BROCK OR WHINCUP?

[disco man]

Watching the V8s from tassie today and i was thinking to myself who would win in a race between brock at the peak of his powers or whincup. i know its always hard to compare drivers from different eras but with whincup closing in on brocks most pole positions record i was thinking is he better or is brock still the greatest of all time? What do you guys reckon.

[LandyAndy]

Despite being a Ford fan,I would rate Lowndes in the trio.
Andrew

[discovery39]

Brock,
Lowndes,
Whincup.
:D

[disco man]

Despite being a Ford fan,I would rate Lowndes in the trio.
Andrew

very good call how did i forget lowndes:( must admit i am a ford fan mate did it **** me off when 888 left ford. my all time hero is dick johnson all lot may disagree with me but the greens tuf was i think one of the toughest looking race cars ever made:D

[Ean Austral]

Even tho I'm a big fan of Loundes, I would say Whincup over Brock by a whisker and mostly because he has proven himself in both Holden and ford

Loundes very close behind.

Cheers Ean

[lewy]

I find it hard to answer this question having been born and bred in Bathurst, Refuse to have a ford in the shed and lived [somehow] through the seventies.These new kids are very good however.Brock

[pop058]

I find it hard to answer this question having been born and bred in Bathurst, Refuse to have a ford in the shed and lived [somehow] through the seventies.These new kids are very good however.Brock

Sorry to rattle your cage, but Ford owned Landrover from 2000-2008, and you own a 2003 D2A :D

[disco man]

Ok guys pull me up if i am wrong on this maybe whincup by a whisker mainly because of the strength of the drivers whincup has been up against. the current field of V8 supercar drivers is full of class names like bright, tander, winterbottom, the kelly brothers, ingall, and even his team mate lowndes but he has been the stand out driver for a good part of 6 years. where brock's rivals were not as many i guess his biggest threats were moffat and johnson both class acts but lacked the factory support of brock but 9 wins at the mountain is a record that will be hard to beat maybe never will be:D

[PAT303]

Like all forms of motor sport there isn't a ''best'' driver but a best driver/team/motor/designer with all thier ducks in a row,take away one element and it doesn't work.All the drivers mentioned are equal at thier peek.. Pat

[disco man]

Like all forms of motor sport there isn't a ''best'' driver but a best driver/team/motor/designer with all thier ducks in a row,take away one element and it doesn't work.All the drivers mentioned are equal at thier peek.. Pat

Ok then same cars, same teams, same conditions who wins? they all cant cross the line at the same time.

[lewy]

Sorry to rattle your cage, but Ford owned Landrover from 2000-2008, and you own a 2003 D2A
Touche.and its to early to rattle my cage:D

[Tank]

Ambrose and Moffat, only reason Brock won so many Bathust races was because Holden cheated and ran a small car (4 cyl. Vauxhall, stuffed with a I.L. Six and later a V8) against a full size Ford Sedan, and then they cried all the way up CAMS bum when Dick Johnson smacked Holdens behind in a Pommy 4 cyl. shopping cart, Holden sucks and always will, Regards Frank.

[scarry]

FWIW,Brock and Loundes definitely have the better people skills:D

Even though i am a true blue Brock and Loundes fan, it is very difficult to not put Whincup at the top.
To win that many races,and championships in a very competitive series is a very good effort.
Races these days are won in thousands of a second,not be half a lap,as it was in Brocks day.Remember he did win Bathurst one year by six laps.

Loundes should have won more,the double stacking cost him quite a few races and possibly a Bathurst,but thats the way the cards fall,sometimes.

There were/are many other good drivers around,they just have to have the good equipment.

[Homestar]

Brock
Whincup
lowndes

[Kev the Fridgy]

Yea, I reckon Brocky first, there is a handful that on any given day can be competitive.... but lets face it, the money being pumped into RBRA and the technology of today makes it hard to compare..... Group C and Group A cars were so much more "Seat of the pants" racing, yes they did have some big budgets late in Group A and some reasonable Technology but nothing like todays teams...... one way would be to put Whincup in a Group C car for 6 hours and see how he goes.
For the record, I am a fan of Mopar first, Ford second..... but Whincup is good, he does have the runs on the board after all

[ramblingboy42]

could Whincup drive Mt Panorama flat out without brakes for hours?

Brock did.

could Whincup win a round Australia rally one week, then win at the racetrack next week?

Brock did.

[disco man]

Yea, I reckon Brocky first, there is a handful that on any given day can be competitive.... but lets face it, the money being pumped into RBRA and the technology of today makes it hard to compare..... Group C and Group A cars were so much more "Seat of the pants" racing, yes they did have some big budgets late in Group A and some reasonable Technology but nothing like todays teams...... one way would be to put Whincup in a Group C car for 6 hours and see how he goes.
For the record, I am a fan of Mopar first, Ford second..... but Whincup is good, he does have the runs on the board after all

good point there mate those group C things were monsters very close to road going cars. Seeing the greens tuf falcon down at DJR at yatala complete with sheepskin seat covers, factory radio nothing like todays cars but the group A's were strangled under the stupid rules at the time and yeah i would like to see whincup in a old school BIG BANGER. must admit i am a closet mopar fan my first set of wheels was a 1969 VG valiant safari wagon 225 slant 3 on the tree, drum brakes and no seatbelts what a beast. even had a VH with a 318 but the 225 used heaps more fuel:o

[discovery39]

[quote=Tank;2116171]Ambrose and Moffat, only reason Brock won so many Bathust races was because Holden cheated and ran a small car (4 cyl. Vauxhall, stuffed with a I.L. Six and later a V8) against a full size Ford Sedan, and then they cried all the way up CAMS bum when Dick Johnson smacked Holdens behind in a Pommy 4 cyl. shopping cart, Holden sucks and always will, Regards Frank.[/quot

! Seriously. This is what u believe. For ****s sake, u clearly haven't got a clue

[CraigE]

Whincup the supercar Vettel.
Says it all., not a patch on Brock.

[CraigE]

Ambrose and Moffat, only reason Brock won so many Bathust races was because Holden cheated and ran a small car (4 cyl. Vauxhall, stuffed with a I.L. Six and later a V8) against a full size Ford Sedan, and then they cried all the way up CAMS bum when Dick Johnson smacked Holdens behind in a Pommy 4 cyl. shopping cart, Holden sucks and always will, Regards Frank.

You are kidding, holden ran an underpowered car that handled and you call that unfair against a GTHO? You are just delerious. How do you work oit Holden cheated? The races were open to any car sold in Australia that sold over a certain amount.
What about the fact the Dick Johnson only won races when he ran a Falcon 500 odd kilos lighter than anyone else as some moron lodged the weight of a Falocm ute instead of the sedan. If this did not occur he would not have won too many races and would have gotten nowhere near Brock in any race.Not to mention at the time of the Sierras you were supposed to be able to buy one. Ever tried buying a POS Sierra let alone a Cosworth in Australia.

[disco man]

! Seriously. This is what u believe. For ****s sake, u clearly haven't got a clue[/QUOTE]

WOW mate:eek: dont be shy now:p

[disco man]

You are kidding, holden ran an underpowered car that handled and you call that unfair against a GTHO? You are just delerious. How do you work oit Holden cheated? The races were open to any car sold in Australia that sold over a certain amount.
What about the fact the Dick Johnson only won races when he ran a Falcon 500 odd kilos lighter than anyone else as some moron lodged the weight of a Falocm ute instead of the sedan. If this did not occur he would not have won too many races and would have gotten nowhere near Brock in any race.Not to mention at the time of the Sierras you were supposed to be able to buy one. Ever tried buying a POS Sierra let alone a Cosworth in Australia.

Bugger had no idea about the weight issue with the falcons:o dick has always been a hero of mine got me thinking twice about how i feel about him now maybe he wasnt as good as i thought:(

[Debacle]

Brock would never have done a dive bomb on his team mate like Whincup did today. He was never going to make that corner without smacking into Lowndes to slow him down.

[TD50WA]

I guess it's already been said sort of, but you really cannot compare the drivers. Different times, different cars and today's drivers have personal trainers to keep them fit, budgets that are just rude etc.....racing today is a much more professional organised system, tracks are much different in design(type of surfacing, curbings etc)safety features such as run offs etc.
Cars were what you could buy...mostly, not the controlled packages to keep teams even in performance.

Brocky will always be a legend regardless of who wins what in the future, and the driver who beats his record will be a legend in his own right....

IMO, you can only compare drivers who race together in the same period because for drivers from different times, you do a disservice to one or the other to suggest either is better or worse than the other.

RIP Brocky, c'mon Loundesy.....:D

Cheers all
Kev

[1950landy]

Like all forms of motor sport there isn't a ''best'' driver but a best driver/team/motor/designer with all thier ducks in a row,take away one element and it doesn't work.All the drivers mentioned are equal at thier peek.. Pat
The one element is money . When Brock had unlimited funds he was on top , & the same with Johnson & now its Red Bull. You need money to buy the best parts .

[AndyG]

What was the Bathurst where Brock came from behind in pouring rain and got a win. The work of a champion.

Rip brockie

[disco man]

Brock would never have done a dive bomb on his team mate like Whincup did today. He was never going to make that corner without smacking into Lowndes to slow him down.

Right you are mate. the post race interview didnt do much for me in terms of lowndes standing in whincups eyes as he said the move was on. i read that as i dont give a **** about lowndes or the team its all about me. also brock always made time for the fans last year when the race was up here whincup was just rude and you could tell he didnt want to be there but lowndes never stop smiling the kids and adults just loved him.

[ramblingboy42]

and nobody has ever bred a Border Collie like Peter Brock did.

