Bee-utey help please pics included

[Roverlord off road spares]

Hi Bee-utey, I managed to re route all my hoses from underneath the upper air intake banana and drilled the webbing and fed the vapour hoses through the webbing and connected the injectors to these above the intake.
On running diagnostics I tried auto calibration again, and this time I get the message in pic 1. STABILIZE UP , I checked documentation but can't find what this means or how to fix it.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/810.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/roverlord/media/calibration.jpg.html)

Here are other readings I got from The ECU.
PETROL MAP
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/811.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/roverlord/media/petrolmap.jpg.html)

LPG MAP
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/812.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/roverlord/media/gasmap.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/813.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/roverlord/media/gas.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/03/814.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/roverlord/media/gasreading.jpg.html)

regards,
Mario

[bee utey]

missing words are "stabilise (engine speed) to 2700 - 3300 rpm (at no load)"

set the reducer to 1.4 bar (pic 4)

set the reducer temp for changeover to 40C

you have a 20% difference in injection time between banks 1 & 2, run the prtrol for a while and see if it evens out.

[Roverlord off road spares]

missing words are "stabilise (engine speed) to 2700 - 3300 rpm (at no load)"

set the reducer to 1.4 bar (pic 4)

set the reducer temp for changeover to 40C

you have a 20% difference in injection time between banks 1 & 2, run the prtrol for a while and see if it evens out.
I found today, the right hand bank gas supply hose to injectors had a very bad kink, it was adversly choked gas supply to those injectors on a bank.

[pooh961]

Hi,

I have a very similar settings on my 2001 RR Thor engine currently, but still fighting: when hardly accelerating, the ECU switch back to petrol ( another issue is, that there is too big difference between petrol and LPG fuel consumption, but I would like to fine tune it later, because I am afraid to run on lean mix ... )

here are the pics about the settings:

77138

77139

77140

I saw, that I have lower pressure on reducer, only 0.95 bar instead of 1.1 ( or 1.4 as suggested), and the timing difference between petrol and lpg is a bit higher. the map is a result of autocalibration.
Should I adjust the pressure on reducer? could be the big timing difference because of this?
Roverlord, would be possible to post your current settings?

thanks

(as you can see, the o2 sensors are not in use, I am using one reducer and also one filter with two output hose )

[bee utey]

Hi,

I have a very similar settings on my 2001 RR Thor engine currently, but still fighting:(1) when hardly accelerating, the ECU switch back to petrol ( another issue is, that there is too big difference between petrol and LPG fuel consumption, but I would like to fine tune it later, because I am afraid to run on lean mix ... )

here are the pics about the settings:

77138

77139

77140

I saw, that I have lower pressure on reducer, only 0.95 bar instead of 1.1 ( or 1.4 as suggested), and the timing difference between petrol and lpg is a bit higher. the map is a result of autocalibration.
Should I adjust the pressure on reducer? could be the big timing difference because of this?
Roverlord, would be possible to post your current settings?

thanks

(2) (as you can see, the o2 sensors are not in use, I am using one reducer and also one filter with two output hose )

(1) If your LPG is switching to petrol under load I suggest you watch the pressure on screen as you (or your driver) accelerate. I see the regulator's (=reducer's) actual gas pressure is well below the program setting, at 0.78 bar instead of the required 0.95 bar. Adjusting the regulator to match or exceed the required pressure may solve your problem. Then you may need to autoclaibrate again or adjust the map table.

(2) Your O2 sensors are still connected to the vehicle ECU? The screen just shows that they are not connected to the LPG ECU. In any case the O2 output is only for diagnosis, not for self tuning. The vehicle ECU is still in charge of changing injector times to match the lambda point at low load. If you wish to see the O2 sensor values on screen just connect the purple wires of the LPG ECU. In any case, reading the change in petrol injector time as you change from petrol to gas and back again will tell you how much your calibration is wrong by. At a steady load the petrol time should change by less than 5% as you change fuels.

[olbod]

Excuse me.
What diagnostic tool are you Blokes using plugged into the gas thingy ?

Our Bitch is also on gas which stopped working.
Been told that therte is no one in Mackay with diagnostic tool to check it.

I know nothing about what we have and this is the first question on this subject with perhaps the idea to get it sorted.
With fuel tax going up I might be converted.

Ta.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Excuse me.
What diagnostic tool are you Blokes using plugged into the gas thingy ?

Our Bitch is also on gas which stopped working.
Been told that therte is no one in Mackay with diagnostic tool to check it.

I know nothing about what we have and this is the first question on this subject with perhaps the idea to get it sorted.
With fuel tax going up I might be converted.

