in 1918.

However, while no Australian units were engaged in operations there, many individuals did subsequently become involved through service with the British Army during the North Russia Intervention They served in a variety of roles, including as advisors to White Russian units as part of the North Russia Intervention (NREF). About 150 men of the First Australian Imperial Force who were still in England awaiting repatriation following the end of World War I also enlisted as Infantry - in the North Russia Intervention (NRRF), where they were involved in a number of sharp battles.


The Royal Australian Navy was involved too, with the destroyer HMAS Swan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Swan_(D61)) briefly engaged in an intelligence gathering mission in the Black Sea in late-1918 on behalf of the British military mission then advising the White Russian General officer Anton Denikin There were several Australians acting as advisers with this mission as well, while several more served as advisers with Admiral Alexander Kolchak -
Later, another small group of Australian volunteers also served in a number of operations in Mesopotamia as part of Dunsterforce and although these missions were mainly aimed at preventing Turkish access to the Middle East and India, and they also did little fighting.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_contribution_to_the_Allied_Intervention _in_Russia_1918%E2%80%9319#cite_note-m8-2)

[Chucaro]

it meens nothing to putin.

You need to understand how haglascism morphed into fascism and socialism then communism. a sort of reverse social engineering back to the absolute feudal

Yes, I believe that that is the situation now adding on the top of that the mother of all corruptions :(
Make you wonder if the old Russia was not better of :(
The greed for political power and money bring the worth of humans regardless in which part of the world they live.

[85 county]

Yes, I believe that that is the situation now adding on the top of that the mother of all corruptions :(
Make you wonder if the old Russia was not better of :(
The greed for political power and money bring the worth of humans regardless in which part of the world they live.

no

you are aflicted by a comon mis conseption. russians look like us so think like us. we in the same was we dont think like poms or yanks, if you get your meaning

in a sentence. Australians vote for our government and we OWN Australia. as opposed to Mother Russia OWNS Russians.

And haglascism. Where the state is above the law, simply because it makes the law, the citizens are obliged to the state, as opposed as the state being obliged to the people.

That’s what JFKs Berlin speech was aimed at,

We are talking about some Core humanities. You can live it breath it but never understand it because you were not born to it. Russians Often claim the west do not understand the Russian sole. they are correct. We cant not see the Russian sole just as we can not see a black hole in space. We only know its there because of its effect on the universe around it. Yet we struggle to explain what it really is.

[85 county]

The history you remember, is the history you are taught. There is so much more to our history, perhaps not on the same scale as Russia, but just as interesting. I'll point you to a couple of books, if you want to educate yourself.

.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_contribution_to_the_Allied_Intervention _in_Russia_1918%E2%80%9319#cite_note-m8-2)

yes great wow, thanks for the history, well known but light.

you say monash changed the way wars were fought. nope it changed the way WW1 was fought. in short you are referring to the " reinforce success" as opposed to " reinforce lack of success " in short the change from sending the reserve troops to follow up on the advance parties who had broken though. " as opposed to sending reserve troops to assist those parts of the line that had not advance.
But that is tactics NOT war

As any military commander and they will say war is about logistics. Russia invented modern logistics as well as the tactics of withdraw as used today.

We all think Napoleon was defeated by the Russian winter. Well actually that is rubbish. The reasons we believe this is. The average Russian was illiterate, so there was not much in the line of written records, even orders were not often written. Also the Russian solder was a soldier for life. One he was in his unit he was there until he died.
The French wrote most of the history, and given the nature of politics at the time they tended to blame every thing but themselves.

But the main reason was logistics, horses and food.

In short the Russians were the first army to completely supply there troops from home. The Russians pushed the French all the way back to Paris. We even use the word Bistro as in fat fried pub food today. It’s actually a Russian word that the French restronts picked up on to get the Russian solders to spend there money at there place. Bistra, Faster/ quick. The birth of fast food.

Wellington took this lesson to heart in Spain, all food came from England and although he advanced into Spain her fought a rearguard action as a means to weaken the French. Just as the Russians had learnt to do as they retreated out of Europe.

Kakoda. Australian won because of logistics, we had the local porters and the japs did not.
Ww1 the German breakthrough. We had logistics they did not. The Germans hit the green line and stopped. They had out run there logistics.

The British army never defeated the Maoris because of logistics

Che was caught and shot because he run out of logistics

Etc etc

So yes Australia has contributed much and all Australians should be proud of what was achieved, but in all reality it pales on the global scale of things.

NB during ww2. my uncle was a pilot in Russia RAF on hurricanes.

[Chucaro]

......................Che was caught and shot because he run out of logistics........................................

Up to three I agree the Che death was different issue unless you think that do avoid of being betrayed is bad logistics but then again it is a different topic perhaps for a thread in the future:)

[bob10]

yes great wow, thanks for the history, well known but light.

you say monash changed the way wars were fought. nope it changed the way WW1 was fought.


So yes Australia has contributed much and all Australians should be proud of what was achieved, but in all reality it pales on the global scale of things.

NB during ww2. my uncle was a pilot in Russia RAF on hurricanes.


Mate, Australia does not have the arrogance to think we are " on the global scale of things". You have it so wrong on Monash. Obviously, a Wikipedia moment. Very ' light ' on facts. I didn't say Monash changed the way war was fought, It was said by better than me. Let me quote more.


'Monash was , according to the testimony of those who knew well his genius for war and what he has accomplished by it, the most resourceful General in the whole of the British Army. ' LLOYD GEORGE


' He was in some ways an utter contrast to the traditional idea of a great military commander .. He, more than anyone , fulfilled the idea that developed in the war- that the scale and nature of operations required a ' big business' type of commander, a great constructive and organising brain. His views were as large as his capacity.' SIR BASIL LIDDELL HART.


I believe eventually hubris will bring down Putin. And Russia.


I also think you need to read up on who actually perfected the logistical side of war. nice talking to you, cheers, Bob

[rangietragic]

What would russia and the world be like if ww2 us general patton had had his way.He was very gung ho,and at the end of the war he could see the problem our "allies" the russians were going to be,so he was saying we should rearm the ss and take on russia!Talk about a loose cannon.He was involved in a car accident and recieved minor injuries.He died in hospital from "complications".Funny that:o

[Sirocco]

hmmm, Another Abkazia I think.

Putin wont back down. He does not care for the US/UN/Nato. He wont go to war but he will do what he needs for the Russians in Ukraine. Likely another separatist region blocked to foreigners for the foreseeable future.

and as for all this 'History' being spoken of, The history of the Eurasian continent is very complex and diverse involving many many countries, nations, religions etc. The Great Game and Ghengis Khan are just 2 complex episodes of history that spanned a very lengthy period in Russian History.

Yes Australia has history but it is a relatively simple history in comparison. Not trying to hurt anyones feelings! Just saying it how it is.

G

[85 county]

What would russia and the world be like if ww2 us general patton had had his way.He was very gung ho,and at the end of the war he could see the problem our "allies" the russians were going to be,so he was saying we should rearm the ss and take on russia!Talk about a loose cannon.He was involved in a car accident and recieved minor injuries.He died in hospital from "complications".Funny that:o

the allies would have been cannon fodder

[rangietragic]

Every time i see a hot blonde russian tennis player i think of the vikings who settled a fair bit of russia:)

[bob10]

hmmm, Another Abkazia I think.




Yes Australia has history but it is a relatively simple history in comparison. Not trying to hurt anyones feelings! Just saying it how it is.

G


Thank God for a simple history. And what fools Europeans are. That is how it is. Bob

[Offender90]

That whole area of Europe seems to be under some form of collective insanity. Starting with the Serbs & Croats. Dominated by Mother Russia, with a leader who is certain Western powers are trying to destabilise his government. Not a good mix of lunatics. Let's hope calmer heads prevail in the Kremlin, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis in maps (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26387353)

Collective insanity - is that a code word for you don't understand?... ;)

The best way I can explain it is
1.) The populations in both former Yugoslavia and Ukraine comprised of roughly even mix of Catholic & Orthodox religions

2.) If you look at the last 100 years in either country, the two religious groups have more often than not been on opposing sides of wars (for various reasons), and just about every person can name someone in their extended family (parents or grandparents, uncles or granduncles) who was tortured / executed or otherwise seriously mistreated by the other side.

3.) Religion was actively discouraged during the last 70 years of communist / socialist rule, so the sense of national identity is derived from your religion rather than your place of residence. So if you're Orthodox and living in Croatia, you consider yourself Serbian, even if your family lived in (what is today) Croatia for the last 500 years. Similar with the Orthodox population in Ukraine identifying as having a Russian national identity (even if it stretches back 150 years rather than 500).

4.) When there is a nationalistic drive in a country in which you are a minority (e.g. Serbians in Croatia, potentially Russians in Ukraine), AND you remember what happened the last time "the other side" had a country and were nationalistic, you don't feel safe.

5.) Populations segregate into common religious groups, even if they haven't been religious for a day in their life before. All of a sudden, you have an us vs them mentality. And you have to have a side, otherwise you get walked over by those that do. Now, if there are clear lines of separation between where the two groups live, thaen its not so much a problem. You get a neat separation like for example Czech Republic and Slovakia. If on the other hand there is no clear majority, that's when all sides feel they have a claim to it. Which is what we saw in Bosnia (effectively a land grab, carved up between Serbs and Croats. The Muslim population was between a rock and a hard place, and parts of the Muslim population sided with Croats, while the other joined with Serbs - they had to pick a side). But I digress.

The borders of both Ukraine and former Yugoslavia are arbitrarily drawn following the end of WW2, so that neither population is particularly homogenous. And the two major populations are old enemies, so it doesn't take much to reignite feelings of animosity between the two.

Not madness, just unfortunate reality.


Oh, and by the way, Western governments have been more than trying to destabilise the region around Russia. NATO has been very effective in encroaching Russia from several sides. Geopolitically, Russia must protect its flanks by keeping a buffer between NATO members and itself. That's one of the sticking points with Russia in Ukraine (i.e. that's another reason why Ukraine is strategically important to Russia's interests)


I understand that about 30% of EU gas comes from Russia, and half of it flows through Ukraine.
What would be the implications if Putin close the taps? Can Russia economy afford that?
The EU have reserves for about 3 months and then is in trouble.
There are some news saying that USA is looking ways to help EU to not depending of Russian gas but I cannot see how that can be done soon enough to stop Putin having some leverage in the situation.
I am not sure if the Qatari LNG supply will be enough for EU.
Interesting times regarding how the countries will react but all in all a very bad and sad situation. :(

It will never come to that. Russia (strategically) doesn't want to give Europe any additional reasons for diversifying its gas supply. It is currently the only one in position to deliver gas to Europe via pipelines. LNG is an alternative, but one that is very costly to set up. Setting up an LNG supply route requires long term committments (and a lot of up front cash) for a project to go ahead. So long as the Russian gas is secure, most of the rest of europe will have little incentive to look elsewhere. Russia has a long track record of delivering gas to Europe, even during the Cold War. I would think they want to build on that rather than jeopardise it.


well the thing in Australia is we have no history. Its common to sit down with a Russian have him explain how the king of Sweden invaded Russia, what 500 years ago or what ever. But it is expanded with such passion and hatred as if the king had killed his mother personally. all we have is Gallipoli.

the west has not been destabilizing Russia since the collapse of the CCCP quite the opposite, a stable economically viable Russia is regarded as a necessary for world peace. How ever the process of the collapse of the cccp resulted in embarrassment and a sort of shame in Russia. Though they may still shout " the west wants us week" uumm hard to explain.

Not sure how you figure that - As far as I understand it, all evidence over the last 20 years would point to the contrary. Could you elaborate further?

[sashadidi]

Yes Offender90 its a complex "game" with passions and history often foreign to Australasian thinking, we cannot comprehend the depth and complexity of it all.
A very basic summary I heard was: they got rid of a money grabbing president hoping for something better and all that happened was nationalism and old wounds reared their ugly but the average guy is the street is still getting nothing.
In the Eastern Ukraine if russia takes "control" the Ukrainian oligarchs will be replaced by Russian ones and nothing changes for the average person.

On a lighter note apparently the referendum on the Crimea independence had the date advanced and will be held yesterday and here was the question asked http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73838&d=1394130659

[sashadidi]

hmmm, Another Abkazia I think.

G

Abkhazia did not work out so well for locals, relatives went their on holiday,anf the locals telling them lots of stories about changes such as all land being slowly "brought" by Russian business men and lots of other changes, you have to be careful what you wish for...

[olbod]

I miss the old CCCP...

They need ball and chain control that's for sure. Using history in this day and age to excuse them doesn't solve anything.
Collective insanity is spot on.
The behavior of those tennis dads here in recent years, demonstates the mindset.
Put millions of them in the same bucket, OMG.

We should butt out and leave them to bite each others ankle's and dig their own mass graves.

Well anyway.

[85 county]

Not sure how you figure that - As far as I understand it, all evidence over the last 20 years would point to the contrary. Could you elaborate further?

firstly a very good post
in regards to destabilizing Russia. i agree that this was the case prior to 1992 in fact the west and mainly the US played a large role in the collapse economically of the CCCP.
however if you take an environment where there was an estimated 25 million dead due to starvation. and a hard right that saw the invasion of Europe as the only way out of the mess. lose lose sanerio. The west saw how an unstable Russia was more dangerous than a soviet Russia.
The west or more importantly the EU wishes Russia to reform and join them to strengthen there economic block and many wish to be able to push out the US.
in short the west tipped in billions to Russia to avoided this. Russia has paid all these cheep loans back now and made quite a speech when it was done so.
However the embarrassment and envy of the Russians do not allow them to join hands with the west. Quite the opposite it pushes them away.
And there have been a few instances since 92 that have been made to reinforce this thinking

[Offender90]

Abkhazia did not work out so well for locals, relatives went their on holiday,anf the locals telling them lots of stories about changes such as all land being slowly "brought" by Russian business men and lots of other changes, you have to be careful what you wish for...

Yeah,have to be careful what you wish for indeed.

Separation from Yugoslavia didn't work out so well for Croatia either. Most assets that previously belonged to the state are now owned by German, Italian, French or American interests. And I'm not just talking about income producing assets such as resorts or waterfront real estate. We're talking about transport infrastructure that was free to use and paid for by the locals (as salary contributions over 20 - 30 years). Now they're toll roads / tunnels, and there is often little alternative... especially in winter.

Both the unemployment and cost of living are by far the highest they've ever been. Time will tell how integration into the EU will work out for Croatia, but I'm willing to make bets. Free-market capitalism at its finest, no doubt.

[Chucaro]

From the news today: the guided-missile destroyer, the USS Truxtun, was heading to the Black Sea area, in a deployment planned before the Ukraine crisis began.

The Pentagon said it had sent six F-15 fighter jets to Lithuania to bolster patrols over the Baltic states.

According to reports in Poland, the US was also sending a squadron of F-16 fighter jets there for a training exercise.

IMHO I think that is a mistake to push or try to intimidate Putin, he will respond if it is necessary.
US and others can do that with countries in the Middle East but not with Russia or China for that matter.

[VladTepes]

and it's fun fun fun til daddy takes Crimea away.....

[bob10]

I still think collective insanity is a fitting description. Bob


BBC News - Why Crimea is so dangerous (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26367786)

[Sirocco]

Yeah,have to be careful what you wish for indeed.

Separation from Yugoslavia didn't work out so well for Croatia either. Most assets that previously belonged to the state are now owned by German, Italian, French or American interests. And I'm not just talking about income producing assets such as resorts or waterfront real estate. We're talking about transport infrastructure that was free to use and paid for by the locals (as salary contributions over 20 - 30 years). Now they're toll roads / tunnels, and there is often little alternative... especially in winter.

Both the unemployment and cost of living are by far the highest they've ever been. Time will tell how integration into the EU will work out for Croatia, but I'm willing to make bets. Free-market capitalism at its finest, no doubt.

I wasn't saying Abkazia was a good thing, I was saying that is the way I can see it going. I spent some time with Abkazians and Georgians along the Black Sea Coast and in Georgia.

Similarly both Croatia and Slovenia have done well out of the collapse of Yugoslavia. Yes they may have toll roads and coastal property/land prices have soured but Im sure many Croatians have done well from it. It is Bosnia who has been hit the hardest and still struggling to move on. The Serbs have just been bullheaded about it all and going around in circles only recently recognising the existence of Kosovo. They still have all the wealth of the former Yugoslavia though.

I like how Bob things Europeans are fools :angel: just be thankful for your simple history and relative lack of bloodshed. It's a very single minded arrogant attitude to portray views like these.

G

[bob10]

[QUOTE=Sirocco;2102443


I like how Bob things Europeans are fools :angel: just be thankful for your simple history and relative lack of bloodshed. It's a very single minded arrogant attitude to portray views like these.

G[/QUOTE]


An article in the Courier Mail Saturday, March 5, makes the situation a little clearer. Some extracts;


" Putin sees Ukraine as potentially a defining moment in his 14 year rule. Lose it totally now- as the interim government in Kiev swings to the West- and anything else he has achieved will be lost. he will also lose many of his supporters given Ukraine rests in the hearts of many Russians now as one of the oldest countries in Europe. Kiev is often referred to as the cradle of Russian civilisation, since the Kievan Rus state predates both Russia and Ukraine.



In 2008, Putin reportedly declared he would contend to annex Crimea in the south and the east of Ukraine bordering Russia if Ukraine were to join NATO. That was also the year Putin marched on Georgia in a war that lasted five days but saw Putin annex Abkhazia and South Ossetia; Russia continues to hold both states. And it was the start of what is driving Putin with Ukraine, his desire to be remembered as the man who pulled the Soviet Union back together.


Three years later, Putin moved to create , by 2015, a bloc of post Soviet states, called the Eurasian Economic Union'. Belarus and Kazakhstan signed up with Russia, but others still have not. It is a USSR by another name, according to Hillary Clinton, then Secretary of State for the US. "


This is insightful;


" Putin is not mad, as many Western observers would like to declare. He is an egomaniac, maybe even a megalomaniac, certainly dictatorial and calculating, playing the media and seeing himself as something of a superhero. If the macho man image wasn't going to work domestically, after the West largely laughed at the images, he simply changed laws to extend his reign. He was acting President from 1999 to 2000, President from 2000 to 2008, prime minister from 2008 to 2012, and president again since 2012.

When the prime ministers stint was up, a law change allowed him to contest a third term, which had also been extended from four years to six. In 2012, there were protests, but Putin, often portrayed as a snarling bear, won power until 2018."


So, we can see the underlying reasons for the action taken by Putin. Not a surprise really, given Russia's feelings after the breakup of the CCCP.


First up Europe is a large place, most of which is not involved .


Yes, I give thanks every day that I live in a country where the citizens can speak their mind without the threat of being taken away and beaten half to death by the "police" . Where genocide, mass murder , and atrocities are not always fresh in the peoples minds, giving rise to 'payback' , and more of the same. If that is single minded and arrogant, guilty as charged. As for fools, I can't be the judge of that. History will judge that.


I do feel a deep sorrow for the citizens of these Baltic Europeon countries who just want to lead a peaceful life, and who get drawn into these never ending conflicts . I feel even more sorrow for the children, especially those who are taught to hate. That is not a sane way to live. Bob

[Markvesna]

When it comes to War, the first casualty is the truth, don't believe any of the News coming out of any of the corporate news services.

[Chucaro]

Mean while, when every body is busy with Russia, China said that there is no room for compromise (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/world/asia/china.html?_r=0) with Japan
Also will be a good opportunity to look into Taiwan affairs.

[Offender90]

Putin's attitude towards Western interference / mediation :wasntme:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/970.jpg

[sashadidi]

......
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73949&d=1394332490

[sashadidi]

When it comes to War, the first casualty is the truth, don't believe any of the News coming out of any of the corporate news services.

In both the west and in Russia....
the ordinary guy is the loser here
Here is a example from the Russian side (no bias one way or the other intended)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=73985&stc=1&d=1394341169

[Ferret]

A few stories now emerging about this in relation to the Ukraine - the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)

It seems back when the USSR dissolved and Ukrainian declared independence it was the world's third largest nuclear power having inherited a large portion of the soviet nuclear arsenal. In 1994, Russia, the USA and the UK negotiated an agreement with Ukrainian to give up its weapons in return for guarantees of territorial security and integrity.


The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations

'Rouge' states such as North Korea and Iran, also being urged to give up nuclear weapons, must be watching with a degree of cynicism rising by the day.

[VladTepes]

I think it was De Gaulle who said that treaties are like young women... they last as long as they last.

The truth of the matter is:

Russia needs the Crimea secure in its control. They will do whatever has to be done to ensure this.

The West, when it comes down to it, doesn't really give two hoots and is not about to go to war over it - especially in a superpower confrontation, when its forces such as they are are set up for asymmetric warfare. The USA also simply cannot in $ terms afford another war, let alone the cost in blood....

[George130]

I think it was De Gaulle who said that treaties are like young women... they last as long as they last.

The truth of the matter is:

Russia needs the Crimea secure in its control. They will do whatever has to be done to ensure this.