[Keithy P38]

Brock is the all-time legend. I think Whincup is the creme of the current crop, but as mentioned above, I think red bull is pushing the good bits to Whincup and there's some secret squirrel business on the radios during races that we don't hear!

In my opinion, as a professional and public image, Lowndes is the only other person to be as good as Brock. Whincup is awesome, but I would be too if that was my job and I was getting paid 5 times what I'm earning now!

Cheers
Keithy

[PAT303]

They'd split the wins,I'd guess the one that got the jump at the start would get there with the others on his bumper.At that level the difference between first and second comes down to the factors I mentioned earlier. Pat

[Pickles2]

could Whincup drive Mt Panorama flat out without brakes for hours?

Brock did.

could Whincup win a round Australia rally one week, then win at the racetrack next week?

Brock did.
Very true mate, very true.
I knew Brock very well, & among the current drivers, Whincup is my favourite.
Over a period of time, Jamie may well eclipse Brock, but IMHO, at this stage, he still has a way to go.
Pickles.

[disco man]

Very true mate, very true.
I knew Brock very well, & among the current drivers, Whincup is my favourite.
Over a period of time, Jamie may well eclipse Brock, but IMHO, at this stage, he still has a way to go.
Pickles.

very well said mate. the only time i ever got to meet the great man was in the early 80s at lake side when i was a young fella it is something i have never forgotten even after signing hundreds of autographs he made feel like i was the most important kid there that day. he had time for everybody and that is something i think has rubbed off on lowndes and is one thing whincup needs to do better. brock also had a connection with whatever he was driving whether it be a austin7, shopping trolley, VC commodore it did'nt matter if it wheels and a engine he could get the best out of it. he won races with some ****boxes because he had that mechanical sympathy:D

[Tank]

[quote=Tank;2116171]Ambrose and Moffat, only reason Brock won so many Bathust races was because Holden cheated and ran a small car (4 cyl. Vauxhall, stuffed with a I.L. Six and later a V8) against a full size Ford Sedan, and then they cried all the way up CAMS bum when Dick Johnson smacked Holdens behind in a Pommy 4 cyl. shopping cart, Holden sucks and always will, Regards Frank.[/quot

! Seriously. This is what u believe. For ****s sake, u clearly haven't got a clue
Well lets see you prove it wrong, why didn't GM run the HQ Holden against the the equivalent Ford Falcon, why did GM run first a Vauxhall (torana) and then a 4cyl. German Opel (commodore) with engines not originally designed for them.
Could it be that they were sick of getting their arse kicked by Ford Falcons, could it be that they figured a car half the size of the Falcon and the HQ with a large engine, same size tyres would have a better chance of winning.
As far as not having a clue, that's reserved for GM fans that think Holdens are an Australian car and Bleat like the sheep that they are when Ford follows GM's lead and brought in the pommy Sierras.
The proof of the pudding is in the next sheep off the block, he states that holden ran an underpowered car, what a joker, 300+ horsepower in a 1 tonne car against a 380 hp 1.8 tonne car, both on the same size tyres, and brakes, no contest.
How many GM monaros could you buy in Australia with a 4-bolt main block, I worked for a team that raced a Monaro, unfortunately this team was a privateer and only got the inferior Chevrolet engine with 2 bolt mains, the engine didn't make it BTW.
If the Sierras weren't homolagated why where they allowed to race, FORDS are the innovators the rest are sheep trying to catch up, Regards Frank.

[CraigE]

Bugger had no idea about the weight issue with the falcons:o dick has always been a hero of mine got me thinking twice about how i feel about him now maybe he wasnt as good as i thought:(

Hey I still have respect for DJ and is one of the greats. He did not cheat, but was the only one to read the rules and discover the weight discrepancy. I have just finished reading his autobiography. It was a good read and can recommend it. He was and is still complimentary of Brock. My main point was be careful who you accuse of cheating with the other poster saying the XU1s cheated. Far from it the XU1 did not cheat and starting to drag up that the XU1 was based on a Vauxhall, so what. The Falcons were based on American Falcons.
Dick Johnson was still a great driver, is a great man and though I am Holden he is one of my favourites and one person I respect. I even made sure my son named Brock had a photo taken with him last year in Perth. He is a genuine legend and when you read about his struggles and lack of team backing it does put things into perspective. Plus the way he was screwed over several times. Gets my respect not just as a driver but as a human being.
There are only a few of the current drivers that could hold their own in older cars or cars with problems and Whincup is not one. Lowndes is one, Ingall maybe another. Look at the stas over the last year or so, every time Lowndes gets in the groove the Red Bull team seem to cause a technical error that allows Whincup to make up ground. Tell me that is coincidence in so many occasions. We all know Lowndes has never had the same car in this team, this year when he seems to maybe have a similar car he has proven he is much faster than Whincup (Vettel).

[Tank]

You are kidding, holden ran an underpowered car that handled and you call that unfair against a GTHO? You are just delerious. How do you work oit Holden cheated? The races were open to any car sold in Australia that sold over a certain amount.
What about the fact the Dick Johnson only won races when he ran a Falcon 500 odd kilos lighter than anyone else as some moron lodged the weight of a Falocm ute instead of the sedan. If this did not occur he would not have won too many races and would have gotten nowhere near Brock in any race.Not to mention at the time of the Sierras you were supposed to be able to buy one. Ever tried buying a POS Sierra let alone a Cosworth in Australia.
Here's another load of crap, tell me and all the others here how much does a Ford Falcon sedan (of the type Johnson drove) weigh and how much does a Falcon Ute weigh and tell me how, (what in your mind is a fact) did Johnson get away with it, please no more bull****, Regards Frank.

[CraigE]

[quote=discovery39;2116335]
Well lets see you prove it wrong, why didn't GM run the HQ Holden against the the equivalent Ford Falcon, why did GM run first a Vauxhall (torana) and then a 4cyl. German Opel (commodore) with engines not originally designed for them.
Could it be that they were sick of getting their arse kicked by Ford Falcons, could it be that they figured a car half the size of the Falcon and the HQ with a large engine, same size tyres would have a better chance of winning.
As far as not having a clue, that's reserved for GM fans that think Holdens are an Australian car and Bleat like the sheep that they are when Ford follows GM's lead and brought in the pommy Sierras.
The proof of the pudding is in the next sheep off the block, he states that holden ran an underpowered car, what a joker, 300+ horsepower in a 1 tonne car against a 380 hp 1.8 tonne car, both on the same size tyres, and brakes, no contest.
How many GM monaros could you buy in Australia with a 4-bolt main block, I worked for a team that raced a Monaro, unfortunately this team was a privateer and only got the inferior Chevrolet engine with 2 bolt mains, the engine didn't make it BTW.
If the Sierras weren't homolagated why where they allowed to race, FORDS are the innovators the rest are sheep trying to catch up, Regards Frank.

The reason Ford were allowed to race the Sierras was that the organisers at the time were pushing towards the failed international rule category, so maybe you want to get your facts straight. The Sierras and later the Nissans were allowed to race under these conditions and di not have to meet the same criteria as the Commodores. The Sierras that generally won had to also cheat with doccumented illegal fuel, panels and engine management. These cars were never on par with the Commodores costing many times more than the existing Touring Car Commodores. With the extra technology they should have won and won easy but they didnt.
The XY GTHO was actually more like around 500 hp, do a bit of research. So what about the XU1 the same car could be bought on road, the category was open to all cars. Holden went down the handling path and Ford went down the horsepower, evened itself out a bit in the category.
Ford innovators, are you on drugs? Nothing came out of Australia it was all US designed, just adapted to Australia. At least the XU1 used an Australian designed and built engine, drive train, suspension etc. The Falcon used all US designed car and parts. Most teams even sourced their Ford parts from the US. Do a bit of history on these cars.
The HQ was never designed as a race car and was never going to be a competitive race car, period. The GTHO was specifically designed to go fast and race. We can ask the same question of Ford, why they went Sierras and later Mustangs? This was due to the international rules. The XD/XE were far superior cars putting out around 560hp, but the rule changes occurred meaning change. At least Holden stayed with an Australian built car.
See you have not mentioned the A9X??? You may need to go back and actually look at history and check the ratio of wins Holden to Ford and the Falcon loses out big time.
Seems to be a matter of sour grapes tat a small 6 cylinder beat a GTHO on the track.
Also do some research on the Commodore, yes it had Opel origins, but was redesigned from the ground up to meet Australian conditions, with only some of the body panels and interior parts being the same, there are a couple of good books on this that will show you the differences.
Read some history full stop.
This of course does not mean that I do not like GTHOs either I like them all but am basically a Holden person.
The big thing that will come up over and over again is the so called Super Roo was actually Super Rooted by a liitle Lion Cub.:cool::wasntme::twisted:

[discovery39]

[quote=Tank;2116579]

