Defender tube bar design....opinions

[rijidij]

G'day All,
I've just designed a tube type bull bar for Defender and I'm happy with how it's turned out, but I'd like some feedback on the top outrigger design.
I value the feedback I get from the forum, so please let me know what you think. If you vote in the above poll, you can choose either one, or if you like both options you can check both.

This is the one I've just made. Instead of a tube I've used a laser cut gusset as a brace. The reason I did this is mainly so it looks different to other tube bars. A lot of them look similar in design.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1264.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-winch-bar_zps3c01aed4.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1265.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-winch-bar-1_zps9fff5c5d.jpg.html)


Or, do you prefer the tube outrigger brace like on other bars you've seen.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1266.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/tubular-winch-bar_zpsbe979ddc.jpg.html)


This is one that I had to modify the tube on because it fouled on the indicator surround on a Limited edition Defender (SVX type front lights)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1267.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Top-Tube_zpsbf601b6a.jpg.html)


So which one do you prefer ? It would be preferable to stick to the one design to make production simpler, but having said that, if a customer preferred one or the other, it might just mean having to wait for one to be made.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers, Murray

[MR LR]

I think the braces look silly and you might aswell get rid of them, strenght can be added in other areas.

Why do you not continue the main tubes to completely overlap the chassis boxes/mounts?

Cheers
Will

[clive22]

Hi Murray

I like the idea of the gussets,but can't help thinking that a twin gusset for strength appropriate on this key connection, with the plates mounted one on the front and one on the back of the main bar - sandwiching the two tubes.

That way when the bar is impacted the front plates are in tension and rear in compression - this decoupling in widely spaced plates adds a lot the strength over a single.

These gussets would help in increasing the strength of the loop to main bar welds especially under fast acting dynamic loads impose which tend to lead to brittle fractures.

The tops of the gussets should be capped (another section of steel) for the most part along their length to a impacts on the upper tube can be transmitted at least to a limited extent in torsion to the main tube and take the load off the cantilever tube.

For myself I would leave out the material saving holes strength is critical with multiple force systems though this section.Except keep you've got three the 'mouse hole" in the corner - this raises weld stresses.

That's just my opinion and because I think bull bars should be for strength - keeping 'roos out of the radiator before anything else.

Will this fit a Tomas PTO winch if so I'd be interested.

This will add to the cost but why not make it a good as can be there's plenty of nearly the sames out there

Clive

[rijidij]

...........Why do you not continue the main tubes to completely overlap the chassis boxes/mounts?

Cheers
Will

The main tubes stop where they are because if they went further in they would be in the same space as a winch.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1262.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Tube-Bar-2_zpse7ec8cf6.jpg.html)

To run them in further they would have to come forward which would decrease the approach angle at the wheels.
I've got the main tubes tucked in close to the body, but not too close.
Also, the ends have a radius to follow the line of the body.

Cheers, Murray

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb102/rijidij/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/PTO%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-bull-bar-12_zps054a6442.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/PTO%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-bull-bar-12_zps054a6442.jpg.html)

[rijidij]

...............Will this fit a Tomas PTO winch if so I'd be interested................

Clive

Yes, I've already done a PTO version on request of another forum member. As soon as I finalise a few details it will be off to get hot dip galvanised.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1260.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/PTO%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-bull-bar-13_zpsc914a0d4.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1261.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/PTO%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-bull-bar-5_zps304bb0dc.jpg.html)

[MR LR]

Nice design there Murray, the only criticism I have is that the winch tray does not pick up the plates on both sides of the chassis rails (unless you're planning on adding material?), you could do this without any ill effect on approach angle, however as I've mentioned before I like to over-build things.

Otherwise it looks awesome, the curved corners give it a very 'finished' look.

Regarding the bracing, I think a straight tube going up to the A-bar, (so get rid of the bend) mirroring the one beneath would look the best and give the best trade off between strength and looks.

Cheers
Will

[n plus one]

Voted. Overall, I like it!

[voltron]

Got my vote, wish you had finished this before I bought my rover craft.

[dullbird]

is this made so you can weld in different plate fitments depending on which winch you have?

[dullbird]

I personally dont like the holes in the supports but what I do like is your trying to create something different from every other tube looking bar out there

I have an idea!

I will send it to you

[Pickles2]

Beautiful work from you as usual Murray.
I think that the holes in the gussets make it look a bit "busy", so I prefer the second version.
Pickles.

[rijidij]

is this made so you can weld in different plate fitments depending on which winch you have?

I've done a version with the standard mounting hole pattern for most electric winches, also a version to fit the Thomas PTO. As you can see, the middle section of blue RHS is in between two flat plates at either end. If someone wanted to customise a bar to suit something different or unusual, then I'd probably be willing to supply the bar with the centre section left out.