Ta.
We are using software that comes with the lpg system and have a plug from the LPG ECU to a USB on Laptop. It is for injected gas systems only.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Hi,

I have a very similar settings on my 2001 RR Thor engine currently, but still fighting: when hardly accelerating, the ECU switch back to petrol ( another issue is, that there is too big difference between petrol and LPG fuel consumption, but I would like to fine tune it later, because I am afraid to run on lean mix ... )

here are the pics about the settings:

77138

77139

77140

I saw, that I have lower pressure on reducer, only 0.95 bar instead of 1.1 ( or 1.4 as suggested), and the timing difference between petrol and lpg is a bit higher. the map is a result of autocalibration.
Should I adjust the pressure on reducer? could be the big timing difference because of this?
Roverlord, would be possible to post your current settings?

thanks

(as you can see, the o2 sensors are not in use, I am using one reducer and also one filter with two output hose )
Hi pooh961, I'm still fiddling with mine. I still a having trouble with the fuel map. At idle it's a bit rough, under load it feels like it's starving, at 2200rpm when under load and on a hill it feels like it's not getting enough fuel. Changing the fuel map is what I find difficult as I don't know what I'm doing as there are too many boxes with settings in them.

[bee utey]

Excuse me.
What diagnostic tool are you Blokes using plugged into the gas thingy ?

Our Bitch is also on gas which stopped working.
Been told that therte is no one in Mackay with diagnostic tool to check it.

I know nothing about what we have and this is the first question on this subject with perhaps the idea to get it sorted.
With fuel tax going up I might be converted.

Ta.
A gas "thingy", eh? Well that'll help us narrow it down! :p

Seriously, you need to work out a little bit more detail about what your system actually is before anyone can help. Even some pictures of the most glaringly obvious gas parts (thingies, oh yeah)...

[olbod]

A gas "thingy", eh? Well that'll help us narrow it down! :p

Seriously, you need to work out a little bit more detail about what your system actually is before anyone can help. Even some pictures of the most glaringly obvious gas parts (thingies, oh yeah)...


Heh heh, as I said I know nothing about what is installed in our P38.
Even when it was working I never used it.

I did find that Sprint Gas manual in the owners handbook folder but it tells me nothing except how to fill the tank safely.

I only asked about diagnostic tools really. I certainly would not expect you to sort it out from what I wrote.
I had the thought that if it could be made to work again I might learn about it and be able to maintain the system myself.

I have sent an email to Sprint Gas asking them the location of the nearest service centre to Mackay. I thought that might be a start.

I have been telling The Bro for a couple of years to thro this gas crap in the skip but he likes it even tho it does not work. ?.

But with all this talk about budget woes and fuel tax increases I had the mad idea that this gas thingy might be worth an effort.

Oh well.

Thanks.

[pooh961]

(1) .... gas pressure is well below the program setting, at 0.78 bar instead of the required 0.95 bar. Adjusting the regulator to match or exceed the required pressure may solve your problem. ....

so, the reductor should allow at least this 0.95 bar instead of 0.78 ? I mean, something is wrong and I need to adjust the reductor directly, and not to try set up a higher pressure by the program?


(2) ... The screen just shows that they are not connected to the LPG ECU. ...
You correct. Indeed the O2s are not connected to LPG ECU, but they are working fine with petrol ECU.

thanks for your reply.

[pooh961]

Hi pooh961, I'm still fiddling with mine. I still a having trouble with the fuel map. At idle it's a bit rough, under load it feels like it's starving, at 2200rpm when under load and on a hill it feels like it's not getting enough fuel. Changing the fuel map is what I find difficult as I don't know what I'm doing as there are too many boxes with settings in them.

actually, last saturday I have change the tires. the old 245/70 R16 I changed to 235/70 R16, which is one of the original size ( but in real it was 1 inch difference in the diameter, I don't know why ?:confused: ) , and even if this is a small difference , I saw some improvement especially in acceleration. Idle and under middle load working fine, but as example during changeover I always feel a small pause, like can't deliver not enough gas right at the beginning. Maybe this is also because of pressure issue, or I would need to improve the overlapping time.
The most interesting thing for me was, that even if I try to change the map, the fuel consumption doesnt changing or only with a very small amount - I am always around 20 liter / 100km ( from 19 to 21) - but if I am thinking about the pressure, it could also possible, that all these changes doesn't have a 100% effect especially because of to low pressure ?? ... :angel:

regarding map I agree, too many boxes, nort so easy, but I am trying to change the values with possible smooth transition, without too big gaps.

[bee utey]

so, the reductor should allow at least this 0.95 bar instead of 0.78 ? I mean, something is wrong and I need to adjust the reductor directly, and not to try set up a higher pressure by the program?




The actual pressure is set by a screw on the regulator/reducer. The programmed pressure is the design objective so the signals sent to the injectors match the injector response times.


Idle and under middle load working fine, but as example during changeover I always feel a small pause, like can't deliver not enough gas right at the beginning. Maybe this is also because of pressure issue, or I would need to improve the overlapping time.I set the overlap to zero, it is not needed under normal conditions. Using sequential changeover it changes one cylinder at a time and should not surge.


regarding map I agree, too many boxes, not so easy, but I am trying to change the values with possible smooth transition, without too big gaps. Always save a working copy of the vehicle settings so if you have a bad map you can always reload the old configuration. To change the map, press the right mouse button and drag the cursor across and highlight the area you wish to change (or even the whole map) then press enter, change the numbers by +/- 5 or 10 at the most, press enter again. You can also practice on a base map with the ECU not plugged in to the laptop.

