D3/D4 Power Upgrades up to 300hp on the tyres

[MitchellBros4x4]

Hi all,

We're thinking of branching out into ECU flash power upgrades.

So far we've been able to achieve up to 300hp with an exhaust upgrade and ecu re flash. All safety parameters in place, including torque limiters.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

[CraigE]

What engines and at what reliability?

[Redback]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do, especially if you do the 2.7l TDV6 also, not just the 3.0l like everyone else.

I've also moved this thread to here, you should get more responses here.

Baz.

[Tombie]

Interesting, more info on torque figures rather than HP please...

[Tombie]

300hp is approximately 20% over a std HP 3.0L

Not an unexpected gain.

More interested in the 2.7l upgrades.

[101RRS]

I know that HP sounds better but can we talk in KWs and NMs.

Cheers

Garry

[SBD4]

300hp = ~224Kw at the wheels

are the standard figures of 180Kw measured at the flywheel?

Roo Systems dyno showed the starting number of their D4 @177hp = ~132Kw:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=234656059991884&set=vb.104875712969920&type=2&theater

So, MitchellBros are getting 69% improvement? Have I got that right?

If that's the case then, bloody hell, that thing would go!

Aaron, got any pics or footage of the test?

EDIT: assuming this is a 3.0Ltr - was the upgrade done on a V8?

[rb30gtr]

Hi all,

We're thinking of branching out into ECU flash power upgrades.

So far we've been able to achieve up to 300hp with an exhaust upgrade and ecu re flash. All safety parameters in place, including torque limiters.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Very interesting. As other have asked will this be for the 2.7's? or just the 3.0?

[benji]

Not sure about the 3.0l. But the 2.7 already had enough of their share of tc lockup problems... Only to put more stress on it?

[Dougal]

Some simple maths suggest you are way beyond factory torque limits. Unless you've done it all with higher rpm. Which isn't likely.

[captcam68]

Id be keen to check it out if the results are kosher! Would you offer the remap as a lifetime for the same car/owner in case it got reset by LR during a software upgrade / reboot etc as others do? and what approx would the cost be?

[Basil135]

Watching & waiting... ;)

[josh.huber]

I spoke with roo systems a few days ago they have put the stock car on dyno and gotten 170hp at wheels, after remap and exhaust have safely achieved 245hp at the wheels and 2 litres per 100 k better fuel economy. All done within standard ecu safety, I asked about egt gauge port in exhaust he said I don't need it. If car gets hot the computer will limp you off the same as standard. And because they are custom mapped toy can choose say 220hp. I may go for 245hp personally because I hate cruisers love racing them and roo only take them to 220hp at wheels. I have not done a kW conversion sorry

[justinc]

i have to say, that high egt's usually have little or no impact on cooling system temps, unless they are stratospheric for quite some time, so relying on an ecu high engine temp limp feature to avoid turbo and engine damage is incorrect.


i'd definitely recommend fitting an egt gauge (upstream preferrably) with these torque and power increases, especially if towing.

jc

[Dougal]

All done within standard ecu safety, I asked about egt gauge port in exhaust he said I don't need it.

Run the other way. The only way to know EGT is safe is to measure EGT. Particularly when tuning beyond stock.

[Redback]

I spoke with roo systems a few days ago they have put the stock car on dyno and gotten 170hp at wheels, after remap and exhaust have safely achieved 245hp at the wheels and 2 litres per 100 k better fuel economy. All done within standard ecu safety, I asked about egt gauge port in exhaust he said I don't need it. If car gets hot the computer will limp you off the same as standard. And because they are custom mapped toy can choose say 220hp. I may go for 245hp personally because I hate cruisers love racing them and roo only take them to 220hp at wheels. I have not done a kW conversion sorry

This for what vehicle, model, engine size??

I have noticed a few tuners saying an EGT gauge is not needed with a power upgrade, experience has told me otherwise, I would fit one anyway, just for peace of mind.

Baz.

[SBD4]

This for what vehicle, model, engine size??

I have noticed a few tuners saying an EGT gauge is not needed with a power upgrade, experience has told me otherwise, I would fit one anyway, just for peace of mind.

Baz.
Baz, it's the 3.0 litre 180Kw

[Tombie]

I spoke with roo systems a few days ago they have put the stock car on dyno and gotten 170hp at wheels, after remap and exhaust have safely achieved 245hp at the wheels and 2 litres per 100 k better fuel economy. All done within standard ecu safety, I asked about egt gauge port in exhaust he said I don't need it. If car gets hot the computer will limp you off the same as standard. And because they are custom mapped toy can choose say 220hp. I may go for 245hp personally because I hate cruisers love racing them and roo only take them to 220hp at wheels. I have not done a kW conversion sorry

Care to quantify the highlighted portions?