The West, when it comes down to it, doesn't really give two hoots and is not about to go to war over it - especially in a superpower confrontation, when its forces such as they are are set up for asymmetric warfare. The USA also simply cannot in $ terms afford another war, let alone the cost in blood....

And that is the problem. As world we need to stand up and say enough is enough.
If i was a rogue state then this tells me don't give up those weapons unless I am firing them at someone. This is also why the UN is a wast of time.
Don't forget the US economy lives for war.

[VladTepes]

They do SAY enough is enough. They just can't, and won't, back it up militarily.

The US economy usually does love a war BUT there has been so much of it of late they simply can't afford another one at this time without forcing the country into recession or possibly even a depression.

Does anyone REALLY want to see a US/Russia conflict or a UN / Russia conflict?
I think not.


And yes the UN is a complete waste of time, packed full of people working to their own personal advantage at the cost of the rest of us. No wonder KRudd is trying to climb on board.

[sashadidi]

If anyone interested in reading stuff from on the ground there , seems a reasonable site with a variety of information from sources on the ground in english

Ukraine Liveblog Day 23: Ukraine’s Interim Prime Minister Meets Obama | The Interpreter (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-23-ukraines-interim-prime-minister-meets-obama/)

[Offender90]

If anyone interested in reading stuff from on the ground there , seems a reasonable site with a variety of information from sources on the ground in english

Ukraine Liveblog Day 23: Ukraine’s Interim Prime Minister Meets Obama | The Interpreter (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-23-ukraines-interim-prime-minister-meets-obama/)

I had a quick look at The Interpreter, and after following several "developing" stories that piqued my interest, I decided to look into the sources that were quoted. Unfortunately, the links provided didn't quite pan out (i.e. they led to nowhere instead of videos they were supposed to link to), so I googled the videos themselves. No luck googling directly either.

So I decided to take a look at "The Interpreter" structure, funding etc, just to get an idea where the money (and potential influence) was coming from.

Two non-profit organisations: London based Herzen Foundation, and New York based Institute of Modern Russia were providing the funding... OK, next step, find out who they are. Googling Herzen Foundation led to an Amsterdam based Alexander Herzen Foundation that was established in the 60's and was aimed at publishing self-published work of Russian dissidents during the soviet era... so far so good, but that foundation was wound down in 1998.

Alexander Herzen Foundation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No mention of a London based Herzen Foundation (borrowing a long established foundation's name for legitimacy... another "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights"?... hmmm, anyhow...)

Onto the Institute of Modern Russia - headed by a Pavel Khodorovsky (http://imrussia.org/en/people)... interesting name - yup, Mikhail Khodorovsky's son. Now, anyone familiar with the name will know he is a Russian oil tycoon (was the wealthiest man in Russia for quite some time) before Putin stripped him of his questionably gotten gains. So the motivation for the paper may have more to do with having an axe to grind / thwarting Putin rather than reporting with integrity.

Lastly, the editor in chief of The Interpreter (basically the guy who decides what's printed) is not only US based, but is a Dartmouth College graduate (a US based Ivy League uni)... reporting on Russian / Ukranian goings on... interesting! Or rather telling...

His LinkedIn profile: Michael Weiss | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-weiss/51/850/7b5)

Skilled Campaigner, he claims! - Previous work included campaiging for US congressmen. Other experience: (unbiassed:angel:) reporting from Syria... I need read no more.


You can make up your own mind, but my conclusion is this: Take what's printed with a good pinch of salt. Understand that what's being printed is most likely aimed at feeding "source material" to US based journalists that don't have time, resources or inclination to do it themselves. So basically for influencing what gets reported in the English speaking world by someone whose fortune was taken back by the state he stole it from 'cos he was an idiot and thought he was untouchable.

In other words... it's all BS IMHO... OK, I now have to do some real work :angel:

[incisor]

Russia can easily turn the US into ashes, the final program News of the Week on Russian TV - YouTube (http://youtu.be/S7zey2uWkH8)

Russia can easily turn the US into ashes, the final program News of the Week on Russian TV

[Chucaro]

International politics between east and west never change, while we are reading about Ukrainian and the wish of Crimea to become independent or part of Russia, in Spain the Catatonia people like to separate from the rest of Spain and there are not much news about it.
Apparently there will be a referendum soon which the Spanish goverment do not recognize..........interesting times ahead

[Offender90]

Veneto in Italy is going through the same, independence motions as well. Apparently they're sick of tourist money from Venice being siphoned off to Rome without much of it coming back.

That and the Americans have kicked out all diplomats from the Syrian embassy in Washington.

[sashadidi]

... so far so good, but that foundation was wound down in 1998.

Pavel Khodorovsky (http://imrussia.org/en/people)... interesting name - yup, Mikhail Khodorovsky's son. Now, anyone familiar with the name will know he is a Russian oil tycoon (was the wealthiest man in Russia for quite some time) before Putin stripped him of his questionably gotten gains. So the motivation for the paper may have more to do with having an axe to grind / thwarting Putin rather than reporting with integrity.

Lastly, the editor in chief of The Interpreter (basically the guy who decides what's printed) is not only US based, but is a Dartmouth College graduate (a US based Ivy League uni)... reporting on Russian / Ukranian goings on... interesting! Or rather telling...

His LinkedIn profile: Michael Weiss | LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/michael-weiss/51/850/7b5)

Skilled Campaigner, he claims! - Previous work included campaiging for US congressmen. Other experience: (unbiassed:angel:) reporting from Syria... I need read no more.


You can make up your own mind, but my conclusion is this: Take what's printed with a good pinch of salt. Understand that what's being printed is most likely aimed at feeding "source material" to US based journalists that don't have time, resources or inclination to do it themselves. So basically for influencing what gets reported in the English speaking world by someone whose fortune was taken back by the state he stole it from 'cos he was an idiot and thought he was untouchable.

In other words... it's all BS IMHO... OK, I now have to do some real work :angel:
Interesting!!! The propaganda war continues on both sides...... we sometimes watch US TV and then the Russian Tv and its amazing the different angles on the same story.
Mikhail Khodorovsky , yes I am sure he did not get his wealth by being nice..... just presents a good face to the world as do all the "bizzinessmen"
Re Ukraine
I hear stories on the ground from my relatives like Maidan recruited a neighbour they knew from outside Kiev, come and help us and you will be paid..
She goes they give her cash US$4000!!!! but its fake and cannot be used and she gets sick and goes home and is allegedly full of amphetamines given to her by the Maidan...
Others report lawlessness in the eastern Ukraine and lots of thugs with pistols and Ak47s using stand over tactics, again the ordinary person gets done over the the bizzinessmen win again whether from Ukraine or Russia.
.
I wonder if the young Crimeans will want to go to the Russian army as it still has conscription..
Ordinary guy is not winning here sadly

[sashadidi]

Veneto in Italy is going through the same, independence motions as well. Apparently they're sick of tourist money from Venice being siphoned off to Rome without much of it coming back.

That and the Americans have kicked out all diplomats from the Syrian embassy in Washington.

Works in other ways as well I hear from the Russian relatives that the Moscow region is alleged to have about 80% of Russias money/wealth which makes them angry.

i

[85 county]

a bit of history

march 19, putin's bit of paper he wrote himself to give himself the crimea ( and its not even Xmas or his BD)

march 19, a silly argi dictator stood on a Magies toes, result he felt the full force of her handbag

march 19, the german commies got the snot kicked out of them on the streets of berlin,

[Ferret]

I heard Julius Caesar has some problems around that time of the month also.

[85 county]

I heard Julius Caesar has some problems around that time of the month also.

yes that poofter always had bad PMS

[bob10]

Round 2 coming up?. I wish I hadn't taken the time to study Hitler & the Nazis, in the lead up to WW2. Sounds like deja vu all over again, Bob


BBC News - Nato warns of Russian army build-up on Ukraine border (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26704205)


[cue, the music, stage right. ]


John Fogerty "Deja Vu All Over Again" acoustic 2008 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/wkazf7znllQ)

[85 county]

Round 2 coming up?. I wish I hadn't taken the time to study Hitler & the Nazis, in the lead up to WW2. Sounds like deja vu all over again, Bob


BBC News - Nato warns of Russian army build-up on Ukraine border (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26704205)


[cue, the music, stage right. ]


John Fogerty "Deja Vu All Over Again" acoustic 2008 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/wkazf7znllQ)

No not at all.

Better you read up on Peter the great, Catherine, and fredric.

The Crimean war is a good start and not just the charge of the light brigade. but from the beginning. its starts like this.

four Russian eastern orthodox monks attacked the roman catholic monks who were holders of the St Maria crossina in Jerusalem. The romans defending there holdings killed 3 Russian monks.
The Russian monks wanted this holy place because it was a good revenue raiser. shortly afterwards Zar ( meaning Cesar since he believes he is the holy descendant of the roman empire, not the holy roman empire that’s the Romans, well the roman’s who were not part of the roman empire when it quitted Rome and moved to Istanbul, but they got kicked out of there and run up the river to Moscow) any way the czar said, look at those dirty sneaky Muslims. Look what they did to our wonderful holy monks. the murdering thieving bustards. Lets teach them a lesson. And by the way a couple of ports that do not freeze over in winter would not be a bad thing. Maybe we could even build a navy and have a go at the poms.
The poms go bugger that. Britannia rules the waves. attack the Russian bustards. the Turks GO hang on a minute that’s our land! attack the bustards. the French go hang on a minute, we are not missing out on this, besides if the poms win they will be even stronger. THE monks were good Catholics and so are we, we should defend there honor. attack the Russian bustards.

see BOB10, politics makes war, armies make logistics, and propaganda justifies it all

so sure read about ww2, but better to read about the beginnings of ww1. because historically speaking ww2 was just part two of ww1.

But a good comparison is the national feeling in Germany which lead to the German frank war ( did you know about this war?)

[disco man]

I think now that the vote has been settled its time for the ukraine govt to switch off the water and power let those who want to suck on putin's tit look to mother russia for warmth, power, water. those that wish to reap the benefits of what the EU can offer i say prosper and be happy. to the rest that want to be part of russia again good luck to you after all the economic sanctions are handed down. ;)

[85 county]

I think now that the vote has been settled its time for the ukraine govt to switch off the water and power let those who want to suck on putin's tit look to mother russia for warmth, power, water. those that wish to reap the benefits of what the EU can offer i say prosper and be happy. to the rest that want to be part of russia again good luck to you after all the economic sanctions are handed down. ;)

Well all that comes from russia anyway.

And Mate, this place is worse than the Balkans. Hot blooded nuttier the lot of them, with family fudes going back generations, with Ukrainians, Tatars ethnic Crimean and Russians in the pot. Ukrainian national pride and prestige on the line. NOPE this is not going to go quiet for the next uuummmm 400 years

On Russia’s side they have the Potsdam declaration.

[disco man]

Well all that comes from russia anyway.

And Mate, this place is worse than the Balkans. Hot blooded nuttier the lot of them, with family fudes going back generations, with Ukrainians, Tatars ethnic Crimean and Russians in the pot. Ukrainian national pride and prestige on the line. NOPE this is not going to go quiet for the next uuummmm 400 years

On Russia’s side they have the Potsdam declaration.
Fully agree with you mate the place is nuts. The only reason i say about the power and water was a report i saw on sky news stating that those services came from the ukraine if i am misinformed thanks for setting me straight on that one. I reckon you got more chance sorting out the gaza strip than this ugly mess.

[85 county]

Fully agree with you mate the place is nuts. The only reason i say about the power and water was a report i saw on sky news stating that those services came from the ukraine if i am misinformed thanks for setting me straight on that one. I reckon you got more chance sorting out the gaza strip than this ugly mess.

ok I gave you the short answer

Populations are based around a power station. there power stations run on Gas. Gas comes from Russia.

Under the soviet system, they built power stations everywhere, though they are quite small compared to what we call a power station. in short they move gas around the land and not electricity. the other reason for this is heating. The power station also provides hot water for the heating of apartment buildings ( or any building for that matter.) This is centralized as well. The hot water heating gets turned on at the same time every year and off at the same time every year. Regardless of the weather. If you live on the top floor of an apartment its is your job to Bleed air out of the system. if you don’t or forget you will be attacked by Babushkas at the bottom of the stairs. If you happen to be away it gives automatic rights to your lower neighbors to take an axe to your front door. Do not ask me how I know this!
Hot water for heating is separate to hot water from your tap.
NB the hot water is turned off for 1 month every year in the middle of summer. Russians do not need much of an excuse not to shower at any time. And I would rather spend a week in 3rd class train across northern India ( which I have done) than a bus to the local supermarket in northern Russia ( which I have done) in summer time. At least in winter the extra layers of clothing mute the bodily odors, well for the first couple of months they do, since washing clothes is some thing that is missed as well.

You can sort of understand why Stalin made it law that ever apartment had to have a bathroom with a bath. But what he didn’t think of since he was a bank robber and not a Gardner is a worm bath in winter is ideal for growing potatoes fast.

NB the Gaza strip is easy to sort out, but we are sort off against ethic cleansing

[bob10]

No not at all.

Better you read up on Peter the great, Catherine, and fredric.

The Crimean war is a good start and not just the charge of the light brigade. but from the beginning. its starts like this





A very colourful & humorous description, but not quite accurate. The Ottoman Empire, which held territories in Europe, Asia & Africa, & was a major Naval power in the Med., by the 1800's was in decline. It had lost land, & was weaker than in previous centuries , to the point where the Empire needed alliances with European powers to support its ambitions. The weakening Ottoman Empire was a region where European diplomats & entrepreneurs could make gains. Businessmen & military adventurers sought opportunities while foreign states became increasingly involved in Ottoman affairs.


One of the issues was control over the Holy Land. Disputes between Orthodox & Catholic Christians were further complicated by national allegiances, resulting in a complex question of who should have authority over the Holy places. Catholic France sought to become the supreme authority in the Holy land, and forced a treaty on the Ottoman Empire to this effect. Partially a diplomatic offensive, but backed up by a French warship deployed to the Black Sea, in violation of international treaties [ starting to sound familiar? ] Russia made her own show of force , deploying troops to the Danube, demanding France reverse her decision. France did and Russia assumed responsibility for protecting the interests of Christians in the Holy land, with all the prestige & authority that went with it.


Russian forces moved into Moldavia & Wallachia, under the pretext of protecting Christians there.[ permitted by treaty , even though they were Ottoman provinces.] The French & British, fearing the expansion of Russian power in Europe, tried to convince the Ottoman Empire to rebuff Russian demands. Both nations sent fleets to the Dardanelles, to demonstrate support for the Ottoman Empire. With the Diplomatic situation unresolved, & Russian troops on Ottoman soil in the Balkans, war was declared by the Ottoman Empire on 23 Oct. 1853.


For a while it was a local affair, fought in the Caucasus and the Danube region of the Balkans. However a Russian Naval attack against Ottoman vessels anchored at Sinop, 30 Nov. 1853, triggered international intervention . On the 28th March 1854, Britain & France declared war on Russia. The rest, as they say , is history.


I find the years from the rise of Napoleon, to the battle of Waterloo, with battles such as Austerlitz, Borodino & Waterloo to be a fascinating read. If you get the chance to read "Europe since Napoleon", by David Thompson take it. It does a valiant attempt to piece together the jigsaw of that period of European history.


I can't help feeling Putin is about to make some more European history. As long as it stays in Europe, without our involvement, that will do me.




we live in interesting times Bob

[disco man]

hey thanks for that really good info. i know what you mean by indian trains went over there on a cricket supporters tour my god do they smell putrid:(

[85 county]

A very colourful & humorous description, but not quite accurate.

you missed my point completely

[85 county]

hey thanks for that really good info. i know what you mean by indian trains went over there on a cricket supporters tour my god do they smell putrid:(

did you like the toilets?? given you probaly spent a lot of time in one LOL

[85 county]

hey thanks for that really good info. i know what you mean by indian trains went over there on a cricket supporters tour my god do they smell putrid:(

ha just though of this

whats the difrence between a 500klmn train trip from bombay to nusilia. and a 270 klm electra train trip from mosscow to Yaroslavl.


















about 2 hours

[disco man]

did you like the toilets?? given you probaly spent a lot of time in one LOL

Mate they were shocking would rather crap my pants:( what got me was people just **** and **** where ever they want to. and that ganges river was just vile i was watching a bloke trying to bath himself while about 3m upstream another bloke was taking a dump.

[disco man]

ha just though of this

whats the difrence between a 500klmn train trip from bombay to nusilia. and a 270 klm electra train trip from mosscow to Yaroslavl.


















about 2 hours

nice one bud:D:p:)

[85 county]

Mate they were shocking would rather crap my pants:( what got me was people just **** and **** where ever they want to. and that ganges river was just vile i was watching a bloke trying to bath himself while about 3m upstream another bloke was taking a dump.

Like the Volga

sewerage out let 2 klms up river from a man made ( only ) Beach
Locals say swim in summer die in autumn, just another reason for Russians to avoid water

[bob10]

you missed my point completely


So ,what was your point. Bob [ have you experienced war?]

[85 county]

So ,what was your point. Bob [ have you experienced war?]

My point is history is not a chronological list of events you read from books usably written by the winners. History in its original Greek version. Has emotion and versions.

your list even lacks sinop, the Russian vers Turkish navy. Thing

And in answer to you direct question, yes. Of my 49 years of the first 17 I spent 13 in an English speaking country. Of the last 6 years i have spent in and English speaking country. 18 months after becoming a father.
Of the intervening years i spent 7 in an English speaking country. Of those years I spent 4 not kitted out. And as you can guess I don’t just speak English
But since you have started a urine height thing, what have you done with your life??

[85 county]

a bit of background

The Tatars ( who are hated by the Russians because they sold them as slaves- hence the word Slav or Slavic people) and the Tartars who we call Mongols didn’t takeover all of Russia. Just about every town has there history about how what etc etc. you can not trust a tartar etc etc.

any way i would trust this tartar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXFdBmnMRgk
Mean time on Russian children’s TV
How to educate your daughter’s etiquette
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc9dn4q0V7I

[VladTepes]

Oh look just like the Malaysia airlines thread,,,,

Will you blokes just leave each other the heck alone. Play the ball not the man.

[85 county]

Oh look just like the Malaysia airlines thread,,,,

Will you blokes just leave each other the heck alone. Play the ball not the man.

im not posting on that thread

[bob10]

Oh look just like the Malaysia airlines thread,,,,

Will you blokes just leave each other the heck alone. Play the ball not the man.


Point taken, Vlad, Perhaps I'm just a slow learner. But I am learning. Bob

[bob10]

On the strength of recent experience, how do I activate the " ignore" facility? I didn't know we had one. Appreciate if some one could explain, Bob

[dullbird]

It's most likely in your user CP and in your settings

I can look and give you a step by step because I can't ignore anyone so I don't have that option

[VladTepes]

Bob

I am in the same position as db so can;t check for sure but try this:






Click on the "User Control Panel" link located near the top of the forum's main page.


Locate the navigation panel to the left of the User Control Panel's main page. Under "Miscellaneous," click the "Buddy/Ignore List" link.


Type the user name of the person whose posts you want to hide in the Ignore List text field, and click "Save List." Adding a user to your Ignore List will automatically hide that person's post in all threads. To reveal the user's posts, remove the check-mark next to their user name and click "Save List."

[disco man]

I see now the Russian army is withdrawing not a 100% sure of all the details. I wonder if it is a result of the proposed sanctions? Surely Putin would not want to seem weak after the recent events? any thoughts

[85 county]

I see now the Russian army is withdrawing not a 100% sure of all the details. I wonder if it is a result of the proposed sanctions. Surely Putin would not want to seem weak after the recent events? Any thoughts

Thanks for posting this, i have had my eye back on the refugee thing.

yes Russia is pulling troops back. But it is back from the Crimean Ukraine ( new) border. it is not out of the Crimea as it first sounds like.

now a couple of quick chats on skypee.
Russian police. when the flack was going on with chech a couple of years ago, and since it was internal civil the army per say was not involved. The FSB have troops as well. Also normal police ( militia). Now the FSB get paid to do what they do, but to get police involved they do a pro rata deal. 3 months on task 1 year closer to pension payments. This also includes GAI ( traffic police)

Its this last point that’s telling. As I said chatting on Skype. it would appear that a few are taking up this latter option. similar to say DIGGER ( a cop) going to E Timor.

Why am I saying this.
well if they are building up the numbers, then yes they will be pulling the troops out ( most of) and replacing them with FSB security troops ( legally not army) and an bunch of police and traffic cops from heartland Russia.
effectively moving not only body’s but skill and Russian legal systems that dovetails directly in to the existing Russian system, ie just an extension of that system.
in short looks like they are planning to stay.

[disco man]

I didn't think Russia would just walk away from what they believe is theirs. But after all this time why are they wanting it back now? I mean why is now the right time? Would putin have plans to reclaim Georgia or is no cultural value in this.

[bob10]

A bit of background , Bob


BBC News - Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ?Soviet? Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481)

[disco man]

A bit of background , Bob


BBC News - Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ?Soviet? Russia (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481)

Very interesting article it seems we were warned. The image of a more progressive leader leading the country in a new direction is kind of true but the real truth it seems the direction is back to the soviet ways. I think countries of the former Soviet union should be very worried it seems the rebuilding of the Soviet union is about to begin. But this idea of complete independence of the western world may be a little harder to achieve after the amount of time the Russian people have enjoyed the western way of living including Putin himself. Like the article says one thing Putin can't control is oil supply which will be a huge factor in what he wants to achieve.

