Unlock Australia

[CheekyD1]

There have been some developments lately that help our cause for free access to the Australian Bush.
Weather you like Roothy or not - Unlock Australia is an origination that we should support.
They have done more to promote Free Access than all the 4x4 associations combined.
Stockton Beach is their most visible result - this area and the nearby Wattigans former State Forest would have been closed completely by now if not for their tremendous efforts.
In Queensland I am encouraging for a similar effort regarding all the tracks at Mt Mee, our best chance of returning 4x4 access in Queensland and for Access to Bribie Island / Noosa North Beach on a Free for day access basis.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=694787913877381&set=vb.561464633876377&type=2&theater

Again if you like the owners of Scenic Rim or not is irrelevant. If the council closes Scenic Rim; City View will be next, then Levuka is just one Greenie council away.

Like Unlock Australia on facebook at a bare minimum or if you are inspired help out with a letter.

Lastly Forestry and sustainable logging of State Plantations are our ally.
greenies are hardly be bothered by a bloke aimlessly driving around in his 4x4 when they have trees being cleared to worry about.

We become the targets of green extremists once logging has ceased. Mebbin former state forest for example.
Also Logging Tracks make the best off-roading there is.
Wattigans is testament to that. I don't think anybody has been and came home saying that they were bored. This area must remain accessible!

The comments by the Prime Minister (again if you like him or not is irrelevant) in support of reopening logging should be supported.
There is a paid Green's support group, trolling social media, asking for letters to be written to the National Parks Minister to oppose the prime ministers statements.

So I wrote in for them


Dear Mr Hunt
I am writing to oppose the Wires and 'National Parks on line' emotive online campaign regarding locking up national parks and to support the Prime Ministers views on the subject.
I believe that too many areas of Previous State Forrest have been handed over to National Parks control for political reasons by Left wing parties
I recommend you reverse these decisions, returning all areas that have been previously been logged (often since settlement) back to State Forest.
May I suggest a new name for these areas STATE PLANTATIONS to better reflect their purpose.

Only old growth (never been logged) areas need to be preserved with the expensive and restrictive National Parks title.
While you are at it National Parks should be building Picnic Areas and Toilet facilities NOT Gates to keep humans out.

Best regards in your endeavors

Gary Biggs

I am not sure this is what the greenies wanted - but feel free to copy and send yourself.

Greg.Hunt.MP@aph.gov.au

For evil to flourish only requires good men to do nothing - Stop Agenda 21

[101RRS]

Stockton Beach is their most visible result - this area would have been closed completely by now if not for their tremendous efforts.


What is the evidence to support this - what we have there at the moment is exactly what the Indigenous Owners through NPWS said we would have - I agree not ideal but Roothy's rampage made no difference.

I agree with the Unlock Australia aims, but extravagant claims don't help - reminds me a bit about the claims of the Greenies but the opposite way around.

Garry

[voltron]

Off Topic a tad.

I'm all for unlocking areas for access but how do you protect if from the inconsiderates that ruin it for everyone, it sucks that we can't access some areas but it becomes pretty evident why they close areas down. I have no solution but when I leave some national parks I do wonder if it is better off just left closed because it saddens me sometimes to see the damage inconsiderate people do.

[redrovertdi]

Im happy to pay for access to double island point and bribie for a day trip purely because i always seem to be checked for a permit when parked on the beach which means the rangers and the police are doing there job and being present, the bogan mentality of im off the hardtop so i can drink alcohol while i drive and chuck my can out when im done is still strong and those are the ones that ruin it for all.

[XDrive]

Education is the key to keeping areas open Not only educating the Four Wheel Drive fraternity in how to access areas and minimise any impact on the environment but also educating the general public that owning a Four Wheel Drive and using a Four Wheel Drive responsiblily actually opens up the country to more opportunities.Opportunities to create growth and employment and also oportunities to show this wonderful country to others in all it's glory. Education, begins with learning to do things properly. We may have owned and used our Four Wheel Drive for many years but are we operating our Four Wheel Drive responsibily.If more people undertook a Four Wheel Drive Course we may be able to convince those in power that we are responsble users. I have a very simple philosophy which I like to tell participants who undertake one of our XDrive Four Wheel Drive Courses.
'First do no harm' This applies to the environment, ourselves and our vehicles and if we can apply these simple words to actions, it will make a big difference to how we do things. I am in the process of writing a book entitled 'Think Different Drive Different' which takes all these aspects and more into account in our driving. Hopefully, it will make a difference.

[CheekyD1]

Im happy to pay for access to double island point and bribie for a day trip purely because i always seem to be checked for a permit when parked on the beach which means the rangers and the police are doing there job and being present, the bogan mentality of im off the hardtop so i can drink alcohol while i drive and chuck my can out when im done is still strong and those are the ones that ruin it for all.

How much do you pay for a Day on Bribie?

I think $43.60 is excessive...

[Sitec]

We've not yet discovered a lot of the places talked about, but we have seen the High Country (all be it a small but stunning part), the Flinders etc. Each time, on occasion we've found littered campsites, fires left unattended, and several fourbys 'with all the gear but no idea'! I think the main area of concern (as said before) is education. There are those who actually appreciate and enjoy the surroundings and go on trips to genuinely explore.... Those that just go to get bogged, generally smash the place up and get plastered can go do that in the Malley or on a 4x4 'Adventure Playground'! How we go about getting that across to said parties is still an unknown, but we need to do something. I don't mind paying to enter national parks as long as the money goes back to the parks and not to the pockets of government. Long may it all stay open as I now have a fuel efficient 101 and want to see a lot more of this wonderful country! :)

[MR LR]

Locks only keep the honest people out, last week Sutherland Shire Council gated off '80 series hill' at Menai, today I saw a post on facebook showing a new track around the gate, do they seriously think locking people out of the bush is going to stop them trashing it? No, it's the bogan mentality.

[Crimdog]

Agreed, locking gates will only keep honest people out and we are the ones that are most likely to look after the bush. Unlock aus is on the right track ( pun indented... :) we need managment plans and more rangers/ enforcement to catch those doing the wrong thing. Definitely think we need to support the fight in whatever way we can.

[mikehzz]

The last time I was up in the wattagans at a camp ground it was horrendous. Bogan central, I couldn't wait to get out of the place and you want to paint greenies as bad guys? They are the only ones who care enough to do something about idiots trashing the place. Too bad that responsible 4wdrivers get caught up in the wash. More rangers cost money and everyone squeals about that. I live in greenie central, they love the bush and are out in it more than we are, usually walking. We should be standing shoulder to shoulder with them to stamp out the idiots who are ruining it for everyone, not alienating them.

[Keithy P38]

That's how my "group" roll when we go out bush. As a bunch of late 20's and early 30's, we are the in-between era, and every time we head out (even when we were early 20's) we got right up anyone leaving their camp with rubbish laying around or fires still burning.

To date we've been called heaps of names, but not once did any of the people we spoke to leave rubbish behind. They know we have pictures of their number plates as well which helps the cause!

Cheers
Keithy

[MR LR]

The last time I was up in the wattagans at a camp ground it was horrendous. Bogan central, I couldn't wait to get out of the place and you want to paint greenies as bad guys? They are the only ones who care enough to do something about idiots trashing the place. Too bad that responsible 4wdrivers get caught up in the wash. More rangers cost money and everyone squeals about that. I live in greenie central, they love the bush and are out in it more than we are, usually walking. We should be standing shoulder to shoulder with them to stamp out the idiots who are ruining it for everyone, not alienating them.
I think you'll find that the greenies that are really pushing for this, never leave the city.

[mikehzz]

I think you'll find that the greenies that are really pushing for this, never leave the city.

I'd rather deal in facts than supposition. Our delegate to the 4wd association from my 4wd club was offered a position on a committee dealing with a national park management plan and she accepted. It was a lot of hard work and as a 4wder she was definately in the minority on the committee. In her opinion, there was very useful dialogue happening and she thought that she created a favourable impression of 4wders to the other members. The other members had really only been exposed to the dark side of the 4wd community. The greenies on that committee came from all over, just like 4wders do. Anyone can go on the committees, like I said, it ends up with those who care the most.
On a more practical note, when I was young you could 4wd at Kurnell and the dunes near Wanda. Population growth and safety issues now has it banned. It was the same at Menai. As more people hit the tracks, there has to be some regulation, greenies or no greenies because it gets too hairy. There are too many people and too many 4wds unfortunately.

[wayne]

I just wish Roothy wasn't involved in unlock Australia. In the few videos I have seen him in, packing the beer seems to be the highlight of the trip.
How can anyone one take him seriously.