The reason Ford were allowed to race the Sierras was that the organisers at the time were pushing towards the failed international rule category, so maybe you want to get your facts straight. The Sierras and later the Nissans were allowed to race under these conditions and di not have to meet the same criteria as the Commodores. The Sierras that generally won had to also cheat with doccumented illegal fuel, panels and engine management. These cars were never on par with the Commodores costing many times more than the existing Touring Car Commodores. With the extra technology they should have won and won easy but they didnt.
The XY GTHO was actually more like around 500 hp, do a bit of research. So what about the XU1 the same car could be bought on road, the category was open to all cars. Holden went down the handling path and Ford went down the horsepower, evened itself out a bit in the category.
Ford innovators, are you on drugs? Nothing came out of Australia it was all US designed, just adapted to Australia. At least the XU1 used an Australian designed and built engine, drive train, suspension etc. The Falcon used all US designed car and parts. Most teams even sourced their Ford parts from the US. Do a bit of history on these cars.
The HQ was never designed as a race car and was never going to be a competitive race car, period. The GTHO was specifically designed to go fast and race. We can ask the same question of Ford, why they went Sierras and later Mustangs? This was due to the international rules. The XD/XE were far superior cars putting out around 560hp, but the rule changes occurred meaning change. At least Holden stayed with an Australian built car.
See you have not mentioned the A9X??? You may need to go back and actually look at history and check the ratio of wins Holden to Ford and the Falcon loses out big time.
Seems to be a matter of sour grapes tat a small 6 cylinder beat a GTHO on the track.
Also do some research on the Commodore, yes it had Opel origins, but was redesigned from the ground up to meet Australian conditions, with only some of the body panels and interior parts being the same, there are a couple of good books on this that will show you the differences.
Read some history full stop.
This of course does not mean that I do not like GTHOs either I like them all but am basically a Holden person.
The big thing that will come up over and over again is the so called Super Roo was actually Super Rooted by a liitle Lion Cub.:cool::wasntme::twisted:

You've quoted wrong. I didn't write all that. Would take too long:p

[CraigE]

Here's another load of crap, tell me and all the others here how much does a Ford Falcon sedan (of the type Johnson drove) weigh and how much does a Falcon Ute weigh and tell me how, (what in your mind is a fact) did Johnson get away with it, please no more bull****, Regards Frank.

Frank,
This shows you know nothing. Rounded the average weight of the Commodores and Falcons in Sedan was around 1500kgs. I would have to re-read to determine the weight advantage but it was somwhere around 300-500kgs
The figure put into CAMS for the Falcon XD was the ute weight, now i would have to look up the exact weight but was around 300 plus kgs lighter than the Commodore and other XD Falcons. DJ has admitted to this, though it was not him that put the weights to CAMS, but he read the manual cover to cover and discovered the weight discrepancy and used it (with in the current rules). No one else did until the car was weighed at one race with no fuel and the secret was discovered. The car was meant to be weighed at full fuel to hide the weight differences some what. Once discovered the other Falcons stripped weight away and the Commodores were given a concession. From that point forward the XD could not compete and DJs advantage was over.
Read his autobiography. DJ a Ford man that became a Ford man not by choice but by circumstance. He wanted to be a factory Holden driver.
You Ford fruit loops will just never get over being beaten by a superior designed car that did not rely on horsepower alone.

[disco man]

Hey I still have respect for DJ and is one of the greats. He did not cheat, but was the only one to read the rules and discover the weight discrepancy. I have just finished reading his autobiography. It was a good read and can recommend it. He was and is still complimentary of Brock. My main point was be careful who you accuse of cheating with the other poster saying the XU1s cheated. Far from it the XU1 did not cheat and starting to drag up that the XU1 was based on a Vauxhall, so what. The Falcons were based on American Falcons.
Dick Johnson was still a great driver, is a great man and though I am Holden he is one of my favourites and one person I respect. I even made sure my son named Brock had a photo taken with him last year in Perth. He is a genuine legend and when you read about his struggles and lack of team backing it does put things into perspective. Plus the way he was screwed over several times. Gets my respect not just as a driver but as a human being.
There are only a few of the current drivers that could hold their own in older cars or cars with problems and Whincup is not one. Lowndes is one, Ingall maybe another. Look at the stas over the last year or so, every time Lowndes gets in the groove the Red Bull team seem to cause a technical error that allows Whincup to make up ground. Tell me that is coincidence in so many occasions. We all know Lowndes has never had the same car in this team, this year when he seems to maybe have a similar car he has proven he is much faster than Whincup (Vettel).
awesome thanks bud faith restored:) yeah he did cop some kicks in the nuts but in the Queenslander spirit he kept going. brave man putting the family house on the line to go racing i have done the tour of his current workshop a couple of times and compared to the places tru-blue and greens tuf were built DJR has come a long way. the day he had to sell his old race cars to the bowdens must have broken his heart the poor bastard. and i think he made the most powerful sierra's in the world ahead of all the very large euro race teams not bad for a small team working out of a very small workshop

[discovery39]

This is all getting too confusing........
Hi Tank, you clearly have some of that blue blood running through ya veins.
Point is, neither of us can prove otherwise.:p

[Jeff]

This whole 'my manufacturer is good and your manufacturer is evil' crap is the reason I stopped watching sedan racing and started watching bikes. Bike fans would rather watch a win by 0.006 of a second than by six laps and are in it for the atmosphere not the flag waving. I actually won tickets to a V8SC event once and found it more interesting checking their pit set ups than the racing.

Jeff

:rocket:

[disco man]

Couple of Qs whats the name of that book craig E? and can anyone tell me what stone brothers racing is up to these days?

[CraigE]

There seems to be some misquoted figures:
The XU1 was around 240bhp race trim.
Road going versions were 125 - 190 bhp depending on model 161-202 engines.
The GTHO was around 300 bhp in road trim and 380bhp in race trim with reports of far more being extracted by teams and recently admitted to running parts that were not strictly stock.
Valiant Charger E38 280 hp in 265 version.

There may be some confusion over the XU1 Rallycross version which was supercharged and produced 329 bhp (I have personally seen this car). This was never a touring car and Brock never raced the XU2 instead drove the

So I would think it was actually a fair trade off and comparison. But on tracks like Bathurst technically the GTHO should have been superior but wasnt when it came to handling and brakes and ultimately is whatt let them down.

[CraigE]

Couple of Qs whats the name of that book craig E? and can anyone tell me what stone brothers racing is up to these days?

Stone Brothers I think are in a Mercedes AMG team now are they not? Erebus motorsport run by Betty I think. I quite like her and her spirit, but dont like mercs much.

The book is just "Dick Johnson" by Dick Johnson and James Phelps and should be available at most bookstores. I picked it up when travelling to ****et at the airport bookstore.

[Jeff]

So I would think it was actually a fair trade off and comparison. But on tracks like Bathurst technically the GTHO should have been superior but wasnt when it came to handling and brakes and ultimately is whatt let them down.

Not forgetting the need for less fuel stops.

I like reading about the way they all cheated, or bent the rules in the old days. They say Harry 'The Fox' Firth was made head scrutineer at CAMS because he was the best at it.

I got given the Dick Johnson book for Christmas, I have only just started it. Must find time to read the rest.

Jeff

:rocket:

[disco man]

This whole 'my manufacturer is good and your manufacturer is evil' crap is the reason I stopped watching sedan racing and started watching bikes. Bike fans would rather watch a win by 0.006 of a second than by six laps and are in it for the atmosphere not the flag waving. I actually won tickets to a V8SC event once and found it more interesting checking their pit set ups than the racing.

Jeff

:rocket:

I don't know about that one mate i have been down to philip island twice once for the super bikes and once for moto gp and i saw alot of honda/yamaha fans giving to the ducati fans it was getting quiet heated large itialian fan base were starting to get very ****ed off:D

[CraigE]

This whole 'my manufacturer is good and your manufacturer is evil' crap is the reason I stopped watching sedan racing and started watching bikes. Bike fans would rather watch a win by 0.006 of a second than by six laps and are in it for the atmosphere not the flag waving. I actually won tickets to a V8SC event once and found it more interesting checking their pit set ups than the racing.

Jeff

:rocket:

Jeff,
I agree with some of your sentiment. While I like the V8supercars the whole Holden vs Ford thing with cars you could not buy is a bit boring.
The old days of class racing with cars you could actually buy was better. The cars were rather different and teams went down different paths either focusing on hp or handling. Now they are the same cars with different badges.

[AndyG]

Well that didn't take long to get off topic

[Jeff]

Jeff,
I agree with some of your sentiment. While I like the V8supercars the whole Holden vs Ford thing with cars you could not buy is a bit boring.
The old days of class racing with cars you could actually buy was better. The cars were rather different and teams went down different paths either focusing on hp or handling. Now they are the same cars with different badges.

To go totally off topic, I prefer open wheelers if I had to watch cars. They sadly are sidelined while V8SC has taken all the tv and sponsor time from other parts of motorsport. And yes you can buy one, you just can't drive them on the road.

Jeff

:rocket:

[disco man]

Stone Brothers I think are in a Mercedes AMG team now are they not? Erebus motorsport run by Betty I think. I quite like her and her spirit, but dont like mercs much.

The book is just "Dick Johnson" by Dick Johnson and James Phelps and should be available at most bookstores. I picked it up when travelling to ****et at the airport bookstore.

sweet thanks mate. so at a guess erebus is run by stone brothers? and betty is the owner? agree betty is cool saw a special on her and the good thing is the other teams have welcomed her in what is very much a male dominated sport. if stone brothers are involved it wont be long till they are at the pointy end those boys are brilliant car builders. ambrose and ingall proved that:)

[disco man]

To go totally off topic, I prefer open wheelers if I had to watch cars. They sadly are sidelined while V8SC has taken all the tv and sponsor time from other parts of motorsport. And yes you can buy one, you just can't drive them on the road.

Jeff

:rocket:

Can't even recall the last time i saw formula ford/holden on tv sbs speedweek used to show them not sure if they do anymore?

[disco man]

Do we reckon skaife gets a mention in the brock/whincup/lowndes argument? very impressive record and driver in his own right.