[Offender90]

Deleted due to incompletion - will repost once complete.

[85 county]

I didn't think Russia would just walk away from what they believe is theirs. But after all this time why are they wanting it back now? I mean why is now the right time? Would putin have plans to reclaim Georgia or is no cultural value in this.

Georgia is a different game again. Firstly the Locals Georgians have not been displaced by Russian forced immigration as is the case in the Crimea. Secondly the natives are regarded in a very derogatory way Georgians are not liked. While I was in Russia Putin passed a law that only Russian citizens could work in retail. the face of Russia needs to be Russian. Russians are what I would say not good shopkeepers. but Georgians seem to be good traders. Every fruit and veggie shop stall was owned managed and run by Georgians. overnight you couldn’t buy an apple. It took about a month for things to get back to normal. Starln was Georgian.
besides with what they annexed they got what they wanted, the high ground and a port.
The last point is that what they did grab proved to be very expensive for the Russians. (was there) the news reports where something like the Russians rolled in on the 6th but they actually tried to roll in on the 5th. 600 Georgian Parra held them up for just over 24 hours. no paras survived. Add to that the 2000 Georgians armed and equipped by the yanks in Iraqi which the yanks laid on a impressive air movement to get them home. In short the Russians losed the stomach for it and after all they had the fruit off the tree already.

But the SOP was the same, rolling in to support the local ethic population who wanted the Russians to come. There was a lot of unrest between Georgia and these annexed areas before, century’s old conflicts, that the Russians are very good at manipulating to there advantage.

[85 county]

Very interesting article it seems we were warned. The image of a more progressive leader leading the country in a new direction is kind of true but the real truth it seems the direction is back to the soviet ways. .

agree an interesting but far from complete article, that appears to be written in hindsight. Russia will not go back to the soviet system. the majority of Russians understand that the system failed them but they do want security and pride. Both were lost with the soviet collapse.



I think countries of the former Soviet union should be very worried it seems the rebuilding of the Soviet union is about to begin. But this idea of complete independence of the western world may be a little harder to achieve after the amount of time the Russian people have enjoyed the western way of living including Putin himself. .

To even sagest that Russians have a western way of living is so way off the mark to be a joke. the transformation to a democracy and the planets biggest historical example of how to rip off a nation. It was disgusting immoral and it was done mainly by the yanks who moved power from one sector to another sector which they believed could be easily influenced by them. How can you take 170 million people who had never voted in the life’s and actually get them to vote. Most Russians even today can not tell the difference between democracy and capitalism all they know is it is not working. But they have father in Putin as a strong man who can hold it all together.




Like the article says one thing Putin can't control is oil supply which will be a huge factor in what he wants to achieve.

He may not control the oil supply ( oil and Gas) but he also has no need to. The Russian government tax’s every cent over $50 a barrel. The price goes up they make more. The government owns the land and the oil but leases the rights to various companies including its own company Gasprom. Although Gasprom is not actually a government own business its shareholders are also people who hold office etc.
Gasprom holds all the pipelines out of Russia. so you see he has no need to control because he has control.

[disco man]

What i meant by the western way of living is before the fall of the Soviet union i don't think the people enjoyed the things they enjoy now like decent cars, good tv's, decent electronics. the Soviet's during the cold war were making very good military equipment but in that time did they make a good car or tractor or even a good motorbike i bet a russian made tv compared to a japanese one would have been a ****box. That's what i mean they enjoy the good's from the western world

[85 county]

What i meant by the western way of living is before the fall of the Soviet union i don't think the people enjoyed the things they enjoy now like decent cars, good tv's, decent electronics. the Soviet's during the cold war were making very good military equipment but in that time did they make a good car or tractor or even a good motorbike i bet a russian made tv compared to a japanese one would have been a ****box. That's what i mean they enjoy the good's from the western world

Not arguing but i have not made my point.
They do not enjoy much more than before. nor do they make any thing better than before.
What has happened in some industries have moved ahead and some have not. IT for example.
maybe an example, my neighbors 31 and 28 years old, he in IT, he started in the IT with the army, hence he is not allowed to hold a passport. His wife is an engineer with a good job heavily involved in building Yaroslavl’s second road bridge and associated civil works.

They are not high flyers. they have one child the same age as my boy & years old. They own there two bedroom apartment and IKEA furniture ( now that’s really flash) they have a 15 year old VW passat SW with 389 000 klm which they paid $12000 USD for ( that’s flash). they can not afford to travel over seas.

Now relate that to Australia, same age but there income would be in the range of about 250K-300K per anum ( household)

Food is cheep, clothing is cheep but that’s all.

Take a policeman say mid 20s. his pay is about 14000 rub a month his rent is about 10000 rubles a month. he stands at a check point 2 days in a row for 12 hours and then gets 2 days off. in +35 deg to - 35 deg. he expects 200 rubles from every driver who is not Russian ( see my Georgian post) most of which is handed up to his boss. he probably works on his days off for a private security company which pays more but which he can not do if he is not a real policeman ( militia) this private security firm MAY be what we call mafia using stand over tactics to raise money for this employer. who he is very jealousy of because they are driving a New Merc but is to well connected or is a pollie so he just has to suck it and see.

[disco man]

It's been reported that the Russian army is massing on the border the footage shows a very large build up.And the US navy has a destroyer in the black sea with more naval units to follow.


Any thoughts on what might happen next Bob?

[bob10]

It's been reported that the Russian army is massing on the border the footage shows a very large build up.And the US navy has a destroyer in the black sea with more naval units to follow.


Any thoughts on what might happen next Bob?


Putins plan B. Bob


BBC News - Ukraine leader Yatsenyuk offers powers to troubled east (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26984799)

[bob10]

NATO says... Bob


BBC News - In pictures: Russian military build-up near Ukraine (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26968312)

[disco man]

It looks like Putin is flexing his muscles. It seems to me a very large showing of force against an Ukranian army that would be swept aside very easily. But i can't understand why the US navy is there? Obama would not want to be militarily involved in this.

And it's not like the USA to just watch from the sidelines they have quiet a history of interfering in other countries affairs.So how this is going to pan out is not very clear in the long term.

[bob10]

It looks like Putin is flexing his muscles. It seems to me a very large showing of force against an Ukranian army that would be swept aside very easily. But i can't understand why the US navy is there? Obama would not want to be militarily involved in this.

And it's not like the USA to just watch from the sidelines they have quiet a history of interfering in other countries affairs.So how this is going to pan out is not very clear in the long term.


Well, to be honest, just a bit of posturing by the USA, Putin will get what he wants, NATO will huff & puff, as long as Putin does not push too far. When you think about it, why would the EU want Ukraine , another bankrupt state, to join Greece, Italy, the only thing Ukraine is good for is a buffer, between Russia, & the EU. Let Putin have his way in this, so the Russian people will regard him as the saviour of the Soviet state, and return some lost pride to them. Just let Putin know, enough is enough. I think that is called diplomacy. Just make sure there is a Churchill waiting in the wings, in case it all goes pear shaped. Bob

[George130]

Well, to be honest, just a bit of posturing by the USA, Putin will get what he wants, NATO will huff & puff, as long as Putin does not push too far. When you think about it, why would the EU want Ukraine , another bankrupt state, to join Greece, Italy, the only thing Ukraine is good for is a buffer, between Russia, & the EU. Let Putin have his way in this, so the Russian people will regard him as the saviour of the Soviet state, and return some lost pride to them. Just let Putin know, enough is enough. I think that is called diplomacy. Just make sure there is a Churchill waiting in the wings, in case it all goes pear shaped. Bob

That might be diplomacy but that is also what is wrong with the world. A zero tolerance with all nations is what should be taken. When the world is willing to stand up regardless of the country in the wrong that is when this sort of thing will stop. Pity they don't have the guts to cut Russia off 100% over this.

And yes I know the US does wrong to.

[sashadidi]

Just make sure there is a Churchill waiting in the wings, in case it all goes pear shaped. Bob Bit different now Bob with nuclear warheads around.....

[bob10]

Bit different now Bob with nuclear warheads around.....


Good point, the elephant in the room, I'm desperately trying to forget about the doomsday option. Just reminds me it is time to get off the posterior, stop dreaming, & get out there, in the Disco.Bob

[VladTepes]

That might be diplomacy but that is also what is wrong with the world. A zero tolerance with all nations is what should be taken. When the world is willing to stand up regardless of the country in the wrong that is when this sort of thing will stop. Pity they don't have the guts to cut Russia off 100% over this.

And yes I know the US does wrong to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yVh4t3TxA

[Chucaro]

That might be diplomacy but that is also what is wrong with the world. A zero tolerance with all nations is what should be taken. When the world is willing to stand up regardless of the country in the wrong that is when this sort of thing will stop. Pity they don't have the guts to cut Russia off 100% over this.

And yes I know the US does wrong to.

Not to mention England, it is not good for them and no recognize the wishes of the Crimea people for joining Russia but recognize the wishes of the people that live in the Malvinas ;)
Hypocrite position beyond belief!

[BMKal]

Not to mention England, it is not good for them and no recognize the wishes of the Crimea people for joining Russia but recognize the wishes of the people that live in the Malvinas ;)
Hypocrite position beyond belief!

Yes - this one has had me a little puzzled too. It seems that there is one standard for some, and a very different one for others.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Falklands or Malvinas remaining a part of the UK as that is what the people there have indicated that they want in a referendum.

But I equally don't have a problem with the Crimea returning to being part of Russia - as that is what the majority of the people there have also indicated that they want in a referendum.

But there appear to be many hypocrites who do not agree .............. ;)

Wouldn't have anything to do with some gas pipelines running through the area (Crimea) would it - or is that just the cynic in me.

[85 county]

Yes pipelines though the Crimea for sure

You also need to look at the Gas arguments with the Ukraine in the mid 2000s
in brief the Russians accused the Ukraine of sponging off thousands of cubic meters of gas with out paying for it. After months of debate the Russians cut the Gas off. ( ie gas flows though the Ukraine to Europe).Europe with 120 days reserve in winter got the ****s up.

End result was gas back on, where the Ukraine was paying 105C a cubic meter was now paying 90 a cubic meter. and Europe had implemented a plan to remove the dependency on Russian Gas ( more or less) thus removing Russians power ( in part)

There was also the instance of the Ukraine moving a statue dedicated to the sacrifice of the soviet solder in freeing the Ukraine from the Nazi yoke. unfortunately since the Ukraine historically has been a punching bag for the last 400 years they didn’t care
a brief history.
the Ukraine was a part of the duchy of Warsaw. the naives ( Slavs) revolted and got slotted. The natives then cut a deal with the neighboring Tatars ( Crimea) and a unified force they defeated the duchies forces ( winged Calvary) it was short lived and Warsaw slowly took the lands back with vengeance. However in Russian history this is the basis of there hatred of Poland. And there constant bleating of Poland’s invasion of Russia. even though Russia as a country didn’t really exist at that time though there was Moscow.
Napoleon invaded Russia, the Russian armies draw the Grand armies out then beat it back to Paris. As a result the Ukraine was cut up between Poland or the duchy of Warsaw. ( Poland did not exist as a country) the Prussians and Austrians, with Russia keeping the majority.

Soviet revolution, as a result many countries or states within the Russian empire claimed independence, Ukraine Lithuania Belorussia etc, ababorjan. But places like Georgia did not. This was part of the deal with Germany and Lenin to stop the war on the eastern front. basically the Russian lands held by the Germans would be made independent

And so it was how ever this did lead in part to the downfall of the communist provisional government and the rise of the Stalinist dictatorship. In the best of the American attitudes” if your not with us you are against us” so the states who had cut away from Russia were enemies.
Thus we come to the Molotov Rubintoff pact. We all know Germany invaded Poland, well actually they only invaded ½ of Poland, the CCCP invaded the other ½. As well as lithuaninia and the Ukraine Belorussia etc etc.
They then started there war with Finland. Ironically Germany gifted most of the captured French equipment Aircraft guns etc to Finland.

Then comes the Potsdam declaration. The redrawing of the map by the USA CCCP and the UK. Basically giving the country’s to Russian spear of influence. The only part of this that did not work was Tito’s Yugoslavia. Not until his passing did the soviet tanks get to roll though there streets.

And that is what Russia is holding on to, the Potsdam declaration, the fact that Russia signed away the Crimea and the Ukraine is dismissed and the west’s trickery while Russia was week. Or signed under duress by a drunken president. And thus has no merit or legal standing.


So regard less of what we think, Russia wants is breakaway states back, Russian public opinion demands it as does Russian ego. And to a Russian it is entirely logical but what is illogical to Russians is why the west should complain. Did not the USA annex texis, Cuba and the Philippines?
The UK has no excuse. But the current standing is encouraging Argentina to rumble about the fork lands again.

Now while we are watching and winging about the Ukraine the other movements have been in the Stans, big K and little K seem to be having some difficulties with there old protector and look like they may soon be sucked back into the sphere. Also is a land tussle with china, Chinese settlers seem to be moving on to Russian soil and setting up farming bases, all roads leading back to china ( Russia is a big place this could go on for years with out being noticed)

All this maneuvering will pick up apace, Russia plays its game because the west is divided week and pre occupied with Afghanistan and north Africa. This gives an opportunity for other states with grievances towards the western countries to also make moves, IE Argentina, Salvador,. And lastly china.

Both china and Japan are building up there armed forces in both numbers and tehecnology, it is simple to see how things will roll out. The rot is in the old order and the scavengers will eat it away. There will be a few scraps along the way maybe even a major one, but even the victors of that will be economically weekend as to no longer be a power

A few years ago Putin made a speech. Bi polar. In short he was saying that the world was a safer place with only to major powers. At the time I though he was a bit Mad. But now I think he was correct

[85 county]

Not to mention England, it is not good for them and no recognize the wishes of the Crimea people for joining Russia but recognize the wishes of the people that live in the Malvinas ;)
Hypocrite position beyond belief!

On the surface yes.

But Russia signed the Crimea away in the early 90s. England has not signed the fork lands away and infact have been actively defending it.

[bob10]

The Ukraine are not exactly financial. Sounds like the previous Government lined their own pockets. Bob


BBC News - Ukraine economy: How bad is the mess and can it be fixed? (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26767864)

[frantic]

Not to mention England, it is not good for them and no recognize the wishes of the Crimea people for joining Russia but recognize the wishes of the people that live in the Malvinas ;)
Hypocrite position beyond belief!


A:They had a referendum and 3 voted to join Argentina the rest(99%) said no.
B: Up until the U.K colonised the Falkland's, about 200 years ago, it was deserted, Umm I think the Crimea and Ukraine have been populated by various peoples for a very long time.
C: there is a thread for the Falkland's in which you where answered. ;)


Getting back to THIS thread, has there or would there be any chance of an independent referendum of the areas as it could be a 3 way vote. Re- Join Russia, stay Ukraine or Re-join Poland :D


One of my in-laws came from Poland, and both his parents identified as polish, but his mum was born in an area that is now part of the Ukraine

[bob10]

A very interesting German view of Russia, Bob


BBC News - Germans not keen to ruffle Russian feathers (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26988891)

[Chucaro]

On the surface yes.

But Russia signed the Crimea away in the early 90s. England has not signed the fork lands away and infact have been actively defending it.


Wrong
In 1816 Argentina formally claim its independence and claim sovereignty over malvinas taking posession of the islands Continuing the spanish rule there. In 1825 England recognize the argentine independence in a treaty of friendship and commerce without mention the total control of the islands by Argentina.
on 3 January 1833, a corvette of the British Royal Navy forcefully expelled the Argentine authorities that refused to recognize any authority on its part. This event, which took place in times of peace, without any prior declaration or notice from a government that was thought to be a friend of the Argentine Republic, was immediately rejected and protested against by the Argentine authorities. Indeed, on 16 January 1833, when the first news of the events in the Malvinas Islands reached Buenos Aires, the Argentine government requested an explanation from the British Chargé d Affaires, who was not aware of the action taken by his country. A few days later, on 22 January, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Argentina submitted a formal protest before him, which was renewed and expanded on several occasions by the Argentine representative in London. The repeated Argentine submissions before the British Government invariably met with negative answers from Britain.

[Chucaro]

A:They had a referendum and 3 voted to join Argentina the rest(99%) said no.
B: Up until the U.K colonised the Falkland's, about 200 years ago, it was deserted, Umm I think the Crimea and Ukraine have been populated by various peoples for a very long time.
C: there is a thread for the Falkland's in which you where answered. ;)

.................................................. ..................................

Yes and the answers were wrong as you are.
Lets go back to this thread ;)

[George130]

1 I'm not saying Crimea stays with Ukraine.

The way it has been done is in no way acceptable and I do not believe the referendum has any legitimacy.

Russia needs to but out and then the UN (Ha ha UN doing anything) can step in and conduct a referendum where the people have a choice and that then dictates its future.

Yes the Falklands or Malvinas is an issue and again the people should have a say.

The world is getting more unstable again as mentioned Korea is a hot spot, china and most of its neighbors are arguing over who owns what.

In a simplistic way dictators and despots should not be tolerated. Invasion of recognized countries should not be tolerated.

Interesting solution I heard years ago was in these situations coutries are given 1 warning and if they don't head it then both countries are evenly divided up amoungs its neighbours and the country ceases to exist. Anyone know how to manage that one?

Biggest issue on this one was the treaty that was signed by all the big players including Russia over the Ukraine when it surrendered it's nukes. So as a wannabe power I now know never surrender my WMD's unless I fire them at you as the treaty is worth jack.

[85 county]

Wrong
In 1816 Argentina formally claim its independence and claim sovereignty over malvinas taking posession of the islands Continuing the spanish rule there. In 1825 England recognize the argentine independence in a treaty of friendship and commerce without mention the total control of the islands by Argentina.
on 3 January 1833, a corvette of the British Royal Navy forcefully expelled the Argentine authorities that refused to recognize any authority on its part. This event, which took place in times of peace, without any prior declaration or notice from a government that was thought to be a friend of the Argentine Republic, was immediately rejected and protested against by the Argentine authorities. Indeed, on 16 January 1833, when the first news of the events in the Malvinas Islands reached Buenos Aires, the Argentine government requested an explanation from the British Chargé d Affaires, who was not aware of the action taken by his country. A few days later, on 22 January, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Argentina submitted a formal protest before him, which was renewed and expanded on several occasions by the Argentine representative in London. The repeated Argentine submissions before the British Government invariably met with negative answers from Britain.

what has that got to do with my post or this thread,

[101RRS]

A:They had a referendum and 3 voted to join Argentina the rest(99%) said no.
B: Up until the U.K colonised the Falkland's, about 200 years ago, it was deserted, Umm I think the Crimea and Ukraine have been populated by various peoples for a very long time.
C: there is a thread for the Falkland's in which you where answered. ;)


Getting back to THIS thread, has there or would there be any chance of an independent referendum of the areas as it could be a 3 way vote. Re- Join Russia, stay Ukraine or Re-join Poland :D

One of my in-laws came from Poland, and both his parents identified as polish, but his mum was born in an area that is now part of the Ukraine


Wrong
In 1816 Argentina formally claim its independence and claim sovereignty over malvinas taking posession of the islands Continuing the spanish rule there. In 1825 England recognize the argentine independence in a treaty of friendship and commerce without mention the total control of the islands by Argentina.
on 3 January 1833, a corvette of the British Royal Navy forcefully expelled the Argentine authorities that refused to recognize any authority on its part. This event, which took place in times of peace, without any prior declaration or notice from a government that was thought to be a friend of the Argentine Republic, was immediately rejected and protested against by the Argentine authorities. Indeed, on 16 January 1833, when the first news of the events in the Malvinas Islands reached Buenos Aires, the Argentine government requested an explanation from the British Chargé d Affaires, who was not aware of the action taken by his country. A few days later, on 22 January, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Argentina submitted a formal protest before him, which was renewed and expanded on several occasions by the Argentine representative in London. The repeated Argentine submissions before the British Government invariably met with negative answers from Britain.

Chucca - as mentioned above - this is a thread on the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia - go and push your views in the correct thread on the Falklands - oh but you did and when you got no where with your position you said you were not going to continue with your views there but then you come across here.

No more on the Falklands in this thread please.

Garry

[ramblingboy42]

Chucca - as mentioned above - this is a thread on the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia - go and push your views in the correct thread on the Falklands - oh but you did and when you got no where with your position you said you were not going to continue with your views there but then you come across here.

No more on the Falklands in this thread please.

Garry

have you become a moderator?

[101RRS]

have you become a moderator?

Why ask a question that you already know the answer to.

[Chucaro]

what has that got to do with my post or this thread,

That was in reply to your post #140 QUOTE: On the surface yes.

But Russia signed the Crimea away in the early 90s. England has not signed the fork lands away and infact have been actively defending it. END of QUOTE

[Chucaro]

Chucca - as mentioned above - this is a thread on the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia - go and push your views in the correct thread on the Falklands - oh but you did and when you got no where with your position you said you were not going to continue with your views there but then you come across here.