[josh.huber]

They say that the disco already has egt in its system. Uses it to fine tune for emissions reasons which makes sense because exhaust temp plays a huge role in modern diesels meeting the euro specs, low temps to much particulate high temps to much nox. I never said it would be incorporated into engine cooling system temperature. They also fit a larger exhaust which helps keep temps down as things flow. Dougal and tombie if you wish to know more instead of asking me maybe call the blokes that do the work. Send them an email invite them to post maybe. It would be in there interest. Also egt in a modern diesel is easily predicted by the ecu. Because the egt will not change at a given fuel rate, engine speed, boost pressure,ambient air temp, coolant temp. They know exactly what temps each situation will produce and alter fuelling to suit

[justinc]

They say that the disco already has egt in its system. Uses it to fine tune for emissions reasons which makes sense because exhaust temp plays a huge role in modern diesels meeting the euro specs, low temps to much particulate high temps to much nox. I never said it would be incorporated into engine cooling system temperature. They also fit a larger exhaust which helps keep temps down as things flow. Dougal and tombie if you wish to know more instead of asking me maybe call the blokes that do the work. Send them an email invite them to post maybe. It would be in there interest. Also egt in a modern diesel is easily predicted by the ecu. Because the egt will not change at a given fuel rate, engine speed, boost pressure,ambient air temp, coolant temp. They know exactly what temps each situation will produce and alter fuelling to suit

err, no. i would definitely like to hear an explanation from them, can you link them to this site please?

jc

[justinc]

This for what vehicle, model, engine size??

I have noticed a few tuners saying an EGT gauge is not needed with a power upgrade, experience has told me otherwise, I would fit one anyway, just for peace of mind.

Baz.

:D right on baz, this is so you can't get scared when you see those magic 4 digit celsius numbers :o:eek:

jc

[Piddler]

:D right on baz, this is so you can't get scared when you see those magic 4 digit celsius numbers :o:eek:

jc

I can't follow this :confused: how some one could say not to have a EGT Gauge. It makes common sense to me to have an EGT gauge if you are going to chip it and go to that expense . Why wouldn't you put in a gauge? its not that hard and you can keep an eye on high temps and stop any potential damage by easing off. R600 Macks had them in the 70's.

[Dougal]

They say that the disco already has egt in its system. Uses it to fine tune for emissions reasons which makes sense because exhaust temp plays a huge role in modern diesels meeting the euro specs, low temps to much particulate high temps to much nox. I never said it would be incorporated into engine cooling system temperature. They also fit a larger exhaust which helps keep temps down as things flow. Dougal and tombie if you wish to know more instead of asking me maybe call the blokes that do the work. Send them an email invite them to post maybe. It would be in there interest. Also egt in a modern diesel is easily predicted by the ecu. Because the egt will not change at a given fuel rate, engine speed, boost pressure,ambient air temp, coolant temp. They know exactly what temps each situation will produce and alter fuelling to suit

It is true that recent diesel ECU's perform their own EGT measurement. This became necessary when DPF's were fitted.

A modern diesel ECU reads EGT, it also reads A/F, boost etc.
All parameters which tuners change completely to meet their end goals. Just because the ECU monitors it, doesn't mean it's still safe.

There is only one way to get more power from a modern diesel. That is more fuel.
The only way to burn that more fuel safely (with only small increases in EGT) is to increase airflow in the same proportion.
The only way to increase airflow is with more boost.

So we have a flow on effect.
1. Is the A/F ratio maintained around stock levels? If not then we will see significant increases in EGT.
2. If the A/F ratio is maintained around stock levels, then we need an increase in boost that is higher percentage wise than the increase in power.
3. Can the turbos safely and efficiently produce this higher boost (higher shaft speeds) or are turbocharger upgrades required for reliability?
4. How does the gearbox like this large increase in power and torque?

The thing with modern diesels is it's very easy to increase the power. But increasing the power safely is very difficult.
It can be quite difficult at the consumer level to seperate the hack tuners who just increase fuel and drop A/F from the real tuners who have considered everything.

Which is why it's in the interests of the real tuners to make their case and show how good they are.

[Redback]

I can't follow this :confused: how some one could say not to have a EGT Gauge. It makes common sense to me to have an EGT gauge if you are going to chip it and go to that expense . Why wouldn't you put in a gauge? its not that hard and you can keep an eye on high temps and stop any potential damage by easing off. R600 Macks had them in the 70's.

I asked the question about EGT monitors.

Here's a link.

What sort of gains? - Page 7 (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/3676-What-sort-of-gains/page7)


Baz.

[justinc]

Is this a D4 with 3 litre??? No D3 or 2.7 D4 has ths capability to check EGT via engine management. I would assume the 3 litre with DPF will do however, as per Dougals reply.

JC

[Dougal]

I asked the question about EGT monitors.

Here's a link.

What sort of gains? - Page 7 (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/3676-What-sort-of-gains/page7)


Baz.

450 and 500C huh?
Whenever I see "peak" readings that low I start looking for problems. My two diesels with EGT run ~400C (pre turbo) on a flat 100km/h cruise.
I haven't yet run VCDS EGT on my tdi. Need someone else to drive while I watch the laptop.

The "accepted industry standard" of measuring post turbo is complete bollocks. When your turbo is working the hardest the post turbo readings go down while the pre-turbo readings go up. So you can be in piston melting territory while your "post egt" shows fine.