[Ancient Mariner]

Jim Richards Anybody who can drive a Porsche well in the wet gets my vote

[disco man]

Jim Richards Anybody who can drive a Porsche well in the wet gets my vote

Ah yes gentleman Jim absolute legend raced through the 70s, 80s, 90s and still very competitive today and also raced a huge variety of cars all types all over the world:)

[rangietragic]

Geeze i'm glad i'm not a ford or holden fan:p.Brock was good in his day against the other drivers of his day.How much money played a part i'll let the fanatics argue that one.We always seem to think our heros were better than any of the current crop of sports people,but you can't compare them.Too many variables.Personly i cheer on lowndes,then whincup.No particular reason.

[AndyG]

Off topic again,
I love the story in Jackie Stewarts, in his autoBio, pulled up by the Italian police fanging a Ferrari, " Who do you think you are Fangio ?" REPLY,JS points to passenger, " No that would be him"

[Kev the Fridgy]

Hmmm brock, Lowndes, D.J., Rusty,... Oh and one more.. Larry, Larry, Larry,..... seriously, what Larry Perkins did with a 308 and 5 stud wheels while everyone else was running small Blocks and center lok hubs is pretty bloody impressive, no bull**** no excuses just says it likes it is

[Slunnie]

Hmmm brock, Lowndes, D.J., Rusty,... Oh and one more.. Larry, Larry, Larry,..... seriously, what Larry Perkins did with a 308 and 5 stud wheels while everyone else was running small Blocks and center lok hubs is pretty bloody impressive, no bull**** no excuses just says it likes it is

Larry was a great driver at all levels from Formula Vee to the top, but his exceptional engineering was the reason he was doing this. His interpretation of the rule and implantation of these rules in the development of most notably inlet ports was a marvel. Centre locks.... Well, he just didn't trust them.

[Slunnie]

My opinion is that Brocky was a better driver over Whincup. I've been watching Whincup race since he was a junior karter and he is still definitely a natural driver of the highest calibre who mixes it with the best.

Brock on the other hand is from a different era. I have no doubt the racing is just as competitive then and now although parity issues were a factor back then in the "group" days and sometimes it was good for Brock and somedays not. The thing is, a drivers competitive career builds, peaks and declines. They all do it, but in Brocks day they only raced a handful of races each year plus bathurst, and a race meeting was 1 race. Brocks competitive career spanned a lot of years, something that is required for that number of wins. Today you can get 3 months worth of old school wins in a weekend and require almost no mechanical empathy apart from keeping it going - mind you this may change with COTF, the way panels and doors fall of them. Also,in Brocks time the driver had to be not only an excellent racer, but also an excellent test driver to develop a car that had no or minimal telemetry that let the chassis engineers know what to do before the car has even come back into the pits.

Keeping in mind that comparisons between Whincup and Brock are based on relativity between them and their peers of their era and rather than saying Brocks peers were weak, I would argue that actually Brock was a more complete driver who experienced exceptional competitive longevity compared to any of his peers.

[scarry]

Hmmm brock, Lowndes, D.J., Rusty,... Oh and one more.. Larry, Larry, Larry,..... seriously, what Larry Perkins did with a 308 and 5 stud wheels while everyone else was running small Blocks and center lok hubs is pretty bloody impressive, no bull**** no excuses just says it likes it is

And in his day,very,very good in the wet,and entertaining to watch.

Those wet Bathursts in those days were fantastic entertainment.

And another for gentleman Jim,also very good in the wet and a fantastic driver in many different classes.

John Bowe was also another one who should be mentioned.

[Clarkey]

Remember when Lowndes started at HRT, Brocky was his mentor. Craig definitely has the personality over every other driver in V8s today. While this current bunch are great Brock is still called "the King of the Mountain". His record at Bathurst and Sandown are unrivalled. He could drive the wheels off of just about anything as '78 in the A9X proved winning by 6 laps and breaking the lap record on the last lap. Don't forget 85? against the Walkinshaw XJS Jags, Christ he was chasing them down until a piddly little single row timing chain let him down. I had the pleasure of meeting Brocky a few times and he was always happy to sign an autograph or have a photo taken. He is a LEGEND! But he will always be an Australian legend, when he raced at Lemans with Perkins, Brock was considered the co-driver.....not enough success overseas..............Can any of the current crop claim legend status when they only race in their own backyard?

[CraigE]

sweet thanks mate. so at a guess erebus is run by stone brothers? and betty is the owner? agree betty is cool saw a special on her and the good thing is the other teams have welcomed her in what is very much a male dominated sport. if stone brothers are involved it wont be long till they are at the pointy end those boys are brilliant car builders. ambrose and ingall proved that:)

Davison got a fourth today for Erebus and Betty.

[CraigE]

So many drivers could be listed. All great in their own right. A lot depends on circumstance, era, funding, teams, team structure etc etc

[Clarkey]

Well done Will Davison.......Betty has a few dollars but I reckon Redbull spends more lol

[Slunnie]

Remember when Lowndes started at HRT, Brocky was his mentor. Craig definitely has the personality over every other driver in V8s today. While this current bunch are great Brock is still called "the King of the Mountain". His record at Bathurst and Sandown are unrivalled. He could drive the wheels off of just about anything as '78 in the A9X proved winning by 6 laps and breaking the lap record on the last lap. Don't forget 85? against the Walkinshaw XJS Jags, Christ he was chasing them down until a piddly little single row timing chain let him down. I had the pleasure of meeting Brocky a few times and he was always happy to sign an autograph or have a photo taken. He is a LEGEND! But he will always be an Australian legend, when he raced at Lemans with Perkins, Brock was considered the co-driver.....not enough success overseas..............Can any of the current crop claim legend status when they only race in their own backyard?
Some did, James Courtney had and exceptional and brief international career which was sadly terminated during a F1 test. I'm not sure why he didn't continue to pursuit driving in Europe and decided to race domestically, especially at his age and with his skill in open wheelers.

[Clarkey]

Some did, James Courtney had and exceptional and brief international career which was sadly terminated during a F1 test. I'm not sure why he didn't continue to pursuit driving in Europe and decided to race domestically, especially at his age and with his skill in open wheelers.

Yeah Courtney had the talent as did Ingall and Skaife in recent memory. Others have gone Indy car as it seems if you have talent alone you can make it. Webber had a brilliant management team and I think was backed by David Campese. Shame the race team wasn't as genuine as his backers. Ambrose needs some luck, first 200mph qualifying lap in a restrictor plate car, always seems to get cleaned up in someone else's accident when running well

[uninformed]

Like all forms of motor sport there isn't a ''best'' driver but a best driver/team/motor/designer with all thier ducks in a row,take away one element and it doesn't work.All the drivers mentioned are equal at thier peek.. Pat

with the exception of Jim Clark :D

[uninformed]

Remember when Lowndes started at HRT, Brocky was his mentor. Craig definitely has the personality over every other driver in V8s today. While this current bunch are great Brock is still called "the King of the Mountain". His record at Bathurst and Sandown are unrivalled. He could drive the wheels off of just about anything as '78 in the A9X proved winning by 6 laps and breaking the lap record on the last lap. Don't forget 85? against the Walkinshaw XJS Jags, Christ he was chasing them down until a piddly little single row timing chain let him down. I had the pleasure of meeting Brocky a few times and he was always happy to sign an autograph or have a photo taken. He is a LEGEND! But he will always be an Australian legend, when he raced at Lemans with Perkins, Brock was considered the co-driver.....not enough success overseas..............Can any of the current crop claim legend status when they only race in their own backyard?

what car did Perkins/Brock race?

Did Larry race a Ferrari there back in the day?

[CraigE]

what car did Perkins/Brock race?

Did Larry race a Ferrari there back in the day?

Porsche 956 Brock / Perkins.
Brock / Moffat took a Commodore to Spa.

[CraigE]

The difference is drivers like Brock could nurse a damaged or substandard car to a win. The current crop of drivers would limp back into the pits and have a cry.
Look at the Brock / Sampson L34 that was nursed home.

[Hoges]

It can never be "measured" to get a real estimate... It's all hypothetical with no correct answer...just our prejudices :eek::wasntme:

what I did find "most" interesting was that at one point today in the scramble for pole position, the top 10 drivers were separated by less than 0.5 sec for a total lap time of 51 seconds... or thereabouts. With all of the variables involved it's the sum of the parts...

I'd like to see them put the drivers names in a hat and allocate them identically tuned cars straight off the production line (like a celebrity challenge!)... now that would be interesting!:twisted:

[sdt463]

Sorry to rattle your cage, but Ford owned Landrover from 2000-2008, and you own a 2003 D2A
No the TD5's are BMW models. :D :wasntme:

[Clarkey]

Brock also raced a BMW in the early 70s at Spa, Larry raced some real ****ty F1 cars including the story of tearing a whole car down on a tarp after practice and rebuilding it to qualifying the best the car ever had.

But, the only driver to have ever won the world drivers championship and constructors championship in a car of his own design with a substantially smaller budget was our own Sir Jack Brabham in the Repco-Brabham.......think the is some family history somewhere between the Repco engine and V8 LandRover engines......2nd cousins maybe?