Cheers, Murray

The holes in the RHS are the standard 10" x 4.5" (254mm x 114mm) electric winch layout.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1245.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Tube-Bar-3_zps64726eb1.jpg.html)

[DieselDan]

Voting done, awesome work Murray!

....on second thoughts, damn you Murray, I'm gonna end up spending a lot of money on your gear at the back end and now front end of me new Deefer (when it finally shows up!)

[Drover]

Hi Murray,

Do you know if the new bar will fit SVX/X-Tech Special Edition grill head light assemblies.

Your pics look like it is very nicely tucked around the the head light surrounds, maybe too tucked for SVX/X-Tech.

Very nice work though, as per normal.

Cheers
Grant

[rijidij]

Hi Murray,

Do you know if the new bar will fit SVX/X-Tech Special Edition grill head light assemblies.

Your pics look like it is very nicely tucked around the the head light surrounds, maybe too tucked for SVX/X-Tech.

Very nice work though, as per normal.

Cheers
Grant

The main tube sits just below the headlight panel, so no problem. It was the little bracing tube that had to be modified on the other brand bar because in standard form it occupied the same space as the plastic indicator surround on the SVX type front.
Whether I fit a gusset or a tube it will clear.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1230.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/PTO%20Prototype%20Bar/Defender-bull-bar-11_zps52e7415a.jpg.html)

[weeds]

Voted........oh and sent a pm or two

DB's idea is a nice touch......

[rijidij]

I just had a look at the poll results. Surprisingly it's a 50-50 even split. I expected it to be heavily bias towards one design or the other.

Cheers, Murray

[Wicks89]

Hi Murray

I like the idea of the gussets,but can't help thinking that a twin gusset for strength appropriate on this key connection, with the plates mounted one on the front and one on the back of the main bar - sandwiching the two tubes.

That way when the bar is impacted the front plates are in tension and rear in compression - this decoupling in widely spaced plates adds a lot the strength over a single.

These gussets would help in increasing the strength of the loop to main bar welds especially under fast acting dynamic loads impose which tend to lead to brittle fractures.

The tops of the gussets should be capped (another section of steel) for the most part along their length to a impacts on the upper tube can be transmitted at least to a limited extent in torsion to the main tube and take the load off the cantilever tube.

For myself I would leave out the material saving holes strength is critical with multiple force systems though this section.Except keep you've got three the 'mouse hole" in the corner - this raises weld stresses.

That's just my opinion and because I think bull bars should be for strength - keeping 'roos out of the radiator before anything else.

Will this fit a Tomas PTO winch if so I'd be interested.

This will add to the cost but why not make it a good as can be there's plenty of nearly the sames out there

Clive

Second that!

I love the gussets and I reckon by going with some double gussets you'd be way ahead of the bell curve. Also in my humble opinion I think you could use a single piece to act as the floor for the winch, the top of the chassis mounts and connect it up to the main tube if that makes sense.

I only say that as in some shots it seems like the main tube hasn't got much purchase on the cradle.

Other than that looks awesome and I'd prefer to buy one from you that's distinct and stronger than just an improved version of the rovacraft one. Keep is posted on price an availability!

[rijidij]

Second that!

I love the gussets and I reckon by going with some double gussets you'd be way ahead of the bell curve.

I'm thinking of combining a couple of suggested ideas. I agree, the double gusset would be stronger, and Dullbird suggested fitting DRLs into the gusset, so by boxing in the top of a double gusset it would provide a cavity to neatly hide the wiring away.
This is just a quick Photoshop pic, but it would look something like this.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1192.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/DRLs/DRL-Gusset-Mod_zps07c47848.jpg.html)

Also, for the bar I'm building for my own car, I've housed some DRLs into the main tubes. I'm hesitant to offer this as an option because it's a lot of work to box the housings, but if someone really wanted them, it can be done. It would add at least $200 to the cost including the lights, mainly because of the time involved.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1193.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/DRLs/DRL-Bar_zps4dc661ab.jpg.html)



Also in my humble opinion I think you could use a single piece to act as the floor for the winch, the top of the chassis mounts and connect it up to the main tube if that makes sense.

That makes perfect sense, and I did consider that sort of design to simplify things a little. The reason for the current design is so the middle section is easier to adapt to different winches, or even to a lighter non-winch bar.



I only say that as in some shots it seems like the main tube hasn't got much purchase on the cradle.

Keep in mind, the bar in the pics is only tacked together. I will be adding additional bracing, for example, between the main tubes and the chassis mounts.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1194.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Tube-Bar-3A_zpse503399a.jpg.html)

Thanks for your input.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

Voting done, awesome work Murray!