[mikehzz]

Further to my last post, what I'd like to see is dedicated 4wd national parks as a subset of the larger national parks. The 4wd section should be the responsibility of, and under the control of the recognized 4wd association in collaboration with the main park management. For example, Sydney is surrounded by massive national parks much of which is roped off. Surely reasonably large sections could be rededicated? As a 4wder, I like a challenging track, a good lookout and a nice camp ground. If the areas are listed as dedicated 4wd national parks then they can never be roped off. This puts the onus of responsibility on us. It would also separate the windbags from those who would actually do something. 4wding is a LEGITIMATE PUBLIC RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY and should be catered for in an appropriate manner.

[benji]

Unfortunately it's a value based question; what value do the various users put on the protection of the natural environment?
Sure, values can change with education (lack of ignorance), but values change with attitude too - and that's the problem.
It does seem to me that in the 4wd scene a few hoons ruine it for the majority. But to my eyes motorbikes do far more damage with a lot all to willing to cut their own tracks. But maybe, likewise, it's just the minority that make the most impact; so it's a perception issue also; with probably a whole heap of ignorance in the lay communities not helped by a sensationalist media.

A big issue is the idjits who go out there to cause track damage /rubbish etc. They spend half a day in one bog and chew the crap out of it. It's the whole 'all rights and no responsibility thing'. So you either put responsibility on them (which is impossible because of their attitude), or take their rights of access away - which in turn effects all the community; but what choice is there?

Then there's the environmental side of things. Closing a track because it's clay base is getting soft due to icreased traffic and below it is a pete bog - forget about a new track as there's no funds.

Our the spread of cinnamon fungus, or the turbidity of a stream effecting endangered mountain galaxea. It's stuff the average joeblow wouldn't realise and blame the greens/parks/vnpa for being city desk pushers when in reality is Park's staff that have made that decision and they're out in their park every day, not just a few times a year like most of the criticisers.

4wd Action and that don't lock up Australia mob have an opportunity to educate the public (which they do to a small extent) but they play to the Japanese vehicle bogan element quite a bit as that's what sells their mags......

[bob10]

How much do you pay for a Day on Bribie?

I think $43.60 is excessive...


Bribie Island vehicle permit is $ 41.75 for a week or less.


$ 130.40 for 1 week to a year , go during the off season, you have very few people during the week. Worth every cent.

Vehicle access permit fees

Moreton Island Recreation Area



1 month or less = $43.60
more than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Bribie Island Recreation Area



1 week or less = $41.75
more than 1 week (up to 1 year) = $130.40

Minjerribah Recreation Area



more than one month (up to 1 year) = $39.55

Cooloola Recreation Area



1 calendar day

obtained via the internet = $11.05
not obtained via the internet = $16.55


1 week or less = $27.70
1 month or less = $43.60
more than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Fraser Island Recreation Area



1 month or less = $43.60
More than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Fraser Island and Cooloola Recreation Area

Note: Visitors purchasing monthly or yearly permits for both Fraser and Cooloola for the same duration will receive a 20% discount on the cost of the two permits.


1 month or less = $69.80
More than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $350.00
Camping fees from 20 September 2013
Fees for camping permits in national parks and other protected areas, forest
reserves, State forests and recreation areas, from 20 September 2013:
• $5.60 per person per night, or $22.40 per family per night;
• $3.10 per person per night for students and accompanying
adults on approved educational excursions.
Family rate
A family is 1 or 2 adults and accompanying children under 18 years.
The family rate applies to a maximum of 8 people in total.
Free of charge for children under 5 years.

[bob10]

Fraser Island conservationist, John Sinclair notes in the latest ' Fraser Island Defenders Organisation ' newsletter that;


"lawless behaviour on Fraser has won the day, with Qld. Parks & Wildlife Service rangers giving up the fight to keep the North Wathumba track closed near the Orchard Beach settlement . The closure was meant to protect the area but locals wanting the park opened up cut gates & tore out concrete, steel & timber installations & signs , even stealing a monitering camera." [ Courier Mail, village green, Sat. March 1st. ]


Sinclair fought for Fraser to be a National Park, and was hounded out of the State for his troubles. Bob

[CheekyD1]

The surprising arguments mounted in this thread supporting restricting access to forest are about protecting a public asset or controlling "Bogans".
"Bogans" who drink and drive, operate a motor vehicle in an unsafe manner or pollute campsites are covered by plenty of laws.
This is not a valid excuse for shutting down access to a forest.

In my experience closed off areas attract more dumping and are the worst polluted.
I have absolutely no time for people who dump rubbish in the bush but locking up the entire forest area of the country is not the answer.


{snip}
On a more practical note, when I was young you could 4wd at Kurnell and the dunes near Wanda. Population growth and safety issues now has it banned. It was the same at Menai. {snip}

I am very over the Regulators taking away our freedoms and our children's Freedom.
Making something illegal, like driving on a bush track or on a beach, then imposing a TAX in the form of a licence or permit, to allow participation in the very activity that was just made illegal? The activity could not really be that bad if we are still allowed to do it!

Unfortunately many rangers have become emperors of their domain working against the very interests of those who are asked to pay for their "Service" serving a toxic restrictive political agenda.

I am not opposed to paying for a service - but what are we paying for here? -
Imposing fees on off-roaders to have ourselves policed by narcissistic control freak rangers, putting cameras on main tracks, they decided should be closed to lock up all the forests for Agenda 21, catching and fining people committing the heinous crime of driving from A to B.
If a section of the political class wants all the forests locked up, we should not have to bare the cost of their desires.
I will bet you now, that My Disco, my Family and myself has enjoyed more time in nature than the protester in Central Square with the sign.

[bob10]

Unfortunately many rangers have become emperors of their domain

Imposing fees on off-roaders to have ourselves policed by narcissistic control freak rangers, putting cameras on main tracks, they decided should be closed to lock up all the forests for Agenda 21, catching and fining people committing the heinous crime of driving from A to B.




Unfortunately, the description ' bogun' seems to be applied to almost everyone with anti-social behaviour. I have seen mild mannered pillars of society turn into track wrecking maniacs, once out in the bush, away from the steadying influence of ' responsible society'. Perhaps it's a form of rebellion against their mundane lives.


I have been fortunate never to have met Rangers of the description above. My experience is, treat them with respect, you get respect back. The majority of my driving is intentionally away from the crowds, as much as possible. Rangers have never annoyed me, or any one with me. But some people have. Especially the type who get caught up in the hype of ' give it the berries!' . There's room for every one, as long as they respect the bush. And the Rangers. Bob

[newhue]

Cheeky, what's the go with scenic rim, lavuka, and ? in the scenic rim shire.

It's a sad old state of affairs. From what can see over the past decade, and I am guilty of this as well, but it seems the greenies have little reflection on their own behaviour. Happy to slander others, but unwilling to look at there own actions.

Bit like wearing leather shoes to a animal liberation march.

Now i have a family, I have come to realise the world is set up to listen to the winging minority. Now it is my turn to help undo what I helped create.

[weeds]

I am trying to get out and see Australia as much as I can........before they lock it up

I was following hema maps the other weekend in mt mee.......come to a gate that was locked. didn't even bother to think why has it be locked but still listed on maps.....did a 16 point turn with my 5m camper trailer and went of to find another way out

[disco man]

I think its good to see so much passion for our cars and the places where we enjoy them. not sure if i 100% back the greenies in what they do. in regards to the moron mind set i think its a birth defect. all the gear and no idea is so true!! up here i see it a lot blokes with big toys and small brains just trashing the place. these few idiots make us all look bad and they proudly display their stupidity on social media for all to see. i agree education is the key to enjoying your car properly and safely and keeping damage to the bush right down. joining a 4x4 club is a step in the right direction. i have very lucky to see a lot of our beautiful country and i fear my two little girls may not be so lucky with the way we are getting locked out of so many places. i will be doing what i can for the future of what we all love to do.i just hope other people will as well.

[newhue]

I am trying to get out and see Australia as much as I can........before they lock it up

I was following hema maps the other weekend in mt mee.......come to a gate that was locked. didn't even bother to think why has it be locked but still listed on maps.....did a 16 point turn with my 5m camper trailer and went of to find another way out

so did it bother you?

Recently went to barrington tops for for holidays. It seemed that parks open a couple blood lines through the park, which lead to some very small camp grounds, and the rest is locked in the name of management. Even a advertised camp ground as open was gated, suggesting the only place to camp was in the tree rooted slopping dust bowl car park. Or carry all your gear over the cabelled bollards to where you can happily camp no where near your car. NP's can't even keep up with camping trends, let alone look after weeds and feral animals let alone people.

I once believed in national parks and greenies before I had a family, but after being shafted by them in bushwalking circles I believe their agenda is too lock out every one, or greatly restrict them to a very small section where they decide what is good for you.

[weeds]

so did it bother you?



Nah.....just grinned and continues on my way

[alittlebitconcerned]

The Rangers or the Greenies (still don't really know who 'they' are) are acting to protect something that most considerate, thinking people deem valuable. The extent to which they achieve this and there methods employed should be debated, but does anyone who hates these measures and believes there should be none seriously think the bush won't suffer if the morons go unchecked? Feel justifiable anger at our shrinking freedoms, but spare the largest portion of that anger for the mindless idiots that cause the damage.