No more on the Falklands in this thread please.

Garry

The Malvinas was brought by me as a comparison between Crimea and the Islands referendum.
Regarding your comment that I got not where is wrong, I stop continuing in a thread were views by posters were not back up by history and only by bias ideas. ;)
.........lets go back to the topic of the thread and keep the view about Russia behavior in a non bias manner towards other countries that act or have acted in a similar manner:)

[85 county]

That was in reply to your post #140 QUOTE: On the surface yes.

But Russia signed the Crimea away in the early 90s. England has not signed the fork lands away and infact have been actively defending it. END of QUOTE

but you are posting about original acquisition. to which i have not commented on!
so what and why are you rabbiting on about it?
to boot it has nothing to do with this thread apart from the fact that russia has used The forklands and Texas as justification for then taking the Crimea back

[BMKal]

Chucca - as mentioned above - this is a thread on the Ukraine, Crimea and Russia - go and push your views in the correct thread on the Falklands - oh but you did and when you got no where with your position you said you were not going to continue with your views there but then you come across here.

No more on the Falklands in this thread please.

Garry

Why not.

Arthur has made a valid point. The point is not whether or not The Falklands belongs to Britain or Argentina - but the fact that many on here are stating that the people there voted to stay as part of Britain in a referendum - as is and should be their right.

Similarly, the people of the Crimea voted in a referendum to re-join Russia - but many on here would seem to push the view that the Crimean people should not have this same right. WTF ?????

I just read one post on here where the poster does "not believe the referendum (in Crimea) has any legitimacy". I wonder what "pearls of wisdom" such doubts would be based on. ;)

Someone else posted that one of his "in-laws" is of Polish origin and he claims that an "independent referendum" would be a 3 way vote. My "in-laws" are Polish too - and their belief is that the people of The Crimea have, in the vast majority, always considered themselves to be Russian.

[George130]

I just read one post on here where the poster does "not believe the referendum (in Crimea) has any legitimacy". I wonder what "pearls of wisdom" such doubts would be based on. ;)


That's because of how it was done.

As I said do it properly not the crap that has been so far. Don't take things out of context next time thanks!

WTF

[BMKal]

That's because of how it was done.

As I said do it properly not the crap that has been so far. Don't take things out of context next time thanks!

WTF

So enlighten us - how was it done ????

You have first hand knowledge of this I take it.

[85 county]

Why not.

Arthur has made a valid point. The point is not whether or not The Falklands belongs to Britain or Argentina - but the fact that many on here are stating that the people there voted to stay as part of Britain in a referendum - as is and should be their right.

Similarly, the people of the Crimea voted in a referendum to re-join Russia - but many on here would seem to push the view that the Crimean people should not have this same right. WTF ?????

I just read one post on here where the poster does "not believe the referendum (in Crimea) has any legitimacy". I wonder what "pearls of wisdom" such doubts would be based on. ;)

I agree in part. if the majority wish to change then so be it.
How ever in the case of Crimea the referendum was done after the " invasion" which will of course forever taint the referendum.

Then there is the Why did thay vote for reunification with Russia.
There have been comments in the press about the Crimea’s stating issues like personal security crime, and corruption. Although it has been a number of years since i have been in the Crimea. I have more recently traveled though the Ukraine and onto Russia, and back again. Not one trip but a number of times. the difference between the two countries is astounding. Buy comparison the Ukraine is a mess and Russia is far more ordered and safe and more importantly an apparent rising std of living. It is these points that the Crimea voted for, and not some patriotic soviet Russian thing although that is ever present.
The myth of a strong economy and free market ideals are just that for the Crimea’s and the Ukrainians. The death days of the soviets were days of food shortages, riots escalating crime ( where there was no crime before) and not being paid for months on end. departure from the soviet empire and a move to western economics resulted NOT in the dream of a lifestyle akin to Neighbors ( and yes they did have a teenage Kyle on TV every night) but what they got was More crime, less police, rising inflation more crime, corruption, homeless people crime, and fancy food in the shops that they could not afford, and did I mention crime.

Personally I do not like the Crimea’s return to the Russian sphere. But to be quite honest the people themselves will actually be better off. And i can not blame them for that.

The same could be said for both Poland and Belorussia and the Ukraine.

[BMKal]

I agree in part. if the majority wish to change then so be it.
How ever in the case of Crimea the referendum was done after the " invasion" which will of course forever taint the referendum.

Then there is the Why did thay vote for reunification with Russia.
There have been comments in the press about the Crimea’s stating issues like personal security crime, and corruption. Although it has been a number of years since i have been in the Crimea. I have more recently traveled though the Ukraine and onto Russia, and back again. Not one trip but a number of times. the difference between the two countries is astounding. Buy comparison the Ukraine is a mess and Russia is far more ordered and safe and more importantly an apparent rising std of living. It is these points that the Crimea voted for, and not some patriotic soviet Russian thing although that is ever present.
The myth of a strong economy and free market ideals are just that for the Crimea’s and the Ukrainians. The death days of the soviets were days of food shortages, riots escalating crime ( where there was no crime before) and not being paid for months on end. departure from the soviet empire and a move to western economics resulted NOT in the dream of a lifestyle akin to Neighbors ( and yes they did have a teenage Kyle on TV every night) but what they got was More crime, less police, rising inflation more crime, corruption, homeless people crime, and fancy food in the shops that they could not afford, and did I mention crime.

Personally I do not like the Crimea’s return to the Russian sphere. But to be quite honest the people themselves will actually be better off. And i can not blame them for that.

The same could be said for both Poland and Belorussia and the Ukraine.

What you have said above is pretty much as I understand it too. I have Polish in-laws and have got some insight of things over there from them, but certainly have never been there myself and do not have anywhere near the knowledge of the region that you would have.

I didn't realize that Poland might be in similar circumstances - thought that things were looking better for them (at least that's the impression that I got from my father in law).

But everything that I have seen / heard suggests that the majority of the people in Crimea would prefer to re-join with Russia rather than remain with Ukraine - and that is probably very much for economic / standard of living type reasons, more so than "ethnicity".

Agree that the referendum will probably remain "tainted" by when it occurred - but on the other hand, would it have been allowed to occur at all had the Russians not been as involved as they were. I don't know the answer to that one - but suspect not. I'm certainly not ready to blindly accept the "American" version of events there, given their track record in similar events elsewhere in the world.

[85 county]

I didn't realize that Poland might be in similar circumstances - thought that things were looking better for them (at least that's the impression that I got from my father in law).

.


Your father inlaws views will be set from about the time he left. this is the benchmark he would be comparing with. also if he has returned he would have done so as a "tourist" with a pocket full of aussie dollars and no need to navigate the police residence laws or employment.

Having said that i was talking to a polish guy today, he is in his late 50s and he openly stated that he missed the communist days, no worries always had work had no issues like mortgage loans bills etc etc and as a young man all they had to do was party get drunk and sleep around. sediments i have herd repented in both the Ukraine and Russia.

We look at there soviet life as oppressive and limiting. but they had no worries and a hell of a lot of fun. so many look back fondly

[frantic]

BMKal i put Poland in as a simple point that depending when you look the borders and country names where vastly different. You would probably get a similar number/percentage voting to join Poland to what you got in the falklands voting to join Argentina . :D
I agree the refendum says yes but the taint is there, even if they kept control and let the UN run an unbiased vote it would more than likely be the same result. But the better outcome would be less political b.s.

[BMKal]

BMKal i put Poland in as a simple point that depending when you look the borders and country names where vastly different. You would probably get a similar number/percentage voting to join Poland to what you got in the falklands voting to join Argentina . :D
I agree the refendum says yes but the taint is there, even if they kept control and let the UN run an unbiased vote it would more than likely be the same result. But the better outcome would be less political b.s.

Yep - I agree with that. Always better if these things are done under some sort of "unbiased" supervision / observation. But that will sometimes not be the case - and if recent events elsewhere are anything to go by, you couldn't rely on the UN to be of any useful contribution to the process - so who else is there that would be acceptable to both sides.

My father-in-law has always wanted to go back to Poland again in his later life, but unfortunately health has prevented him. He gets his information from remaining family members, but obviously he is only hearing their side of the story too. He tells some interesting stories, though it has taken many years to get him to talk about his past. For some reason, he has been more comfortable in telling me some of his past than telling other members of his family - his wife and children knew very little about what he had been through before coming to Australia. Gives you a very different view on "history" when you hear some first hand experiences.

[disco man]

Some very violent and disturbing scenes on the tv showing pro Russian supporters clashing with Ukranian supporters.The report was stating that the UN and US think the Russians are responsible for the latest outbreak of violence I personally don't think the Russians are telling people to go and destroy buildings or burn things around the country.

This is a response to what has happened over the years and the political and social injustice both sides are feeling. Along with a lot of other people that have posted i don't think anybody is a 100% sure how long this will last or what the final outcome will be.

But how many people have to die to sort this mess out?

[85 county]

Some very violent and disturbing scenes on the tv showing pro Russian supporters clashing with Ukranian supporters.The report was stating that the UN and US think the Russians are responsible for the latest outbreak of violence I personally don't think the Russians are telling people to go and destroy buildings or burn things around the country.



don’t be silly of course they are, this is how it is done, this is how it has been done though out time. And its been done by everyone not just the Russians etc

[disco man]

don’t be silly of course they are, this is how it is done, this is how it has been done though out time. And its been done by everyone not just the Russians etc

Not going to argue with you on that point mate. Now Russia and Ukraine are accusing each other over the latest round of violence.With Russia now amassing 40,000 troops on the border and the sanctions imposed on Russia having little effect and the UN still making big claims and doing **** all else what happens now?

[85 county]

Not going to argue with you on that point mate. Now Russia and Ukraine are accusing each other over the latest round of violence.With Russia now amassing 40,000 troops on the border and the sanctions imposed on Russia having little effect and the UN still making big claims and doing **** all else what happens now?

which is what russia wants. now there will be a stand off to see what the west will do. and then thay will move in unless a deal is cut. if us troops move in to the ukraine thay would have to do so at the ukraines invitation. and eather the UN or NATOs nod. but not both

[101RRS]

With Russia having a veto on the UN Security Council the UN can do nothing. This Veto thing needs to change.

Garry

[85 county]

With Russia having a veto on the UN Security Council the UN can do nothing. This Veto thing needs to change.

Garry

nope thay will use NATO, like thay did in Sarajavo

[101RRS]

NATO is not the UN - they are completely different organisations. Yes you are correct that NATO may do something but as long as Russia has a Veto the UN will not.

Garry

[Offender90]

In a nutshell:
1.) West pressures Ukraine under Yanukovych to choose between Europe and Russia.
2.) Yanukovych "chooses" Russia (he didn't really have much choice, and Russia was giving Ukraine a good deal on restructuring their debt as well as subsidised gas)
3.) Euro maidan protests develop "organically" in Western Ukraine leading to the overthrow of Yanukovych government (essentially a repeat of the Orange revolution in 2003 - and for the record, there was nothing "organic" about either one of these - both were sponsored and organised by western based NGO's).
4.) Western countries under US lead jump to recognise the new regime as legitimate.
5.) Protests in Russian leaning parts of Ukraine (South and East) held against new regime.
6.) Referendum held in Crimea under "Russian protection" to re-join Russia (ok, the place was owned by Russian forces by that time - the referendum was nothing more than a formality to a forgone conclusion).
7.) West screams referendum illegitimate... And they may even have a point, had they not set the precedent in Kosovo some 15 years earlier on a more extreme case of this scenario. Note Serbia / Yugoslavia was a traditional ally of Russia.

Given all of the above, do I think Russia is "fomenting" unrest in East Ukraine? You betcha! They're following a method developed, tried, tested and perfected by the US over the last half a century. (The comments from the US are very telling by the way). Why is Russia pushing into Ukraine? As a message to the West - You push around near our borders, we'll push back.

Was or is it a predictable response from Russia? You betcha! I mean I could see it coming, let alone all the foreign policy analysts and think tanks on US payroll. You should by now be asking, "If they could see it coming, why foment unrest in Ukraine / overthrow of government in the first place?" I mean doesn't it just mean they lose face / prestige on the international scale? What could they possibly have to gain?

And that is the million dollar question so to speak (a multi billion, if not a trillion dollar question actually, but let's not get ahead of ourselves).
Painting Russia as an aggressor results in several gains:
1.) Gas supply to Europe - if Europe is not confident of continuity of Russian gas delivery, or the political strings associated with it, they'll happily accept higher prices for security of gas delivery. With development of shale gas extraction technologies, the US has the highest known reserves of gas in the world. US companies also own the shale gas extractive know-how and have been trying to get a foothold in Europe (without much success) for quite some time. Winner - US energy industry and it's shareholders, including key foreign policy decision makers. The timing of the conflict is also rather telling, considering it's been less than 18 months since the Nabucco pipeline was declared dead in the water (having lost out to South Stream).
2.) IMF and world bank get their claws into Ukraine. In about 10 to 20 years it will become a basket case entirely indebted to western, primarily US, interests. Winner - primarily US based banking conglomerates, many of which wield influence over US foreign policy decision makers. Large European powers will also benefit by gaining more access to cheap labour close to its borders.
3.) painting Russia as an aggressor makes a number of ex soviet states nervous about whether it's their turn next. Hello NATO. There is a need to modernise equipment, and many of the European NATO member states are forced to spend money on updated NATO issue equipment, the vast majority of which comes out of the US. Winner - US military industrial complex and it's shareholders, many of which make up the US foreign policy decision making body.

Unfortunately very little good will come out of this for the average Ukranian IMHO. Just my $0.02 - so much more to be said on the topic but never enough time.

[85 county]

In a nutshell:
1.) West pressures Ukraine under Yanukovych to choose between Europe and Russia.
2.) Yanukovych "chooses" Russia (he didn't really have much choice, and Russia was giving Ukraine a good deal on restructuring their debt as well as subsidised gas)
3.) Euro maidan protests develop "organically" in Western Ukraine leading to the overthrow of Yanukovych government (essentially a repeat of the Orange revolution in 2003 - and for the record, there was nothing "organic" about either one of these - both were sponsored and organised by western based NGO's).
4.) Western countries under US lead jump to recognise the new regime as legitimate.
.

wrong
Yanukovych government as spend 3 years working towards joining the EU, this required many changes like road signs banking laws etc etc.
two weeks before the big EU meeting with Yanukovych where it was expected that the Ukraine would become an associate member ( wrong word, but not a full member) he changes camp and he alone announces closser ties with Russia. within 2 days he has been voted out by his own government. Day 4 he flees to Russia. Day 9 a new government is formed day 10 the EU recognizes the new government. to date Russia has not recognized the new government

[Ferret]

3.) Euro maidan protests develop "organically" in Western Ukraine leading to the overthrow of Yanukovych government (essentially a repeat of the Orange revolution in 2003 - and for the record, there was nothing "organic" about either one of these - both were sponsored and organised by western based NGO's).

Which NGO's are involved?

[Offender90]

wrong
Yanukovych government as spend 3 years working towards joining the EU, this required many changes like road signs banking laws etc etc.
two weeks before the big EU meeting with Yanukovych where it was expected that the Ukraine would become an associate member ( wrong word, but not a full member) he changes camp and he alone announces closser ties with Russia. within 2 days he has been voted out by his own government. Day 4 he flees to Russia. Day 9 a new government is formed day 10 the EU recognizes the new government. to date Russia has not recognized the new government

Not quite - Ukraine was preparing for a European Union Association Agreement (the word you were looking for)... and the agreement is effectively a treaty for building a closer economic and political relationship with the EU, without being a member of the EU.

Now at the same time, Ukraine was being courted by Russia to become a part of its Customs Union. The Customs union is primarlily an economic treaty resulting in removal of customs tarrifs between member states. Considering that Russia is Ukraine's biggest trading partner, it makes economic sense for Ukraine to at least consider it. As a sweetener, Russia was offering serious gas discounting for Ukraine's consumption. On top of all that, AFAIK, Russia was not objecting to Ukraine entering into a simultaneous AA treaty with the EU.

Once the Customs Union membership offer was on the table, EU made it a condition of agreement that Ukraine choose one or the other, but not both.
Russia then upped the sweetener to include some $15 billion worth of bailout loans on very good terms (as compared to the deal Ukraine is now set to take via IMF / World Bank). Europe at the time was offering SFA financial assistance, and for a country on the brink of default, that's 15 billion reasons to reconsider.

As for the reasons behind Yanukovych's sudden about face, I'm not so sure, but when looking at the facts of what was on offer from EU / CIS, I wouldn't blame Ukraine for chosing the Custons Union. I'm not sure I understand the motivations to enter into the AA with EU on an exclusive basis either, knowing full well that it would be difficult for them to become an EU member without Russia's blessing, and it would be difficult for Russia to give its blessing, due to its geopolitical significance as a buffer.


Which NGO's are involved?

Very loosely speaking, the way it would work is as follows: Initially, money is funnelled through NGO's to groups opposing the government which is to be removed. NGOs by the way are organisations that are neither government owned or run, nor are they private organisations that aim to make a profit. Something about that - don't aim to make a profit... so what are their goals? If they're not making a profit, and they cost money to run, who's funding them then?... and to what end? Anyway, the NGO's are typically set up to represent some noble, above board cause, however a few staff on the NGO's payrol have nothing to do with the primary cause. They typically have resumes filled with posts providing "aid" in South or Central America, their postings often preceeding some kind of unrest. These stadd have act in a revolt / unrest liaison role, uniting smaller groups together and advising on what to organise, where, how, why and what the desired outcome is. They often also organise "spontaneous" media coverage of an event, whether it be a news crew (how it used to be done) or someone holding a mobile phone (how it's generally done today, so its often impossible to determine its legitimacy).

The footage of the event is then fed to certain news organisations, so they can frame it in a way that suits their paymaster's interests (who the paymaster is, and how /why editors are ccompliant is beyond the scope here), so that it can get traction in certain circles, and get the desired response from the public in those circles.

This then paves the way for certain countries to exert pressure on the undesirable government/outcome in any one of a number of ways. As to what's done specifically, how it's done and through which NGO's it's done varies on a case by case basis and is difficult to describe without getting into specifics. I can recommend you a number of books to read if you're interested in specific examples.

[85 county]

Not quite - Ukraine was preparing for a European Union Association Agreement (the word you were looking for)...


thanks for the detail


Very loosely speaking, the way it would work is initially, money is effectively funnelled to groups opposing the government which is deemed .

I remember when the .britishcouncil. in Russia was banned for activities out side there incorporation. ( in Russia) this is regarded by joe blogski as spying etc.
But a quick Google shows they still have a Russian site so maybe they are back or didn’t go in the end

[sashadidi]

Offender90;2126314]In a nutshell:

) Euro maidan protests develop "organically" in Western Ukraine leading to the overthrow of Yanukovych government (essentially a repeat of the Orange revolution in 2003 - and for the record, there was nothing "organic" about either one of these - both were sponsored and organised by western based NGO's).


If this were true and well maybe true to a greater or varying degree how come the SVR and did not see it coming???? and use counter tactics???, Russian intelligence services are generally pretty good so if it was as big as you imply they would have surely had a idea as well and now perhaps be producing proof... perhaps they were caught by surprise due to the unexpected staying power of the protesters and the depth of their feelings (even if initiated by these NGOS ) against a corrupt government.

Was or is it a predictable response from Russia? You betcha! I mean I could see it coming, let alone all the foreign policy analysts and think tanks on US payroll. You should by now be asking, "If they could see it coming, why foment unrest in Ukraine / overthrow of government in the first place?" I mean doesn't it just mean they lose face / prestige on the international scale? What could they possibly have to gain?


Of course they have to respond, just like any other country but maybe a little bit or prevention (e.g. helping to stamp out corruption maybe) might have helped and stopped them having to do what they did...



Unfortunately very little good will come out of this for the average Ukrainian IMHO. Just my $0.02 - so much more to be said on the topic but never enough time.


Absolutely, all the Ukrainian people are going to get are a different set of bizziness men (either russian or Ukrainian depending on what happens and what area they are in) and nothing changes

Viktor Chernomyrdin Former Russian Prime Minister was famous for saying" We wanted what's best", but got the usual....... and that applying here, ordinary ukrainian gets nothing much....

[Offender90]

I agree that there has to be a certain amount of discontent amongst the population for people to be organized to revolt.

And i have no illusions that Ukrainians were happy with their standard of living, the level of corruption within their governance, the income inequality, or any one of a number of other measures. And with good reason. What in my view is unfortunate is that people protesting in large part equate joining EU to improving their living standards to the likes of Germany, France or Britain. It hasn't worked well for Greece, hasn't worked for Spain or Italy for the same reason it won't work for the likes of Romania, Croatia or Hungary. Joining EU means surrendering control of monetary policy to the European Central Bank, which sets policy to "suit the average of the entire eurozone" in theory, and the average of its largest economies in practice (because they have the most say).

As you say, they'll just get a different set of bizziness men who will own the country's productive output. Only then will proper laws be established for the protection of property, stamping out of corruption etc. By then of course, it will be to late - they will find themselves in a perpetual rat race, fighting for the remaining scraps. Of course every now and again, a self made millionaire will emerge just to show that it is possible to make it in the land of opportunity, if only you work hard enough.