I got this cruiser owner to move his probe from post turbo to pre-turbo. Went from ~400C to easily past 750C: http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/gturbo-ct26-bad-boy-stage-1-1hd-fte-hdj79-over-200kw-at-wheels.655068/page-5#post-9105174


Cummins are running EGT of 380C (post turbo) on their industrial engines, but running them extremely lean, around 27:1, to keep NOx emissions down.
http://www.cummins.com.br/cla/downloads/_aplicacoes/_02Onibus/ISF_150.pdf

[Redback]

450 and 500C huh?
Whenever I see "peak" readings that low I start looking for problems. My two diesels with EGT run ~400C (pre turbo) on a flat 100km/h cruise.
I haven't yet run VCDS EGT on my tdi. Need someone else to drive while I watch the laptop.

The "accepted industry standard" of measuring post turbo is complete bollocks. When your turbo is working the hardest the post turbo readings go down while the pre-turbo readings go up. So you can be in piston melting territory while your "post egt" shows fine.

I got this cruiser owner to move his probe from post turbo to pre-turbo. Went from ~400C to easily past 750C: GTurbo CT26 Bad Boy Stage 1 + 1HD-FTE HDJ79 = over 200kW (at wheels! | Page 5 | IH8MUD Forum (http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/gturbo-ct26-bad-boy-stage-1-1hd-fte-hdj79-over-200kw-at-wheels.655068/page-5#post-9105174)


Cummins are running EGT of 380C (post turbo) on their industrial engines, but running them extremely lean, around 27:1, to keep NOx emissions down.
http://www.cummins.com.br/cla/downloads/_aplicacoes/_02Onibus/ISF_150.pdf

When I first put my probe in(pre turbo) it would go way past 750c towing, of coarse this needed to be fixed as I do tow quite a lot, so I went through getting more air into the system and I also had the re-map de-tuned a tad, a combination of both fixed the problem without losing too much power.

Got the EGTs down to around 600c, I also learnt how to drive by the EGT Gauge.

Anyone who chips a diesel and doesn't monitor it, is just asking for trouble, for me if I hadn't added a gauge, who knows how much damage I would have done.

Baz.

[josh.huber]

WWW.roosystems.com.au

[Dougal]

Roo Systems Products Roo Systems (http://WWW.roosystems.com.au)

I see nothing but tuning boxes.

[josh.huber]

Ring them you will talk direct to their tuner

[discotwinturbo]

I have a 3 litre and very happy with the power, and great torque for towing.
I have today had a 2.7 MY12 as a loan car (service for mine)......and I think it feels almost as pokey as my 3 litre.
In fact, if I drove the test car the same way I drive now, I would have purchased the 2.7 purely for the smaller rims.
It really surprised me how good it felt in relation to the 3 litre.
Brett....

[lpj]

I have a 3 litre and very happy with the power, and great torque for towing. I have today had a 2.7 MY12 as a loan car (service for mine)......and I think it feels almost as pokey as my 3 litre. In fact, if I drove the test car the same way I drive now, I would have purchased the 2.7 purely for the smaller rims. It really surprised me how good it felt in relation to the 3 litre. Brett....

I agree that the 3.0 has heaps of grunt. I'm surprised at how much get up and go it has. My last 2 cars were a Subaru Liberty GT, and Golf GTI- both very revy turbo's. I don't miss that slingshot feeling at all. Mind you, I can't say I'm getting great fuel economy!

[scarry]

I have a 3 litre and very happy with the power, and great torque for towing.
I have today had a 2.7 MY12 as a loan car (service for mine)......and I think it feels almost as pokey as my 3 litre.
In fact, if I drove the test car the same way I drive now, I would have purchased the 2.7 purely for the smaller rims.
It really surprised me how good it felt in relation to the 3 litre.
Brett....

The reason i grabbed the last of the 2.7's.
But if towing,i recon you would notice the extra grunt of the 3.

[jon3950]

I agree that the 3.0 has heaps of grunt. I'm surprised at how much get up and go it has. My last 2 cars were a Subaru Liberty GT, and Golf GTI- both very revy turbo's. I don't miss that slingshot feeling at all. Mind you, I can't say I'm getting great fuel economy!

I agree and this is the bit I will never understand. Why would you bother to increase power in these things at the expense of reliability/longevity? I really never found the 2.7 wanting and the 3 litre has plenty of power to do everything it needs to do - and have fun in.

Guess I'm not the target market for a chip.

Cheers,
Jon

[scarry]

I agree and this is the bit I will never understand. Why would you bother to increase power in these things at the expense of reliability/longevity? I really never found the 2.7 wanting and the 3 litre has plenty of power to do everything it needs to do - and have fun in.

Guess I'm not the target market for a chip.

Cheers,
Jon

Exactly....

[josh.huber]

Personally after a long tow (Mackay to Newcastle) with 2.5 t of boat chasing me I thought the same I won't ever up grade power. But my mate has a 200 cruiser he reckons pulls harder so I'll get the mod.since to upset those guys

[josh.huber]

I'm sick of cruiser and ranger owners and their mouths

[Piddler]

I asked the question about EGT monitors.

Here's a link.

What sort of gains? - Page 7 (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/3676-What-sort-of-gains/page7)


Baz.

Sorry Bazz, I was actually totally agreeing with you probably should not have included your quote some one elses. I couldn't follow why they would not have one.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Personally after a long tow (Mackay to Newcastle) with 2.5 t of boat chasing me I thought the same I won't ever up grade power. But my mate has a 200 cruiser he reckons pulls harder so I'll get the mod.since to upset those guys

Towing is one situation where you really DON'T want to have a "chipped" vehicle.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Meken]

What's your reasoning Gordon?