[bob10]

Just received the latest addition of ' On The Road ', an article by Ron Moon is relevant to this discussion. I will start halfway thru, so from Ron Moon, ' On The Road';


Then there is the continuing acts of vandalism & in some cases downright theft that is occurring right across our public lands [ Victoria] Two examples I'm aware of from late last year are pretty much indicative of what is going on.
The first was at Merringtons , a popular campground on the Aberfeldy river north of Walhalla. By all accounts a few hoons in their 4WD"s were camped there and during the night did burnouts on the grassy area, chopped down a tree, and then hooked up a winch strap to one of the new dunnies there & dragged it 30 metres before dumping it. The replacement costs....$35,000 or so.


Then , at the popular camping area of the Poplars, north of Noojee, within 24 hours of a new large toilet block being set up, some one came in, meticulously pulled it apart, & took it away. It seems the culprits may have been disturbed, as all the bolts on the on the remaining frame had been undone as if they too were going to be removed. That's blatant theft and needs to be dealt with as such. Again, the replacement bill .... in excess of $35,000.


Recent vandalism in Victoria has also been reported at Toorongo Falls, Trestle Bridge, the Checking Station near Noojee, and the Ada Tree, & Starlings Gap near Powelltown. Anyone with information on these types of incidents is urged to call DEPI on 13 61 86. all info treated confidentially.




DOB IN A HOON, or get every thing locked up. Over to you ,VIctoria Bob

[newhue]

within a week, a cyclone, bush fire, flood, or any other natural disaster wipes out more nature than humans do in 50+ years. Not much is said or done except it will take a few years to come back, and it sure does.
As I have seen in bushwalking circles, rare frogs, plants, and delicate environs all survived the hey days of the 50's. But come the environmental movement, NP's OHS, and that minority that ruin it for everyone; all of a sudden access to areas that has been avable for the past 50 year starts getting closed and restricted.

Whats the point of having a NP if one can only fly over, buy a post card of, or BBQ in the day use area. The farm stock, feral animals, and pest plant species can have it all to themselves.
Go for a walk along the Main Range NP and the cows are up the top smack bang in the middle of the NP with the weeds. Sundown is full of deer, pigs, and goats. Simpson Desert, cats. Great barrier reef has the crown of thorns.
I find it pathetic excuse those dam minority ruin it for all.

[DiscoMick]

The latest 4WD Action DVD includes footage of people people tearing up a peaceful creek because they insisted in driving through it, rather than walking around, camping there and enjoying its beauty. No wonder NPWS wants to restrict access.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

I find it pathetic excuse those dam minority ruin it for all.


Your post is, I'm afraid, part of the minority. Bob

[Markvesna]

if the NP's people let us use these tracks then the tracks would be in kind of good order Right, then my point is this, the Bush fire brigade can get there crews into areas where they need to be.

[CheekyD1]

The Rangers or the Greenies (still don't really know who 'they' are) are acting to protect something that most considerate, thinking people deem valuable.

Not sure you are correct.
Prior to Mr Carr's last election win, big areas of State Plantation in NSW was promised to be handed over to National Parks. This promise was made to the Green Party in exchange for their preferences.
In fact my source explained to me that 50% was handed over to National Parks prior to the Election and the remainder was transferred after the election.
These were areas of previously logged - replanted and ready to be re-harvested - sustainable managed State (logging) Forest. Of little or no Environmental Value.

All this action did, apart from securing Mr Carr another win, was to send many business and Jobs down the toilet - whole towns in some cases - and lock up many great driving trails.


thinking people deem valuable
Thinking People know the difference between being used for a political end and protecting natural treasures.
I have no problems with National Parks locking up an area of demonstrated World Heritage (such as an area of never logged old growth forest), but closing former state logging forests to win elections.....?

Check out Casandra's (Former Labor Staffer for Carr) comments at the 37 min mark.
The Bolt Report 9th March 2014 - Network Ten (http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-bolt-report/2014/3/9)
The whole issue is covered from 35 - 41 minutes



The extent to which they achieve this and there methods employed should be debated, but does anyone who hates these measures and believes there should be none seriously think the bush won't suffer if the morons go unchecked? Feel justifiable anger at our shrinking freedoms, but spare the largest portion of that anger for the mindless idiots that cause the damage.

Who are these morons that you are so sacred of?
I have never ran into anybody driving on a trail, deliberately wrecking the trail.
I really do not understand who these people are - and what that has to do with allowing people to drive off-road on a former logging trail.
How does the bush suffer from 4 wheel driving - if anything keeping traffic on fire roads keeps them passable.
Water erosion and re-growth have made a large number of Fire Roads impassible in the closed off Former State logging forests. 4x4 traffic would have fixed this problem.
Here is a fire road in the previously logged area of the Whian Whian National Park
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/886.jpg (http://s592.photobucket.com/user/Gazbon008/media/20131103_1307321_zps9453439f.jpg.html)
Hope the fire brigade is not in a hurry, it will take a big chain saw to get through that fallen tree, not to mention the lack of fire break this road now does NOT provide...
I know of four 4x4 clubs that would be happy to spend their weekend keeping this track clear, but alas there is a big locked gate preventing access to this track, which was blocked for a least half a kilometer that I walked.
How much co2 was released recent bushfires because of poor firefighting access to areas which used to be maintained properly by forestry?
How much co2 is being released by timber rotting in the idle state plantations - would it not be better off value adding this timber - giving it a very long half life by turning it into a house truss thereby locking in the co2 for a long time - life of the house indeed ?
Are we thinking yet?

[newhue]

Your post is, I'm afraid, part of the minority. Bob

Once upon a time I could absail over ships-stern spur in Springbrook NP, make my way down to Egg rock and climb it, then climb a water fall as I followed Nixon creek back up to the graded track and make my way back to the car. Over a decade ago that was banned because NPs deemed it too dangerous. Not for me, but for their staff if I had to be rescued, or perhaps on the fear of some sort of litigation.
I never asked for there help, and would prepare myself so accidents were not part of the day. If I did get it wrong then I would expect to pay, or have insurances', why not.
I am grateful I live in a country that has the services to come and save me, and I bet these people live for this role call in their job. But instead our lives become increasingly sad because of litigation and the dollar.
I'm sure this is not why my grandfather went to war.
I agree young probably drunk dickheads do dumb things, like in your post regarding Ron Moon. But young drunk dickheads we have all been to some degree.
Does anyone stop to wonder that these people may be rebelling from the huge amount of restrictions our lives are subject to these days.

So the Government and the greens succeeds in closing all 4x4 access. Then what, pick on boating or fisherman because they pollute the water ways. Then what...

Perhaps if the Gov stuck to the same principals of closing parks because they were mistreated, then they better close all the rail networks as they get vandalised regularly and makes no money as well. Both are essential services for society. But a spade is not a spade, and I guess I'm in the minority.

[Mick_Marsh]

So the Government and the greens succeeds in closing all 4x4 access. Then what, pick on boating or fisherman because they pollute the water ways. Then what...
I thought they had closed lots of areas around the coast to sports fishermen.

[newhue]

I thought they had closed lots of areas around the coast to sports fishermen.

not wishing to take this thread away from topic, but in short I don't know. Not really a fisherman. Garret and Rudd were looking at making extensive areas of exclusion zones. Not sure how much of it went through.

[newhue]

What cheeky is saying is my understanding of what happened. With an agreement between the greens and the previous Government they moved large chunks of state forrest into NP classification. NP didn't, and still don't have the resources to manage what they had previously, let alone now, so the answer is close it or greatly restrict access. They use safely, vandalism, erosion, heat, cold, rare frogs, rare habitat as excuses to do so to help reduce the load.

I was locked out of Mt Kaputar at Christmas. I wanted to go high to escape the heat, NP's closed it because of the heat. They used fire danger as the reason. So effectively using the minority who may start a fire in a heat wave against the majority who would not. Easier to bully the understanding majority than find, heavy fine, or jail the minority; but wrapped up and sold in a feel good safety package only partly true.

NZ does not close the place when it snows or is cold, but at Barrington Tops it is standard practice. Aus has litigation laws, NZ has a "your responsible for yourself" type of approach. Their health system also struggles like ours.

We need to be vocal for our access rights as cheeky is suggesting, other wise the minority be it vandals, greenies, OHS, or no win no pay lawyers will get it their way. Politicians will just follow the votes, be it a good or bad thing; and the silent majority just get whats left.

[CheekyD1]

Thanks Jason
I have also climbed down Ship's Stern and back up again.
Spent many a pleasurable day abseiling Turtle Rock next door.
Why are these recreations banned by rangers? They were conducted since settlement and probably for thousands of years before....?
Today if Bernard O'Riley decided to grab a bit of bread and head out into that part of Lamington NP looking for a crashed airliner on a hunch.
The ranger would stop him because the ranger would decree it too dangerous. (remote area - not enough provisions / safety gear - just in case)

Fishing in NSW is illegal - you must buy a permit - or cop a big fine
Great example of regulators making something, that should be free, illegal - then charging to allow participation.


