PUMA brakes fail rego check ........

[Drover]

Well I went for first rego inspection today, after my 5 year new car no check amnisty ended.

And the it failed the brake test.....

I haven't noticed any change and they seem fine, but the mechanic said they are terrible.

So the question for the learnard is what could be wrong ....

Some facts -

The pedal is firm with no fade.
There are no fluid leaks any where.
It does not use fluid.
The vacume pump seems to "sucking" with reasonable force.
The vacume line to the from the pump to the booster is not blocked or cracked.
When the vacume line is removed from the booster you can hear air "inhale" into the booster. So no leaks there.

Extra info - once, the metal brake lines to the one of rear calipers snapped from corrugations. I install a new one and bleed the brakes. No problem or maybe there was....?

Any help would be welcome. About to go away for Easter and cannot get in to the brake specialist until next month.

I was thinking/hoping it maybe a my failure to bleed the ABS unit.

Cheers

[THE BOOGER]

Brakes should have been inspected at each service for a new car when was the last service, there may be a problem but not with your car:(

[Drover]

Brakes should have been inspected at each service for a new car when was the last service, there may be a problem but not with your car:(

It has been serviced 8 times with only 65,000k's. Last service was at 60,000 during October '13. All work is carried out by a well know Landy specialist and prior to the end of warranty by the dealer.

The rego check was carried at local mechanic not the Landy specialist.

[chopper]

Get a second opinion as in get a rego check done elsewhere and don't tell them that you have already had one done. Only cost you another $36.40.

[ezyrama]

It has been serviced 8 times with only 65,000k's. Last service was at 60,000 during October '13. All work is carried out by a well know Landy specialist and prior to the end of warranty by the dealer.

The rego check was carried at local mechanic not the Landy specialist.

We have a joker on the gold coast that tells people their car is do bad that he cant allow them to drive out of the shop. He tried it on my wife, i shot down there, got the keys and told him to send me a quote on the email or fax. He wouldnt do it as he knows that its a legal document i can use against him if i call "shenanigans" on him. Get another opinion.

[dullbird]

I would get another opinion

however you have wrote up there all the things you have checked in relation to your brakes functioning correctly

however you haven't said whether you have actually checked you have meat on your brake bads??

If you have physically checked your pads/discs are not worn I would be going and getting another opinion...

was it his opinion that failed your brakes or his machine?..because my discovery passed the braking test every year and I thought the brakes were terrible! so much so I put defender callipers and discs in and the thing stops like a real car now

[Disco Muppet]

Agree, get a second opinion.
My rear rotors were below minimum thickness when I got it, needs a complete overhaul and while it still stops you can tell it needs some work.
Brake place still tested them as being over 90% functional.

[Blknight.aus]

or he had a brain fart and put the test machine in the vehicle backwards.....

Seen that a couple of times now.

Usually tho that just results in them looking at the print out after the test drive looking quizically at the result face palming turning the machine around and doing another quick lap.

it is interesting seeing a +ve G reading on a brake test result

[Drover]

I would get another opinion

however you have wrote up there all the things you have checked in relation to your brakes functioning correctly

however you haven't said whether you have actually checked you have meat on your brake bads??

If you have physically checked your pads/discs are not worn I would be going and getting another opinion...

was it his opinion that failed your brakes or his machine?..because my discovery passed the braking test every year and I thought the brakes were terrible! so much so I put defender callipers and discs in and the thing stops like a real car now

Pads have at very least 50% remaining, disks are smooth no groves or lips. disk wear would be minimal, at least not visible to the eye. Only 65,000k's on it.

It failed the machine test and his opinion was they are terrible. Additional he was not trying to bring the work in, as I was advised to find a brake specialist.

To me they seem fine, but maybe I am just used to them and haven't notice the decline in performance.

[FeatherWeightDriver]

Wow.

Every mechanic that has done my brake test managed to do them standing in the back of the workshop. ;)

Seriously though, brakes need to be pretty bad to fail, and you should generally know they are dodgy well before the test. Time for another opinion, maybe even with the mob who service your car.

[landiematt]

Maybe put your factory alloys back on and see if that helps the test results.
(if you still have them). The smaller tyres will improve the results a bit.
How many defenders has the mechanic driven.
Matt

[Drover]

How many defenders has the mechanic driven.
Matt

Probably none.

[vnx205]

How bad do they need to be to fail?

My LWB Series III with no vacuum boost used to pass every year and many of us know that Series II brakes are nothing to get excited about.

[MLD]

Get a second opinion as in get a rego check done elsewhere and don't tell them that you have already had one done. Only cost you another $36.40.