[mowog]

I tow a 3500kg van with my D4 considering what's behind me I have never felt the D4 needed more power. It gets the job done. Unhitched only a power junkie would want more. That said its great to see other players getting into the D4 game. Roo Systems have done work on my MINI and the crew there are great.

[josh.huber]

Its all a matter of personal opinion if there producing more power its great to know its there. I personally don't mind a bit of extra power plus like said earlier these are not. Patrols with mechanical fuel pumps and no way of controlling heat. Also the injectors are no longer single big squirters an electronic injector operates up to 7 times per power strike depending on the manufacturer this also keeps the heats down as it is not continuously spraying the piston. Timing is now infinite and they monitor ambient heats so many ways of keeping the fuelling correct. Plus if you get a 245 hp tune you only have access to that 245 if you have a hill and your fit to the floor. The hills in dynos don't exist, plus with the power the cars make and the way they change gears you would be at max power only for a short time as soon after it would be to fast and you would be off the throttle. Just my opinion thou and its fantastic that company's are getting into d4s this can only mean more sales and more support and after market accessories and options

[Dougal]

Its all a matter of personal opinion if there producing more power its great to know its there. I personally don't mind a bit of extra power plus like said earlier these are not. Patrols with mechanical fuel pumps and no way of controlling heat. Also the injectors are no longer single big squirters an electronic injector operates up to 7 times per power strike depending on the manufacturer this also keeps the heats down as it is not continuously spraying the piston. Timing is now infinite and they monitor ambient heats so many ways of keeping the fuelling correct.

Sorry but this is completely misleading.
No matter what your fuel delivery mechanism (commonrail vs mech pump etc) you cannot step outside the fact that burning fuel creates heat and more heat is required to produce more power.

As I have already stated in this thread, to increase power/torque without increasing EGT you must increase airflow through more boost. Due to the nature of thermodynamics and air compression the boost must increase substantially more percentage wise than your power/torque does.

All the controls a manufacturer puts into their ECU code to protect the engine are completely undone by an aftermarket tune. Is is misleading to say the factory protection remains. It doesn't.

How safe your engine is after a remap depends entirely on how good the tuner is and how well they understand the engine they are controlling. It is entirely possible to have one tuner melt an engine at a lower power than another can safely acheive. A bad tuner can also blow up your turbo(s).


Plus if you get a 245 hp tune you only have access to that 245 if you have a hill and your fit to the floor. The hills in dynos don't exist, plus with the power the cars make and the way they change gears you would be at max power only for a short time as soon after it would be to fast and you would be off the throttle. Just my opinion thou and its fantastic that company's are getting into d4s this can only mean more sales and more support and after market accessories and options

It isn't peak power that melts diesel engines. It's high load at any rpm. Which is why EGT measurements while towing quickly sorts out which tunes are dangerous and which ones aren't.

[gghaggis]

What's your reasoning Gordon?

The (often misleading) idea that you can drive with a chip (or remap) and only use the extra torque/power when you want to, is even more misleading when you're towing a heavy trailer.

Your engine ECU determines the instantaneous power/torque requirement, not your throttle position. Think of your throttle control as a "request" for a certain level of performance. The ECU will decide what level of fuel delivery/boost will be applied. Ergo, you may be applying a lightish throttle, but still comfortably maintaining speed up or down hills - many of you will have noticed the "ease" in which you cruise up hills when towing. It's not magic - underneath the car is working hard (it's even worse if you're using cruise control).

With a non-standard tuning, you'll quickly reach EGT levels that are dangerous. If you're lucky, the car will trigger an engine fault and reduce to limp status - I had this happen twice before I reasoned out and confirmed what was happening. I'll admit it was fun dragging off a Patrol whilst pulling a 3 ton van, but sanity (luckily) quickly returned.

If you're unlucky, you'll damage the engine.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Meken]

Cheers - I guess it's not like the old days where there was a cable between your foot and the throttle butterfly :)

[CSBrisie]

So, is the risk (of higher EGT as a result of a remap) reduced if a remap is combined with a larger diameter exhaust (as per Roo Systems combined remap plus exhaust packages?)
cheers

[josh.huber]

How do you know that the was not just a bulk fuel dump to achieve power. Was that on a d4 Gordon

[josh.huber]

Chip or re map

[josh.huber]

Mitchell bros you guys started this thread and have done a map can you guys answer as to the complexity of the system and how it can stay inside the parameters

[CSBrisie]

Good point!!

[Dougal]

So, is the risk (of higher EGT as a result of a remap) reduced if a remap is combined with a larger diameter exhaust (as per Roo Systems combined remap plus exhaust packages?)
cheers

No. Exhaust size does virtually nothing to drop temperature.

[gghaggis]

Chip or re map

This was a chip (on a 3 ltr diesel), so the fuel load would not have been adequately compensated for with an appropriate increase in boost.

However, it serves to highlight the dangers. Even with a bespoke remap, most tuners (even the good ones) are not targeting vehicle performance whilst towing 3 tonnes of assorted metal. You can ask someone like Pete Bell to take that into account, but you'll end up with a less aggressive mapping. I did this when I had my D3, and it was a reasonable improvement in driveability, but nothing spectacular.