What do National Parks Do...........?


Nothing......... (Used to be the Joke.)


But now the answer is BUILD GATES.

Here is the point - I love places like Lamington NP - in my time I would easily have walked over 100km in Lamington NP; but I hate the increasing restrictions being placed on it. The more remote walking tracks in NSW to the South already face restrictions. Will it come to pass that all the Walking Tracks will be closed? I am sure that the subject gets raised in Ranger meetings after time somebody gets lost and sleeps in the bush.
Oh there is another point - permits were introduced regarding Camping out in Lamington NP - first they restricted the numbers allowed to stay at Rangers Hut campsite to 30, then to 15, then to 6 now its illegal.

Sorry my point - where do we take a stand - Lamington NP should be a National Park open for use. But the forestry areas around Lamington NP should be open to be driven. Numinbah state forest, closed! Nerang state forest Clossed! Calagiraba state forest, closed! Ormeau closed. Logan Forrest state forest, Closed! Mt Mee former state forest Closed. There is not a place you can go for a Free Legal Drive in sight of Brisbane.
South of the Border is just as bad.
Moobil former state forest (still has state forest signs) gates up everywhere - Closed. Whine Whine NP former State Plantation - some of the nastiest rangers I have met anywhere - gates (with cameras) locked everywhere - even on main roads from village to village - following tom tom you run into a big locked gate.
Mebmin former state forest - 99% of which was logged sustainably for generations - the area was settled by loggers - Closed

The answer is not giving National Parks more money to "Manage NP's" more - they have done enough "Managing" already - the answer is to give Plantations back to forestry and let them get on with making money and sustainably using our assets. Let National Parks spend our money on real areas of environmental value such as Lamington.
If Not you and your children will be locked out of forests (and beaches) forever, and you and your children will be paying more tax to hire over educated and over paid rangers to "Manage" these areas!

Time is now - turn on the word processor and write to your local member about the Closed former State Forrest (or beach) in your area - support the blokes who lost their livelihood and reopen State plantations for everybody.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Not sure you are correct.
Prior to Mr Carr's last election win, big areas of State Plantation in NSW was promised to be handed over to National Parks. This promise was made to the Green Party in exchange for their preferences.
In fact my source explained to me that 50% was handed over to National Parks prior to the Election and the remainder was transferred after the election.
These were areas of previously logged - replanted and ready to be re-harvested - sustainable managed State (logging) Forest. Of little or no Environmental Value.

All this action did, apart from securing Mr Carr another win, was to send many business and Jobs down the toilet - whole towns in some cases - and lock up many great driving trails.

Thinking People know the difference between being used for a political end and protecting natural treasures.
I have no problems with National Parks locking up an area of demonstrated World Heritage (such as an area of never logged old growth forest), but closing former state logging forests to win elections.....?

Check out Casandra's (Former Labor Staffer for Carr) comments at the 37 min mark.
The Bolt Report 9th March 2014 - Network Ten (http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-bolt-report/2014/3/9)
The whole issue is covered from 35 - 41 minutes


Who are these morons that you are so sacred of?
I have never ran into anybody driving on a trail, deliberately wrecking the trail.
I really do not understand who these people are - and what that has to do with allowing people to drive off-road on a former logging trail.
How does the bush suffer from 4 wheel driving - if anything keeping traffic on fire roads keeps them passable.
Water erosion and re-growth have made a large number of Fire Roads impassible in the closed off Former State logging forests. 4x4 traffic would have fixed this problem.
Here is a fire road in the previously logged area of the Whian Whian National Park
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/886.jpg (http://s592.photobucket.com/user/Gazbon008/media/20131103_1307321_zps9453439f.jpg.html)
Hope the fire brigade is not in a hurry, it will take a big chain saw to get through that fallen tree, not to mention the lack of fire break this road now does NOT provide...
I know of four 4x4 clubs that would be happy to spend their weekend keeping this track clear, but alas there is a big locked gate preventing access to this track, which was blocked for a least half a kilometer that I walked.
How much co2 was released recent bushfires because of poor firefighting access to areas which used to be maintained properly by forestry?
How much co2 is being released by timber rotting in the idle state plantations - would it not be better off value adding this timber - giving it a very long half life by turning it into a house truss thereby locking in the co2 for a long time - life of the house indeed ?
Are we thinking yet?

It's clear you didn't read my post. Are you thinking yet?

[newhue]

I think as I have mentioned, it's easy to throw stones at others and neglect your own behaviour. Easy to focus on rat bags ruining it for others, while I'm ok and lawful.
Conversations with the now retired Sundown NP ranger would regularly reveal his frustration with people towing camper trailers in to Burrows water hole. His problem was, apart from stating trailers are not recommended, similar to the Simpson desert; was people are reluctant to put their 4x4 in 4x4. And the shear volume of trailers these days. They would tow in 2wd skidding down the hill. And worse, leave burrows skidding up the hill causing great wear to the track in 2wd.
It would then cost parks $$$$$ to get the dozer in to make the track safe for the visiting public. I'm happy with a rough track, but not all drive Land Rovers either.
So it could well be mums and dads being disrespectful, but just don't see themselves that way. Last time I saw a young hoon in a hilux, he barely had lunch let alone a camper trailer.

[Redback]

This is why areas get locked and this is only one of the many times this hut alone has been trashed.

Long Plain hut vandalism | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nswnationalparks/5504523173/)

On our recent High Country trip, we found fires left burning, rubbish everywhere, young trees cut down to make little shacks for kids to play in, tracks turned into bog holes and track cut into the hills around the camps, half burnt NP and State Forest signs, BBQ plates bent or ripped out, fire pit destroyed and numerous other fire pits around the designated fire pit, toilet wrecked, it just ****s me to tears, this is why places get locked, and if you think this is a one off, then people need to get out more and see the damage for themselves, cause it ain't pretty.

I think the DSE and Vic Parks do a great job with the resources they have, NSW equivilent of the DSE don't anywhere near what they do, you are a lucky lot down there.

NPWS NSW, have a certain amount of Parks they consentrate on, the rest just get left to usually just one Ranger and Parks worker, they just don't have the people or money to do the things they need to do.

I would imagine all states will have the same problem, I think from memory, in Sth Aust, you cannot drive on any forest tracks, only on public through roads, in VIC you can't drive on any beaches, so NSW and QLDers think yourselves lucky

Baz.

[460cixy]

Arseholes at long pain hut again ****es me off no end its so easy to access it could be any ****** damaging it. Bloody shame act land rover club does a top job of looking after it. One of my favourite camp spots

[MBZ460]

Perhaps they should equip the rangers with some of those stealth/game cameras to stick in the trees at random locations.

Then they will catch a few perps and pay for the cameras with the fines + fees to fix the damage.

It may only work short term but could catch the current batch of idiots.

Perhaps another idea is for everyone to gain some sort of certification before being let in these areas. It does not have to be too onerous but just cover the basics. Like a license. You need them for boating/fishing/driving/etc - why not for the use of national parks and other sensitive areas?

[newhue]

Redback, agree this is a terrible thing, but the act of one group should not close access for the majority. Hard core greenies would argue the hut is not natural so must go anyway.
And all joining forces to say these acts are why things get closed does nothing to keep them open.
I ask, how many users to the high country are there in a season, verse acts of senseless dumb vandalism. It would heavily lean in favour of responsible users.

I think people need to make it very clear, and others aware in 4x4 circles that burning cans and bottles, leaving fires burn, cutting green trees or standing dead, donuts on the beach and so on is just not on. If caught, then photos will be sent to whom it concerns. Tell your local member, tell the 4x4 magazines, tell NP's, tell anyone and everyone, but also tell them we need access to remain. Closing areas only ruins it for all. We live in an era of self management, why can't we look after our own bushland.

[Redback]

Redback, agree this is a terrible thing, but the act of one group should not close access for the majority. Hard core greenies would argue the hut is not natural so must go anyway.
And all joining forces to say these acts are why things get closed does nothing to keep them open.
I ask, how many users to the high country are there in a season, verse acts of senseless dumb vandalism. It would heavily lean in favour of responsible users.

I think people need to make it very clear, and others aware in 4x4 circles that burning cans and bottles, leaving fires burn, cutting green trees or standing dead, donuts on the beach and so on is just not on. If caught, then photos will be sent to whom it concerns. Tell your local member, tell the 4x4 magazines, tell NP's, tell anyone and everyone, but also tell them we need access to remain. Closing areas only ruins it for all. We live in an era of self management, why can't we look after our own bushland.

Yes it's true that they are only a minority, but it is happening on a regular basis of late and haven spoken to many Rangers over the years, they are fed up fixing these places only to have them vandlised the following week, this is one of the reasons for increasing and expanding the fees for all camping grounds in NPs in VIC, that were once free.