[Tank]

Frank,
This shows you know nothing. Rounded the average weight of the Commodores and Falcons in Sedan was around 1500kgs. I would have to re-read to determine the weight advantage but it was somwhere around 300-500kgs
The figure put into CAMS for the Falcon XD was the ute weight, now i would have to look up the exact weight but was around 300 plus kgs lighter than the Commodore and other XD Falcons. DJ has admitted to this, though it was not him that put the weights to CAMS, but he read the manual cover to cover and discovered the weight discrepancy and used it (with in the current rules). No one else did until the car was weighed at one race with no fuel and the secret was discovered. The car was meant to be weighed at full fuel to hide the weight differences some what. Once discovered the other Falcons stripped weight away and the Commodores were given a concession. From that point forward the XD could not compete and DJs advantage was over.
Read his autobiography. DJ a Ford man that became a Ford man not by choice but by circumstance. He wanted to be a factory Holden driver.
You Ford fruit loops will just never get over being beaten by a superior designed car that did not rely on horsepower alone.
Well Craig you really are showing what an ignoramus you really are, you make up **** as you go and post it as fact, a few facts for you to digest.
From the XA Ford Falcon right up until now Falcons were designed by Australians in Australia.
Lets see you name how many GM's were designed here by Australians (except for the ugly Monaro).
Holden didn't race the HQ because GM were too gutless to compete on even ground.
Even St. Brock got caught cheating, magnesium inlet manifolds, Manganese steel front suspension arms, you really have no clue if you believe GM didn't cheat, and big time, GM said they were out of racing and used the front of the holden dealers team.
Have a look at the gear GM run in their current Supercars, total copies of Fords V8 engine, Harrop gearboxes, Ford diffs, what a joke.
BTW, every time one of these threads on Holden vs. Ford comes I always reel in some catches, but you have taken the bait, hook, line, sinker and even the rod, but even then Holdens are still crap, Regards Frank.

[disco man]

Hmmm brock, Lowndes, D.J., Rusty,... Oh and one more.. Larry, Larry, Larry,..... seriously, what Larry Perkins did with a 308 and 5 stud wheels while everyone else was running small Blocks and center lok hubs is pretty bloody impressive, no bull**** no excuses just says it likes it is

Very impressive engineer/driver i think there was a time in the 90s were a huge amount of the field were using perkins engineering race parts.

[Kev the Fridgy]

Well Craig you really are showing what an ignoramus you really are, you make up **** as you go and post it as fact, a few facts for you to digest.
From the XA Ford Falcon right up until now Falcons were designed by Australians in Australia.
Lets see you name how many GM's were designed here by Australians (except for the ugly Monaro).
Holden didn't race the HQ because GM were too gutless to compete on even ground.
Even St. Brock got caught cheating, magnesium inlet manifolds, Manganese steel front suspension arms, you really have no clue if you believe GM didn't cheat, and big time, GM said they were out of racing and used the front of the holden dealers team.
Have a look at the gear GM run in their current Supercars, total copies of Fords V8 engine, Harrop gearboxes, Ford diffs, what a joke.
BTW, every time one of these threads on Holden vs. Ford comes I always reel in some catches, but you have taken the bait, hook, line, sinker and even the rod, but even then Holdens are still crap, Regards Frank.


Um sorry to burst your bubble but in the current V8 S/car format (COTF) they don't use Harrop gear boxes or 9" Diff gears, they now (all cars all teams) use a transaxle from Albins Engineering, another Aussie company kicking a few goals around and about that doesn't get much publicity.


As for GM copying Fords engine design, I think your getting some seriously warped misinformation there, although a basic 90 Deg, Cross plane crank engine with push rods or O/Head cam is always going to be similar in design when capacity is restricted IMHO

[gossamer]

This video sums up Brocky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SE5fk4vXYU
Jamie wins because he has the best of everything, How many wins did Jamie have with Gary Rodgers???

[Kev the Fridgy]

It's interesting to note how relaxed he was in a car, along with Dick Johnson, when you consider the way the cars moved around and just how much movement there was within the cars. I have watched and listened to both drivers and others and still impresses me just how apparently easy they punched out decent lap times whilst commentating, pretty sure it's harder than they make it out to be. It's this sort of mental toughness that makes legends.

[pop058]

No the TD5's are BMW models. :D :wasntme:

You don't have to yell and I didn't say otherwise. I simply stated the owner of the company and the year of V8 Disco Lewy had in his shed.

[marko66]

Hi All

I am a holden man but enjoy watching the fords and chryslers too, I think Brocky was great - Moffat very good Larry Perkins was very good too, but if you compare Alan Grices record to Brockies you might get a shock, And no one has mentioned Big Rev Kev Bartlett who put together the best lap I have seen at Bathurst putting a Camaro on pole position in Hardy's Heroes in the wet.

Jim Richards was another one who was seriously quick and I would have loved to have seen John Goss factory funded.

The new guys are quick and they have their place in history too

Regards Mark

[lewy]

perhaps i will edit it to say ford badges:D

[sdt463]

You don't have to yell and I didn't say otherwise. I simply stated the owner of the company and the year of V8 Disco Lewy had in his shed.

Sorry pop didn't mean to shout and missed the v8, But the D2 will never be a Ford. Although I think the Nissan Patrol was for a while. :D Dave

[CraigE]

Well Craig you really are showing what an ignoramus you really are, you make up **** as you go and post it as fact, a few facts for you to digest.
From the XA Ford Falcon right up until now Falcons were designed by Australians in Australia.
Lets see you name how many GM's were designed here by Australians (except for the ugly Monaro).
Holden didn't race the HQ because GM were too gutless to compete on even ground.
Even St. Brock got caught cheating, magnesium inlet manifolds, Manganese steel front suspension arms, you really have no clue if you believe GM didn't cheat, and big time, GM said they were out of racing and used the front of the holden dealers team.
Have a look at the gear GM run in their current Supercars, total copies of Fords V8 engine, Harrop gearboxes, Ford diffs, what a joke.
BTW, every time one of these threads on Holden vs. Ford comes I always reel in some catches, but you have taken the bait, hook, line, sinker and even the rod, but even then Holdens are still crap, Regards Frank.

Lets at least keep this good natured, we are not talking life altering issues. First show me what **** I have made up? Will be unlikely as most is documented fact. Not sure what you mean by reel in, just putting the record straight.
Hang on we were talking GTHOs so XR,XT,XW,XY shapes all based on American Falcons. They may have been so called designed here , but used everything off US or South American Fords. The XA,XB and XC while probablly the most original also used similar panels and design influences from existing American cars including the Mustang, Torino, Ranchero ute and even Mexican Maverick, engines and drive trains. I have posted pictures of these American / Mexican cars before. many of the panels were borrowed from early 70s Torino's & Mustangs , in fact many are a modified swap and used by Americans to build or maintain Mad Max interceptor replicas. A few Torinos have even been turned into replicas. Maybe graft a Torino and a Mustang and an XA appears.
Holdens not Australian designed, they all were, from the FX through, but also used designs and parts from other manufacturers under the same banner, same as Ford, Chrysler and many more. There are very few original designs from the ground up. There is nothing like a LH and LX Torana from another manufacturer, Monaros, VN Commodores on wards.Holden actually sold these cars back to the US from the VN onwards. No Australian Ford has done this. Vauxhalls have been mentioned as a base for earlier Toranas, Opel also made similar with an Ascona that also turned into an early Commodore style as well (VB).
I at least do my research on all makes and know the background.
GM using HDT as a back door, shows your ignorance. When GM pulled out of motor racing here a group of local dealers came together and started HDT, then on selling it to Brock. GM through Holden decided later to get inolved from a supply point only initially and then tried to buy back HDT and when they could not started HSV / HRT with the help of Walkinshaw.
I have never said Holden have not cheated they all have at some point. Moffat and DJ both went to the states and brought back parts that were not strictly legal.
Copy of the Ford engine, really? I think not. The Ford engine actually copied the Chev back in the 80s when they went from 5.7 to the 5 litre Mustang engine.
Typical Ford lover, does not even know the marques history. :p:wasntme::angel:
You Ford guys still cant get over being beaten by a little smaller engined car, that simple. You just dont seem to get touring car racing in those days was class racing. That someone took a different tact than horsepower just seems to be unacceptable to you. They could have always brought a big block Chevelle or Nova over. :cool::twisted:

Oh and now to admit when I am wrong. I quoted the official HP figures of the road and race XYGTHO, which are correct at 300hp and 380hp respectively. I did mention that some may have been producing more HP and I think I said around 500hp, I was wrong it was 450HP in Allan Moffats, A little above the supposed 380 hp that they would own up to at the time. Makes the XU1 even more of a giant slayer. I should have remembered this of course as I was actually offered this vehicle to buy in the mid 80's but did not have the cash as I was an apprentice. Lets say it was significantly less than what it is valued at now. http://www.bowdensown.com.au/allan-moffats-xy-gtho

Now by no means do not get me wrong I do like Falcons, spent a lot of my youth in XY, XA, XB, XCs. Have even owned XD and XE Falcons.

Have a look at the 69-71 Torino and honestly tell me you cannot see XA Coupe lines just to rubs some salt in. :angel::angel:

Ford Torino 428 Cobra Jet photos, picture # 15 (http://gomotors.net/Ford/Ford-Torino-428-Cobra-Jet/photos.html?pic=15)

Or 1970 Ford torino about half way down page

Ford Torino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe even 71 Torino

1971 Ford Torino - Pictures - CarGurus (http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/1971-Ford-Torino-Pictures-c11291)

And this surely doesnt look like one either

Ford torino gt pictures. Photo 8. (http://www.motorstown.com/imgs/38954-ford-torino-gt-8.html)

Nor this one

Photo: Ford 1971 Torino_Set 01_11.jpg | Torino album | Muscles-cars | Fotki.com, photo and video sharing made easy. (http://public.fotki.com/muscles-cars/muscle-car/ford/torino/ford1971torinoset0111.html)

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com.au/2010/12/1969-david-pearson-17-holman-moody-ford.html

[gossamer]

I was a Holden fan (more enjoy the drivers these days) but this has to be up their as one of the sexiest cars
ALLAN MOFFAT'S 1969 TRANS AM MUSTANG | BOWDEN'S OWN car (http://www.bowdensown.com.au/allan-moffats-1969-trans-am-mustang)

[pop058]

Just for the purple fans (red and blue together :D)

PS. no, it is not photoshoped

[discovery39]

Just for the purple fans (red and blue together :D)

PS. no, it is not photoshoped


Ah, I remember that.
That was a Tribute lap to Brockie around Mt Panorama if I'm not mistaken.