I'd be wary of towing with a map that gives 300hp. Maybe with a setup like BAS or Superchips, where you can swap the map for towing duties.

Cheers,

Gordon

[josh.huber]

Yeah for sure, chips are dangerous things, bulk fuel dumpers at best! as you stated do nothing to control boost to keep temps on check, however the fact that you went into limp is a good indication that the ecu is watching. I'm definitely gunna get a egt and get a digital interface with alarm as I don't plan on watching the thing just knowing is there.probably mount under drivers seat with a long cable to read for curiosity readobs. After another phone call to roo he told me yeah we made 300 too but we also limped allot under load when pushed continually like a hill. That's why they have opted for 245 as a max but are happy to do any less I was thinking 225 for myself as they can still improve fuel economy with that lower maximum improvement. These forums are great for people to push around ideas and experiences. I tend to think the ecu max temp must be safe as all these tuning shops are all offering life time warrantys and insurance.

[josh.huber]

No. Exhaust size does virtually nothing to drop temperature.

Dougal Ill keep searching, but I have a website or article somewhere or maybe a book at home, that states that significant exhaust size does lower exhaust temps. As a much less restricted exhaust system aids in the scavenging effect on the engine (valve overlap and boost) allowing cooler air to flow over the top of the piston and through the cylinder. I think exhaust shops make claims to this in ways that make it unbelievable but. Yes it is true, looking around last night many shops won't remap without an exhaust upgrade.

[josh.huber]

By the way fellas while searching around in the net last night taipan exhaust is asking for a donor vehicle for a week and they will fit a 3 in exhaust to the car at a significant discount. They will also supply a car to drive around in. Sounds great

[josh.huber]

http://taipanxp.com.au/landrover-discovery-4-3-0l-rd-vehicle-needed/ they are in the gold coast, seems we are a target for accessories finally

[Tombie]

Josh - these chips (intercept boxes) are nowhere near as safe as a remapped ECU which when done correctly will alter all the fuel/timing/boost parameters.

All they do is take a number, substitute another value and return a number the ECU is expecting to see in return.

This is very different to changing all the values in the ECU (throttle, timing, pulse width, etc) and allowing the ECU to maintain control.

You sound convinced that you are going this route, so I wish you luck and hopefully it will all hold together for you.

The motorbike game does this a lot too (Powercommanders etc) but these are all intercept boxes that can change fuel to well outside operationally safe levels and the ECU cannot see these as they are masked by the box.

I have recently purchased software and hardware to reprogram my bikes ECU as opposed to a Box and so far the benefits have been enormous!

I can still run closed loop, change all parameters of ECU control but retain overhead limits safely.
The response is better and smoother and the power and response is better than prior

[Dougal]

Dougal Ill keep searching, but I have a website or article somewhere or maybe a book at home, that states that significant exhaust size does lower exhaust temps. As a much less restricted exhaust system aids in the scavenging effect on the engine (valve overlap and boost) allowing cooler air to flow over the top of the piston and through the cylinder. I think exhaust shops make claims to this in ways that make it unbelievable but. Yes it is true, looking around last night many shops won't remap without an exhaust upgrade.

There is endless BS about exhausts in print and on the net.
If you really want to know, then measure your current exhaust back pressure and see how "restrictive" it actually is.

[josh.huber]

Josh - these chips (intercept boxes) are nowhere near as safe as a remapped ECU which when done correctly will alter all the fuel/timing/boost parameters.

All they do is take a number, substitute another value and return a number the ECU is expecting to see in return.

This is very different to changing all the values in the ECU (throttle, timing, pulse width, etc) and allowing the ECU to maintain control.

You sound convinced that you are going this route, so I wish you luck and hopefully it will all hold together for you.

The motorbike game does this a lot too (Powercommanders etc) but these are all intercept boxes that can change fuel to well outside operationally safe levels and the ECU cannot see these as they are masked by the box.

I have recently purchased software and hardware to reprogram my bikes ECU as opposed to a Box and so far the benefits have been enormous!

I can still run closed loop, change all parameters of ECU control but retain overhead limits safely.
The response is better and smoother and the power and response is better than prior

Yeah for sure tombie I might not have written it correctly I hate chips totally against them like I said fuel dumpers. I'll go a low tune remap and egt alarm as stated. Yeah I have a 954 Honda love the bike until I ride a mates with a pc3 he added no peak power just smoothed it off with the pipe on it and it rode so beautifully compared to mine.

[josh.huber]

There is endless BS about exhausts in print and on the net.
If you really want to know, then measure your current exhaust back pressure and see how "restrictive" it actually is.

If I quote a website it would be one of substance. I agree and wrote there is allot of yeah making claims online. I'm sure it's in a trade manual I have at home in Newcastle. I can't wait for Mitchell bros to reply to this thread maybe they can put a d4 on with and without a bigger flowing exhaust and give us some readings

[Dougal]

If I quote a website it would be one of substance. I agree and wrote there is allot of yeah making claims online. I'm sure it's in a trade manual I have at home in Newcastle. I can't wait for Mitchell bros to reply to this thread maybe they can put a d4 on with and without a bigger flowing exhaust and give us some readings

If you plan to make any changes, you need to fit the gauges and baseline first.
Before you change anything.