It's unfortunate that the majority has to suffer because of a mindless few, but this is way it is these days, some people have no respect for their own backyard and when you confront them about it, they just tell you to **** off I'll do what I want, actually the comment I got was; "**** off dickhead, it's public land, I can do whatever I ****ing want"

"Can't put brains in statues"

Baz.

[Mick_Marsh]

"Can't put brains in statues"
If I was a statue, I'd be offended at that remark.

I saw some boganish behavior at Mt Franklin on the Australia Day weekend trip. If camping fees in National Parks and State Forests discourage people like that from camping, I'd be for it. If it puts on more rangers, I'm definitely for creating employment opportunities.

[mikehzz]

.... Hard core greenies would argue the hut is not natural so must go anyway.....

If you could point me at some documentation, actual quotes...anything as a matter of fact, that would be evidence of that. I've not heard any of the hard core greenies I know say rubbish like that.

[rangietragic]

Fraser island is a good example of what not to do.When i started going there in the mid seventys in my vw bug,you could camp anywhere,you fed the dingoes your fish frames,you did the 'burn bash and bury "thing with your rubbish.There were rubbish dumps and brumbies so the dingoes had something to eat.Andy postan the logging contractor kept the firebreaks clear,had dozers and a fire truck plus a gang of blokes who could handle it.It had been logged for over 120 years,had cattle and horses run on it,been bombed,sand mined,you name it and was still worthy of world heritage listing and along comes john sinclair who wanted to get rid of all that and fill it with tourists.By the way logging could have still continued under w.h. listing,but the greenies would have none of it.So national parks took over and now we have dingo attacks,most of the fire breaks are overgrown,too few rangers who don't know what they are doing,and hordes of backpackers trampling the place to death.Some tourists think central station had trains!

[newhue]

If you could point me at some documentation, actual quotes...anything as a matter of fact, that would be evidence of that. I've not heard any of the hard core greenies I know say rubbish like that.

No I can't. But go to a National Parks Association meeting and you will get the vibe. They don't like horses, 4x4's, mountain bikers, fishermen, and so on. Bird watchers and bush walkers generally are their preferred users.
I also say go to a Greens Party meeting, you will get a similar feel. Call it crap, maybe, but ask your hard core greenie mates if they accept wild horses in the high county. If it's no, then they have to not approve of the huts as well. Because it was those bushmen who brought the horses. Spade is a spade. Easy to judge others but not oneself.

[Bushie]

Locks only keep the honest people out, last week Sutherland Shire Council gated off '80 series hill' at Menai, today I saw a post on facebook showing a new track around the gate, do they seriously think locking people out of the bush is going to stop them trashing it? No, it's the bogan mentality.

Love how we have "80 series hill" presumably this transformed from "Prado Hill" which in the early 70s was "Yamaha Hill"

Firstly probably not Sutherland Council, more likely the land owner who have been attempting to keep 4WDs out of the area for a number of years (even though this is a complete turn around of their policy from a few years back). The "Menai' area has been private land for nearly 20 years. The intent is to subdivide the whole length of Heathcote road
Heathcote Ridge (http://heathcoteridge.com.au/)


If you could point me at some documentation, actual quotes...anything as a matter of fact, that would be evidence of that. I've not heard any of the hard core greenies I know say rubbish like that.

Try looking through some of the submissions that have been put forward by the 'Colong Foundation' over the years

Visitors should not rely on hut accommodation, as Koscisuzko National Park is subject to sudden and extreme weather changes in any season. The huts destroyed in the 2003 bushfires within remote wilderness areas should not be rebuilt, as such replicas poorly present the lost cultural values, and reconstruction would be inconsistent with the Wilderness Act, 1987. - See more at: The NSW Environment Groups' Plan for Environment Protection and Restoration of Kosciuszko National Park | Colong Foundation (http://www.colongwilderness.org.au/campaigns/save-kosciuszko-national-park/the-nsw-environment-groups-plan-for-environment-protection-and-restoration-of-kosciuszko-national-park#sthash.NfNH9Nt4.dpuf)

There are plenty of other examples from this fairly extreme group if you are prepared to search, this is the same group that are pushing for the Newnes plateau to be included in a wilderness extension of the Gardens of Stone NP


Martyn

[mikehzz]

Thanks for that Bushie. I like to know what groups are complete idiots on each side of the fence. :D

[3toes]

Think yourselves lucky. Here in the UK they have put up proposed legislation which would make it illegal to drive on a non paved road. There are groups attempting to stop it however that it was actually put up at all days a lot in itself.

[newhue]

Thanks for that Bushie. I like to know what groups are complete idiots on each side of the fence. :D

Mike, I'll put my hand up for that. Before kids I was well on my way to becoming an extreme greenie. Being an avid bushwalker I opposed anything, and I mean everything that threatened the quiet natural experience I loved. However, if there was something of use to me, like a hut, then that was OK. That is why I said earlier, going to an animals libbers march but wearing leather shoes. I haven't, but the groups of keen "caring for nature" types only see it how it benefits them, and not what they actually do to others.

Now I have kids, I see it all very differently, and to be honest a bit ashamed I was so one eyed. Thank goodness age has some benefits. I still love the bush, my wife and I are still avid users, and get very frustrated seeing it thoughtlessly abused as well. But cars and little kids is the easiest, and perhaps only way to get them camping in good quality outdoors. Going to a sea side caravan park is to my idea of outdoors at all. However none of this is helped with bollards, gates, or nicely managed areas usually crowded because Parks feel that is adequate.

There are many small groups chipping away at Parks and Government. Weather OHS has much to do with parks closing track is only my opinion. It could also be masked as conservation management, or ties in nicely at least with management for legal fears and requirements.. 

If don't make a stand, and it seems behind Roothy then I fear our access privileges will erode more and more. As a walker, as a kayaker, mountain biker, rock climber, 4x4er, family camper. Government like control, so locking people out of areas difficult to manage is good policy food them. It would help hugely if 4x4ers lifted their image. Just like no one liked a stinking dread locked, unemployed hippy defending something. No one likes a fat, thonged, beer swigging character driving a lifted aggressive looking 4x4 worth $3000. I don't particularly think Roothy is our best representative, but he is sacrificing his time and family life to promote what I love, so I have to back him as well.
I can advise you I give him, and 4x4 action forum a fair bit of stick regarding their behaviour in the bush, from leaving fires burning to flogging camper trailers up hills in country they can go, but should not.

I have also sent my fair share of letter and emails to Parks, Government, and magazines defending access and liberties, ranging from old grow clearing in Tasmania, to annual camping passes.

So that's the idoit I am. PM me if you need more.

[DiscoMick]

Its all about increasing demand on a limited number of places causing management problems. If some people behave like vandals, then of course the managers, public or private, will raise charges or limit access to protect the area. That's just market forces at work in NP management. Gone are the days when governments would give unlimited access. Government philosophy now is cost recovery - we voted for governments who said they would balance the budgets - this is how they're trying to do that, by raising charges and penalising those who vandalise and damage the asset. Already there are places where spots are limited and you have to book ahead. Its becoming like the USA. We have no-one to blame but ourselves. What's the saying - loving places to death?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Redback]

Love how we have "80 series hill" presumably this transformed from "Prado Hill" which in the early 70s was "Yamaha Hill"

Firstly probably not Sutherland Council, more likely the land owner who have been attempting to keep 4WDs out of the area for a number of years (even though this is a complete turn around of their policy from a few years back). The "Menai' area has been private land for nearly 20 years. The intent is to subdivide the whole length of Heathcote road
Heathcote Ridge (http://heathcoteridge.com.au/)



Try looking through some of the submissions that have been put forward by the 'Colong Foundation' over the years


[SIZE=3][FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=navy]There are plenty of other examples from this fairly extreme group if you are prepared to search, this is the same group that are pushing for the Newnes plateau to be included in a wilderness extension of the Gardens of Stone NP


Martyn

Ahh Yamaha Hill, I remember that, when I was racing bikes, we used to go to Menai for some pratice(it was OK then), buggar of a hill at times, of coarse I don't go there anymore and when I drive by it makes me very angry at the state of the place now, it looks like a tip:twisted:


Fraser island is a good example of what not to do.When i started going there in the mid seventys in my vw bug,you could camp anywhere,you fed the dingoes your fish frames,you did the 'burn bash and bury "thing with your rubbish.There were rubbish dumps and brumbies so the dingoes had something to eat.Andy postan the logging contractor kept the firebreaks clear,had dozers and a fire truck plus a gang of blokes who could handle it.It had been logged for over 120 years,had cattle and horses run on it,been bombed,sand mined,you name it and was still worthy of world heritage listing and along comes john sinclair who wanted to get rid of all that and fill it with tourists.By the way logging could have still continued under w.h. listing,but the greenies would have none of it.So national parks took over and now we have dingo attacks,most of the fire breaks are overgrown,too few rangers who don't know what they are doing,and hordes of backpackers trampling the place to death.Some tourists think central station had trains!