[CraigE]

Ah, I remember that.
That was a Tribute lap to Brockie around Mt Panorama if I'm not mistaken.

True photo. Are you aware DJ originally raced Holden's and was actually a Holden man through and through, even drove a race fro HDT and placed well and hoped for a factory Holden drive, but never got one. Imagine Brock and DJ as a team? It was only when he got some backing by Brian Byrt that he changed allegiances and became a Ford driver.

[discovery39]

Didn't know that. Would have made a good team though.
I do remember the uproar when Lowndes went to Ford, and that he was actually a Ford bloke in the beginning. (as a child)
It's funny how we 'glue' the person to the brand they drive.

[disco man]

True photo. Are you aware DJ originally raced Holden's and was actually a Holden man through and through, even drove a race fro HDT and placed well and hoped for a factory Holden drive, but never got one. Imagine Brock and DJ as a team? It was only when he got some backing by Brian Byrt that he changed allegiances and became a Ford driver.

Very true craig. since i started this thread i watched 2 dvd's the first one was dick johnson 25 years at bathurst and the other the history of HDT and i got to say both were bloody brilliant. The johnson dvd was awesome in how it traced his history from the early days racing many holdens fj, eh, hr, and how he tried so hard to break into the holden team and by chance ended up racing for ford only because they offered to give him a car. But the way he took the fight to brock who had huge support behind him was a massive effort. After watching the HDT dvd i am now convinced whincup has a very long way to go some of the footage of the early bathurst wins is incredible that man was a legend. When harry firth first started HDT he was given a budget of 500,060 huge money in 1969.

[lewy]

Good to see the good natured rivalry still there between ford and holden. Cant imagine volvo and merc discussions like this in the future.Now what was the original question:D

[disco man]

Good to see the good natured rivalry still there between ford and holden. Cant imagine volvo and merc discussions like this in the future.Now what was the original question:D

Bloody hell i forgot now

[Tank]

Well you have just proved my statement re: your knowledge, Quote: "Holdens not Australian designed, they all were, from the FX through",
Recent Doco on Foxtel showing the GM history in Australia and how they bought out a coach builder, Holden (BTW 30 years after Ford built their factory here), the original holden was designed in America, by Americans and slightly modified by a pommy who was sent out here to whip us Socialist/communists Aussies into line. Maybe you should check your facts before you put your foot in your mouth.
The XA,XB, XC shape Ford Falcons were designed in the mid 60's by Ford Australia's design office, the Yanks actually copied some of the Ford Aust. designs.
Now for a lesson on chev and ford engines, Ford released the OHV Y Block (272, 292, 312) in 1954, chev introduced it's small block a year or two later, Both engines had similar heads, Siamese inlet ports each end of the head, Siamese exhaust ports in the middle of the head and one port each end, with the dissy at the rear of the block.
Ford dropped this engine in passenger cars in 57/58, chev carried on with it's small block, Ford introduced the FE Ford Big Block in 58, a "Y" block, this engine was used up till the mid 70's, available in 332,352,390, 406, 410, 428 and 427 cu.in. sizes, the 427 Side oiler (cross bolted mains) FE went on to dominate Ferrari at Le mans, winning 4 years in a row, also used by Carroll Shelby in Cobras, this engine was a dominant force in Nascar as well and in SOHC form powered the first dragster to break the 6 second barrier.
The 289 (Windsor) was developed in the early 60's, it had a block with the crank pan rail level with the centreline of the crank, it started as a 221, 260, then 289, 302, and a 351. The head design had 4 equally spaced inlet ports, with equal length runners and 4 equally spaced exhaust ports, the bore was (289) 4", stroke was 2.87" and it was common for these engines to rev into the 10,000rpm in race trim. This engine was the basis for the quad cam engines that took over Indy racing, Offenhauser were 168 cu. in. engines and blown, they (owners of Offys) complained that Ford should not be allowed to blow their engines with their (Ford) larger capacity V8's, So blown engines were not to be more than 168 cu.in., So Ford reduced their engines to 168 and put 2 turbos on and produced 900bhp and still beat all comers. This engine went on to become the most winningest Formula 1 engine of all time.
Now the latest chev engines have (LS1 etc.)"Y" blocks, Cross bolted mains, Hi-Port heads (like Fords 427 Hi-Riser heads), equally spaced inlet and exhaust ports, like Ford have had since the 60's. The 5 litre chev (not Holden) that winchup is driving has canted valves and equal length port runners, just like the Ford 5 litre, derived from the Boss 302, which was a Windsor block with Cleveland heads. So chev has been the follower and Ford the innovater and leader, and no amount of your so called facts can dispute this, take the latest offerings from chev and Ford, chev has a LS1 type engine with OHV's, 2 Valves /cyl. copied from 60's Fords and a cross-bolted "Y" block also copied from a 60's Ford. On the other hand Ford have an all alloy block (Y block with 6 bolt mains) with DOHC heads/4 valves per cyl, with factory supercharging and have had this family of engines for over 20 years, Long Live Ford, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Good to see the good natured rivalry still there between ford and holden. Cant imagine volvo and merc discussions like this in the future.Now what was the original question:D
Ford owns Volvo, Regards Frank.

[LandyAndy]

Ford owns Volvo, Regards Frank.

I thought Ford quit them a few years back and the Chinese now own them;);););)
Andrew

[disco man]

Hey tank was that doco called wide open road?

[Ancient Mariner]

Well you have just proved my statement re: your knowledge, Quote: "Holdens not Australian designed, they all were, from the FX through",
Recent Doco on Foxtel showing the GM history in Australia and how they bought out a coach builder, Holden (BTW 30 years after Ford built their factory here), the original holden was designed in America, by Americans and slightly modified by a pommy who was sent out here to whip us Socialist/communists Aussies into line. Maybe you should check your facts before you put your foot in your mouth.
The XA,XB, XC shape Ford Falcons were designed in the mid 60's by Ford Australia's design office, the Yanks actually copied some of the Ford Aust. designs.
Now for a lesson on chev and ford engines, Ford released the OHV Y Block (272, 292, 312) in 1954, chev introduced it's small block a year or two later, Both engines had similar heads, Siamese inlet ports each end of the head, Siamese exhaust ports in the middle of the head and one port each end, with the dissy at the rear of the block.
Ford dropped this engine in passenger cars in 57/58, chev carried on with it's small block, Ford introduced the FE Ford Big Block in 58, a "Y" block, this engine was used up till the mid 70's, available in 332,352,390, 406, 410, 428 and 427 cu.in. sizes, the 427 Side oiler (cross bolted mains) FE went on to dominate Ferrari at Le mans, winning 4 years in a row, also used by Carroll Shelby in Cobras, this engine was a dominant force in Nascar as well and in SOHC form powered the first dragster to break the 6 second barrier.
The 289 (Windsor) was developed in the early 60's, it had a block with the crank pan rail level with the centreline of the crank, it started as a 221, 260, then 289, 302, and a 351. The head design had 4 equally spaced inlet ports, with equal length runners and 4 equally spaced exhaust ports, the bore was (289) 4", stroke was 2.87" and it was common for these engines to rev into the 10,000rpm in race trim. This engine was the basis for the quad cam engines that took over Indy racing, Offenhauser were 168 cu. in. engines and blown, they (owners of Offys) complained that Ford should not be allowed to blow their engines with their (Ford) larger capacity V8's, So blown engines were not to be more than 168 cu.in., So Ford reduced their engines to 168 and put 2 turbos on and produced 900bhp and still beat all comers. This engine went on to become the most winningest Formula 1 engine of all time.
Now the latest chev engines have (LS1 etc.)"Y" blocks, Cross bolted mains, Hi-Port heads (like Fords 427 Hi-Riser heads), equally spaced inlet and exhaust ports, like Ford have had since the 60's. The 5 litre chev (not Holden) that winchup is driving has canted valves and equal length port runners, just like the Ford 5 litre, derived from the Boss 302, which was a Windsor block with Cleveland heads. So chev has been the follower and Ford the innovater and leader, and no amount of your so called facts can dispute this, take the latest offerings from chev and Ford, chev has a LS1 type engine with OHV's, 2 Valves /cyl. copied from 60's Fords and a cross-bolted "Y" block also copied from a 60's Ford. On the other hand Ford have an all alloy block (Y block with 6 bolt mains) with DOHC heads/4 valves per cyl, with factory supercharging and have had this family of engines for over 20 years, Long Live Ford, Regards Frank.
The first of the small blocks 221 ci and you left out the big block 428 .The Fords had the distributor at the front and the chevs at the rear which made the Fords better in 4WD use for water crossings


AM

[Tank]

The first of the small blocks 221 ci and you left out the big block 428 .The Fords had the distributor at the front and the chevs at the rear which made the Fords better in 4WD use for water crossings


AM
No the 221 and the 428 are there, the first Ford OHV V8 released in 1954 (272, 292, 312) had a rear mounted dissy, you could always tell when the rear gearbox mount had **** itself because the back of the engine would droop and bring the wire from the coil to dissy into contact with the accelerator arm. Which was on the firewall behind the dissy, it would cause a serious miss, esp. when going uphill, that's in a Cusso, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

I thought Ford quit them a few years back and the Chinese now own them;);););)
Andrew
Andy, you're probably right, hope things continue to improve, best of wishes, regards Frank.