[josh.huber]

Yeah for sure I might give the tuner another call and ask if they will before they do their next one

[SWH]

And estimated cost?

[josh.huber]

$3800 exhaust (stainless but the low grade) and remap

[Owl]

Landrover Discovery 4 3.0L (R&D Vehicle Needed) : TaipanXP (http://taipanxp.com.au/landrover-discovery-4-3-0l-rd-vehicle-needed/) they are in the gold coast, seems we are a target for accessories finally

Note the date this page on the website was posted - 5th April 2013. Nobody interested in having an aftermarket exhaust for nearly 1 year!
Nobody?!

[josh.huber]

I was on their site august last year when I bought mine and didn't see it then.

[jon3950]

There is endless BS about exhausts in print and on the net.
If you really want to know, then measure your current exhaust back pressure and see how "restrictive" it actually is.

Couldn't agree more. I'd like to know what's wrong with the standard exhaust.


Dougal Ill keep searching, but I have a website or article somewhere or maybe a book at home, that states that significant exhaust size does lower exhaust temps. As a much less restricted exhaust system aids in the scavenging effect on the engine (valve overlap and boost) allowing cooler air to flow over the top of the piston and through the cylinder. I think exhaust shops make claims to this in ways that make it unbelievable but. Yes it is true, looking around last night many shops won't remap without an exhaust upgrade.

None of this stuff is simple and fitting a larger exhaust is not always a good thing. I'd be wary of any claims of improved scavenging as basically that is all happening before the turbo and I seriously doubt that the standard exhaust is so restrictive as to affect that. Also a turbo motor generally benefits from a little back pressure to help control the flow of gas through the impeller and prevent boost creep.

I don't know much about the specifics of the disco exhaust system, so I'm generalising. I'm just trying to say, be careful. Claims of increased power from an exhaust system can be dubious as a few extra kWs at the top end may come at the expense of mid range torque. Personally, I think $3800 is a lot of money to spend on reducing your ground clearance.

Cheers,
Jon

[justinc]

I have never performed any scientific tests RE disco3 exhaust system flow/ restriction etc, HOWEVER, Landrover engineers spend many, many hours of analysis and design on this and quite frankly I would be reticent to swap out any exhaust system without a decent amount of analysis and measurement, IE backpressure figures under ALL load conditions like Dougal has mentioned already.

A few years back I thought I knew better than Lexus engineers, and removed the rear resonators on my LS400, and enlarged the pipework. Result? Nicer V8 sound, but NO performance increase and an annoying drone at 100km/h.

Just be careful, as Gordon says.


JC

[Big Dog]

I have put in a remap from Davis Performance Landies with Active
they claim about 550nm now
must say it goes like stink and from a lot lower rpm
TDV6 2.7

[bilbobaggins]

Hey chaps

I'm in melbourne, just got a roo systems re-flash done. Apparently first one in Victoria. Only been a day. I had the de tuned landrover. The 520nm one.

A while back we at this forum came to the conclusion that the low spec model had different injectors, the mob at Roo claim they haven't. The parts search and landrover which was done on my vin number also suggested the same replacement part for injectors. Point I'm trying to make is Roo claim both specs tune up the same. I can't prove this however I can give a short summary of my on the road experience....

Firstly no noticeable change down low..... That doesn't mean there is none just didn't notice any.

Mid range- wow!!!!! It's a different animal, pulls like train!!!

Top end - wow. Also seems amazing. Just revs out so much easier.

The car now seems to rev so much easier and keeps pulling. Previously it felt quite flat up top and would run out of steam.

Without meaning to sound strange. It feels more petrol like. Just revs easier and relentlessly. I was hitting 100km very easy. Obviously booting it. As for torque I assume it's increased as to make a 2.7 t vehicle get up and boggy would require a boost in torque.

Unfortunately i didn't get a dyno result. They didn't offer it as part of the service. Apparently in Queensland you do get one... I'm disappointed that was the case but reasonably happy with the result nonetheless.

One of the added bonuses I felt was a slightly smoother more refined revving.. Kind of seems electric in its delivery.....

Please remember this summary is my opinion, I dont claim to be right, there are no measurement before or after, just plain old seat of your pants feel....

Thanks for reading

Bill

[lpj]

Hey chaps

I'm in melbourne, just got a roo systems re-flash done. Apparently first one in Victoria. Only been a day. I had the de tuned landrover. The 520nm one.

A while back we at this forum came to the conclusion that the low spec model had different injectors, the mob at Roo claim they haven't. The parts search and landrover which was done on my vin number also suggested the same replacement part for injectors. Point I'm trying to make is Roo claim both specs tune up the same. I can't prove this however I can give a short summary of my on the road experience....

Firstly no noticeable change down low..... That doesn't mean there is none just didn't notice any.

Mid range- wow!!!!! It's a different animal, pulls like train!!!

Top end - wow. Also seems amazing. Just revs out so much easier.

The car now seems to rev so much easier and keeps pulling. Previously it felt quite flat up top and would run out of steam.