Feeding the native wildlife creates problems, and has been a problem for a while and the reason why some of the Dingo population were relocated, they get reliant on people feeding them and they get too familar with humans and that inturn causes some bites from the Dingo, then it is either removed or killed for biting someone, they come into camps and steal food or rubbish, I do agree that tourism is killing the Island, and I think it isn't being managed as well as it should, maybe a restriction on numbers may help, I don't know.

But people are still feeding the Dingoes which is causing them to steal from camps and also approaching people to get food, which then causes attacks when they don't get food.

Backpackers, well what do say about them, dumb as dog**** all of them, well probably not all of them:angel:

Burning rubbish, this is OK if your only burning food scaps and paper products, not bottles, plastic, cans and similar stuff, plastic and cans only melts, glass either shatters or melts to remain until the next person uses that area and steps on broken glass or has to clean up all the other crap to be able to camp there.

At times I've spent 1/2 to 1 hour cleaning up an area so any kids that were coming with us didn't tread on any glass or unburnt cans or food containers.

We have a rear wheel rubbish bag, plastic, steel, aluminium and other products go into the bag and taken to a bin on our way home or if we see one while out exploring.

It's not that hard to do and keeps the place clean for when you return.

Baz.

[rangietragic]

BURN,BASH AND BURY,was the way we were supposed to do it,we only had steel cans back then,so i don't imagine there is anything left now.However,burn bash and bury is NOT the way to dispose of rubbish these days.Didn't we have some freedom back in the seventies:D

[mikehzz]

Hey Baz, was it you I was talking to at a campground in the Watagans during the combined Subaru/Land Rover club trip last year or the year before? I think you had the Amarok. Remember those bunch of dipsticks that had their music so loud you couldn't hear the conversation? They are the problem...am I right? :D

[weeds]

When I was young I probably did a few silly things but vandalized or left rubbish behind.....I still remember the kick up the arse my dad gave the first time I threw rubbish on the ground.

I do still burn what ever burns, probably not right......I nearly always pick up others rubbish and I have taught the kids this as well, leave the place better than wen you arrived is a good motto.

[weeds]

When I was young I probably did a few silly things but vandalized or left rubbish behind.....I still remember the kick up the arse my dad gave the first time I threw rubbish on the ground.

I do still burn what ever burns, probably not right......I nearly always pick up others rubbish and I have taught the kids this as well, leave the place better than wen you arrived is a good motto.

[frantic]

What would the response be if the gov't said we're closing down One of the old stations as its heritage listed and had a few vandals ( out of the thousands who use it) so you have to go to the next station to catch a train?
Or we're locking up the rocks as to many tourists and students doing history walks are wearing away the convict laid paths?
This is the practice being pushed by certain green groups In the forests and parks across Oz.

[schuy1]

"Feeding the native wildlife creates problems, and has been a problem for a while and the reason why some of the Dingo population were relocated, they get reliant on people feeding them and they get too familar with humans and that inturn causes some bites from the Dingo, then it is either removed or killed for biting someone, they come into camps and steal food or rubbish"
You missed a point there, before all the "Greenie-isasion" of Fraser there were brumbies, cattle and the odd goat wandering around. All of these die for various reasons over time, old age, still birth, accident, illness etc. They then provided the FEW dingoes with food. The dingoes also scavenged fish and bird carcasses along the beachs. The dogs in turn were controled in numbers by A- the amount of food available which controls birth/ litter sizes B accident/ old age/ shooting of any that were silly enough to annoy someone. Along comes the "experts" removes the major food sources, tells tourists to put all their rubbish in a tip , stops any1 apart from rangers culling dingoes, tells all and sundry that dingoes are just like your toy poodle at home, and bingo! situation as is today!
My background is rural , cattle producer to be exact, I have managed dingoes all my life, lived with them howling 10 yards away from my swag! Shot them, poisoned and trapped, so I have a fair bit of idea how they think and if you let them go and not control they will get cheeky and unafraid, just as those do on the island .Any animal thats hungry will do the same. If the dingoes on my property were as starving as those on the island my cattle would be in trouble !
And on the relocation bit :D, easiest dingoes I have ever shot!
Cheers Scott

[newhue]

Not sure weather this is pre or post election for Abbot, but things may be turning with unlocking state forests.

No more national parks as Tony Abbott pledges to support loggers as the 'ultimate conservationists' (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/no-more-national-parks-as-tony-abbott-pledges-to-support-loggers-as-the-ultimate-conservationists-20140305-345zp.html#poll)

I for one still believe education with some pretty blunt "look after it or loose it" type messages needs to be done. Parks and whats left of SF need to do some work here.
I don't know how I feel with dob in a dickhead. I understand the notion, but also seems a bit un Australian to me. I tend to pick up rubbish, remove fire rings, fix stuff myself while camping and leave it at that. Everyone to their own.

[Disco Muppet]

I don't know how I feel with dob in a dickhead. I understand the notion, but also seems a bit un Australian to me. I tend to pick up rubbish, remove fire rings, fix stuff myself while camping and leave it at that. Everyone to their own.

There are different levels of being a dickhead though.
Being a bit loud at night, or leaving behind a can or two is one thing.
Blatant vandalism, drink driving, etc needs to be reported.

[DiscoMick]

What would the response be if the gov't said we're closing down One of the old stations as its heritage listed and had a few vandals ( out of the thousands who use it) so you have to go to the next station to catch a train?
Or we're locking up the rocks as to many tourists and students doing history walks are wearing away the convict laid paths?
This is the practice being pushed by certain green groups In the forests and parks across Oz.

They're raising park fees to recover the costs of repairing vandalism, just like train ticket prices are raised to recover the cost of vandalised trains. That's user-pays for you.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[workingonit]

Difficult topic.

Off the top of my head I would say you all need to form mega state clubs, respect the rules, and contribute, be prepared to sacrifice a bit of the 'I can do anything I like'...develop political connections...reach out to other car clubs to increase political clout...make high profile public gestures (heck the Hell's Angels do charity stuff :(...have organised agendas...proven track records...to hard? Will the majority sit back and hope the minority groups will get something done (sounds like modern day attitudes to joining the union). Whoops...

I quickly tried finding a few youtube vids of four wheel drivers doing some genuine track maintenance ...nada... not saying there aren't any, but I couldn't find any...and I'm not saying that track maintenance isn't being done. There are probably some vids on hut maintenance if I try hard enough. Track maintenance may be boring viewing but it is good publicity. Plenty of track destruction vids.

Vehicles in the suburban environment get some resentment from the general public and 4x4 stickers concerning school crossings with hang mans noose and words like 'f' you and your kids don't help at all - what rubbish have you got on your trucks??? But in many respects it is track maintenance, soil erosion etc that the general public concentrate on - the general public are the majority, we are a minority and in our democracy majority rules (but they can be steered). Not sure what can be done about the image of thongs/shorts/bum cracks/beer in hand standing around :)

Powerful clubs will also get some sense into customisation. But along with that might also come benefits for other associated areas, like being able to own your own oxy/acet bottles - moders overseas shake their heads. I'm sure many farmers, panel beaters etc would be happy to see the back of rentals. Promotion of small scale manufacturing for 4x4 parts for export - tax breaks etc. Military vehicles - why can't our vehicles be very capable, properly but cheaply accredited for mods for heavier weight carrying and be part of a civilian reserve of fighting equipment - witness some of the idiot difficulties people have been having getting their defence purchases registered - or getting increases in weight carrying capacity recognised on regular vehicles long after the vehicles first registration.

Stop slagging off about Aboriginal land ownership. With the right approach to them they may become the largest pay and play sites after all public land has been 'gated'. Have you tried getting onto cattle stations that have money to barb wire and gate their entire 'leases'?

And dobbing in idiots/vandals/corrupt behaviour is not un-Australian. Protecting those who are fighting for liberty and equality is Australian ie Eureka stockade (and more recently the disturbing actions of ASIO and peoples willingness to spy on others without properly understanding the issues ie Garry Foley) - yes it is sometimes difficult to decide ie the communist party - but revolutions only come when society is rotten through and through anyway.

Anyway, of to another thread...

[CheekyD1]

Frankly some of the responses to the call to action posted in this thread make me ashamed to own a Land Rover.
The whole it's the "Bogan" "Hoon" "Moron" "vandal" that's why its locked up theme. Really holds no water and is totally beside the point.
Only a Pitt Street Greenie would swallow such a lame excuse to restrict the public's freedom to access a public nature area.
As was said previously they don't stop running trains to Penrith because they might get damaged. ATM's get skimmed but all ATM's are not shut down - Just in Case of skimming.