[Tank]

Hey tank was that doco called wide open road?
I think it was, it was one of the Turbo channels, it will be on again, it's been repeated a thousand bloody times, Regards Frank.

[1950landy]

Bloody hell i forgot now
Volvo is now owned by Zhejiang Geely Holding Grupe of China

[uninformed]

what car did Perkins/Brock race?

Did Larry race a Ferrari there back in the day?

ok, I have a few auto books and remembered reading a pic with a "Larry Perkins" driving a Ferrari GTO at Le mans or such. It appears this one was from the USA, not Aus...

[uninformed]

Just dont tell Frank that Carroll Shelby wanted a Chev V8 in the Cobra first :D

[Debacle]

This gave me a chuckle. Remember what todays date is.

Legends behind the wheel for Bathurst (http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/championship/legends-behind-the-wheel-for-bathurst)

[gossamer]

This gave me a chuckle. Remember what todays date is.

Legends behind the wheel for Bathurst (http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/championship/legends-behind-the-wheel-for-bathurst)
i hate the 1st of april :)

[rangietragic]

Brock also raced a BMW in the early 70s at Spa, Larry raced some real ****ty F1 cars including the story of tearing a whole car down on a tarp after practice and rebuilding it to qualifying the best the car ever had.

But, the only driver to have ever won the world drivers championship and constructors championship in a car of his own design with a substantially smaller budget was our own Sir Jack Brabham in the Repco-Brabham.......think the is some family history somewhere between the Repco engine and V8 LandRover engines......2nd cousins maybe?
No relation actually,urban myth.Google repco brabham v8

[CraigE]

Keep dreaming Frank. As I said designed does not mean original or new. The FX and FJ were a scaled down chev, but a lot of the design work was done in Australia to suit Australian conditions and buit on a chassis designed by Holden. Everyone knows GM bought Holden Coach builders that is nothing new. My Grandfather used to actually work for Holden Coach builders during this transition in Adelaide. I never siad they did not have help or borrowed from others. All of them did. If it makes you happy to believe XAas on were a complete new design then keep on thinking that, that is fine with me.

Well you have just proved my statement re: your knowledge, Quote: "Holdens not Australian designed, they all were, from the FX through",
Recent Doco on Foxtel showing the GM history in Australia and how they bought out a coach builder, Holden (BTW 30 years after Ford built their factory here), the original holden was designed in America, by Americans and slightly modified by a pommy who was sent out here to whip us Socialist/communists Aussies into line. Maybe you should check your facts before you put your foot in your mouth.
The XA,XB, XC shape Ford Falcons were designed in the mid 60's by Ford Australia's design office, the Yanks actually copied some of the Ford Aust. designs.
Now for a lesson on chev and ford engines, Ford released the OHV Y Block (272, 292, 312) in 1954, chev introduced it's small block a year or two later, Both engines had similar heads, Siamese inlet ports each end of the head, Siamese exhaust ports in the middle of the head and one port each end, with the dissy at the rear of the block.
Ford dropped this engine in passenger cars in 57/58, chev carried on with it's small block, Ford introduced the FE Ford Big Block in 58, a "Y" block, this engine was used up till the mid 70's, available in 332,352,390, 406, 410, 428 and 427 cu.in. sizes, the 427 Side oiler (cross bolted mains) FE went on to dominate Ferrari at Le mans, winning 4 years in a row, also used by Carroll Shelby in Cobras, this engine was a dominant force in Nascar as well and in SOHC form powered the first dragster to break the 6 second barrier.
The 289 (Windsor) was developed in the early 60's, it had a block with the crank pan rail level with the centreline of the crank, it started as a 221, 260, then 289, 302, and a 351. The head design had 4 equally spaced inlet ports, with equal length runners and 4 equally spaced exhaust ports, the bore was (289) 4", stroke was 2.87" and it was common for these engines to rev into the 10,000rpm in race trim. This engine was the basis for the quad cam engines that took over Indy racing, Offenhauser were 168 cu. in. engines and blown, they (owners of Offys) complained that Ford should not be allowed to blow their engines with their (Ford) larger capacity V8's, So blown engines were not to be more than 168 cu.in., So Ford reduced their engines to 168 and put 2 turbos on and produced 900bhp and still beat all comers. This engine went on to become the most winningest Formula 1 engine of all time.
Now the latest chev engines have (LS1 etc.)"Y" blocks, Cross bolted mains, Hi-Port heads (like Fords 427 Hi-Riser heads), equally spaced inlet and exhaust ports, like Ford have had since the 60's. The 5 litre chev (not Holden) that winchup is driving has canted valves and equal length port runners, just like the Ford 5 litre, derived from the Boss 302, which was a Windsor block with Cleveland heads. So chev has been the follower and Ford the innovater and leader, and no amount of your so called facts can dispute this, take the latest offerings from chev and Ford, chev has a LS1 type engine with OHV's, 2 Valves /cyl. copied from 60's Fords and a cross-bolted "Y" block also copied from a 60's Ford. On the other hand Ford have an all alloy block (Y block with 6 bolt mains) with DOHC heads/4 valves per cyl, with factory supercharging and have had this family of engines for over 20 years, Long Live Ford, Regards Frank.

[disco man]

I was a Holden fan (more enjoy the drivers these days) but this has to be up their as one of the sexiest cars
ALLAN MOFFAT'S 1969 TRANS AM MUSTANG | BOWDEN'S OWN car (http://www.bowdensown.com.au/allan-moffats-1969-trans-am-mustang)

Another wicked looking car was the 1984 VK day-glo marlboro commodore as far as i know one of them ended up in a collection in the UK no idea what happened to the other one. any one know where these cars ended up?

[Tank]

Keep dreaming Frank. As I said designed does not mean original or new. The FX and FJ were a scaled down chev, but a lot of the design work was done in Australia to suit Australian conditions and buit on a chassis designed by Holden. Everyone knows GM bought Holden Coach builders that is nothing new. My Grandfather used to actually work for Holden Coach builders during this transition in Adelaide. I never siad they did not have help or borrowed from others. All of them did. If it makes you happy to believe XAas on were a complete new design then keep on thinking that, that is fine with me.
Well see you've got it totally wrong again, watch that Doco and you will see that the holden was designed wholly by americans, and the biggest boo-boo, holden didn't have a chassis, they were a Uni-Body construction, as far as XA's on it is Fine with the Australian designers as well, I will get their names for you and you can tell them they didn't design these cars.
You really seem to have a problem with absorbing facts that don't tally with your ideas/fantasies, I have proved Ford has been copied by Chev, engines and even body styling, compare a 54 Customline with the archaic 54 Chev, and in 1956, supposedly Chevs best ever car was outsold by Ford, so why don't you quit while you're behind, LOL, Regards Frank.

[pop058]

Another wicked looking car was the 1984 VK day-glo marlboro commodore as far as i know one of them ended up in a collection in the UK no idea what happened to the other one. any one know where these cars ended up?

either Bowdens or the museum at the the track in Bathurst.

[boa]

Peter was a natural driver he could drive anything. But he had no input skills. Give him a car and he could drive it. Moffat was not a natural driver. For him it was hard work. But he could set up a car like no one else. He could tell the difference of 1 psi in tyre pressure. Moffat was faster than Brock. In the car they ran in Europe. I worked as a mechanic for Moffat in 1977 and 1978.

[disco man]

Peter was a natural driver he could drive anything. But he had no input skills. Give him a car and he could drive it. Moffat was not a natural driver. For him it was hard work. But he could set up a car like no one else. He could tell the difference of 1 psi in tyre pressure. Moffat was faster than Brock. In the car they ran in Europe. I worked as a mechanic for Moffat in 1977 and 1978.

Awesome to hear from somebody who was actually part of the scene. Was the torana a far better car than falcon in those two years you worked for Moffat or was there other factors at play? On paper the falcon should have smashed the torana.

[CraigE]

Well see you've got it totally wrong again, watch that Doco and you will see that the holden was designed wholly by americans, and the biggest boo-boo, holden didn't have a chassis, they were a Uni-Body construction, as far as XA's on it is Fine with the Australian designers as well, I will get their names for you and you can tell them they didn't design these cars.
You really seem to have a problem with absorbing facts that don't tally with your ideas/fantasies, I have proved Ford has been copied by Chev, engines and even body styling, compare a 54 Customline with the archaic 54 Chev, and in 1956, supposedly Chevs best ever car was outsold by Ford, so why don't you quit while you're behind, LOL, Regards Frank.