Without meaning to sound strange. It feels more petrol like. Just revs easier and relentlessly. I was hitting 100km very easy. Obviously booting it. As for torque I assume it's increased as to make a 2.7 t vehicle get up and boggy would require a boost in torque.

Unfortunately i didn't get a dyno result. They didn't offer it as part of the service. Apparently in Queensland you do get one... I'm disappointed that was the case but reasonably happy with the result nonetheless.

One of the added bonuses I felt was a slightly smoother more refined revving.. Kind of seems electric in its delivery.....

Please remember this summary is my opinion, I dont claim to be right, there are no measurement before or after, just plain old seat of your pants feel....

Thanks for reading

Bill

Which engine do you have again Bill?

[Tombie]

Great feedback Bill..

Do you run an EGT gauge?
And did you modify the exhaust in any way?

Does the Roo systems upgrade close the EGR?

[bilbobaggins]

Hey chaps.

1. I have the standard spec 3.0 v6 diesel. It's the one with the lower state of tune. the 3.0lt v6 with the 8 speed auto was run across the whole range. Roo claims it's the same engine with a lower state of tune.

Ok the EGR question. Sorry not sure how and if it's affected by the re flash.

I did not change the exhaust as the Roo representative told me that the standard landrover exhaust was pretty decent and only minimal gains would be achieved

As the re flash still uses the typical engine safety parameters it is assumed to be reliable and still within landrover factory warranty. So they tell me.

Further discussion led to the fact that the 3.0 l can pump out almost 300kw safely however they feared the rest of the driveline might suffer. According to the tech the roo parameters are safe and nowhere near the limits of the engine...so they put it down to 240kw at he flywheel off course.

I just came back from a drive with the wife. She was astonished at the power and to be honest so was I. It become even more obvious to me now as I wasn't dizzy from the previous days events( it was a big day)

Sorry bout my lack of technical understanding. In a nutshell they told me it's safe reliable and won't void my warranty as landrover is somehow got a deal going with the chaps at Roo.

I can honestly say it's turned an animal into a wild beast. Yet it has mor finesse than before.

Glenno the head of Roo has that video on you tube. It's pretty interesting. As I said though I didn't get the dyno results. Still I'm happy.

It certainly kept the drive smooth and more powerful.

Happy days.

[jon3950]

In a nutshell they told me it's safe reliable and won't void my warranty as landrover is somehow got a deal going with the chaps at Roo.

Please don't take this the wrong way as I'm not having a go at you, but...

I call bull**** on that one. That's something I'd want to see in writing.

Cheers,
Jon

[ADMIRAL]

Please don't take this the wrong way as I'm not having a go at you, but...

I call bull**** on that one. That's something I'd want to see in writing.

Cheers,
Jon

Ditto......think about it. Landrover would not have a deal with anyone ....period.

[JayBee75]

Agreed

After having years of tuning experience in performance cars, I assume the car was individually tuned on the dyno, rather than a generic map being applied for the d4?

A lot of companies use generic maps however in mass produced cars these days the tolerances and power outputs vary considerably, not only from manufacture but how they are run in and their lives to date to the point of tune. I have seen differences of up to 40rwkw in factory cars.

If it has been tuned to the car, most engines these days will cope with a reasonable increase, however you WILL reduce the lifespan of the driveline. The weakest link you will find will be the transmission which will either need strengthening via a valve kit etc at a specialist transmission place, or regular servicing, however this does not guarantee anything. Just remember the increased power needs to go through the driveline components and being 4wd will be soaked up via the transmission or diff, whatever the weaker point.
I know there are differing opinions, and this is mine, purely based on years of experience in this area, many types of tunes even back from piggyback days, to the development of edit tunes on factory ecu's.

Enjoy the car as these tunes also,can iron out small imperfections in the factory tune give smoother power delivery, better fuel economy, tuned to personal needs and obviously more power.

Cheers

[bilbobaggins]

No offence taken.

You're probably right. Just probably blowing smoke up my a@;e !!! I can't say either way. Maybe they meant the individual dealers.

I'm just hoping the Disco 4 proves reliable. I never hope to have to test the theory. . Anyway. It's not my claim. It's what they told me.

I also went for a suburban drive today. Averaged 7.6 lts per 100km. Impressive actually. I did about 150km. It was a varied drive ranging from flooring it to grandma style.

The car just seems happier for better use of a word. It hums.

It would be nice to hear what the boys at Roo have to say... I'll ring them and request their comments. Hopefully they have the answers. They certainly have a good product. ( my opinion ) maybe they can post some comments regarding warranty and this so called agreement they have with landrover or the dealers.

As for transmission being the weak point usually. I agree. For the record I got the chip to make overtaking with my camping trailer easier. The other day I was left wanting on an overtaking excersise. The car went ok , but just not as well as I was hoping. That's when I did research to see if anything new had come out. Hence my posts. Hopefully the re flash will be used for economy and safe overtaking and will not prematurely wear the tranny. Thanks everyone for your replies.

Ok take care chaps

Bill

[MitchellBros4x4]

Id be keen to check it out if the results are kosher! Would you offer the remap as a lifetime for the same car/owner in case it got reset by LR during a software upgrade / reboot etc as others do? and what approx would the cost be?