[bob10]

Closer to what Putin wants, an excuse. Bob


BBC News - Ukraine says Donetsk 'anti-terror operation' under way (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27035196)

[bob10]

Russia's GDP under threat, Bob


BBC News - Ukraine crisis could hit Russian GDP (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27031630)

[disco man]

I have been wondering what the regular person on the street in Russia thinks of what's happening in the Ukraine? I have recently seen 10,000 protesters in Moscow protesting against the Kremlin and media control. Considering a large amount of people in Russia live very poorly it must upset them to see all this money being spent on this. Or is a case of national pride and something that has to be done.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip> ... What in my view is unfortunate is that people protesting in large part equate joining EU to improving their living standards to the likes of Germany, France or Britain. It hasn't worked well for Greece, hasn't worked for Spain or Italy for the same reason it won't work for the likes of Romania, Croatia or Hungary. Joining EU means surrendering control of monetary policy to the European Central Bank, which sets policy to "suit the average of the entire eurozone" in theory, and the average of its largest economies in practice (because they have the most say).

...<snip>.Joining the European Union (EU) and joining the Euro (single currency) zone are not the same. You can be part of the EU and enjoy the freedom of movement, employment, trade and security within the EU, but you don't necessarily need to join the Eurozone and the single currency. The UK is the prime example of this.

It is also the case that the Ukraine economy probably wouldn't yet meet the criteria for Eurozone admission in any case.

[Offender90]

Joining the European Union (EU) and joining the Euro (single currency) zone are not the same. You can be part of the EU and enjoy the freedom of movement, employment, trade and security within the EU, but you don't necessarily need to join the Eurozone and the single currency. The UK is the prime example of this.

It is also the case that the Ukraine economy probably wouldn't yet meet the criteria for Eurozone admission in any case.

In theory they're different, but as far as I'm aware, all EU member states are legally bound to join the European Monetary Union (aka Eurozone). The only exceptions are UK and Denmark, which are legally exempt from joining (unless it suits them) by the original 1993 treaty, and Sweeden, which is avoiding switching to the Euro through a legal loophole made possible by the European Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) being superceeded by ERM II when the Monetary Union was first formed (in 1999). (I.e. In joining the EU, Sweeden was required to join ERM, which didn't place it under obligation to adopt the Euro after a specified amount of time. Signing up to ERM II however obliges the member to adopt the Euro after a specified amount of time (if it meets the joining criteria). Any new EU member is obliged to sign up to ERM II, which in turn obliges it to adopt the Euro, once it is deemed fit by the ECB.

That said, an Association Agreement which Ukraine was entering does not equate to EU membership, so it would be exempt from joining the Eurozone, however I doubt they would escape obligation to sign up to ERM II, which in effect is very similar to surrendering monetary policy to the ECB. I don't know the details of the AA, but I would seriously doubt they would be allowed full control of their currency relative to the Euro. ERM II requires that the member nation's currency stays within a very narrow exchange rate band compared with the Euro, effectively pegging it to the Euro and thus surrendering monetary policy to the ECB.

[sashadidi]

I have been wondering what the regular person on the street in Russia thinks of what's happening in the Ukraine? I have recently seen 10,000 protesters in Moscow protesting against the Kremlin and media control. Considering a large amount of people in Russia live very poorly it must upset them to see all this money being spent on this. Or is a case of national pride and something that has to be done.

Here a example of russian humour about this with a subtle message
&#39;Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich, I Speak Russian, Too. Please Send Troops!&#39; (http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-journalist-writes-putin-for-help/25302977.html)

[bob10]

Starting to heat up, Bob


Ukraine Enters Fight Against the Pro-Russian Uprising - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukraine-enters-fight-against-pro-russian-uprising-n81436)

[disco man]

Starting to heat up, Bob


Ukraine Enters Fight Against the Pro-Russian Uprising - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/ukraine-enters-fight-against-pro-russian-uprising-n81436)



Bloody hell Bob it looks like its not far away from kicking off. The part that troubles me is that the Ukraine has not got the military strength to fight Russia. But at the same time I understand why they want to fight. Unless the UN or US commit to the cause which I can't see happening anytime soon I cannot see a good outcome for the Ukraine, what a messy situation.

[disco man]

Here a example of russian humour about this with a subtle message
'Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich, I Speak Russian, Too. Please Send Troops!' (http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-journalist-writes-putin-for-help/25302977.html)



Some very valid points in there. Got to say he's a brave bugger.

[disco man]

Now Putin is warning of a civil war after the Kiev government sent in troops against separatists and stating that the use of force against protesters is unacceptable. I would like to know is this the trigger Russia is waiting for? What outcome will this have to the conflict?

[sashadidi]

Things are becoming not so nice , this is what happens when you stir up nationalism ,you can start to lose control and get unintended consequences
I cannot of course verify the accuracy of this report as it may be propaganda??? but There were Israeli trained groups in the protestors in Kiev and this maybe a backlash against them....
Again ordinary people on both sides are going to be affected while sadly the elites ship their money out to a compliant western country and send their children to schools out of Russia and the Ukraine including the Russian politician who stopped the USA infant adoptions and was involved in laws about foreign agents a while ago, well the USA cannot be that bad as his child goes to school there, strange action for a patriot who is stirring up the masses who will pay the price and not him...
Article here (in Russian) open in google chrome and you get a rough translation.

Депутат Ð*емезков, сын которого учится с будущими офицерами NATO, считает детей патриотами. Ð*идус (http://www.ridus.ru/news/93527)

Anyway the article:
Article: "Donetsk leaflet: Jews must register or face deportation
Fear replaced communal atmosphere in Donetsk's Jewish community as armed men handed out a leaflet Passover eve calling on Jews register their religion and property with the interim pro-Russian government or face deportation and loss of citizenship.

Continued here:Donetsk leaflet: Jews must register or face deportation - Israel News, Ynetnews (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4510688,00.html)

[bob10]

Bloody hell Bob it looks like its not far away from kicking off. The part that troubles me is that the Ukraine has not got the military strength to fight Russia. But at the same time I understand why they want to fight. Unless the UN or US commit to the cause which I can't see happening anytime soon I cannot see a good outcome for the Ukraine, what a messy situation.


A mixed up mess. There are stories of Ukrainian armoured vehicles being taken over by civilians, the crews fed & showered & sent home. Then there is this, Bob


BBC News - Deadly clashes at Ukraine port base as leaders meet (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27059321)

[Chucaro]

I just like to know what the people want, not the ones with arms, the silent people.

[disco man]

Things are becoming not so nice , this is what happens when you stir up nationalism ,you can start to lose control and get unintended consequences
I cannot of course verify the accuracy of this report as it may be propaganda??? but There were Israeli trained groups in the protestors in Kiev and this maybe a backlash against them....
Again ordinary people on both sides are going to be affected while sadly the elites ship their money out to a compliant western country and send their children to schools out of Russia and the Ukraine including the Russian politician who stopped the USA infant adoptions and was involved in laws about foreign agents a while ago, well the USA cannot be that bad as his child goes to school there, strange action for a patriot who is stirring up the masses who will pay the price and not him...
Article here (in Russian) open in google chrome and you get a rough translation.

Депутат Ð*емезков, сын которого учится с будущими офицерами NATO, считает детей патриотами. Ð*идус (http://www.ridus.ru/news/93527)

Anyway the article:
Article: "Donetsk leaflet: Jews must register or face deportation
Fear replaced communal atmosphere in Donetsk's Jewish community as armed men handed out a leaflet Passover eve calling on Jews register their religion and property with the interim pro-Russian government or face deportation and loss of citizenship.

Continued here:Donetsk leaflet: Jews must register or face deportation - Israel News, Ynetnews (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4510688,00.html)

Very ugly mess. What good is even the strongest sanctions going to achieve? Would they be enough to change the outcome of this chaos?

[disco man]

Russia has warned it will take action if it's interest's in eastern Ukraine are threatened. Kiev has stepped up it's anti-terrorism campaign and Russia has sent more APC'S. What will happen next? Any thoughts Bob.

[bob10]

There is an old saying, which I think applies to the Russians in this situation. You can't grow grass on concrete. Let's hope the poms are smart enough to stay out of this one, if indeed, trumps turn to ****. Then we have a hope of staying out. Surely our mob are smart enough not to follow the yanks into the valley of death. Bob

[Chucaro]

There is an old saying, which I think applies to the Russians in this situation. You can't grow grass on concrete. Let's hope the poms are smart enough to stay out of this one, if indeed, trumps turn to ****. Then we have a hope of staying out. Surely our mob are smart enough not to follow the yanks into the valley of death. Bob

I would not bet on that ;)

[disco man]

The scenes on the news were quite disturbing,this stand off has all the trademarks of the cold war not on the same scale but very similar in theme. The US has sent more troops to support NATO not in large numbers but enough to let Putin know the yanks are there.

Kiev are not backing down stepping up their efforts to remove Pro-Russian protesters which is making Putin make even stronger threats.It seems the peace talks last week don't have much merit.

I could be wrong and i hope i am but it seems an all out war is not far away.I can't imagine the western world would stand aside while Russia wipes out the Ukraine Defense force,but are the western powers all that keen to be apart of this conflict? But after all that has happened how can Putin back down and still save face?

Japan and China are facing off same as Argentina and the UK also the mess that is Israel and Palastine plus many other conflicts.

Makes me think how bloody good we have it here in Australia and that we are truly the lucky country.

[Chucaro]

..............................................
Makes me think how bloody good we have it here in Australia and that we are truly the lucky country.

Yes, as longs as our leaders do not start playing as do-gooders and offend some one :(
I just wonder if the arms manufacturers and dealers are behind of this mess :angel:
Regarding Argentina do not worry, they only be involved in an arm struggle if all Latin America support them and join which I do not think that will be the case.

[Offender90]

My take on what is happening, and what will happen is this:

- The protests in the East of Ukraine are being orchestrated / sponsored / encouraged by Russia - little doubt in my mind (just as the overthrow of Yanukovych was orchestrated by the West).
- The checkpoint killing of pro-Russian demonstrators is most likely the work of GRU / Russian special forces (Russia has the most to gain by riling up the local Russian population against the new regime in Kiev), just like the torture and murder of the local pro-Ukraine mayor was probably the work of Ukranian secret service or their external advisors (CIA), so they can paint the protesters as terrorists to justify a heavy handed response (which is what would be needed to bring law and order back to the region).
- problem with this is that the more heavy handedness that is employed, the more entrenched the resistance to the regime in Kiev is (remembering that the current regime was not elected, but got to power by overthrowing the elected president), and the more justified an armed incursion by Russia into Ukraine is.

Ultimately, Russia will have control over Eastern Ukraine, whether it be via a federalised Ukraine where eastern provinces are so autonomous they can sidestep central government (i.e. Kiev) decisions, or via driving into Ukraine to "protect Russian speaking population & Russian interests".

The region is too important for Russia to let it slide, so there is no question in my mind of what the outcome will be, the only question is how much it will cost them.

What we're seeing in Ukraine is a battle in public relations between Russia and the US, with Ukraine being caught in the middle as a proxy.

Russia is standing ground to protect its interests, and wants to resolve the issue peacefully (and by peacefully, I mean federalisation of Ukraine - nothing less is acceptable to Russia), I think this is the least cost option for Russia to protect its interests. (I'll discuss what I mean by "Cost" and "interests" shortly).But it has no chance of succeeding, because this is not acceptable to the US.

The US is pushing for a conflict, or at the very least to paint Russia as an expansionalist aggressor who is threatening further expansion into eastern europe (which is not going to happen by the way, at least not without being forced to do so as it is in Ukraine). I've discussed motives for the US to do this in a previous post (gas to Europe, rearming of NATO countries with US manufactured armaments, and banking / business gains from lending to Ukraine). If the US succeeds in its goals, it will trigger a new arms race across Europe and the Middle Eastern client states, and lend further weight to the push to further reduce European dependance on Russian gas. This requires a Russian incursion into Ukraine, and a strong media campaign to paint Russia as an expansionalist aggressor that threatens other parts of Europe.


As to what wil happen if Russia does invade:
From Ukraine - not a lot, Ukranian forces will most likely stand down, mostly because
a.) there isn't much loyalty amongst the military personnel to the new regime.
b.) Ukranian army is no match for the Russian Army,especially in areas with strong support for Russia from the locals
c.) Higher ranks within the military can also read what's going on, and understand that Russia will in one form or another retain infuence in East Ukraine. If individualdefence presonnel are to remain in East Ukraine, it is prudent for them not to antagonise the future decision makers in the region.

From the US - primarily a media campaign to paint Russia as an aggressor set on expansion, working behind the scenes to resupply NATO countries with more armaments (apparently not only NATO countries - Abbott appears to have comitted Aus to buy 58 more of its F-35's, which are as yet not operational, and cost more than twice as much as they were supposed to... but I'm getting sidetracked). There will also be more unilateral sanctions against Russia and / or specific Russians.

From Europe - there will be tough talk from the UK and EU to appease the powers in Washington, there may also be an increase in token sanctions, but there won't be any response that would actually hurt Russia economically, as Europe is just as dependant (if not more so) on Russia, than vice versa. Europe also doesn't have much to gain from isolating Russia - after all, they'll be paying more for US gas and armaments refurbishments at a time when governments have little capacity to spend more money.

Will be interesting to revisit this post in a year's time... I'll update "Costs" and "interests" in another post

[bob10]

Another twist in the story. Interesting to hear the Russian troops are making "runs" to the Ukrainian border, & stopping just short. Talk about intimidation. Bob


European Military Observers Taken as 'Captives' in Ukraine: Official - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/european-military-observers-taken-captives-ukraine-official-n90181)

[olbod]

In the meantime it would be nice if the cia gave us back Harold.

Well anyway.

[bob10]

In the meantime it would be nice if the cia gave us back Harold.

Well anyway.


That was China, Robert. They wanted to find his secret to attracting beautiful women. I think they ran out of rhino horn. Or not. Bob

[85 county]

My take on what is happening, and what will happen is this:

- The protests in the East of Ukraine are being orchestrated / sponsored / encouraged by Russia - little doubt in my mind

Russia yes, but by whom in Russia, this may or may not be a government thing, we have no idea what is happening behind the seems. There are many dark powers in Russia, that’s why Russia needs a strong person Like Putin to hold it all together.


(just as the overthrow of Yanukovych was orchestrated by the West).

I doubt it, the voting out of Yanukovych, came as a shock to all, as did his 180deg witch, a witch to Russia that he did not put to his government.


- The checkpoint killing of pro-Russian demonstrators is most likely the work of GRU / Russian special forces (Russia has the most to gain by riling up the local Russian population against the new regime in Kiev), just like the torture and murder of the local pro-Ukraine mayor was probably the work of Ukranian secret service or their external advisors (CIA), so they can paint the protesters as terrorists to justify a heavy handed response (which is what would be needed to bring law and order back to the region).
- problem with this is that the more heavy handedness that is employed, the more entrenched the resistance to the regime in Kiev is (remembering that the current regime was not elected, but got to power by overthrowing the elected president), and the more justified an armed incursion by Russia into Ukraine is.

I think you are over thinking things, I suspect that as there are different powers influencing events just as there are different Russian support for different pro Russian groups. His story has shown that if you support a course best to do it in a fragmented way, thus if you succeed you now have a divided set of winners, much easier to control.

The government is elected ( in the main) it was Yanukovych’s own government that kicked him out after his reversal.


Ultimately, Russia will have control over Eastern Ukraine, whether it be via a federalised Ukraine where eastern provinces are so autonomous they can sidestep central government (i.e. Kiev) decisions, or via driving into Ukraine to "protect Russian speaking population & Russian interests".

Time will tell


The region is too important for Russia to let it slide, so there is no question in my mind of what the outcome will be, the only question is how much it will cost them.

It is important in a historical sense, militarily no not really in today’s world. Economically Not so, while Gasprom and the like may benefit the government coffers will drain into the Ukraine


What we're seeing in Ukraine is a battle in public relations between Russia and the US, with Ukraine being caught in the middle as a proxy.

Not by proxy, it is Ukraines own issues. And they are not new, the ethnic Russians who were moved into the Ukraine during soviet times and the ethnic Ukraine’s themselves. It may appear recent to us because it is only now that it is in the news


Russia is standing ground to protect its interests, and wants to resolve the issue peacefully (and by peacefully, I mean federalisation of Ukraine - nothing less is acceptable to Russia), I think this is the least cost option for Russia to protect its interests. (I'll discuss what I mean by "Cost" and "interests" shortly).But it has no chance of succeeding, because this is not acceptable to the US.

Nor is it acceptable to the Ukrainians, Russians view Ukrainians as there cousins. The Ukrainian language is commonly referred to as just bad Russian. The average Russian can not understand why the Ukraine is not over joyed to reunite with Russia. The Ukrainians on the other hand view Russia and soviet Russia and now the Russian federation as invaders. WW2 they regarded the German army as liberators. Hence why there were so many Ukrainian divions in the German army. As a response the Russians call these Ukrainian Nazis/ fascists. We have seen this recently on TV being repeted.


The US is pushing for a conflict, or at the very least to paint Russia as an expansionalist aggressor who is threatening further expansion into eastern europe (which is not going to happen by the way, at least not without being forced to do so as it is in Ukraine).

I doubt that the US actually want a conflict, the rest of your sentence makes no sense. Russia IS expansionalist because it IS threading further expansion into the former CCCP states. And no one is forcing it to do this



I've discussed motives for the US to do this in a previous post (gas to Europe, rearming of NATO countries with US manufactured armaments, and banking / business gains from lending to Ukraine). If the US succeeds in its goals, it will trigger a new arms race across Europe and the Middle Eastern client states, and lend further weight to the push to further reduce European dependance on Russian gas. This requires a Russian incursion into Ukraine, and a strong media campaign to paint Russia as an expansionalist aggressor that threatens other parts of Europe.

Mate what a load of bollics. NATO is not rearming Ver the US. They are and have developed there own systems. Soo that’s a non starter.
Banking well that’s the world bank and not the US
And the US is not reliant on Russian Gas, parts of Europe are, mainly former CCCP states. So it Russia takes these states back they will be drying up there own pocket. Germany has options which were instigated the last time Russia cut the gas off.



As to what will happen if Russia does invade:
From Ukraine - not a lot, Ukrainian forces will most likely stand down, mostly because
a.) there isn't much loyalty amongst the military personnel to the new regime.

Not true, the Ukraine army has been cutting its own track and has been moving closer to Nato Forms over the last decade. There is also a ethic form in the Ukraine army. IE you need to be a Ukrainian citizen to join there armed forces. The Russians in the Ukraine have and do not recognise the Ukraine, refuse to get Ukraine passports citizenship etc how ever the Russian government has given them Russian passports citizenship etc etc.


b.) Ukrainian army is no match for the Russian Army, especially in areas with strong support for Russia from the locals

May be, the Russian army is bigger thus they will have support after a bit of ethic cleansing.


c.) Higher ranks within the military can also read what's going on, and understand that Russia will in one form or another retain infuence in East Ukraine. If individualdefence presonnel are to remain in East Ukraine, it is prudent for them not to antagonise the future decision makers in the region.

True, but the die is already cast. The people in position have already been sounded out. I suspect that the response ( to Russian) was not as favourable as they would have hoped. If it was then the Russians would already be there or there would have been an over though of the government to a pro Russian government.


From the US - primarily a media campaign to paint Russia as an aggressor set on expansion

But they are, Crimea, Georgia, Kerkistan, chechia. What else do you need to know?
As for a media campaign, LOL you should read the Russian press



, working behind the scenes to resupply NATO countries with more armaments (apparently not only NATO countries - Abbott appears to have comitted Aus to buy 58 more of its F-35's, which are as yet not operational, and cost more than twice as much as they were supposed to... but I'm getting sidetracked). There will also be more unilateral sanctions against Russia and / or specific Russians.

And why not, we have been lax in our defence spending, 25 year old landies. Second-hand F111s Tanks with ww2 aircraft motors. Since 1990 there has been very little spending on defence by Australia and other countries. Since the cold war was over why bother. But now the Bear has risen from the ashes we need to shake our tail real quick.


From Europe - there will be tough talk from the UK and EU to appease the powers in Washington,

Do you really think that the US has that much influence?? The EU will do what the EU think is best since Russia is Like just next-door. The US is free to flap off as they wish with impunity.


there may also be an increase in token sanctions, but there won't be any response that would actually hurt Russia economically, as Europe is just as dependant (if not more so) on Russia, than vice versa. Europe also doesn't have much to gain from isolating Russia - after all, they'll be paying more for US gas and armaments refurbishments at a time when governments have little capacity to spend more money.

Money is never an issue in war, so that’s a non starter. But I have one word for you. Chamberlin.



Will be interesting to revisit this post in a year's time... I'll update "Costs" and "interests" in another post

[Chucaro]

I just wonder if the west is not pushing to much Putin to a corner in which he will not have any room to negotiate in a proud manner. :(

[85 county]

I just wonder if the west is not pushing to much Putin to a corner in which he will not have any room to negotiate in a proud manner. :(

Mate, he knows what he is doing.
you should read his speech's

starting with his 07 Munich
excerpt

" “The USA are not developing strategic weapons but Russia is. Will Russia use force in the future if it is not sanctioned by the UN? Russia is developing a system of strategic weapons”.

Fine question, excellent! I am very grateful to you for this question. It will give me the opportunity to talk about the essence of what is happening. What are we indebted to in the past decades if there was a stand-off between two superpowers and two systems but nevertheless a big war did not take place? We are indebted to the balance of powers between these two superpowers. There was an equilibrium and a fear of mutual destruction. And in those days one party was afraid to make an extra step without consulting the other. And this was certainly a fragile peace and a frightening one. But as we see today, it was reliable enough. Today, it seems that the peace is not so reliable."

[Chucaro]

Mate, he knows what he is doing.
you should read his speech's .................................................. ............................

I do not have any doubt about it, I am worry about the others if they know how far to go :(

[bob10]

Perhaps this is the reason Putin is holding back, Bob


BBC News - How does Europe wean itself off Russian gas? (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27239734)

[sashadidi]

Perhaps this is the reason Putin is holding back, Bob


BBC News - How does Europe wean itself off Russian gas? (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27239734)

Slightly off topic but Russia need to develop a mercantile type economy independent from oil as the times are a changing, Putin would be advised to look inwards as well as outwards I think if even one quarter of this is true his world is going to change.....
Russia needs US$ 100 per barrel to balance the books now and has pension/economic problems coming


Solar power has won the global argument. Photovoltaic energy is already so cheap that it competes with oil, diesel and liquefied natural gas in much of Asia without subsidies.
Roughly 29pc of electricity capacity added in America last year came from solar, rising to 100pc even in Massachusetts and Vermont. "More solar has been installed in the US in the past 18 months than in 30 years," says the US Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA). California's subsidy pot is drying up but new solar has hardly missed a beat.
Continues:
Global solar dominance in sight as science trumps fossil fuels - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10755598/Global-solar-dominance-in-sight-as-science-trumps-fossil-fuels.html)

[sashadidi]

I do not have any doubt about it, I am worry about the others if they know how far to go :(

Chucaro there are so many agendas/interests (meaning money) inside Russia as well that nobody can really control totally and that includes the president.....

[85 county]

Slightly off topic but Russia need to develop a mercantile type economy independent from oil as the times are a changing, Putin would be advised to look inwards as well as outwards I think if even one quarter of this is true his world is going to change.....
Russia needs US$ 100 per barrel to balance the books now and has pension/economic problems coming


russia get every thing over $55 a barrel. so the higher the price the less thay have to sell.

solur panels in russia, nope not an option. heating is there bigest energy consuption and in winter when there is only sun for a few hours of the day. add to that there is NO wind in winter

[bob10]

Interesting to see how far this will go, Bob.


Dozens Killed In Ukraine Violence - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/dozens-killed-ukraine-violence-n96356)

[Offender90]

Which NGO's are involved?

I came across a well referenced article on the US machinations behind the Coup in Ukraine, including some of the NGO's involved, and what their involvement was.

Keep in mind that the known mechanisms are probably a very small proportion of the full picture of what's going on.

Meet the Americans Who Put Together the Coup in Kiev (http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22758-meet-the-americans-who-put-together-the-coup-in-kiev)


[snip]... I doubt that the US actually want a conflict, the rest of your sentence makes no sense. Russia IS expansionalist because it IS threading further expansion into the former CCCP states. And no one is forcing it to do this... [snip]

That's all right, parts of your post doesn't make sense to me either. ;) I understand where you're coming from and what you're trying to say for the most part tho. - Once upon a time, I would even have agreed with some of it. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to counter your arguements so we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that, yes?

[sashadidi]

Offender there lots of forces in play, even israelis and Nazis together??
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114
If the NGOs are involved they were extremely lucky that they had a very involved local population.....who maybe are sick of the corruption etc, they would not have stayed unless they believed... but as we know the same old stuff will happen
and Ivan Ivanovitch gets nothing again.

[Peppercorn]

Seriously fella's, I have read a LOT about this whole Ukraine thing and what I'm about to tell you may alarm you to the point where you may think I'm full of crap! But, I ASSURE you I'm telling the complete truth!
(Firstly, I am NOT a Commie, or even a Leftie! Indeed i am right of centre politically but I've researched this Ukraine uprising thoroughly)

The entire coup is the handiwork of the US thru it's CIA and NGO's sticking their noses where no one in the world wants them to be! they have invested $5 Billion in the destabilisation of Ukraine.

Our media is disgusting with their handling of the reporting of what has been happening in Ukraine.
Allow me to tell you to totally ignore all US News Outlets! They are simply arms of the US Govt propaganda dept.
The BBC is not much better!

This has all the earmarks of being the beginnings of WW3 or, at the very least, our children's own Vietnam! After all, everyone should have their own Vietnam! (sarcasm)

The US is picking this fight and are trying to goad Putin into sending his military into Ukraine so, the US can have their cassus belli.
Just like they created in the Gulf of Tonkin (Vietnam) Iraq, Libya, ongoing in Venezuela, Afghanistan, presently in Nth Africa, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Iran, etc etc etc.

I am ashamed that my country blindly follows this outlaw nation with way too much innocent blood on it's hands.
The media reporting has been disgusting to say the least! The Nazi thugs have taken over Ukraine and killing innocent civilians not Russian terrorists as has been reported.
Rather than me babbling on here, read my reports, as well as choice articles, doco's and opinion pieces on my website here For the Fans | Fans of Satire, Political Incorrectness & Truth (http://www.for-the-fans.com)

[Chucaro]

Peppercorn I agree with many of your points.
Unfortunately those that do not agree with Uncle Sam policies and behvior are labeled communists. It is very familiar to me :D

[Chucaro]

An interesting view and IMO very close to the truth :(

Ukraine and 21st Century Neo-Fascism: Left-Wing Support for Imperialism and White Supremacy (http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-21st-century-neo-fascism-left-wing-support-for-imperialism-and-white-supremacy/5376376)

[Offender90]

There seems to be another country in sore need of US liberalisation, where freedom of speech is... how shall I put it? - non existent?

Saudi blogger gets 10 years and 1,000 lashes - Middle East - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/05/saudi-blogger-gets-10-years-1000-lashes-20145825916565359.html)

Don't see much activity there (or publicity for that matter)... Wonder why?

[BMKal]

There seems to be another country in sore need of US liberalisation, where freedom of speech is... how shall I put it? - non existent?

Saudi blogger gets 10 years and 1,000 lashes - Middle East - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/05/saudi-blogger-gets-10-years-1000-lashes-20145825916565359.html)

Don't see much activity there (or publicity for that matter)... Wonder why?

Not to mention what's going on a bit closer to home.

Brunei is in the process of implementing Sharia Law at the moment. Penalties are to include cutting off limbs for some crimes, and stoning to death for some others.

And here was me thinking that they were a "civilized" country. :censored:

BBC News - Stars boycott Beverly Hills Hotel over Brunei 'sharia' (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27303085)

[DiscoMick]

I was never game to leave the Brunei Airport when I passed through there.
I remember being stuck there for 4 hours. In the terminal there were 5 x TVs showing Islamic scholars telling us how to live. As far as I could tell, not a single person was watching them. Over in the corner was one smaller screen showing soccer. About a hundred people were crowded around it. Said a lot, really.

[sashadidi]

Seriously fella's, I have read a LOT about this whole Ukraine thing and what I'm about to tell you may alarm you to the point where you may think I'm full of crap! But, I ASSURE you I'm telling the complete truth!
[/url] The USA and NAto do not have the stomach for a fight that is obvious by their weak actions on weak grounds. Just for interest do you read and watch the Russian media as well in Russian? you might be surprised how some of the stuff you read has come from there and some of disproved even by russians, there is plenty wrong on both sides and lots of sophisticated plays and side effects........ For Instance the Crimean Tartars are not having a easy time from both sides if this article is true, what have they done so bad (offended one side or the other?)given their long history in the area known as the Crimea?? In russian:
http://slon.ru/russia/my_polveka_borolis_za_vozvrashchenie_na_rodinu_a_v ernulis_v_sovetskiy_soyuz-1094487.xhtml

[sashadidi]

A interesting development with President Putin agreeing to postpone the referendum to a later date, the game continues....
Âåñòè.Ru: Ïóòèí ïîïðîñèë ïåðåíåñòè ðåôåðåíäóì íà þãî-âîñòîêå Óêðàèíû (http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=597202&cid=1)

[85 county]

The USA and NAto do not have the stomach for a fight that is obvious by their weak actions on weak grounds. Just for interest do you read and watch the Russian media as well in Russian? you might be surprised how some of the stuff you read has come from there and some of disproved even by russians, there is plenty wrong on both sides and lots of sophisticated plays and side effects........ For Instance the Crimean Tartars are not having a easy time from both sides if this article is true, what have they done so bad (offended one side or the other?)given their long history in the area known as the Crimea?? In russian:
Мустафа Джемилев: «Мы полвека боролись за возвращение на родину, а вернулись в Советский Союз» - Ð*оссия - Slon.ru (http://slon.ru/russia/my_polveka_borolis_za_vozvrashchenie_na_rodinu_a_v ernulis_v_sovetskiy_soyuz-1094487.xhtml)

Mate why are you posting in Russian. No one can read them and if they use a translator it will give the wrong message. Russian is such a imprecise language.

As for the tattars, well they did invade Russia! What 500 years ago? they did sell the Slav's into slavery to the Muslims. And they did join with the Ukrainians to kick out the poles and then the Russians like 400 years ago. etc and Starlin did accuse them of providing the Nazis with information. so they should all be cleansed. MATE all Russians HATE tattars. Literal translation, dirty sneaky black asses

[sashadidi]

[COLOR=black]Mate why are you posting in Russian. No one can read them and if they use a translator it will give the wrong message. Russian is such a imprecise language. My Apologies, I meant to say open in google chrome and it will get translated into English (sometimes badly), the point being some of the rumours about this situation that people have read have come from the russian press but later disproved by russians and as you know we cannot believe a lot of what is written from both sides. Yep I know the term you are referring to re the tartars!!! Anyway lets see what has happened in a years time we will know a lot more and it may surprise us...

[Peppercorn]

Hi sashadidi. Yes, I am well aware that I reading Russian News. Compared to the US News I find it quite fitting and accurate.

Russian News is not the only news I read though. I have many sites that I frequent daily. With this whole Ukraine thing I DO realise it is complicated however, I also realise that if Russia was to do in Mexico what the US has done to them in Ukraine, we'd be hearing Obama and Kerry bleating from the Bath Houses of Washington!

Let's be honest here. Putin took Crimea without a shot fired. Russia has been there since Catherine the Great. They also had a treaty with Ukraine where they were allowed 25,000 troops there at any time. Putin was in his right to take hold of Crimea under the circumstances.

The US is NOT interested in Ukraine or Ukrainians. All they are interested in is putting NATO bases there. Every Country where the US has been are all still experiencing civil war! there are more Car Bombs in Iraq per year than there are car crashes!
Do you know that the US promised Gorbachev that they would not increase NATO bases past German borders?? They lied!

All the US is doing is forcing Russia into closer ties with China and Iran and, the Bric nations. (India, Brazil, China)

As well, do you guys know that the US SHip in the Black Sea was 'buzzed' by a Russian Jet a few weeks back? It was reported!
Well, there are reports from a port near Odessa that the entire electrical defence systems on the ship were knocked out!

As well, it was reported last week that all US planes on the West Coast of the US were grounded for an hour. It was blamed on a computer glitch and then finally, a few days later, on a U2 flying over LAX which overloaded the radar computers.
It has been suggested by 'learned people' that it wasn't the U2 at all but, a Russian Bomber who, flew into US Airspace scaring the crap out of them. The Russians are flexing their muscles and muscles they have!

This is the concern! The US do NOT have the brains to know when to stop and the Russians feel it is well within their right to use Atomic weapons to defend Mother Russia. This could get way out of control quickly!

[bob10]

Hi sashadidi. Yes, I am well aware that I reading Russian News. Compared to the US News I find it quite fitting and accurate.

Russian News is not the only news I read though. I have many sites that I frequent daily. With this whole Ukraine thing I DO realise it is complicated however, I also realise that if Russia was to do in Mexico what the US has done to them in Ukraine, we'd be hearing Obama and Kerry bleating from the Bath Houses of Washington!

Let's be honest here. Putin took Crimea without a shot fired. Russia has been there since Catherine the Great. They also had a treaty with Ukraine where they were allowed 25,000 troops there at any time. Putin was in his right to take hold of Crimea under the circumstances.

The US is NOT interested in Ukraine or Ukrainians. All they are interested in is putting NATO bases there. Every Country where the US has been are all still experiencing civil war! there are more Car Bombs in Iraq per year than there are car crashes!
Do you know that the US promised Gorbachev that they would not increase NATO bases past German borders?? They lied!

All the US is doing is forcing Russia into closer ties with China and Iran and, the Bric nations. (India, Brazil, China)

As well, do you guys know that the US SHip in the Black Sea was 'buzzed' by a Russian Jet a few weeks back? It was reported!
Well, there are reports from a port near Odessa that the entire electrical defence systems on the ship were knocked out!

As well, it was reported last week that all US planes on the West Coast of the US were grounded for an hour. It was blamed on a computer glitch and then finally, a few days later, on a U2 flying over LAX which overloaded the radar computers.
It has been suggested by 'learned people' that it wasn't the U2 at all but, a Russian Bomber who, flew into US Airspace scaring the crap out of them. The Russians are flexing their muscles and muscles they have!

This is the concern! The US do NOT have the brains to know when to stop and the Russians feel it is well within their right to use Atomic weapons to defend Mother Russia. This could get way out of control quickly!


You could get a job with Walt Disney, writing scripts for fantasyland. Whatever you are on, get off it , for your healths sake. Bob

[Chucaro]

You could get a job with Walt Disney, writing scripts for fantasyland. Whatever you are on, get off it , for your healths sake. Bob

Not so sure Bob, I agree with many things that he said but then again I lived and know the influence of USA in Central and South America, thing that is known by the majority of the Australians by what the local press is allowed to say or their selective sources of news.
Perhaps "playing the ball and not the man" will be appropriated to dispute his point of view :)

[85 county]

Hi sashadidi. Yes, I am well aware that I reading Russian News. Compared to the US News I find it quite fitting and accurate.

!
Can you read Russian? If not then you are reading Russian English news, produced for the English, IE propaganda

[85 county]

You could get a job with Walt Disney, writing scripts for fantasyland. Whatever you are on, get off it , for your healths sake. Bob

actualy Bob, i would be saying DOOODDOOODDOOODDOOODDOO

[bob10]

Not so sure Bob, I agree with many things that he said but then again I lived and know the influence of USA in Central and South America, thing that is known by the majority of the Australians by what the local press is allowed to say or their selective sources of news.
Perhaps "playing the ball and not the man" will be appropriated to dispute his point of view :)


Sorry Arthur, all my years of rugby have conditioned me to play the man with the ball. I just couldn't help that outburst. Perhaps it was the Aliens who took flight MH370 that are to blame. I'll try to keep my mind on the game. :angel: :p

[Peppercorn]

Sorry Arthur, all my years of rugby have conditioned me to play the man with the ball. I just couldn't help that outburst. Perhaps it was the Aliens who took flight MH370 that are to blame. I'll try to keep my mind on the game. :angel: :p

Hey Bob I see you're pretty active on here and both you and I have similar interests believe it or not.

I also don't mind you playing the man and not the ball as I'm a rabid Souths fan for the past 50 years and have seen the best and worse of the game. I can take it.

But, what I would prefer for the sake of clarity and honesty is that you show me where I'm wrong? Otherwise, you just got sent off mate.


AND for the poster who challenged me with the claim that I was reading Propaganda, what the hell do you think you're reading and listening to??? 100% accurate honesty??

Get real!! Look at what we were told re Iraq.........bull****! Look what we were told re Libya...........100% bull****. Look what we were told re Vietnam...........more bull****! "The Gulf of Tonkin" incident which, was the reason (cassus belli) for the US's bombing campaign against the North is now accepted fact that it NEVER even happened!
So, if you're going to throw propaganda at me you better have something better than Channel 9 News or, any News Company Production. The worlds media is now owned by 5 giant Corporations.

[bob10]

Hey Bob I see you're pretty active on here and both you and I have similar interests believe it or not.

I also don't mind you playing the man and not the ball as I'm a rabid Souths fan for the past 50 years and have seen the best and worse of the game. I can take it.

But, what I would prefer for the sake of clarity and honesty is that you show me where I'm wrong? Otherwise, you just got sent off mate.


AND for the poster who challenged me with the claim that I was reading Propaganda, what the hell do you think you're reading and listening to??? 100% accurate honesty??

Get real!! Look at what we were told re Iraq.........bull****! Look what we were told re Libya...........100% bull****. Look what we were told re Vietnam...........more bull****! "The Gulf of Tonkin" incident which, was the reason (cassus belli) for the US's bombing campaign against the North is now accepted fact that it NEVER even happened!
So, if you're going to throw propaganda at me you better have something better than Channel 9 News or, any News Company Production. The worlds media is now owned by 5 giant Corporations.


Glad to see we have similar interests, and go the Rabbits. You sound like a passionate man. Good. Me too. Give me some time to prepare a proper response, I do not want to talk off the top of my head. Don't forget, one man's propaganda, is another mans truth. Mr Putin is driven by the desire to stay in power , and he has recognised the Soviet peoples desire to go back to the days they felt they had that power. He is manipulating people like you, playing to their egos, in a dangerous game. The USA has done that to their citizens for years. Between the pair of you homicidal maniacs, you may have your wish. BOOM BOOM, ONE FLASH AND YOU ARE ASH! Let's hope you blow only each other up, then the rest of the World can get on with life. Get over yourselves, please. Bob

[85 county]

AND for the poster who challenged me with the claim that I was reading Propaganda, what the hell do you think you're reading and listening to??? 100% accurate honesty??

.

Honesty, well going by your response i guess the answer to my question is " NO", you can not read Russian.
you also missed my point, the Russian press in Russian news papers written in Russian. is quite different to what you have access to in English. IE what is produced in English is for your consumption,Not local consumption and it looks like you have swallowed it all hook line and sinker.

[Peppercorn]

RT News is based in the US. It is produced in english. They have many shows in english and many english speaking announcers. There are also Russian english speaking presenters like ??? Schevednaze. I AM aware they are a Russian News Service but, I am also aware that CNN, FOX, MSM, ets are a US News service.

As I said in my original post I read many sites not just RT.
For instance, try Information Clearing House
Dr Paul Craig Roberts
Gerald Celente
Antiwar.com

I read extensively as one thing I have on my life is 'Time!'

Facts so far.
Fact 1: The US have spent $5 Billion destabilising Ukraine! (Victoria Nuland Dec 2013 speech)
Fact 2: The Svoboda Party have taken control of "The Interior Ministry (Police), The Army, and the Media" The Svoboda Party are Nazi'z and hold as their hero Stephen Bandera who fought with Hitler during WW2
Fact 3: Both the US and the EU outlawed the Svoboda Party last year as being a radical Nationalistic Right Wing Organisation. But, now are financing and supporting them.

I could go on but if you're interested you can look all that up and then realise that I'm not quite "out there" as some of you think.

[bob10]

I thought for a time on something to post to bring this topic down to its bare bones. Then I found one. From Malaysia, of all places. Now, I'm sure it can be pulled to pieces by angry people, but I more or less agree with it. Bob


Paying the price for glorifying Putin - Columnist - New Straits Times (http://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnist/paying-the-price-for-glorifying-putin-1.589320)

[85 county]

I thought for a time on something to post to bring this topic down to its bare bones. Then I found one. From Malaysia, of all places. Now, I'm sure it can be pulled to pieces by angry people, but I more or less agree with it. Bob


Paying the price for glorifying Putin - Columnist - New Straits Times (http://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnist/paying-the-price-for-glorifying-putin-1.589320)

Over simplified, but quite correct in the fact about how Russia felt about losing it empire.
The average Russian believes that the Ukraine is and always has been apart of Russia, Ukrainians believe soviet Russians were the invader and welcomed the Germans as liberators
from 1800 Russian army has rolled over the Ukraine 5 times. sheesh Germany has only invaded France 3 times and France Germany twice

[85 county]

RT News is based in the US. It is produced in english. They have many shows in english and many english speaking announcers. There are also Russian english speaking presenters like ??? Schevednaze. I AM aware they are a Russian News Service but, I am also aware that CNN, FOX, MSM, ets are a US News service.

Yes but CNN FOX MSM etc are not directly funded by Obama. Where RT news I directly funded by the FSB

As I said in my original post I read many sites not just RT.
For instance, try Information Clearing House
Dr Paul Craig Roberts

A nutter who is making a lot of money

Gerald Celente = Pessimism porn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Antiwar.com do not even need to comment

I read extensively as one thing I have on my life is 'Time!',
to much apparently

Facts so far.
Fact 1: The US have spent $5 Billion destabilising Ukraine! (Victoria Nuland Dec 2013 speech)

Since 1991, a small percentage of what was loaned to Russia. So 5 billion has been loaned to the Ukraine, most of it my the world bank. So that equals a little over 20 million a year. Sure pocket change!!

Fact 2: The Svoboda Party have taken control of "The Interior Ministry (Police), The Army, and the Media" The Svoboda Party are Nazi'z and hold as their hero Stephen Bandera who fought with Hitler during WW2

And why not the Ukrainians regard the soviet Russian troops as invaders. So why not all any one and every one a Nazi, the Russians love to call everyone a Nazi or a fascist. Means nothing.

Fact 3: Both the US and the EU outlawed the Svoboda Party last year as being a radical Nationalistic Right Wing Organization
. What a load of rubbish. How can the EU and US which has no legal oversight in the Ukraine make a Ukrainian political party illegal?? Since I think they were the major opposition party last elections 2012

But, now are financing and supporting them.
No I think the EU is supporting the Ukraine government, not the government opposition

I could go on but if you're interested you can look all that up and then realise that I'm not quite "out there" as some of you think

Defiantly not as you think.

I ask again do you speak Russian or Ukraine??

[Peppercorn]

Believe what you want. I'm not going to bother with your absolute ridiculous answers. I have no interest in having a fight here.

However, you will believe your US washed news at your own (or children's) peril.

Ask yourself this, How many countries have the US destabilised, outright invaded, or, fueled coups? Do you need the list?
Everywhere they have been there is ongoing civil war! There are more car bombs than car accidents in Iraq now and, the Taliban has captured over half of the country.
But, they want to spread democracy! What a load of.......
There is now a "Stanford University Study" that has been released that has estimates that the US has killed 25-30 million people since the 2nd World War. I don't need to be able to speak Russian or Ukrainian to understand that.
Where is our decency? When does it kick in? As long as we have diesel for our Landies is everything OK?

We have been systematically brain washed for US interests our entire lives. But, the world has changed mate yet you have failed to notice.

Even our ex PM Malcolm Frasier made international headlines a few weeks back when he suggested that we cut ties to the US. Why did he write that???

Because the US Military Complex are leading us into WW3 not Putin.

I'll leave you with this, it'll suit.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[85 county]

Believe what you want. I'm not going to bother with your absolute ridiculous answers. I have no interest in having a fight here.

However, you will believe your US washed news at your own (or children's) peril.


Because the US Military Complex are leading us into WW3 not Putin.

I'll leave you with this, it'll suit.
http://www.for-the-fans.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/russia-wants-war.jpg

Mate, firstly and with out thinking about it to much, no US bases in Norway or Thailand. so in short you map is Bollicks

[Chucaro]

Mate, firstly and with out thinking about it to much, no US bases in Norway or Thailand. so in short you map is Bollicks

:confused: what about the 426 ABS in Stavanger is situated on the Southwestern coast of Norway (in the county of Rogaland); 600km from Oslo?

[Chucaro]

Many people talk about Putin as the baddy but when you look at the mob in the other side of the fence I start wonder who are the bads....

Yuri Odarchenko the governor of Ukraine’s southern Kherson region trampled on the feelings of many veterans and desecrated the memory of all those who perished during the war against Nazi Germany by calling Hitler a “liberator.” :mad:
“Those [Soviet] aggressors justified their capture not only by their desire to seize others’ territory and enslave the people, but they also put forward slogans about liberating nations and people that inhabit the lands which Hitler hoped to capture, if you read history books, we have a number of documentaries on this, then we see that he [Hitler] first of all put forward a slogan of liberating people from the communist yoke, and liberating people from the tyrant Stalin,”
Nice fellow :angel:

[bob10]

Over simplified, but quite correct in the fact about how Russia felt about losing it empire.
The average Russian believes that the Ukraine is and always has been apart of Russia, Ukrainians believe soviet Russians were the invader and welcomed the Germans as liberators
from 1800 Russian army has rolled over the Ukraine 5 times. sheesh Germany has only invaded France 3 times and France Germany twice


The more I think about this, the more it looks like Germany, 1930-33. Putin has a massive ego, and like Hitler, is starting to believe his own propaganda. At the moment, it seems to be all about Putin. Centre stage. Some misguided Russians are clinging to his coat tails, dreaming of past "glories" . Chernoble, gulags, KGB, murder squads, poverty, to name a few. The more I see of this, the more I think Europeans are barking mad. Some posts here confirm that. Bob

[85 county]

:confused: what about the 426 ABS in Stavanger is situated on the Southwestern coast of Norway (in the county of Rogaland); 600km from Oslo?

Wrong

check it out, the air force base is Norwegian, with a joint NATO. usaf 426 supply American staff on attachment for Nato operations. I think if you look into it there are more POMS, frogs and until recently Syrians based there.

[85 county]

The more I think about this, the more it looks like Germany, 1930-33. Putin has a massive ego, and like Hitler, is starting to believe his own propaganda. At the moment, it seems to be all about Putin. Centre stage. Some misguided Russians are clinging to his coat tails, dreaming of past "glories" . Chernoble, gulags, KGB, murder squads, poverty, to name a few. The more I see of this, the more I think Europeans are barking mad. Some posts here confirm that. Bob

Close
Putin and his mates of his generation, who hold the strings of power, grew up in a time when they believed Russia was great, powerful and respected/ feared by the west.
A bit like Germany before ww1, they had invaded Austria and won, invaded France and won, had a great economy. And were building up there navy and army to rival the poms.

Late 80s the Russian economy went to the pack, this is the period of queuing for food etc. prior to this Russia and Russians had a great time. But the blame for this was placed on defense spending and the west. They accepted no responsibility for there own actions. Then came the defaults’ and the collapse of communism, a drumk President and the shrinkage of the CCCP. The soviet Russians has failed. They were embarrassed ashamed and blamed everyone but themselves. Putin promised to restore Russian glory on a wave of hate

After Germany was sucked into ww1 and the treaty of verciles( spelling) Germany went into a economic depression. The Germans fractured with democratic, communists, anocists and fascists all competing for power. But the germens blamed everyone else but themselfs, the communists and the Jews mainly The fascists won on a promise to restore Germany to glory on a wave of hate.

Russia is restoring its empire on the basis of nationality. IE where Russian live it must be Russia.

Germany started restoring its empire by claiming back the German speaking lands,

Will Russia invade a country where a minority speaks Russian
Germany invaded Poland

[DiscoMick]

Yep, I agree. Putin is following a well-worn path which included Hitler. Russian nationalism will lead to expansion, just as the Chinese are expanding in Asia and Africa. How long before India starts to flex its muscles against its neighbours? And don't forget Brazil. Meanwhile, a weakened America is unwilling, and possibly unable, to effectively confront the Russian and Chinese expansions. When the elephants stampede, the wilderbeast run for cover.

[Peppercorn]

Yea, Putin started all this! I'm brainwashed.
This is the latest post from US Presidential Candidate Ron Paul.

In several eastern Ukrainian towns over the past week, the military opened fire on its own citizens. Dozens may have been killed in the violence. Although the US government generally condemns a country’s use of military force against its own population, especially if they are unarmed protesters, this time the US administration blamed the victims. After as many as 20 unarmed protesters were killed on the May 9th holiday in Ukraine, the State Department spokesman said “we condemn the outbreak of violence caused by pro-Russia separatists.”
Why are people protesting in eastern Ukraine? Because they do not believe the government that came to power after the US-backed uprising in February is legitimate. They do not recognize the authority of an unelected president and prime minister. The US sees this as a Russian-sponsored destabilization effort, but is it so hard to understand that the people in Ukraine may be annoyed with the US and EU for their involvement in regime change in their country? Would we be so willing to accept an unelected government in Washington put in place with the backing of the Chinese and Iranians?

The US State Department provided much assistance earlier this year to those involved in the effort to overthrow the Ukrainian government. The US warned the Ukrainian government at the time not to take any action against those in the streets, even as they engaged in violence and occupied government buildings. But now that those former protesters have come to power, the US takes a different view of protest. Now they give full support to the bloody crackdown against protesters in the east. The State Department spokesperson said last week: “We continue to call for groups who have jeopardized public order by taking up arms and seizing public buildings in violation of Ukrainian law to disarm and leave the buildings they have seized.” This is the opposite of what they said in February. Do they think the rest of the world does not see this hypocrisy?

The residents of eastern Ukraine have long been closer to Russia than to the US and EU. In fact, that part of Ukraine had been a part of Russia. After February’s regime change, officials in the east announced that they would hold referenda to see whether the population wanted autonomy from the US-backed government in Kiev. The US demanded that Russian President Putin stop eastern Ukraine from voting on autonomy, and last week the Russian president did just that: he said that the vote should not be held as scheduled. The eastern Ukrainians ignored him and said they would hold the vote anyway. So much for the US claims that Russia controls the opposition in Ukraine.

Even though the Russian president followed US demands and urged the eastern Ukrainians to hold off on the vote, the US State Department announced that the US would apply additional sanctions on Russia if the vote is held! Does this make any sense?

The real question is why the US government is involved in Ukraine in the first place. We are broke. We cannot even afford to fix our own economy. Yet we want to run Ukraine? Does it really matter who Ukrainians elect to represent them? Is it really a national security matter worth risking a nuclear war with Russia whether Ukraine votes for more regional autonomy and a weaker central government? Isn’t that how the United States was originally conceived?

Has the arrogance of the US administration, thinking they should run the world, driven us to the brink of another major war in Europe? Let us hope they will stop this dangerous game and come to their senses. I say let’s have no war for Ukraine!


Now, have a look at this The Road to World War 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HP7L8bw5QF4)

[85 county]

Many people talk about Putin as the baddy but when you look at the mob in the other side of the fence I start wonder who are the bads....

Yuri Odarchenko the governor of Ukraine’s southern Kherson region trampled on the feelings of many veterans and desecrated the memory of all those who perished during the war against Nazi Germany by calling Hitler a “liberator.”
“Those [Soviet] aggressors justified their capture not only by their desire to seize others’ territory and enslave the people, but they also put forward slogans about liberating nations and people that inhabit the lands which Hitler hoped to capture, if you read history books, we have a number of documentaries on this, then we see that he [Hitler] first of all put forward a slogan of liberating people from the communist yoke, and liberating people from the tyrant Stalin,”
Nice fellow

Chucaro, did you actually read this?? Or did you not get past the Hitler bit.


Russia claimed the Ukraine after they kicked Napoleon out of Russia.
The Zar didn’t ask the Ukrainians what they wanted, the Russians just kept the place because they were broke after defeating Napoleon and it would make a good buffer zone should any other forces try to invade Russia again ( looking at Austria)
Austria also had a good chunk of the Ukraine as well as Poland was divided between Russia and Austria.
Congress of Vienna in 1815.

The Ukrainians did try a few times to get there sovernty back but failed
Now we have the Austro hungry Ukrainians and the Russian Ukrainians. The Russian Ukrainians wanted the austro hungry empire to take all of the Ukraine, since the other side had a better deal/ life

Then comes ww1

The Russian army invaded the Austro hungry part of the Ukraine and Poland rather quickly, Ukrainians fought in both army’s, they didn’t really have much of a choice.

Then came the Russian revolution, nearly all of the red/white fighting was in the Ukraine, add to that the duchy of Poland making a land grab plus a few German and Austrian s trying to adjust borders.
Then the treaty of Versailles. Carved up the Ukraine, but it had no effect, Russian German Romanian, red army white army and the newish Ukrainian indepance army all fought each other. Ukraine declared independence in 1919. Even the French landed troops in 1918. In short it was a bloody mess that even I can not make sense of and I used to do this for a living.
By 1920 the different groups had settled down and parted from ethnic divisions to political divisions. IE communist or not. The Ukrainians cut a deal with the Polish, this basically ended soviet occupation but not completely.
1921 the poles and soviets cut a deal where Poland got some of the Ukraine and the soviets the balance. This may have brought peace to the polish bits but not to the soviet or larger parts of the Ukraine. It was not until 1928 that the soviets could claim total control

1930s soviet famine hit the Ukraine hard with an estimated 6 million staving to death, but the other impact was the polish controlled areas of the Ukraine had no Famine, so thus started the resistance again.

1939 and the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact) basically gave the balance of Poland to the soviets.

Now after all that which all happens in one mans lifetime would you not welcome the Germans as Liberators?????? The enemy of my enemy is my friend??


NB the Crimea was given to the Ukraine in the mid 1950s

[85 county]

Yea, Putin started all this! I'm brainwashed.

In several eastern Ukrainian towns over the past week, the military opened fire on its own citizens. Dozens may have been killed in the violence. Although the US government generally condemns a country’s use of military force against its own population, especially if they are unarmed protesters, this time the US administration blamed the victims. After as many as 20 unarmed protesters were killed on the May 9th holiday in Ukraine, the State Department spokesman said “we condemn the outbreak of violence caused by pro-Russia separatists.”
Why are people protesting in eastern Ukraine? Because they do not believe the government that came to power after the US-backed uprising in February is legitimate. They do not recognize the authority of an unelected president and prime minister. The US sees this as a Russian-sponsored destabilization effort, but is it so hard to understand that the people in Ukraine may be annoyed with the US and EU for their involvement in regime change in their country? Would we be so willing to accept an unelected government in Washington put in place with the backing of the Chinese and Iranians?

You seem not to be able to tell the difference between ethic Russians and ethic Ukrainians. Obviously the Russians want Russia and the Ukrainians want independence like they have for the last few hundred years or so. Transplanting a few million Russians to displace a local population is not the way to expand your borders. Ops sort im wrong apparently it is, Hitler did it, the Russians have done it before and India and Pakistan are doing it to England LOL
Now about this non elected prime minister, well it is true he was not elected as prime minister, he became prime minister after his predecessor changed from moving the Ukraine to the EU and back flipped on the voters who voted him in to join Russia ( economically) so your just wrong

The US State Department provided much assistance earlier this year to those involved in the effort to overthrow the Ukrainian government. The US warned the Ukrainian government at the time not to take any action against those in the streets, even as they engaged in violence and occupied government buildings. But now that those former protesters have come to power, the US takes a different view of protest. Now they give full support to the bloody crackdown against protesters in the east. The State Department spokesperson said last week: “We continue to call for groups who have jeopardized public order by taking up arms and seizing public buildings in violation of Ukrainian law to disarm and leave the buildings they have seized.” This is the opposite of what they said in February. Do they think the rest of the world does not see this hypocrisy?

The former protesters were in power, they were the ones who voted the Pro EU prime minister in. the same prime minister who did a back flip. So were in power are in power it’s the same people not different as you sagest

The residents of eastern Ukraine have long been closer to Russia than to the US and EU. In fact, that part of Ukraine had been a part of Russia. After February’s regime change, officials in the east announced that they would hold referenda to see whether the population wanted autonomy from the US-backed government in Kiev. The US demanded that Russian President Putin stop eastern Ukraine from voting on autonomy, and last week the Russian president did just that: he said that the vote should not be held as scheduled. The eastern Ukrainians ignored him and said they would hold the vote anyway. So much for the US claims that Russia controls the opposition in Ukraine.

Silly boy do you think anything the US says will influence Putin, Russia has paid back all the us loans so there!! Sort of thing. During ww1 and the conflicts of the revolution most Ukraine’s were killed in the east, those in the west made it to Poland or polish controlled Ukraine. Easter Ukraine was repopulated with Russians by the soviets

Even though the Russian president followed US demands and urged the eastern Ukrainians to hold off on the vote, the US State Department announced that the US would apply additional sanctions on Russia if the vote is held! Does this make any sense?

Yes it does, Putin lied

The real question is why the US government is involved in Ukraine in the first place. We are broke. We cannot even afford to fix our own economy. Yet we want to run Ukraine? Does it really matter who Ukrainians elect to represent them? Is it really a national security matter worth risking a nuclear war with Russia whether Ukraine votes for more regional autonomy and a weaker central government? Isn’t that how the United States was originally conceived?

Direct from Moscow center school for international reporting, did you major in Whatabouisum?? You seem to confuse the US and EU and nato all into one basket, just like a true red scarf youth, “ the west wants us weak”

And no it was not how the USA was conceived

Has the arrogance of the US administration, thinking they should run the world, driven us to the brink of another major war in Europe? Let us hope they will stop this dangerous game and come to their senses. I say let’s have no war for Ukraine!

Do not need to tell us, we are in Australia. Maybe you should be writing letters to your president

[Offender90]

Yea, Putin started all this! I'm brainwashed.

In several eastern Ukrainian towns over the past week, the military opened fire on its own citizens. Dozens may have been killed in the violence. Although the US government generally condemns a country’s use of military force against its own population, especially if they are unarmed protesters, this time the US administration blamed the victims. After as many as 20 unarmed protesters were killed on the May 9th holiday in Ukraine, the State Department spokesman said “we condemn the outbreak of violence caused by pro-Russia separatists.”
Why are people protesting in eastern Ukraine? Because they do not believe the government that came to power after the US-backed uprising in February is legitimate. They do not recognize the authority of an unelected president and prime minister. The US sees this as a Russian-sponsored destabilization effort, but is it so hard to understand that the people in Ukraine may be annoyed with the US and EU for their involvement in regime change in their country? Would we be so willing to accept an unelected government in Washington put in place with the backing of the Chinese and Iranians?

You seem not to be able to tell the difference between ethic Russians and ethic Ukrainians. Obviously the Russians want Russia and the Ukrainians want independence like they have for the last few hundred years or so. Transplanting a few million Russians to displace a local population is not the way to expand your borders. Ops sort im wrong apparently it is, Hitler did it, the Russians have done it before and India and Pakistan are doing it to England LOL

You seem not to be able to tell the difference between ethic and ethnic! Technicalities aside, Ukrainians have had independence for the last 23 years, so I'm not sure what you mean by "Ukrainians want independence". Russians want their status as equals preserved, which started to get stripped away the day this non elected prime minister got into office (by removing recognition of Russian as an official language) before any rioting in the east started.

Now about this non elected prime minister, well it is true he was not elected as prime minister, he became prime minister after his predecessor changed from moving the Ukraine to the EU and back flipped on the voters who voted him in to join Russia ( economically) so your just wrong

Can you please expand on the phrase "he became prime minister"?...
How did he do that? Abbott backflipped on his no new taxes pledge this morning. Do you think now that he's done that I could have a go at running the country? With the financial and political backing of my friends the Chinese? What you should really be asking at this point is "What do my 'friends' the Chinese want in return?"... Or rather why they are propping me up in the first place?

The US State Department provided much assistance earlier this year to those involved in the effort to overthrow the Ukrainian government. The US warned the Ukrainian government at the time not to take any action against those in the streets, even as they engaged in violence and occupied government buildings. But now that those former protesters have come to power, the US takes a different view of protest. Now they give full support to the bloody crackdown against protesters in the east. The State Department spokesperson said last week: “We continue to call for groups who have jeopardized public order by taking up arms and seizing public buildings in violation of Ukrainian law to disarm and leave the buildings they have seized.” This is the opposite of what they said in February. Do they think the rest of the world does not see this hypocrisy?

The former protesters were in power, they were the ones who voted the Pro EU prime minister in. the same prime minister who did a back flip. So were in power are in power it’s the same people not different as you sagest

Not following - not really looking for an explanation either, just making an observation that your reply above makes zero sense.

If you're going to get personal and call others (who have clearly put a bit of effort into their post) a "silly boy", tell them they are wrong or plain insult them (no matter how much you disagree with their point of view), at least provide them with a coherent counter-argument to show them why you think they are wrong. Otherwise we'll be heckling each other rather than discussing or debating the topic. Now I don't know about others, but I'd like to see more of what peppercorn has to say - doesn't mean I'll agree with him, but at least his posts are generally coherent and well thought out.


The residents of eastern Ukraine have long been closer to Russia than to the US and EU. In fact, that part of Ukraine had been a part of Russia. After February’s regime change, officials in the east announced that they would hold referenda to see whether the population wanted autonomy from the US-backed government in Kiev. The US demanded that Russian President Putin stop eastern Ukraine from voting on autonomy, and last week the Russian president did just that: he said that the vote should not be held as scheduled. The eastern Ukrainians ignored him and said they would hold the vote anyway. So much for the US claims that Russia controls the opposition in Ukraine.

Silly boy do you think anything the US says will influence Putin, Russia has paid back all the us loans so there!! Sort of thing. During ww1 and the conflicts of the revolution most Ukraine’s were killed in the east, those in the west made it to Poland or polish controlled Ukraine. Easter Ukraine was repopulated with Russians by the soviets
Not entirely sure what you're suggesting or getting at, could you please expand?

Even though the Russian president followed US demands and urged the eastern Ukrainians to hold off on the vote, the US State Department announced that the US would apply additional sanctions on Russia if the vote is held! Does this make any sense?

Yes it does, Putin lied
Tell us what you really think

The real question is why the US government is involved in Ukraine in the first place. We are broke. We cannot even afford to fix our own economy. Yet we want to run Ukraine? Does it really matter who Ukrainians elect to represent them? Is it really a national security matter worth risking a nuclear war with Russia whether Ukraine votes for more regional autonomy and a weaker central government? Isn’t that how the United States was originally conceived?

Direct from Moscow center school for international reporting, did you major in Whatabouisum?? You seem to confuse the US and EU and nato all into one basket, just like a true red scarf youth, “ the west wants us weak”

And no it was not how the USA was conceived

Has the arrogance of the US administration, thinking they should run the world, driven us to the brink of another major war in Europe? Let us hope they will stop this dangerous game and come to their senses. I say let’s have no war for Ukraine!

Do not need to tell us, we are in Australia. Maybe you should be writing letters to your president

[85 county]

You seem not to be able to tell the difference between ethic and ethnic! Technicalities aside, Ukrainians have had independence for the last 23 years, so I'm not sure what you mean by "Ukrainians want independence". Russians want their status as equals preserved, which started to get stripped away the day this non elected prime minister got into office (by removing recognition of Russian as an official language) before any rioting in the east started.



The removal of Russian as an official language started about 10 years before.
There are many other things that went on as well. With the collapse of the soviet union and the Ukraine’s independence, obviously the Ukraine issued Ukrainian passports, Russia also issued new passports IE a Russian passport will say, place of birth CCCP ( USSR) this is in a Russian federation passport. But a Ukrainian passport stated as place of birth Ukraine or if applicable Russia.
But that’s a side line, the Ukraine issued Ukrainian birth certificates and passports.
BUT many Russian Ukraine’s refused this new citizenship.

Late 1990s when Russia’s economy was turning. Russia offered to issue passports to these Russian Ukraines, which they took up on mass. Russia also offered a Cash package to any Russians still living in the former CCCP states that wished to return.

BUT unlike Russia which has passed laws LIMITING non Russian citizens as to where they can work. IE 2007 non Russians can not work in retail. NON Russians can not work in a government or state job ( just like Australia) etc etc. then there is the extra tax on non Russian citizens not to mention the backhanders and police bribes etc etc which are a daily thing.
The Ukraine has passed no laws either with the current government or the previous government limiting the rights of non Ukraine citizens.

Russian citizens do not need a Visa to live and work in the Ukraine. But a potential problem was coming. If the Ukraine was to join the EU and the “ strecheizen” (spelling) IE no visas need to travel though Europe. So no border crossing or check point between the Ukraine and Europe. This would require the closing of the border with Russia etc. in short I have no idea what the intention was for this problem.

But the short answer is, no you are wrong.

Can you please expand on the phrase "he became prime minister"?...
How did he do that? Abbott backflipped on his no new taxes pledge this morning. Do you think now that he's done that I could have a go at running the country? With the financial and political backing of my friends the Chinese? What you should really be asking at this point is "What do my 'friends' the Chinese want in return?"... Or rather why they are propping me up in the first place?


What a load of bollocks

The PM was elected on a platform of moving the Ukraine towards the EU.
At the 11 hour he did a back flip and accepted a deal from Putin NOT to join the EU. Then the riots started. The PM run away to Russia. The next minister ( finance) was elected in by there parliament.
The balance of you comment is just rubbish

Not following - not really looking for an explanation either, just making an observation that your reply above makes zero sense.

If you're going to get personal and call others (who have clearly put a bit of effort into their post) a "silly boy", tell them they are wrong or plain insult them (no matter how much you disagree with their point of view), at least provide them with a coherent counter-argument to show them why you think they are wrong. Otherwise we'll be heckling each other rather than discussing or debating the topic. Now I don't know about others, but I'd like to see more of what peppercorn has to say - doesn't mean I'll agree with him, but at least his posts are generally coherent and well thought out.


Looks like you are just as silly

Not entirely sure what you're suggesting or getting at, could you please expand?


Read my previous post, or recherché the Ukraine’s history

Tell us what you really think


I did

Mate give me a bell or drop off for a coffee on your way home, we can cover this some more if you wish,

[Offender90]

The removal of Russian as an official language started about 10 years before.
There are many other things that went on as well. With the collapse of the soviet union and the Ukraine’s independence, obviously the Ukraine issued Ukrainian passports, Russia also issued new passports IE a Russian passport will say, place of birth CCCP ( USSR) this is in a Russian federation passport. But a Ukrainian passport stated as place of birth Ukraine or if applicable Russia.
But that’s a side line, the Ukraine issued Ukrainian birth certificates and passports.
BUT many Russian Ukraine’s refused this new citizenship.

Late 1990s when Russia’s economy was turning. Russia offered to issue passports to these Russian Ukraines, which they took up on mass. Russia also offered a Cash package to any Russians still living in the former CCCP states that wished to return.

BUT unlike Russia which has passed laws LIMITING non Russian citizens as to where they can work. IE 2007 non Russians can not work in retail.

That's news to me. Do you know if this applies to non-residents only or anyone that's not a citizen? I was under the impression you could apply for a work visa (just like most other places) and the employer had to apply for a permit to employ non-residents (I.e. Foreign workers,) just like most other places in the world.

NON Russians can not work in a government or state job ( just like Australia) etc etc.

Not directly anyway, but they can be (and are) employed through a subcontracting arrangement (they work for a private company who provides contract staff for the government). In any case, that's not different to most other countries as far as I know.


then there is the extra tax on non Russian citizens not to mention the backhanders and police bribes etc etc which are a daily thing.

Extra tax on foreign workers is not unreasonable, or unique to Russia (so long as those with residency status are treated the same way). I know FTA's these days are trying to break down these traditional barriers. As for backhanders, yeah, I know about those... and its more than just police (medical professions, government bureaus etc) and they take "gifts" from everyone (or rather get given them by everyone).

The Ukraine has passed no laws either with the current government or the previous government limiting the rights of non Ukraine citizens.

They have removed RUssian as a regional official language in regions where the majority or citizens are russian and speak russian. I know this may be retribution for Russian moves a century or so ago to install Russian as the official language in Ukraine, by printing intellectual books only in Russian

Russian citizens do not need a Visa to live and work in the Ukraine. But a potential problem was coming. If the Ukraine was to join the EU and the “ strecheizen” (spelling) IE no visas need to travel though Europe. So no border crossing or check point between the Ukraine and Europe. This would require the closing of the border with Russia etc. in short I have no idea what the intention was for this problem.

But the short answer is, no you are wrong.

In your opinion anyway, eh? ;)

Can you please expand on the phrase "he became prime minister"?...
How did he do that? Abbott backflipped on his no new taxes pledge this morning. Do you think now that he's done that I could have a go at running the country? With the financial and political backing of my friends the Chinese? What you should really be asking at this point is "What do my 'friends' the Chinese want in return?"... Or rather why they are propping me up in the first place?


What a load of bollocks

The PM was elected on a platform of moving the Ukraine towards the EU.
At the 11 hour he did a back flip and accepted a deal from Putin NOT to join the EU. Then the riots started. The PM run away to Russia. The next minister ( finance) was elected in by there parliament.
The balance of you comment is just rubbish

Actually it's a close parallel of what I understand to be happening (I could be wrong, but that's what I believe based on what I've been reading).

Not following - not really looking for an explanation either, just making an observation that your reply above makes zero sense.

If you're going to get personal and call others (who have clearly put a bit of effort into their post) a "silly boy", tell them they are wrong or plain insult them (no matter how much you disagree with their point of view), at least provide them with a coherent counter-argument to show them why you think they are wrong. Otherwise we'll be heckling each other rather than discussing or debating the topic. Now I don't know about others, but I'd like to see more of what peppercorn has to say - doesn't mean I'll agree with him, but at least his posts are generally coherent and well thought out.


Looks like you are just as silly

hahaha... looks can be deceiving. That said, you could say I'm not normal, at least not in the sense of conforming to the norm.

Not entirely sure what you're suggesting or getting at, could you please expand?


Read my previous post, or recherché the Ukraine’s history

I have, and am just wondering if you're referring to holodomor, and if so, how familiar are you with the causes?

Mate give me a bell or drop off for a coffee on your way home, we can cover this some more if you wish,[/QUOTE]

I would, but I'm in WA these days, so it's a bit of a detour, if you know what I mean.

[85 county]

BUT unlike Russia which has passed laws LIMITING non Russian citizens as to where they can work. IE 2007 non Russians can not work in retail.

That's news to me. Do you know if this applies to non-residents only or anyone that's not a citizen? I was under the impression you could apply for a work visa (just like most other places) and the employer had to apply for a permit to employ non-residents (I.e. Foreign workers,) just like most other places in the world.

It is citizen only. What re do not understand is that Russia actually has a big immigration problem of it own, Kurdistan Turkistan, Georgia etc have large numbers of there population living in Russia. The former two are the street sweepers, factory workers, but the Georgians became noticeable because they baskily took over the fruit and veggie markets though out Russia. The explanation at the time. We want the face of Russia to be Russian. So if your not Russian your not working behind a counter. This is the most obvious examples there are many others.
Oh and each Oblust ( state) has a quota

NON Russians can not work in a government or state job ( just like Australia) etc etc.

Not directly anyway, but they can be (and are) employed through a subcontracting arrangement (they work for a private company who provides contract staff for the government). In any case, that's not different to most other countries as far as I know.

Yes but then any one who is a non Russian citizen who has or comes to know certain information though his work can be prosecuted as a Spy. This actually happens more often than you would think, say 20 – 30 people per week.
You could be a spy if you know the traffic flow though a particular suburb, as this information has some defense value.
OR you employer is a ***** and isn’t willing to pay your salary, this is very common SOP


then there is the extra tax on non Russian citizens not to mention the backhanders and police bribes etc etc which are a daily thing.

Extra tax on foreign workers is not unreasonable, or unique to Russia (so long as those with residency status are treated the same way). I know FTA's these days are trying to break down these traditional barriers. As for backhanders, yeah, I know about those... and its more than just police (medical professions, government bureaus etc) and they take "gifts" from everyone (or rather get given them by everyone).

Nail on the head there.

The Ukraine has passed no laws either with the current government or the previous government limiting the rights of non Ukraine citizens.

They have removed RUssian as a regional official language in regions where the majority or citizens are russian and speak russian. I know this may be retribution for Russian moves a century or so ago to install Russian as the official language in Ukraine, by printing intellectual books only in Russian

A reversal yes but not regional state wide. Remember as we talk about a region in the Ukraine, that is really the equivalent as a suburb in SA it like saying you can only speak Italian in Magill and Newton, and only English in the CBD. Ukrainian was not tought in schools nor could you work in government if you didn’t read write etc Russian. That was under the soviet rule. So yes based on that it is a reversal to what it was before soviet rule.



Russian citizens do not need a Visa to live and work in the Ukraine. But a potential problem was coming. If the Ukraine was to join the EU and the “ strecheizen” (spelling) IE no visas need to travel though Europe. So no border crossing or check point between the Ukraine and Europe. This would require the closing of the border with Russia etc. in short I have no idea what the intention was for this problem.


Can you please expand on the phrase "he became prime minister"?...
How did he do that? Abbott backflipped on his no new taxes pledge this morning. Do you think now that he's done that I could have a go at running the country? With the financial and political backing of my friends the Chinese? What you should really be asking at this point is "What do my 'friends' the Chinese want in return?"... Or rather why they are propping me up in the first place?

There system is a little different but a true analogy would be a vote of no confidence. In short he was kicked out by his own party. Which I think should happen here. Abbot was elected on some promises, he has backfliped so he has no mandate to lead.



The PM was elected on a platform of moving the Ukraine towards the EU.
At the 11 hour he did a back flip and accepted a deal from Putin NOT to join the EU. Then the riots started. The PM run away to Russia. The next minister ( finance) was elected in by there parliament.
The balance of you comment is just rubbish

Actually it's a close parallel of what I understand to be happening (I could be wrong, but that's what I believe based on what I've been reading).

Not following - not really looking for an explanation either, just making an observation that your reply above makes zero sense.

If you're going to get personal and call others (who have clearly put a bit of effort into their post) a "silly boy", tell them they are wrong or plain insult them (no matter how much you disagree with their point of view), at least provide them with a coherent counter-argument to show them why you think they are wrong. Otherwise we'll be heckling each other rather than discussing or debating the topic. Now I don't know about others, but I'd like to see more of what peppercorn has to say - doesn't mean I'll agree with him, but at least his posts are generally coherent and well thought out.

That’s the point they are not thought out, they are plagiarized rhetoric at best, so he is silly. Although more articulate than my writings. But that is not a measure of Knowledge that is a measure of communication. And there we have the answer of propaganda and history for that matter!



Read my previous post, or recherché the Ukraine’s history

I have, and am just wondering if you're referring to holodomor, and if so, how familiar are you with the causes?

Yes, and there were number of causes, some obvious and some debatable.
And how on earth do you know that word?? Have to be careful as its meaning is not directly translatable to English. It has a hit of “deliberate” in it. Like an organized famine, or as a punishment. Sort of. But can be used for a natural starvation in the sense of a religious person saying and act of god, but it is much more singular than famine and wider than starvation

Any way the short answer is the ongoing conflicts from 1914-1949/1950. Death and depopulation as well as scorched earth policies etc etc. is a massive topic itself.

and then there is this. the common usage of the word today refers to the soviet imposed famine against the Ukrainians. a sort of Ukrainian holocaust. But apart from the military moments over the land i am not fully on top of the political effects at that time, though I know the political effects on military actions. I do know that there was corresponding food shortages though out the USSR as a result of Starlins policies. I suspect that these policies alone would have lead to a famine. but in the Ukraine this famine was much worse because of the previous and post unrest. I also do not believe the common history that there was ONE famine, I suspect there were actually 3 famines. And yes it is IRONIC that the only stable time in the Ukraine was during the brief German occupation ( for that period)
Mate give me a bell or drop off for a coffee on your way home, we can cover this some more if you wish,[/QUOTE]

I would, but I'm in WA these days, so it's a bit of a detour, if you know what I mean.[/QUOTE]

So where is the 120? With you or here?

[85 county]

Top 5 Myths About U.S. Meddling in Ukraine


By Michael Bohm (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/authors/170364.html)
May. 15 2014 19:17
Last edited 19:17
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/f4a/5371-p-08-cartoon1981.jpg
Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov left many people scratching their heads when, during a Moscow news conference last month, he insisted (http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=496882) that Russia is not meddling in Ukraine in any way. Meanwhile, Russian leaders and the state-controlled media have repeatedly criticized the U.S. for meddling in Ukraine and destabilizing the country.
Here are the top five Russian myths about U.S. meddling in Ukraine and why they hold no water:
1. The U.S. has no legitimate national interests in Ukraine.
First, the U.S. was a co-signer, along with Russia and Britain, of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial integrity in exchange for its giving up nuclear weapons. This alone provides Washington a legal, if not moral, imperative to support Kiev after its territorial integrity was violated during the Russian invasion of Crimea.
Russian troops had the legal right to be located at the Sevastopol naval base it rented from Ukraine, but they had no right to leave the base, tear off their insignias and assist the pro-Russian “local self-defense groups” across the entire Crimean peninsula when they seized government and military installations and installed a Kremlin-loyal prime minister.
Any referendum held in what was essentially a territory occupied by foreign troops is considered illegal and illegitimate by all international norms. This would be like U.S. troops leaving their base in Guantanamo Bay, seizing an adjacent Cuban province of 2 million people, taking over Cuban government buildings, installing a pro-U.S. leader there, and holding a referendum allowing the U.S. to annex the Cuban province. Any attempt to justify this annexation as “returning Cuban territory to the U.S. that was rightfully gained in the Spanish-­American war in 1898” would be dismissed as an absurd throwback to 19th-century colonialism.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/5371-opinion-nuland-kerry.jpgReuters


Second, Ukraine is the sixth-largest European country by population and borders four NATO allies. The U.S. has a legitimate security obligation to help its NATO allies maintain stability in its own backyard. Any military conflict in Ukraine would have direct security implications for these four neighboring countries — and other NATO allies as well. The Baltic states, which were forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, and Poland, which has a long history of being a vassal of Moscow, have a particularly compelling interest in obtaining U.S. security guarantees if Russia further violates the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Romania, another NATO ally, will also look for U.S. support if the Ukrainian conflict spreads to the self-proclaimed Transdnestr republic.
2. The U.S. orchestrated the Maidan protests.
The roots of the Maidan protests were entirely domestic. Tens of thousands of demonstrators protested for months against the lawlessness, corruption and abuses of former President Viktor Yanukovych. It was not the U.S., but widespread outrage at Yanukovych that consolidated a diverse group of protesters — including Donbass miners, Ukrainian nationalists and tens of thousands of average citizens of all stripes — in a grassroots protest movement on Maidan.
3. The U.S. financed the Maidan protesters.
Pro-Kremlin political analysts and the state-­controlled media claimed that the U.S. State Department funneled billions of dollars directly to the anti-Yanukovych opposition movement as part of a larger U.S. agenda to orchestrate regime changes all over the world. Pro-­Kremlin journalist Dmitry Kiselyov recently said on Rossia 1 television that this money was transferred via diplomatic mail from Washington to the U.S. Embassy in Kiev and then on to the protesters. But these claims (http://russia.tv/video/show/brand_id/3963/episode_id/961513/video_id/963572/viewtype/picture) are completely groundless.
Yes, the U.S. State Department spent about $5 billion in Ukraine, but this money — which was spread out over 20 years, long before Maidan — was spent on programs promoting civil society and on charitable programs. U.S. law prohibits the funding of opposition leaders and movements, and there have been no violations of this law in Ukraine.
The objective of these U.S. government programs is as simple as it is self-serving: to spread U.S. “soft power” to other countries so that millions of grant recipients will think positively about the U.S.
The reason for the civil society development programs is also simple: The more democracies there are in the world with strong civil societies and institutional checks and balances, the more stable the world becomes. After all, as the old argument goes, democracies rarely fight each other.
The only problem with these State Department programs is that they are rarely successful in autocracies, where civil society, by definition, poses an existential threat to their “vertical power structures.” Notably, in the 1990s, when the Kremlin was committed to building a civil society, the government welcomed these State Department programs with open arms. Yet under Putin, in 2012, USAID was expelled from the country.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/5371-mccain-maidan.jpgHurriyet.com.tr
U.S. Senator John McCain speaking in front of protesters in Kiev.


4. U.S. support for the interim government in Kiev is meddling in Russia's backyard.
After Yanukovych fled Ukraine and Russia cut off its financial aid package to the country, it was natural that Kiev would turn to Europe and the U.S. for assistance. What did the Kremlin expect? Did it expect that the U.S. — just to avoid upsetting Russia — would turn its back on Ukraine, which was on the verge of bankruptcy and facing violent separatist attacks in roughly one-third of the country after having lost 5 percent of its territory to Russian annexation?
Every country supports its allies. If Russia has a sovereign right to support its allies — for example, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela and Nicaragua — why should the U.S. not support Ukraine — including, yes, intelligence support and FBI agents who are trying to help Kiev return some of the billions that Yanukovych may have taken out of the country? This is what allies do.
Notably, U.S. President Barack Obama has refused to provide military weapons to Kiev to avoid escalating the conflict into a Cold War-like proxy war, something that should not be lost on Moscow.
5. The U.S. is guilty of “luring” Ukraine into its sphere of influence.
U.S. support for Kiev is clearly a sensitive issue for the Kremlin because of Ukraine’s geostrategic importance for Russia. But blaming the U.S. because the majority of Ukrainians prefer Western values and institutions is clearly shifting the argument away from the real problem: Russia has lost the “values battle” in Ukraine. That would be like blaming the Baltic states — or the U.S. for that matter — for their desire to join the EU and NATO after the Soviet collapse.
After 70 years of being part of the Soviet Union and after nearly four years of Yanukovych’s rule, most Ukrainians have had enough of autocracy. Not surprisingly, polls over the past year have consistently shown that most Ukrainians want their leaders to adopt Western economic and political models for the country — above all, government transparency, a strong civil society, a healthy climate for small businesses, independent courts and institutional checks and balances against government abuse.
Ukrainians need not look any further than their neighbor to the west — Poland — where democratic, rules-based institutions and a free-market economy have helped Poland increase its standards of living by three times since the Soviet collapse. Meanwhile, Ukrainians’ standards of living have dropped over the same time period.
Therein lay Yanukovych’s fatal mistake. After giving Ukrainians hope that he would sign the EU Association Agreement, Yanukovych did an abrupt about-face in November and signed an inside deal with Putin. This betrayal was the main catalyst for the Maidan protests.
Russia’s blaming the U.S. for Ukrainians’ shift toward Western values and institutions is absurd. It would be as if an abusive husband, who, after beating his wife for years, blames her new husband for the fact that she filed for divorce and remarried.
Michael Bohm is opinion page editor of The Moscow Times.

[Chucaro]

What I would like to know ( I know I am asking for something impossible) is were I can see what actually the people want. Are they like to go with the Russians or not.
I saw some news that people like to be under Russia but are the sources of information like Al Jazeera bias?
Is a complex situation to have an educated opinion I guess.

[bob10]

85 County, I would like to thank you for your informative posts. Offender 90, yours too. The more I read, the more complicated the history seems. I admire the way you have had your conversation, and find it educational. Some one born in our Country, can't begin to understand the pressures of history in that part of the World. However , I will say this. It still seems like collective insanity, some times. Let's hope no one else gets hurt. And I mean it. Cheers. Bob