Before you all rush to tell me off re vandalism - I most certainly do not condone such stupid action - that is why we have Jails and where vandals eventually end up.
As for Hoons / Bogans doing donuts - I disprove of operating a motor vehicle in a dangerous manner (also a crime.)
Why is a good question, what harm does it do....?
The problem is that 4x4's can become unstable and topple over during this unnecessary maneuver, which can lead to injuries, leading to Ambulances, in remote areas leads to Care Flight, leads to Police presences, leads to Media Interest, leads to politicians wanting to do something, leads to Regulators restricting our Freedom...
So please just don't.
But again this is also just an excuse to restrict freedom -

shut down Fraser Island because Bogans might do a Do nut and might hurt somebody
- really...

[On the topic]
This thread is about saying that to have a nice quite recreational 4x4 drive on Bribie Island Beach for the day costs $41.75.
Vehicle access permit (Department of National Parks, Recreation, Sport and Racing) (http://nprsr.qld.gov.au/recreation-areas/vehicle_access_permit_fees.html)
There is no day pass available.... Why Sir Humphrey?

As Recreational 4 wheel drivers how many of you have written to the relevant state minister complaining about the regulators restriction of your freedom.
Three clicks on google and here is his email
Hon Steve Dickson MP
NationalParks@ministerial.qld.gov.au
or his electoral office address {if like me you do not trust public servants to pass on complaints regarding restrictors}
Postal Address:
PO Box 1978
Sunshine Plaza Qld 4558
Please post up your email - or do I have to go buy a Jeep.


Dear Mr Dickson
I wish to raise the matter of restricted access for recreational 4x4 access to Bribie Island beach.
The cost for casual access for a day seems excessive at $41.75
I believe that a nice day out on a beach in Queensland should be free of charge for all to enjoy.
At minimum the regulator should provide access on a daily basis as is done for Cooloola Recreation Area.
Thank you

Name, rank and serial number


How hard was it?

My letter is sent :angel: - is yours :(


If you have a former State (plantation) forest in your area that now has gates everywhere that did not exist 5 years ago, and is basically just idle trees with no facilities at all. But contains some great trails for recreational off-roading
Time to write to your local member, you can CC the state premier, national parks minister and forestry minister.

Post up your letters on this thread. :D

Petitions to ministers do work, how do you think the Pitt Street Greeies got so many closures. Any minister knows that one letter represents about 100,000 people who hold the same view.
If they start to receive several letter on the same subject they soon start to take notice.

Get to it people :cool:

[Redback]

Hey Baz, was it you I was talking to at a campground in the Watagans during the combined Subaru/Land Rover club trip last year or the year before? I think you had the Amarok. Remember those bunch of dipsticks that had their music so loud you couldn't hear the conversation? They are the problem...am I right? :D

Yes mate that was me, what a bunch of knobs they were, right down to the weight lifting eqipment, seriously who take weights camping, I think they were trying to scare people:eek: I think they just told people "hey look at me I'm a dickhead":D

Attention seekers:eek:

Baz.

[newhue]

As Recreational 4 wheel drivers how many of you have written to the relevant state minister complaining about the regulators restriction of your freedom.
Three clicks on google and here is his email
Hon Steve Dickson MP
NationalParks@ministerial.qld.gov.au
or his electoral office address {if like me you do not trust public servants to pass on complaints regarding restrictors}
Postal Address:
PO Box 1978
Sunshine Plaza Qld 4558
Please post up your email - or do I have to go buy a Jeep.


How hard was it?

My letter is sent :angel: - is yours :(


If you have a former State (plantation) forest in your area that now has gates everywhere that did not exist 5 years ago, and is basically just idle trees with no facilities at all. But contains some great trails for recreational off-roading
Time to write to your local member, you can CC the state premier, national parks minister and forestry minister.

Post up your letters on this thread. :D

Petitions to ministers do work, how do you think the Pitt Street Greeies got so many closures. Any minister knows that one letter represents about 100,000 people who hold the same view.
If they start to receive several letter on the same subject they soon start to take notice.

Get to it people :cool:


Ooooh Cheeky, that's like a dare to who's driving the hill, or who's doing the water crossing. I'll get cracking.

Be interesting to see who puts it up here. I bet most are too scared of being judged, of some BS fear it may be used against them. If only people realised how little others think of them, they would not be so concerned with what others think. Most are too busy with themselves to care for, or about anything, from another.

[weeds]

Post up your letters on this thread. :D

Petitions to ministers do work, how do you think the Pitt Street Greeies got so many closures. Any minister knows that one letter represents about 100,000 people who hold the same view.
If they start to receive several letter on the same subject they soon start to take notice.

Get to it people :cool:

re: letter, not sure you would like my letter to the minister..........take teewah beach, I reckon camping numbers should be halved and would be happy if fees were increase by say 50%.....(I would also continue to write my reason for and against the current system, why I believe the changes a worthwhile, suggest solutions ideas etc etc)if I posted my letter up here you guys would probably get your noses out of joint and want to debate your view......ministers are lucky to hold there seat for more than one term these days so I doubt they are going to do anything that's going to get his name/face across the front page of the paper.....

re: petitions do work, do you have an example where a petition has re-opened a area that has been closed or given access to area for the first time?.....I reckon petitions are a waist of time and that they are just a way of any minority group giving themselves a pat on the back and put out the world look what I/we have done......my just is 90% of petitions just get swept under the carpet.

just my two bobs worth......

oh and I thought you already owned a jeep

[CheekyD1]

Who wanted proof that Unlock Australia are doing good things on our behalf.

https://www.facebook.com/unlockaustralia/photos/a.622471821108991.1073741829.561464633876377/700912339931605/'type=1&theater

Yes Weeds you are right I would be very disappointed by such a letter.
We pay high road tax in the form of registration
In Queensland us v8 disco owners are discriminated against with even higher Rego because of our v8 motors, even td5 have to choff up for a 6 cyl rego
Even though either motor would pull the top off a cold custard.

Why do we have to pay even more tax to travel on a beach.
User pays you say.....
Not even I say - I gain no service from the fee.
The beneficiary of the service (the person who should pay) is the alarmist Pitt Street Greenie who sleeps happier at night in the suburbs knowing that there are Eco-Stasi Rangers keeping blue ass frogs tucked in at night. and "Bogans off the beach
The fee I am forced to pay (at pain of a court prosecution) justifies the restrictions on our freedom of movement - all I get from the fee is a Ranger interrupting my quite enjoyment of the Australian outdoors asking me for my papers to prove that I have paid.

[newhue]

Just as an idea, why pay more? Whats wrong with annual camping and access passes, and a quota booking system. That way people get what they want, and bit of serenity , and numbers are controlled. Do it for walkers on Hinchinbrook, Oxley Wild Rivers, Overland Track Tas, and Larrapinta Trail NT.
But no, banish the day use beach driving ticket on Bribie, allow far to many people on the beach, then raise the weekly beach driving fee, and then complain about how feral people are. Well done parks.

for what it's worth, my effort.

Dear Mr Dickson.

Hello

I have been a user of National Parks and State Forrest for many years as a walker, mountain biker, kayaker, rock climber and camper. I have seen much destruction from floods, fires, cyclones, feral animals, and in some cases even farmers live stock. I have seen some litter, and very small amounts of vandalism on the whole. I have also done camp site monitoring for national parks in the Main Range National Park. From this experience, in my opinion, a camp sites health was largely dependant on weather cycles of rain and drought, not people’s presence.
I now have a young family and like to get my children out into nature, prefering now days the safety and comfort of a vehicle to access the quieter options available. However I can’t help but feel discriminated against, not as a white person, but as a tax payer, avid user, and lover of the outdoors.

Can you explain to me the reasons why National Parks and State Forests now gazetted into National Parks, are being gated? Many of these areas have been logged, and have no World Heritage status.
I accept small amounts of vandalism happen from time to time, however on the whole, law abiding and respectful visitors must be in the majority. Is there any statistics on visitor numbers verse vandalism acts? Are decisions just made on antidotal information and observations?

From my observations over the years there has been far more damage by natural events and feral animals rather than feral people. However as a tax payer I am encouraged by parks to use smaller and more regulated offerings. More and more being told NO by a gate’s presance.
I would like to point out as a tax payer I am entitled to a commuter rail network which gets vandalised, makes no money, and caters for many people too; but I am not locked out of that liberty. Why are National Park different, especially when nature can rejuvenate itself so well. Can you clarify this for me please.

Kind regards
Jason XXXXX

[newhue]

geezs lads, my fellow 4x4ers, don't all rush at once.

Perhaps post up the automated response instead of your letter.

Now don't expect a reply. I once wrote a letter to the whole of the Tasmanian Cabinet. Only Bob Brown and the transport minister replied. In the age of multimedia I don't believe they can respond, however I do believe there is some bureaucrat who reads every letter and reports to the minister.

I can also tell you, those minority leather shoe wearing types, and prolific letter writers.

[mikehzz]

Geez Jason, I don't think you should have put the kisses at the end...that's a bit sucky. :D

[newhue]

yes Mike geez alright.
Bin it, bag it, pinch it, or praise it; at least I had a go.
I've had a dream to learn the piano for a while now. Seems the lack of interested parties helped me become selfish. Time to go.