....on second thoughts, damn you Murray, I'm gonna end up spending a lot of money on your gear at the back end and now front end of me new Deefer (when it finally shows up!)

:D Might have to put a special package deal together for you Dan............


Dual rear carrier
Front winch bar
Telescopic light pole
S/S wingtop vents
Oh, and I'll throw in a cup holder or two for free :D


And any new products I come up with in the future, I'll just send them to you with an invoice :D:D............you know once you get a Defender, adding or changing things is never ending.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

Thanks heaps for everyone's input and votes so far. It's really hard to design something that will please everyone's taste.

I greatly value feedback from the forum, good or bad, as it all goes towards making a better product.

Cheers, Murray

[LowRanger]

I am sorry to say,but those lights in the gussets look like they should be on the front of a falcon ute,that is going to a B&S and doing circle work:censored:

[chuck]

Murray

I like the straight DRL idea.

Also could you move the winch mount down & further back thus allowing the horizontal tube to run right thru?

That way the winch should be in between the chassis rails.

Keep the stainless RoR but mount plasma fairlead in there some where.

[rar110]

I would like the look of the laser cut brace better if it only had 2 or 3 holes.

Can electric winches be mounted upside down?

I prefer the full bars so I can attach side bars.

[digger]

Straight off I prefer a full bar but appreciate the fact people want these 'pipe' bars.

I would think if the top bar bent and continued as a one piece and then was parralelled by another bar for the 'outriggers' it would look good.

The multiple holes look like a kids shape toy on the bracing... try something else (iconic?) on them in a laser cut...

maybe something like the landy oval and slash but with ror on it somehow?
just a thought.. and if strip lights wanted maybe inbetween the two 'pipes"?


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/1178.jpg



Yep it is really bad but was just a thought and my way of trying to explain it.

cheers

[Racing Sardine]

Excuse my ignorance but where would the number plate go?

[weeds]

Excuse my ignorance but where would the number plate go?

I will let you know in three weeks ish

[DieselDan]

:D Might have to put a special package deal together for you Dan............


Dual rear carrier
Front winch bar
Telescopic light pole
S/S wingtop vents
Oh, and I'll throw in a cup holder or two for free :D


And any new products I come up with in the future, I'll just send them to you with an invoice :D:D............you know once you get a Defender, adding or changing things is never ending.

Cheers, Murray

Ha ha, yeah as soon as it gets here I'll come and pay you a visit!
Be good to see the bars in person.

I also like the suggestion of bringing the main bars to meet in the middle if possible. I'll be getting the bar way before I get the winch and it'll looked weird with a big unfilled gap in the middle!!!:rolleyes:

Don't work too far away from you so will give you a bell to organise a visit.

[rijidij]

Excuse my ignorance but where would the number plate go?

The bar will come with a bracket which bolts on the back of the fairlead/hawse plate, so the number plate will be positioned on top of the plate in front of the winch. I'll take a pic when I get the chance.
I hate the requirement to fit a front number plate, and there's really no other option but this position.

Cheers, Murray

[dullbird]

unless you fit a flip up plate over your fairlead

[clubagreenie]

If you made a D2 option I'd ditch the xRox for a laser braced one.

[rijidij]

Excuse my ignorance but where would the number plate go?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/964.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Number-plate_zps09fc5aa8.jpg.html)

[dullbird]

Would that not interfer with the fitmant of lights?

I still reckon a flip up plate concealing the fair lead would be much nicer

[rijidij]

I've been playing with some different outrigger braces to see what they look like.

This one is straight. This is the easiest one to do, and although it matches the bottom outrigger, it's probably a bit plain for my liking.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/961.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Straight_zpsb404ed99.jpg.html)


This one has a bend at one end. A bit more work involved, but it's the little details that make a big difference sometimes
I like this one more than the straight one.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/962.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Bend_zps201b5d70.jpg.html)


This is the gusseted one, same as before. Just putting the picture here for easy comparison.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/963.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Defender%20Tube%20Bull%20Bar/Elec%20Prototype%20Bar/Gusset_zps8d909a02.jpg.html)


Although it would be easiest for me to have just the one design, I can probably offer any of these as an option, mainly because most of my products are made to order.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

Would that not interfer with the fitmant of lights?

I still reckon a flip up plate concealing the fair lead would be much nicer

You're probably right about the lights Lou. The number plate in the pic is a full size one, most have slimline plates these days which would give a bit more space, but a flip up one might be the way to go.
Just trying to keep it simple, but that's what prototyping is about........chopping and changing things.