Mate you are getting so far off topic.:p I have no argument the FX FJ was designed by Americans, but was mostly designed here in Australia with survey and research being done here and a lot of input from the Holden Coach builders (have just finished reading an article), Same as the Falcons, most of the Ford designers were American. We are now talking Semantics. Ford, Holden and Chrysler all had American designers and work done in the US.
If the FX FJ did not have a chassis why do they have chassis tags. Yes it was a monocoque design and you may consider it to be a subframe rather than a chassis, I have no issue with that. You can actually buy replacement chassis kits for them, and I will certainly agree they are not much of a chassis but there still none the less.
It is well know they took their ideas from the Torino and Mustang for the Falcon Coupe and well documented, not the other way round as you assert. Did they design it, of course they did as the designers, does not mean it was original and did not borrow from the family. All manufacturers do.
Its a bit like the Commodore, yes it was an Opel, but was completely redesigned for Australia. These guys still designed it but it was hardly original.
We were talking Holden vs Ford in Australia and Holden have far outsold Ford and that is indisputable. If the 50s Chev was also such a bad car, why do they command such a high price now compared toe the equivalent Ford.
Keep on smiling, as I am certainly not taking any offence to your posts, more just a bit of banter.;)

[gossamer]

Another wicked looking car was the 1984 VK day-glo marlboro commodore as far as i know one of them ended up in a collection in the UK no idea what happened to the other one. any one know where these cars ended up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0Qf3yuofVE
some great cars here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAAGSQHLMgU

[Pickles2]

Peter was a natural driver he could drive anything. But he had no input skills. Give him a car and he could drive it. Moffat was not a natural driver. For him it was hard work. But he could set up a car like no one else. He could tell the difference of 1 psi in tyre pressure. Moffat was faster than Brock. In the car they ran in Europe. I worked as a mechanic for Moffat in 1977 and 1978.
I agree with most of your post, but I do NOT agree that Allan was faster than Peter, because he wasn't (And I'm not saying Brock was faster either,..they were BOTH brilliant).....and although I knew Brock personally, there is no greater Allan Moffat admirer than me...He is still the best Ford driver this Country has ever seen, or is likely to.
What I will say about Moff, & if you worked for him you would be aware of this, it appears that he was generally under-funded as compared to Brock's HDT.
Allan also thought that Brock got a better go from Cams than He did. I remember once he made the comment to Brock when they were doing a joint interview,.."We couldn't even get in the front door of Cams if we had an issue, but they would invite you (Brock/HDT) in for a cup ot tea"!!
I've been following Sedan car racing in Aus for over 50yrs, & believe me, it will never get any better than the Brock/Moffat "duels", no matter who won.
Pickles.

[scarry]

Getting away from the Brock/Moffat stuff,have a look at this.
Shame the pic is not better:(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nflj21etu5E

Just good clean racing.

Not only could Perkins drive,but he could also engineer and build a good race car,there are not many that could do that



Those You Tube clips of Brock in the wet '87 Bathurst are fantastic as well.

[boa]

I agree with most of your post, but I do NOT agree that Allan was faster than Peter, because he wasn't (And I'm not saying Brock was faster either,..they were BOTH brilliant).....and although I knew Brock personally, there is no greater Allan Moffat admirer than me...He is still the best Ford driver this Country has ever seen, or is likely to.
What I will say about Moff, & if you worked for him you would be aware of this, it appears that he was generally under-funded as compared to Brock's HDT.
Allan also thought that Brock got a better go from Cams than He did. I remember once he made the comment to Brock when they were doing a joint interview,.."We couldn't even get in the front door of Cams if we had an issue, but they would invite you (Brock/HDT) in for a cup ot tea"!!
I've been following Sedan car racing in Aus for over 50yrs, & believe me, it will never get any better than the Brock/Moffat "duels", no matter who won.
Pickles.

Yes very underfunded in 1977 there were 3 mechanics full time. We worked 12 or more hours a day. There was an interesting interview on TV today on the launch of Peter Brocks wife a book about his life. Agree both were fast. Maybe we need to meet as possibly what we need to say is not for a public forum.

[Kev the Fridgy]

Getting away from the Brock/Moffat stuff,have a look at this.
Shame the pic is not better:(


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nflj21etu5E

Just good clean racing.

Not only could Perkins drive,but he could also engineer and build a good race car,there are not many that could do that



Those You Tube clips of Brock in the wet '87 Bathurst are fantastic as well.

I remember seeing that live and watching it several times since on You Tube, an epic drive by both Laaary and JB.... I remember an interview once I think it was with Alan Grice but may be wrong, however the comment was made that "John Bowe was/is the most liked racer to go door to door with as he gives room when required, the only problem is he always seems to make his car 3 feet wider than everyone elses car", still as a non GMH fan, Larry Perkins is a legend

[scarry]

I remember seeing that live and watching it several times since on You Tube, an epic drive by both Laaary and JB.... I remember an interview once I think it was with Alan Grice but may be wrong, however the comment was made that "John Bowe was/is the most liked racer to go door to door with as he gives room when required, the only problem is he always seems to make his car 3 feet wider than everyone elses car", still as a non GMH fan, Larry Perkins is a legend

And i remember Dick Johnson saying "JB is harder to pass than a gall stone".

Those were the days:)

[Pickles2]

Yes very underfunded in 1977 there were 3 mechanics full time. We worked 12 or more hours a day. There was an interesting interview on TV today on the launch of Peter Brocks wife a book about his life. Agree both were fast. Maybe we need to meet as possibly what we need to say is not for a public forum.
Yeah, I saw Bevo on TV today, talking about her new book. She is looking SUPER GOOD. She is one very strong lady, & was in no small way responsible for Peter's success, & keeping him in line, well as much as was possible anyway......but she partied with the best of 'em when she felt the time was right. Like you say, there's stuff that can't be said, but Brock certainly led the "good life"!!
Regards, Pickles.

[boa]

Yeah, I saw Bevo on TV today, talking about her new book. She is looking SUPER GOOD. She is one very strong lady, & was in no small way responsible for Peter's success, & keeping him in line, well as much as was possible anyway......but she partied with the best of 'em when she felt the time was right. Like you say, there's stuff that can't be said, but Brock certainly led the "good life"!!
Regards, Pickles.
So did we after bathurst in 1977 we spent a week in the Sydney Hilton and drank $300 of shampain in a night.

[Pickles2]

So did we after bathurst in 1977 we spent a week in the Sydney Hilton and drank $300 of shampain in a night.
Yes, you'd never know from looking at him, but Moff had his "lighter" moments too. A friend of mine was close to Louis Maillia (spelling correct?), who was with Allan on his visits to the U.S. in relation to the Mustang, Lou had some "entertaining" stories.
Pickles.

[boa]

Awesome to hear from somebody who was actually part of the scene. Was the torana a far better car than falcon in those two years you worked for Moffat or was there other factors at play? On paper the falcon should have smashed the torana.

In 1977 we did, mostly because of Carol Smith the falcons were better engineered we did a lot of work. If you are into engineering read his book prepare to win. It is old school as such but a great source. I was a good time ,we had at the time a better vehicle, because of the people working on it. That is not to say others did not have dedicated staff as well. But at this time we had the better vehicle and a winning team.

[disco man]

Hey boa how do think young his young fella is coming along? he seems to be showing some promise any shades of his old man in there?

[1950landy]

Getting back to Whincup, how many more times is going to knock Lowndes off the track when Lowndes is ahead on points & get away with it.

[discovery39]

It's a Red Bull thing...........

[1950landy]

It's a Red Bull thing...........
Yes just got to look at F1 & Red Bull:cool:

[Jeff]

In 1977 we did, mostly because of Carol Smith the falcons were better engineered we did a lot of work. If you are into engineering read his book prepare to win. It is old school as such but a great source. I was a good time ,we had at the time a better vehicle, because of the people working on it. That is not to say others did not have dedicated staff as well. But at this time we had the better vehicle and a winning team.

I have one of Carroll Smith's books. I use it for reference all the time.

Jeff

:rocket:

[disco man]

Yeah, I saw Bevo on TV today, talking about her new book. She is looking SUPER GOOD. She is one very strong lady, & was in no small way responsible for Peter's success, & keeping him in line, well as much as was possible anyway......but she partied with the best of 'em when she felt the time was right. Like you say, there's stuff that can't be said, but Brock certainly led the "good life"!!
Regards, Pickles.

Very strong women indeed. In the sunday mail the had a little section out of her book and it seems keeping women away from Brocky was a full time job. She goes into detail about the tricks some women would use to get a piece of Brocky even using some of those stunts right in front of her.She also tells the story of Brocky coming home to find his bags packed and waiting for him at the front door. I guess after being kicked out of the family home he finally understands what Bev and kids really mean to him.Looks like it's going to be a very good read.

[ramblingboy42]

.....and what happened to the both of them this weekend?

Is it a case of the cars weren't the best on track at Winton so couldn't be driven to victory?

[Pickles2]

Very strong women indeed. In the sunday mail the had a little section out of her book and it seems keeping women away from Brocky was a full time job. She goes into detail about the tricks some women would use to get a piece of Brocky even using some of those stunts right in front of her.She also tells the story of Brocky coming home to find his bags packed and waiting for him at the front door. I guess after being kicked out of the family home he finally understands what Bev and kids really mean to him.Looks like it's going to be a very good read.
He wasn't "kicked out of the family home"......He left of his own accord, for his own reasons.
Pickles.

[disco man]

He wasn't "kicked out of the family home"......He left of his own accord, for his own reasons.
Pickles.

As taken out of her book. Peter came home one day while the kids were at school,to find his bags packed and waiting for him by the door. He was staggered when i calmly explained that i loved him dearly,in fact so much that i wanted him to be happy. He obviously wasn't happy with me or he wouldn't have been paying attention to his PA. I had no interest in his protestations,quietly i loaded his bags in the car AND SENT HIM OFF.
Not trying to argue with you mate or cause offence but that does'nt sound like someone left of their own accord to me. That sounds like he was asked to leave. Like i said mate not trying to upset anyone but that is what was stated by Bev brock not something i have made up.

[LandyAndy]

After this weekend one would wonder if the 888 boys are worthy,where were they??????
Very strange to see 888 so un competetive.
Andrew

[disco man]

After this weekend one would wonder if the 888 boys are worthy,where were they??????
Very strange to see 888 so un competetive.
Andrew

Very strange to see but it shows even 888 has bad days but the fact that over the weekend we had 3 different winners is great for the sport. Also what happened to Erebus? win on saturday come near the bottom on the sunday WTF:o

[LandyAndy]

Good to see Ford put on a show today.
Andrew

[disco man]

Good to see Ford put on a show today.
Andrew

Frosty's first win since bathurst and fords first win since the Gold coast 400 last year. Erebus winning yesterday broke Holdens 13 race winning streak:)