Not as simple as driving away and going down the road to another mechanic. The mechanic is required to log the rego check and any defects found into the RTA portal and you can't get it passed until that defect is cleared. What i'm not sure about is if the second mechanic can clear the defect or only the first mechanic. It was to stop devious minds shopping around for a mechanic to pass rego if it failed elsewhere. If the logic was to stop devious minds i suspect that the defect needs to be cleared by the first mechanic. When i had problems in the past with rego check (usually the wheel spacers that i didn't remove for the check) the mechanic and I had a chat about how i hypothetically went home to remove the spacers and came back to be approved.

Interesting you failed the brake test, mum's partner had a 1923 Hudson that had shocking brakes and that passed rego (not historic rego) year in year out. The mechanic did say he wouldn't pass it next year. He might had done a bench test on the last rego check. The old girl was sold on the fear of the investment required for the needed makeover.

MLD

[benji]

or he had a brain fart and put the test machine in the vehicle backwards.....

Seen that a couple of times now.

Usually tho that just results in them looking at the print out after the test drive looking quizically at the result face palming turning the machine around and doing another quick lap.

it is interesting seeing a +ve G reading on a brake test result

If you had passed with the machine backwards... well, that makes a quick defender :)

[fraser130]

Both of my Defenders (Tdi and Td5) had to have their brake boosters replaced as they develop fine cracks in the housing near the bolts that the master cylinder bolts to - the brakes gradually lose power as air leaks in until you can no longer lock up the wheels.

Could it be the same thing?

Fraser

[JDNSW]

From what I remember hearing, the required performance depends on the age of the vehicle and the category (i.e. passenger, light goods etc.). My bloke tells me that my 2A easily passes, and the bar is quite easy for it. The measured parameters are deceleration and pedal pressure.

John

[BilboBoggles]

I didn't see from the thread if you've tested the booster. Switch the engine off, and pump the brake pedal - you shoudl feel it get progressively harder until it's almost rock solid. This uses up the vacuum reserve. Then with your foot on the brake pedal start the engine. As the vacuum pump builds up vacuum your pedal should sink quite a bit and become much more spongy. It's normal for a ABS defender (assuming this is a 110) to have quite a spongy feeling pedal.

If that all works - then can you get the ABS to kick in by braking as hard as you can from about 60kmh on tarmac - if you can then there are no issues with your brakes. You should feel the pedal pulsate heavily and it should pull up square. The ABS won't kick in if the brakes cannot lock up - so if you cannot get the ABS to go off then you have brake issues that need to be fixed.


I had not realised how god awful my TD5 (Same as a puma) brakes had become until I got my new PUMA. Scared the living **** out of me when I towed a 1 ton trailer that had no overrun brakes! The cause was awful pads and worn out rotors at the limit of their wear. A good brake service with new Original Land Rover pads, new rotors and the old TD5 defender brakes better than the new PUMA....

[Drover]

I didn't see from the thread if you've tested the booster. Switch the engine off, and pump the brake pedal - you shoudl feel it get progressively harder until it's almost rock solid. This uses up the vacuum reserve. Then with your foot on the brake pedal start the engine. As the vacuum pump builds up vacuum your pedal should sink quite a bit and become much more spongy. It's normal for a ABS defender (assuming this is a 110) to have quite a spongy feeling pedal.

If that all works - then can you get the ABS to kick in by braking as hard as you can from about 60kmh on tarmac - if you can then there are no issues with your brakes. You should feel the pedal pulsate heavily and it should pull up square. The ABS won't kick in if the brakes cannot lock up - so if you cannot get the ABS to go off then you have brake issues that need to be fixed.


I had not realised how god awful my TD5 (Same as a puma) brakes had become until I got my new PUMA. Scared the living **** out of me when I towed a 1 ton trailer that had no overrun brakes! The cause was awful pads and worn out rotors at the limit of their wear. A good brake service with new Original Land Rover pads, new rotors and the old TD5 defender brakes better than the new PUMA....

Thanks BB,

I tested the booster as discribed by you and it seemed to do as you said.

Took it out and there is no way the brakes will lock up at 50to 60k's, but it stopped quickly. So not able to test the ABS. The ABS warning light on the dash is not lit up.

How much vacume should the pump put out. Mine will suck your finger tip into it but it's not super strong.

I bleed all four corner this morning, but there was no air in the lines.

[rick130]

Easy for a Deefer to fail as it's a test of pedal pressure vs G's of retardation.

I've seen them fail with a new Booster, new vacuum pump, new (bedded, 1000km old) TRW pads and braided hoses (and admittedly 255/85's)

[chopper]

Not as simple as driving away and going down the road to another mechanic. The mechanic is required to log the rego check and any defects found into the RTA portal and you can't get it passed until that defect is cleared. What i'm not sure about is if the second mechanic can clear the defect or only the first mechanic. It was to stop devious minds shopping around for a mechanic to pass rego if it failed elsewhere. If the logic was to stop devious minds i suspect that the defect needs to be cleared by the first mechanic. When i had problems in the past with rego check (usually the wheel spacers that i didn't remove for the check) the mechanic and I had a chat about how i hypothetically went home to remove the spacers and came back to be approved.

Interesting you failed the brake test, mum's partner had a 1923 Hudson that had shocking brakes and that passed rego (not historic rego) year in year out. The mechanic did say he wouldn't pass it next year. He might had done a bench test on the last rego check. The old girl was sold on the fear of the investment required for the needed makeover.

MLD

It is that simple. But, You are partially correct, It also polices the mechanic Because if the first mechanic fails it legitimately and the customer goes somewhere else and the second mechanic is a little casual and passes it , then the first one has failed it into he system and this can generate an inspection from the Gestapo who may check the vehicle but if the necessary repairs have been carried out then there is no problem however if someone hasn't done their job properly then stuff might hit the fan.
There is no law to say that you have to go back to the original inspection station for the second inspection. If you are not happy with the mechanic (because you may be smarter than he or because you may think he is ripping you off and trying to generate work ) you can always go somewhere else, your choice . Obviously the mechanic in this situation is not doing this because he suggested going to a brake specialist.
It is very unusual for a vehicle to fail a brake test, I have had two fail in my workshop in 20 years one being a 1940 something Willys Jeep ( if that gives an idea of how bad they have to be ).A pass on a 4wd is 39% average deceleration.
The OP said he hadn't noticed any issues with his 5 year old car
and that is why I suggested a second opinion.
I can say that some brakes are a bit lazy when cold after the car has been sitting in the parking lot all day and you just drive up the road with your foot on the brake and warm them up a bit and then do the test.
Also pad wear has nothing to do with performance (they just fade quicker when the pads are low). A brake test is performed at 30 kmh even pads that are metal on metal will pull up a pass. The Brake tester is the biggest waste of money in the workshop, up to 2 grand for a box with a printer in it that does not tell any worthy mechanic anything that he didn't already know. It doesn't even make you test "that "car as we have all heard of the bloke doing the test in the workshop or in some other car when then hotrod in question is stuck on blocks !.
Why wouldn't you get a second opinion , the first mechanic doesn't want to fix it. The cheapest way to do this is get another inspection and who knows it might even pass.
Also it is no skin off the vehicle owners nose if the car has been passed and then you get a spot inspection as it is the inspection station that is being audited not you. If there are defects still to be found then whoever passed the vehicle has to rectify the problems at their expense and most likely also cop a fine.
At the end of the day no one takes free advice so cough up another $36.40
and I'll call it quits.

[BilboBoggles]

If it won't lock up and trigger the abs, then I'd say there is something wrong. After the brake rebuild my td5 went from not being able to lock up, to easily triggerring the abs on the road. Was an amazing difference.

There is also a textbook procedure to bleed and flush the abs pump.

Do you get a better pedal if you brake, then release and brake again?

[PAT303]

I'd say something is wrong if the ABS doesn't come on,mine does it every time when hard braking from 60. Pat

[chopper]

Are you suggesting Lock up as skid a tyre ?

If the ABS locks up it is not ABS is it ? That would indicate a problem.
A good lock up on a brake test will trigger a fail.

[Drover]

BB the pedal on a second pump is better, but if feels good on the first depression.

Chopper I cannot make it skid....period. I may be wrong but the ABS won't kick if the wheel don't lock.

The only prob it has ever had was when the near side metal brake line to the rear calliper snapped on the way to Innaminka. Either caused by a stray rock or fatigue from the corrugations.

I replaced it, bleed the air out of the system the traditional way (not touching the ABS unit) seemed fine.

[chopper]

ABS sensors sense differences in wheel speeds long before lock up
and release and increase pressure to the appropriate wheels many times per second to maintain equal speeds ( decelerating ) to all wheels.

[fraser130]

BB the pedal on a second pump is better, but if feels good on the first depression.

Chopper I cannot make it skid....period. I may be wrong but the ABS won't kick if the wheel don't lock.

The only prob it has ever had was when the near side metal brake line to the rear calliper snapped on the way to Innaminka. Either caused by a stray rock or fatigue from the corrugations.

I replaced it, bleed the air out of the system the traditional way (not touching the ABS unit) seemed fine.

My money's on the booster.
Start and run the car, then switch it off, wait 5 mins, and see if the pedal has gone soft, or pull out the vacuum tube and see if there is any vacuum left.....if not then have a really close look at the steel of the booster right next to the alloy master cylinder where the bolts come through and see if you can see tiny cracks, have someone push the brake pedal hard while you look.

Cheers,

Fraser

[460cixy]

You need to find somewhere with a proper brake dyno or another inspector

[chopper]

second pump gives a better pedal , indicates air in the system somewhere.
clamp the hose/hoses to each wheel one wheel at a time and apply the brake each time .If it gets better then the problem is at that calliper.

[Drover]

My money's on the booster.
Start and run the car, then switch it off, wait 5 mins, and see if the pedal has gone soft, or pull out the vacuum tube and see if there is any vacuum left.....if not then have a really close look at the steel of the booster right next to the alloy master cylinder where the bolts come through and see if you can see tiny cracks, have someone push the brake pedal hard while you look.

Cheers,

Fraser

Booster looks like new, got the SWMBO to stand on the pedal, no cracks small or large to be seen.

Ran motor, disconnected vacuum line after 5 minutes, got a nice sound of air rushing in.

It's not making it easy.

460 - I think a Brake Specialist is inevitable, but the local guy is booked out till 2/5/14.

Chopper - my money is on air in the system, where .... Not sure, how to get it ......totally not sure.

[BilboBoggles]

Better pedal on second press is likely to point to play on the wheel bearings.

[Drover]

Better pedal on second press is likely to point to play on the wheel bearings.

Really .......

There is no indication of a wheel bearing issue.

But I will check it out, happy to check and try anything at this stage.

[460cixy]

second pump gives a better pedal , indicates air in the system somewhere.
clamp the hose/hoses to each wheel one wheel at a time and apply the brake each time .If it gets better then the problem is at that calliper.

Not exactly its a common mistake made with diesels hit the pedal a couple of times and it gets hard like there's air in the system but actually its just that the vacuum pump is slow. I don't know how many inches a puma pump pulls but you want about 25" at idle

[Brid]

If it has only been bled normally, then a pressure bleed may be worthwhile, as the rush of brake fluid will better dislodge residues as well as any air that is difficult to remove with manual bleeding.

[jx2mad]

My wife's Hyundai had new rotors and pads fitted by the dealer last service. I drove it home and nearly wiped myself out the first time I had to brake solidly. There was hardly any. Now I know that new pads have to be bedded in but these were ridiculous, just like there was no vacuum. However since they bedded in they are now great but it took around 500km to bed in.

[PAT303]

Pump the peddle so it's hard and then start the engine,the peddle should drop 1/2'',if it doesn't you have no vacuum,even with ABS the wheels will lock up,the ABS unlocks the wheels,if they don't lock the ABS won't work. Pat

[chopper]

,even with ABS the wheels will lock up,the ABS unlocks the wheels,if they don't lock the ABS won't work. Pat[/QUOTE]

WRONG.

[PAT303]

Chopper,how do you think ABS works?. Pat

[rick130]

I wonder what's wrong with the brake tester of a mates as I struggle to get the Deefer passed and the brakes are pretty much new?

In use they work fine and it pulls up nice and straight. All I can think of it's the 33's working against it.

Any play at all in the wheel bearings will give a longer than normal pedal, and any degree of pad wear can allow pad knock off, again giving a longer than normal pedal.

Any time driving dirt I always give a confidence tap coming into a corner as the pads will often knock back a little, particularly when pressing on.
It's just habit

[chopper]

Chopper,how do you think ABS works?. Pat

I briefly described it back a few posts,
do you really think it locks up and then unlocks ? You can do that yourself without ABS ( A - for "antilock" ) ABS doesn't just release pressure to a rapidly slowing wheel it also applies pressure to faster wheels . Its based on the average speed of all the wheels monitored MANY times per second and keeps them altogether speed wise. A wheel will only skid if it is aloud to slow down at a greater rate than the others. If a wheel starts to slow down on mud gravel ice or a slippery patch on the road the system releases the pressure to the wheel/wheels in question before the wheel skids, this way you are still able to steer the car around the corner otherwise you would be over the bank down in the gully wondering why you ordered ABS and only got BS.

[Graeme]

Are the pads/linings glazed?