Cheers, Murray

[dullbird]

I haven't noticed flip up plates that readily available here Murray.

I was looking a little while back and only managed to find them on eBay from the states

It could also just been the way I was searching, I think ARB do them however if its something that is not readily available you could alway look at making your own that way if it could be something you can offer as an option to your bar and other 3rd party bars as a separate stand alone unit.

Just a thought of course

[weeds]

oi...no more enhancements

re: braces, I like the one with the little bend in it.........can I change my order?

[rijidij]

oi...no more enhancements

re: braces, I like the one with the little bend in it.........can I change my order?

Your bar hit the road with the courier yesterday mate :D

To be honest, I think the gussets look better in the flesh than in pictures on here so I'm sure you'll be happy when you see it. I reckon I'll have the gussets on my own bar.

Looking forward to seeing the galvanised version when you get it fitted up.

Cheers, Murray

[weeds]

Your bar hit the road with the courier yesterday mate :D

To be honest, I think the gussets look better in the flesh than in pictures on here so I'm sure you'll be happy when you see it. I reckon I'll have the gussets on my own bar.

Looking forward to seeing the galvanised version when you get it fitted up.

Cheers, Murray

lol.......

happy enough with mine.....a two week trip to moreton is in my way

[clubagreenie]

You could use some large tool clips if you have rollers and just clip the plate to it. Here in NSW you get charged for any plate that isn't off the shelf, in other words anything that isn't yellow/black and if you want non std or not a duplicate of your existing letter/number combo there's an annual fee as well. I'm seeing less and less personalised/stylised plates.

[rijidij]

You would have to have two different types, one for roller fairleads and one to suit hawses.

These two are for the roller type, I haven't found any for the hawse yet.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/954.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/955.jpg

[isuzurover]

I don't see a "neither" option there Murray!

I have never really looked at these tube bumpers. What is the purpose of the brace? Stiffening the top hoop or stiffening the "bumper" ends?

Either way your plate brace seems to be stiffening the bar in the wrong plane for frontal forces to either tube.

[dullbird]

Im sure if you created your own you could just attach it to the lip of the bracket that you have already made on the bar for the fairlead (roller or hawse) because I see you have bent a forward facing lip...

im sure that lip could be used to accommodate it if you adapted the designs you have just pictured above.

[rijidij]

I don't see a "neither" option there Murray!

I have never really looked at these tube bumpers. What is the purpose of the brace? Stiffening the top hoop or stiffening the "bumper" ends?

Either way your plate brace seems to be stiffening the bar in the wrong plane for frontal forces to either tube.

It's probably not easy to see in the pictures, but the bottom brace actually angles back to where it joins to the chassis mount, it's not parallel with the main tube, so this is to aid in a frontal hit.
I've always considered the tube type bars to be more of an off roading bar rather than a 'Skippy deflector', so the top brace I consider more for an upward impact, such as dropping onto a rock.

Cheers, Murray

[rijidij]

Im sure if you created your own you could just attach it to the lip of the bracket that you have already made on the bar for the fairlead (roller or hawse) because I see you have bent a forward facing lip...

im sure that lip could be used to accommodate it if you adapted the designs you have just pictured above.

Yeah, I've considered that existing top lip. It wouldn't be too difficult to make the sheet metal flap, probably more important is to make sure it's secure and doesn't rattle when in the down position.....maybe a catch, or spring load it.

Cheers, Murray

[dullbird]

I reckon spring loaded

I guess the question with that would be water crossings...im sure there is a number of people out there that have lost their plates on crossings

I cant imagine it would impact a spring loaded fornt flipping plate too much, at worst perhaps the water could potentially flip it up but something to consider..

I guess you could capture it rather than spring load it but would people get the poops from having to undo the catch if they were on a a trail that caused them to winch a lot??

[weeds]

Your bar hit the road with the courier yesterday mate :D

To be honest, I think the gussets look better in the flesh than in pictures on here so I'm sure you'll be happy when you see it. I reckon I'll have the gussets on my own bar.

Looking forward to seeing the galvanised version when you get it fitted up.

Cheers, Murray

sadly it wont be galvanised.......the bar was returned to my contractor asking for additional holes to be drilled. we were confident with the number of holes we drilled..........kinda wish we didn't drill them now

anyways its getting primed using a zinc process than a textured black as the top coat.

will hopefully have it by the end of the week to fit up over the weekend

[rijidij]

G'day All,
Please see this thread in the Verandah for an update on these bars.

Rijidij Tube Bull Bar, Defender, County (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=2150360#post2150360)

Cheers, Murray

[David Hawes]

Cool, I'll buy one when my Terrafirma bar rusts away. Which probably won't be long:(