Thanks Captcam,

Basically the tune is dedicated to your vehicle alone, we extract the base fuel map from the ECU, send it away to be modified (to suit your needs), get it back and the upload it into your ECU. That is your tune for life, we cannot use it in a different ECU and we have it on file forever.

In theory this is a lifetime tune and in the case where the dealer does a software update etc we can reinstall the tune for a small labour charge to remove the ecu, flash the tune back in and reinstall it.

It's pretty simple at the end of the day.

Can do them for $1695 inc GST installed.

Aaron Mitchell

[101RRS]

Basically the tune is dedicated to your vehicle alone, we extract the base fuel map from the ECU, send it away to be modified (to suit your needs), get it back and the upload it into your ECU.

Sounds like a Bell Auto Services remap - but you can put it on and off as the owner desires and not take it back to the installer. The vehicle owner keeps the map file on their computer or the installing equipment.

The remap direct from BAS is a lot cheaper as well.

So if you are going to compete with places like BAS you may need to have a look at your pricing to be competitive, though your pricing would seem similar to other Chips offered locally.

Garry

[Dougal]

Further discussion led to the fact that the 3.0 l can pump out almost 300kw safely however they feared the rest of the driveline might suffer. According to the tech the roo parameters are safe and nowhere near the limits of the engine...so they put it down to 240kw at he flywheel off course.

Can anyone show me a diesel engine anywhere in the world that reliably produces 100kw per litre of displacement?

They did call it a fact right?

[Geedublya]

Can anyone show me a diesel engine anywhere in the world that reliably produces 100kw per litre of displacement?

They did call it a fact right?

The BMW M series triple turbo 3.0 puts out nearly 100kw per litre. 280kw and 740NM in fact.

300kw at the wheels from a motor that in standard form makes 180 - 183kw at the flywheel and in high performance tune in the Jag does 202kw does seem to be a bit far fetched.

BMW M Performance Line: Tri-Turbo Diesel 5-series, X5, X6 for Europe and Power Packs for U.S. X6 | Car and Driver Blog (http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-m-performance-line-tri-turbo-diesel-5-series-x5-x6-for-europe-and-power-packs-for-u-s-x6/)

[Dougal]

The BMW M series triple turbo 3.0 puts out nearly 100kw per litre. 280kw and 740NM in fact.

300kw at the wheels from a motor that in standard form makes 180 - 183kw at the flywheel and in high performance tune in the Jag does 202kw does seem to be a bit far fetched.

BMW M Performance Line: Tri-Turbo Diesel 5-series, X5, X6 for Europe and Power Packs for U.S. X6 | Car and Driver Blog (http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-m-performance-line-tri-turbo-diesel-5-series-x5-x6-for-europe-and-power-packs-for-u-s-x6/)

Yes nearly 300kw. But it has three turbos to do that. The one with two turbos only does 200kw and 600Nm. Which isn't far from the original 180kw/600Nm of the SDV6.

[*RR*]

Agreed

After having years of tuning experience in performance cars, I assume the car was individually tuned on the dyno, rather than a generic map being applied for the d4?

A lot of companies use generic maps however in mass produced cars these days the tolerances and power outputs vary considerably, not only from manufacture but how they are run in and their lives to date to the point of tune. I have seen differences of up to 40rwkw in factory cars.

If it has been tuned to the car, most engines these days will cope with a reasonable increase, however you WILL reduce the lifespan of the driveline. The weakest link you will find will be the transmission which will either need strengthening via a valve kit etc at a specialist transmission place, or regular servicing, however this does not guarantee anything. Just remember the increased power needs to go through the driveline components and being 4wd will be soaked up via the transmission or diff, whatever the weaker point.
I know there are differing opinions, and this is mine, purely based on years of experience in this area, many types of tunes even back from piggyback days, to the development of edit tunes on factory ecu's.

Enjoy the car as these tunes also,can iron out small imperfections in the factory tune give smoother power delivery, better fuel economy, tuned to personal needs and obviously more power.

Cheers

JB!!! It's fordboy!

I was wondering if you were over here since you bought your D4!

[Stuart02]

At the risk of re-opening the can, does anyone have before/after experience remapping the TDV8? I know it sounds ridiculous to ask, but I'm actually interested in better fuel economy (and therefore range) under normal conditions. Could be cheaper to strap on a couple of jerry cans? :D

Remap options I know of for the 2010 RRS TDV8 are

- Bluefin/Superchips
- Autologic
- BAS
- Roo Systems (?)

Cheers

[Tombie]

I would suggest you speak to BAS...

[CSBrisie]

I have the Roo systems ECU remap plus twin 3inch exhaust; per dyno it was an extra 37kw at wheels and I think about an extra 150nm of torque on the 4.4TDV8. Sounds sensational(!) under load. Quiet at light throttle. No measurable change in economy. I'm hoping the EGT's are lower - but no gauge to confirm - as we are towing a heavy off road van (Bushtracker 21 foot). In summary, no complaints after 20.000kms since the remap.

[Stuart02]

Thanks that's really interesting - pretty impressive. Not in the same league, but when I had my old TD5 remapped it also ran way better, and I was also impressed that the economy was unaltered, but I don't think I've heard anyone say they've actually got better economy as per the claims of many remappers. I know there's the temptation to use it if you have it, but we all know our fave cruising stretches and what we can expect...