[pooh961]

The actual pressure is set by a screw on the regulator/reducer. The programmed pressure is the design objective so the signals sent to the injectors match the injector response times.

hmm, I am a little bit confused...
The reducer was setup via screw - if I see pressure 0,78, I cannot change it via programm, it is just an info about current setup.
The pressure I can set up in programm, is for injector settings.
In my case I should decrease the pressure value to the 0,78 (instead of 0,95), and the injectors will work with the current valid adjustment.
Or, I need a screwdriver and I need to adjust the reducer up to 0,95, and then the setteing for injectors will match the setting for reducer.
Is that all correct?




save a working copy of the vehicle settings so if you have a bad map you can always reload the old configuration. To change the map, press the right mouse button and drag the cursor across and highlight the area you wish to change (or even the whole map) then press enter, change the numbers by +/- 5 or 10 at the most, press enter again. You can also practice on a base map with the ECU not plugged in to the laptop.

Yes, I always do that. But to be honest, I am very carefull and I make only small changes at once, because I am still short of knowledge. The main reason I started to playing with settings is, that my original setting were so bad, that I was almost not able to drive, after finetuning it became even worst and I was afraid, that it can mechanically damage my car ( I thought first, that my driveplate in gearbox is broken and I was not able to drive over a small hows - with a 4.6 V8 engine !! ) Then I decided to buy an interface and I have reset the map - since this I can at least drive till medium load.

If everything goes fine, friday I am going visiting a specialist, but actually it is very hard to find a good one. so I will see.
but in the main time I will looking for some backgroud info - I am doing the service for my Range, so I hope, I will be able to maintaine the lpg too.. I just need the knowledge and understand the context.

so far thank you very much for your comments.

[pooh961]

by the way, I have this reducer:
Elpigaz - Vega-i Sport (http://www.elpigaz.com/en/vega-i-sport/)

my system is Elpigaz, this is a pretty good copy of italian system, and this is certified in my country ( only certified systems and only by certified technicians can be installed. and also only by domestic garage! I guess, in Europe we have only 3 countries with such a sctrict conditions :(

[bee utey]

Your system design pressure is 0.95 bar. Please adjust your reducer pressure with an allen key in the hole in the middle of the silver part on the right hand side of your reducer so that the gas pressure read by the pressure sensor at the bottom of the programming screen is 0.95 bar approximately.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/738.jpg

[pooh961]

So, on friday I went to the specialist I mentioned before. I got the contact from a guy who has an RRC 4.2 SC and he was happy with the servis - I thought if he can set up correctly an 4.2 supercharged ( which I think is a bit tricky ) then ha can give me some advice for my 4.6 thor engine.

First I wanted to let check why is swiching back to petrol under load, and then if possible, if we can reduce the lpg consumption.

He started with a visual control of equipment and after the first look he had some comments.
the inlet pipe to the reducer is 8mm, but the inlet itself is a 6 mm diameter, and the worst thing is, that this is determined by reducer itself, so that is strange, at leastfor such a power ( I guess my reducer is certified for 250KW). he also mentioned, that based on his own experience, it is usually not a good idea to use a connection with a 90 degree curve.
the same situation on other side - the toroid has a normal valve, even if the pipe is 8 mm, the outlet is reduced to 6mm. he mentioned, that here should be a so called "turbo valve" , or something similar, at least from power around 110-120KW.
that can cause, that normally the system is working fine, but under hard load oreccelaration there are moments, where the suck is enourmous and the reducer with these configuration cannot provide enough pressure.
then the pipes from the injectors into the inlet manifold are a bit too long - there is necessary to use the shortest possible pipes.

then we went for a test drive, with the following results:
- the pressure is definitely not enough
- the mix for lpg is very rich
- for one bank is much more rich as for the second

the second and third points are very interesting for me. the very rich mixture means, there is still place also for consumption reducig. especially, when he reduced the whole map down at 10%, it was still to rich.
but more important is, that for one bank was much more as for the second. he suggested, that the lpg injektors are not in the same sequence with the petrol injektors. he also provided a test, when he switched off injector one after one, and we feel that some of injectors have no affect, after switching off other injectors, we inmediately feel the rough run of the engine.

to be honest I knew this little rougness and he did test it because I told him, but I was not sure about, because it was not always there.
it was especially a feeling let say from cca. 70-90 km/h with a gently acceleraton, and sometimes at iddle.
now I think that this was because of gearbox - the automatic gearbox up to third gear is not directly connected to the driveshaft, is working with some slipping, but in 4th gear usually around 80 km/h is switching to direct drive. most probably that was the reason that I feel that vibration only sometimes , only when the drive was directly.

so lot of interesting things, the guy was very kind - like the guys here on forum, where even via internet you had some very usefull suggestions and tips.
It looks, now I need to back to the garage were the lpg set was installed and we need to discuss these open point.
also thanks to you guys, especially to Bee-utey or your help. ( I will need it in the future too :angel: )