I bid you all fair well. Good luck, take care.

[DiscoMick]

So, have we all signed up for Roothy's farewell at Landcruiser Park?
I've already met Roothy and seen Milo, so I don't think I'll bother.
You gotta wonder how 4WD Action will go without him, since his efforts have done so much to build the mag from the beginning. Agree with him or not, he deserves credit for a big effort over a long time.
I guess he figures, under a PM who says we don't need so many NPs, or any new ones, now is the time, at least until the next elections, to push to get access restored to some areas. Could be right, but he beter get in quick while the chance is there because there will be a backlash.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[101RRS]

So, have we all signed up for Roothy's farewell at Landcruiser Park?

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[DT-P38]

I'd rather deal in facts than supposition. Our delegate to the 4wd association from my 4wd club was offered a position on a committee dealing with a national park management plan and she accepted. It was a lot of hard work and as a 4wder she was definately in the minority on the committee. In her opinion, there was very useful dialogue happening and she thought that she created a favourable impression of 4wders to the other members. The other members had really only been exposed to the dark side of the 4wd community. The greenies on that committee came from all over, just like 4wders do. Anyone can go on the committees, like I said, it ends up with those who care the most. On a more practical note, when I was young you could 4wd at Kurnell and the dunes near Wanda. Population growth and safety issues now has it banned. It was the same at Menai. As more people hit the tracks, there has to be some regulation, greenies or no greenies because it gets too hairy. There are too many people and too many 4wds unfortunately.
Regulation WITH physical presence is the answer. But that will require an income stream and a new empire of regulators. Can that work?

[DT-P38]

...The replacement costs....$35,000 or so... again the replacement bill .... in excess of $35,000...
There is the real crime. Any wonder regulators aren't trusted. $35K dunnny? WTF

[disco man]

Well said everyone!!! some very good points brought up on this thread it has been a good read. i have sent my letter off not holding my breath for a return. as already been said love him or hate him roothy has done some good things. well done to cheekyd1 for getting the ball rolling.

[bob10]

There is the real crime. Any wonder regulators aren't trusted. $35K dunnny? WTF


You must be tongue in cheek. One, it was a figure posted in a magazine, with no facts to back it up. My quote was from that mag. Two, you have no idea of the actual damage done , and nor do I. The cost quoted in that article, whatever it may be, does not take away from the fact that the act was not what any genuine traveller in this country would consider to be neither lawful , or warranted , under any circumstances. The real crime? People like you put that spin on it. Bob

[DiscoMick]

$35k doesn't seem excessive for a toilet block, including materials and labour.


Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Redback]

$35k doesn't seem excessive for a toilet block, including materials and labour.


Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Especially if it is one of the new Eco loo's.

Baz.

[DiscoMick]

And its located in a remote area, adding to costs.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Benz]

I love getting out in the bush but coming from the west it's kind of hard to understand what all the current fuss is about as we havent had anywhere near as many places locked up.

You can pretty much do what you want over there but I do wonder when that will change. I have seen a few placed ruined by idiots who don't seem to care about the places they are camping in.

Over the next few months I will be traveling up the east coast and it will be interesting to see how many restrictions there really are on where you can and can't go.

I will say the amount of rubbish I have found in a few camps across southern gippsland has been appauling! One overnight camping spot had become a dumping ground (we decided not to camp there) and another state forest camp site was littered with rubbish which I spent the better part of an hour cleaning up. They had also chopped down a few trees around the place for fire wood and left behind several fire pits full of burnt cans and broken bottles.
And then just this afternoon we came accross a camp site in a national park where a group of young idiots in 2wds were throwing aerosole cans in the fire. Shortly after we arived they did a runner and left their camp fire burning and rubbish littered all over the place. Spent a while cleaning up that mess too....
Made me quite angry:censored:

[DT-P38]

You must be tongue in cheek. Well, no actually. I would rather see them not spend the overall $'s mentioned (which is all I have to go on in this thread) at all. But if they must, maybe a better use would be employing an extra patrolling parks officer for a year. You see, like most peope I regularly camp with, I usually just take my shovel, a roll of paper, (and when the family are along) a folding dunny seat and pop up cubicle camping with great ease and little expense. And you know what? It doesn't stink (until the job is done anyway!) like 90% of the ugly things around scarring the natural bush-scape. FWIW, I know first hand that there are those around that want a dunny and it seems a coin operated shower (or two) provided these days. But why out where I go to get away from the bitumen, concrete and steel? Good for them, but I never actually was a part of that obligation generation who wanted everything provided for them anyway. I prefer to DIY, minimalist camp and not pay extra in taxes for things I don't need or want. And you know what? If I do actually need a dunny and showers, I hire the facilities of a local business like a caravan park or join up with some mates and hire a community campground like scouts or lions for a base camp. I don't think regulators should spend our money setting up and competing with the pre-existing entities. Although i must say it does seem a lot of them are hell bent on grabbing everything they can and spending on whatever they see fit without bothering to ask the community at large. Personally, I just can't see VALUE in $35k set up (and God knows how much ongoing cost) for a bloody dunny I never wanted or needed. Just like the hundreds of $100k excel loos popping up all over the place at taxpayer and ratepayers expense. Or the $850,000 footy club makeover, or the $1,000,000 tennis club take over and rebuild we never needed, wanted or asked for in our local community.

[bob10]

Well, no actually. I would rather see them not spend the overall $'s mentioned (which is all I have to go on in this thread) at all. But if they must, maybe a better use would be employing an extra patrolling parks officer for a year. You see, like most peope I regularly camp with, I usually just take my shovel, a roll of paper, (and when the family are along) a folding dunny seat and pop up cubicle camping with great ease and little expense. And you know what? It doesn't stink (until the job is done anyway!) like 90% of the ugly things around scarring the natural bush-scape. FWIW, I know first hand that there are those around that want a dunny and it seems a coin operated shower (or two) provided these days. But why out where I go to get away from the bitumen, concrete and steel? Good for them, but I never actually was a part of that obligation generation who wanted everything provided for them anyway. I prefer to DIY, minimalist camp and not pay extra in taxes for things I don't need or want. And you know what? If I do actually need a dunny and showers, I hire the facilities of a local business like a caravan park or join up with some mates and hire a community campground like scouts or lions for a base camp. I don't think regulators should spend our money setting up and competing with the pre-existing entities. Although i must say it does seem a lot of them are hell bent on grabbing everything they can and spending on whatever they see fit without bothering to ask the community at large. Personally, I just can't see VALUE in $35k set up (and God knows how much ongoing cost) for a bloody dunny I never wanted or needed. Just like the hundreds of $100k excel loos popping up all over the place at taxpayer and ratepayers expense. Or the $850,000 footy club makeover, or the $1,000,000 tennis club take over and rebuild we never needed, wanted or asked for in our local community.


So, out of all that, I get, you prefer free camping areas, and be independent in the hygiene of same. Me too. Unfortunately for you and I, the majority of people, it seems in your State, want more than the basic set up. So, the relevant authority has to provide that, to prevent Victorians leaving their **** all over the place. As you have said. As for the footy club, & tennis club, WTF? Bob

[CheekyD1]

Bribie Island vehicle permit is $ 41.75 for a week or less.


$ 130.40 for 1 week to a year , go during the off season, you have very few people during the week. Worth every cent.

Vehicle access permit fees

Moreton Island Recreation Area



1 month or less = $43.60
more than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Bribie Island Recreation Area



1 week or less = $41.75
more than 1 week (up to 1 year) = $130.40

Minjerribah Recreation Area



more than one month (up to 1 year) = $39.55

Cooloola Recreation Area



1 calendar day

obtained via the internet = $11.05
not obtained via the internet = $16.55


1 week or less = $27.70
1 month or less = $43.60
more than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Fraser Island Recreation Area



1 month or less = $43.60
More than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $218.70

Fraser Island and Cooloola Recreation Area

Note: Visitors purchasing monthly or yearly permits for both Fraser and Cooloola for the same duration will receive a 20% discount on the cost of the two permits.


1 month or less = $69.80
More than 1 month (up to 1 year) = $350.00
Camping fees from 20 September 2013
Fees for camping permits in national parks and other protected areas, forest
reserves, State forests and recreation areas, from 20 September 2013:
• $5.60 per person per night, or $22.40 per family per night;
• $3.10 per person per night for students and accompanying
adults on approved educational excursions.
Family rate
A family is 1 or 2 adults and accompanying children under 18 years.
The family rate applies to a maximum of 8 people in total.
Free of charge for children under 5 years.











Not sure what you are saying in this post Bob
Are you saying that the price has gone up - from the price I picked off National Parks web site.

Or are you agreeing with me that having to buy a week pass for many areas of Public Beach makes day tripping to these areas outrageously expensive :o and restricts the recreational off-roader's freedom of access. :mad: