Problem with front radius arm to axle Superpro bushes

[SG1]

Hello,

About 8 months ago I purchased and installed a complete kit of Superpro bushes for my D110 (1999, early TD5).

Everything has been fine except for the front radius arm to axle bushes.
I noticed strange nosies (clunks) on the front axle after taking the Defender for the first time to do some of road after installing my new bushes.

First thing I noticed was that the bolts which tighten the front radius arm to axle bushes were not tight as they should be. I tightened them and the clunk-during-articulation improved a bit, but it was still there.

Next thing I noticed is that there was some free space between the sides of the bush and the bracket which is welded to the axle on the two bushes on the front side of the axle (both on the passenger side and on the driver side). This seemed strange and I tried to fix it by inserting a couple of large flat washers to act as a supplement. The noise improved significantly but there is still a loud clunk/bang commming form the front bushes when doing some good articulation. The clunk has dissapeared under normal road and dirt road driving but it appears with articulation over uneven ground, otherwise it is fine. The ride on the road is excellent, very stable, no vibrations at all.

The bushes I bought were part of the SPKIT0043AK KIT and included the following SPF0195K front radius arm to axle bushes instead of the SPF0195SK bushes which apparently have an outer shell.

My Defender (early Td5, made in 1999) apparently has the wide radious arms.

Following the introduction my specific questions are:

a) what is the real difference between the SPF0195SK and the SPF0195K bushes? They are both supposed to fit into the same place and are made for the same models of Defenders so why does Superpro make two versions? This is, to my knowledge, not very clear in the Superpro web page. Anybody knows what the outer shell really is? There are no pics in the web page to tell the difference. May I have bought the worng bushes? Perhaps the SPF0195SK bushes are wider and would close the gap between the bracket and the radoius arm?

b) If what I suspect in "a" is not the case, any ideas as to what may be wrong? I cannot believe my bushes are destroyed after a few months of use with virtually very little to no off road use.

c) May the bushes have been improperly installed ? I cannot see how this could have been done (they were installed in a shop).

d) last guess: could there be some free play between the bolt and the inner tube of the bush causing this loud clunk when I articulate? I have read something in this forum about dirt getting betweeen the inner tube and the bolt and "eating" the bolt, creating some free play.

I will appreciate any help/ advice on how to go about solving this? By the way the Defender works just fine off road, it articulates very well but the loud bang/clunk comming from the front bushes is just annoying and I am afraid I may destroy something along the way....
I will try to post a pic of the washer between the bush and the bracket to illustrate.
Cheers,
Santiago

[Debacle]

Have you measured the width of the radius arms to check that it has the correct ones fitted ?

This explains why they have the one with the outer shell, but should be the same width I would assume.
http://www.tomcatwebshop.co.uk/front-radius-arm-to-axle-bush-kit-speed-eventsheavier-duty-spf0195sk-218-p.asp

[SG1]

Have you measured the width of the radius arms to check that it has the correct ones fitted ?

This explains why they have the one with the outer shell, but should be the same width I would assume.
Front Radius Arm to Axle Bush Kit Speed Events Heavier Duty SPF0195SK (http://www.tomcatwebshop.co.uk/front-radius-arm-to-axle-bush-kit-speed-eventsheavier-duty-spf0195sk-218-p.asp)[/quote]


Thanks John. That link explains clearly what the outersleeve is about. That is evidently not my problem. I have measured the width of my bushes (in-situ) and they are about 50mm, about the same width of some old rubber bushes I used to use before (the ones which I replaced for the Supepro bushes). So I cannot understand why they seem not to fill the gap between bracket and radius arm.......lets post some pics to illustrate.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/601.jpg

You can see the flat washer on the right hand side, between the bracket and the radius arm. it does not fil the gap however. Actually I think the washer is being trapped between the bracket and the inner tube. Anybody knows how this should work?

[Benz]

I've had a horrible experience with super pro bushes...

fitted my 130 defender up with them before I set off around Australia and now 12 months and 32,000ks later I've had to have them replaced at great expense.
I thought they would have been a good thing, after all people seem to rave about them on here.

I have traveled down some pretty bad roads but what I didn't expect was the brackets for the radius arms on the rear diff to wear... they kept coming loose and refused to stay tight no matter how tight or how often I did them up. Every time I checked the rear radius arms they were loose on the diff end. eventually they wore the mounting bolt holes and they would move around clunking as they went...

I'm back on rubber bushes now and have had the damage fixed up.

My case could be a unique one, or other factors could of caused my problems, but as far as I can see my defender had no issues for the first 165,000ks of it's life running rubber bushes. but 32,000 ks on polly saw me with all sorts of issues from clunks to steering wobbles.

maybe they just aren't cut out for endless corrugations or too hard perhaps?
I'm glad to see the horrible blue things gone!

once again I love driving me lovely 130 :) it's like a new car!

[roverrescue]

Santiago
One other thing to check, as Benz has indicated is the actual hole diameter at the axle housing bracket compared to the through bolt.

With time, these holes will wear and oval.

The symptom will be clunking on articulation.
You can over drill, turn up a flanged sleeve and weld it to the bracket as a fix. The benefit is that it essentially thickens the axle bracket plate resulting in less on going wear.

Sometimes just replacing the bolts is all that is needed if they have worn a small collar at the axle bracket location that movement will create your clunks.

S

[rick130]

I've had a horrible experience with super pro bushes...

fitted my 130 defender up with them before I set off around Australia and now 12 months and 32,000ks later I've had to have them replaced at great expense.
I thought they would have been a good thing, after all people seem to rave about them on here.

I have traveled down some pretty bad roads but what I didn't expect was the brackets for the radius arms on the rear diff to wear... they kept coming loose and refused to stay tight no matter how tight or how often I did them up. Every time I checked the rear radius arms they were loose on the diff end. eventually they wore the mounting bolt holes and they would move around clunking as they went...

I'm back on rubber bushes now and have had the damage fixed up.

My case could be a unique one, or other factors could of caused my problems, but as far as I can see my defender had no issues for the first 165,000ks of it's life running rubber bushes. but 32,000 ks on polly saw me with all sorts of issues from clunks to steering wobbles.

maybe they just aren't cut out for endless corrugations or too hard perhaps?
I'm glad to see the horrible blue things gone!

once again I love driving me lovely 130 :) it's like a new car!

Strange, I have Super Pro everywhere except the rear trailing arm to diff bushes, they are still OE !
I use my 130 on some ordinary roads and it gets a caning and the SP bushes have held up far better than the OE rubber ever did, the rear trailing arm to chassis bushes are over 220,000km old now and fine.

I'm not sure what's happened with Santiago's bushes either, in use they generally seem superior to OE but it looks like his have taken a 'set' and compressed ?

[uninformed]

SG1, you didnt forget to install the crush tube in the bush did you?

Even if the crush tube was a 1-2mm shorter than the width of the OEM bush, there is enough give in the axle bracketry to get it tight.

Definitely check your holes for size.

Also I found bad clunking in my front end and the only bolts I could find remotely lose were on the panhard mounting bracket and they were not even that lose. Doing them up made the difference though.

Benz, what year model is your 130? There was a short period of time when defenders where coming out with out the weld on washers on the rear axle trailing arm mounts. This would and did lead to wollowing out of the bolt hole and problems from there.

I would say there is something going on other than the superpro bushes not working. Either something on your truck or you got a one off bad set of rear bushes. To many people run them with no problems.

Another thing I found when I replaced all my bushes was how tight the car felt, but showed up other little problems that were masked by the old bushes having slop in them...

[Yorkshire_Jon]

The bolt in your photo looks to be too small. It should be an imperial but an M16 is close enough.
Maybe it's the angle of the photo but your looks more like an M12.

It also looks too short as there doesn't appear to be any threads protruding from the Nyloc but.

[rick130]

Santiago
One other thing to check, as Benz has indicated is the actual hole diameter at the axle housing bracket compared to the through bolt.

With time, these holes will wear and oval.

The symptom will be clunking on articulation.
You can over drill, turn up a flanged sleeve and weld it to the bracket as a fix. The benefit is that it essentially thickens the axle bracket plate resulting in less on going wear.

Sometimes just replacing the bolts is all that is needed if they have worn a small collar at the axle bracket location that movement will create your clunks.

S

Good point Steve.

I also had to replace the chassis to A frame bolts as they'd worn appreciably, and I wrapped the new bolts with shim stock on one side and one of the front radius arm to diff bolts as the bore size was a little oversize on a couple of the crush tubes.

[chopper]

The inside of the brackets are probably worn a fair bit and as was mentioned renew the bolts also. When I did mine I had to retighten (very tight) a few times but it finally took up.
Unless original is not available or stupidly priced ( not the case here )
I cant see the attraction to eurothane "bushes" . first up they are not bushes like original black rubber where the inner and outer sleeves are bonded (vulcanised) together and the rubber itself twists. They are more like a bearing and the inner sleeve grinds away at the eurothane, so they will not last as long as the original (noticeably true on shackles , especially where dirt is involved). Also being stiffer , (advertised as being some sort of advantage ) in the the front axle radius arms this inhibits full compression and drop out on opposite sides of the axle as the arms need to be able to roll in the mounting locations for this to happen and on the rear bush at the chassis it also wants to be supple enough to let the arms drop down (eurothane will hold them up to some degree).
They also give a harsher ride. They do look good on hot-rods as you can colour match with your paint scheme.
The only plus side is they are often easier to fit as some part numbers do away with the outer sleeve so no need to press in, and once fitted the suspension doesn't need to be set to ride height before tightening because the bush is free to rotate ( a big plus for people who don't now what they are doing ).This procedure is not relevant to the front axle in question.

[uninformed]

palm to face....

[rick130]

The inside of the brackets are probably worn a fair bit and as was mentioned renew the bolts also. When I did mine I had to retighten (very tight) a few times but it finally took up.
Unless original is not available or stupidly priced ( not the case here )
I cant see the attraction to eurothane "bushes" . first up they are not bushes like original black rubber where the inner and outer sleeves are bonded (vulcanised) together and the rubber itself twists. They are more like a bearing and the inner sleeve grinds away at the eurothane, so they will not last as long as the original (noticeably true on shackles , especially where dirt is involved). Also being stiffer , (advertised as being some sort of advantage ) in the the front axle radius arms this inhibits full compression and drop out on opposite sides of the axle as the arms need to be able to roll in the mounting locations for this to happen and on the rear bush at the chassis it also wants to be supple enough to let the arms drop down (eurothane will hold them up to some degree).
They also give a harsher ride. They do look good on hot-rods as you can colour match with your paint scheme.
The only plus side is they are often easier to fit as some part numbers do away with the outer sleeve so no need to press in, and once fitted the suspension doesn't need to be set to ride height before tightening because the bush is free to rotate ( a big plus for people who don't now what they are doing ).This procedure is not relevant to the front axle in question.


God I get sick of repeating this but Super Pro bushes are of the same durometer or softer than OE rubber, only their competition/extreme range are harder than stock.

They are also of a superior (IMO) design in most spots of a Rover, particularly the chassis to lower trailing arm bush and radius arm to chassis bush and none of their bushes are patterned after the OE style bush, unlike most urethane bushes which are often direct copies of the OE bush.

They tend to last significantly longer than OE rubber, most of us that use the Super Pro bushes have doubled or tripled the life of the bushes by using SP's versions, as well as generally increasing articulation and retaining stock ride characteristics.
FWIW the latest OE rubber bushes don't have the best reputation for life, and I'd be loath to recommend any other brand of urethane bush.

[uninformed]

God I get sick of repeating this but Super Pro bushes are of the same durometer or softer than OE rubber, only their competition/extreme range are harder than stock.

They are also of a superior (IMO) design in most spots of a Rover, particularly the chassis to lower trailing arm bush and radius arm to chassis bush and none of their bushes are patterned after the OE style bush, unlike most urethane bushes which are often direct copies of the OE bush.

They tend to last significantly longer than OE rubber, most of us that use the Super Pro bushes have doubled or tripled the life of the bushes by using SP's versions, as well as generally increasing articulation and retaining stock ride characteristics.
FWIW the latest OE rubber bushes don't have the best reputation for life, and I'd be loath to recommend any other brand of urethane bush.

see post #11 :D

[chopper]

palm to face....

Put a rubber bush on one of your foreheads and a eurothane on the other then slap them both like some sort of an immature Bart Simpson and see which one hurts the most.

[chopper]

God I get sick of repeating this but Super Pro bushes are of the same durometer or softer than OE rubber, only their competition/extreme range are harder than stock.

They are also of a superior (IMO) design in most spots of a Rover, particularly the chassis to lower trailing arm bush and radius arm to chassis bush and none of their bushes are patterned after the OE style bush, unlike most urethane bushes which are often direct copies of the OE bush.

They tend to last significantly longer than OE rubber, most of us that use the Super Pro bushes have doubled or tripled the life of the bushes by using SP's versions, as well as generally increasing articulation and retaining stock ride characteristics.
FWIW the latest OE rubber bushes don't have the best reputation for life, and I'd be loath to recommend any other brand of urethane bush.


Where do you get your info from regarding hardness ?
I get mine from many years of experience and I am yet to see any brands softer than rubber. Fitted a set of sway bar links ( superpro ) last week , hard as , needed to compress the bushes first before getting the nut back on and then you can barley move the link sideways in relation to the sway bay when tightened !

[uninformed]

Put a rubber bush on one of your foreheads and a eurothane on the other then slap them both like some sort of an immature Bart Simpson and see which one hurts the most.

If thats how you perfrom a test of these bushes with all your years of experience, then Im a little concerned with any other advice you might give :D and how many foreheads do you have? Not from Tassie are you?

you also said "They also give a harsher ride. They do look good on hot-rods as you can colour match with your paint scheme.
The only plus side is they are often easier to fit as some part numbers do away with the outer sleeve so no need to press in, and once fitted the suspension doesn't need to be set to ride height before tightening because the bush is free to rotate ( a big plus for people who don't now what they are doing ).This procedure is not relevant to the front axle in question."

right there you pretty much lose credability. You can not color match Super Pro bushes (which this thread is specificly about) They give pretty much the same ride as OEM, but not too many people are pulling out brand new OEM bushes to compare to brand new Super Pro, so the difference is lost in ware. And the radius arm bushes at axle end do not have a outer sleeve so that exactly applies to SG1's axle in question....

I would not be suprised if the guys at Super Pro designed the sway bar bush to be stiffer. You do realise they have the ability to change hardness etc at the design phase right?

If you are bunching all urethane type bushes in the same basket, I could only assume you think all brands of ruber bushes are equal also....

[chopper]

NO "Uninformed" I designed that test for your mentality.
I thought this thread was about a clunk after fitting non gen bushes that happened to be Superpro. He never said he had a clunk with originals
If you had any comprehension skills you would see that I don't discriminate against superpro in fact I mostly refer to eurothane in general which you can choose many colours if you dare stray from the almighty Superpro brand that some of you seem to have shares in or make money through sales .I also sell a mostly superpro as my main supplier pushes it BUT I always try for rubber first and will continue to do so. A forum is always going to be about opinions and I am still yet to see where it states that superpro is softer than rubber.

[uninformed]

NO "Uninformed" I designed that test for your mentality.
I thought this thread was about a clunk after fitting non gen bushes that happened to be Superpro. He never said he had a clunk with originals
If you had any comprehension skills you would see that I don't discriminate against superpro in fact I mostly refer to eurothane in general which you can choose many colours if you dare stray from the almighty Superpro brand that some of you seem to have shares in or make money through sales .I also sell a mostly superpro as my main supplier pushes it BUT I always try for rubber first and will continue to do so. A forum is always going to be about opinions and I am still yet to see where it states that superpro is softer than rubber.

so all shock absorbers are the same? All ARBs the same, all tyres the same etc.. ;) Its not rocket science, it has been proven already on LR products by many here and not.

Since you bring up comprehension skills and have many years experience, do you think that possibly the act of changing the bushes themselves could be the issue, not the brand or type? i.e. the fact that bolts have been undone, components removed etc? Yet you seemed to jump straight on the "urethante is bad" wagon.

[chopper]

UNINFORMED.
Obviously YOU didn't read my FIRST sentence.

" The inside of the brackets are probably worn a fair bit and as was mentioned renew the bolts also. When I did mine I had to retighten (very tight) a few times but it finally took up. "

I then went on to give MY own opinion on eurothane bushes in general, ( sorry about that ) based on my experience "professional " as I make my living out of it.
It is clear that this differs from your opinion, SO WHAT.
Did I mention my FIRST sentence , or cant you see past the eurothane spiel I gave , and that you took that personally as a dig at Superpro.
Did I also mention that I don't like any eurothane regardless of colour or nationality.
Still interested to see where it is stated that superpro is softer.
Talking about all the same, I have never been asked with eurothane type bushes would I like soft medium or hard and never asked if I would like fries with that either.

[rick130]

Where do you get your info from regarding hardness ?
I get mine from many years of experience and I am yet to see any brands softer than rubber. Fitted a set of sway bar links ( superpro ) last week , hard as , needed to compress the bushes first before getting the nut back on and then you can barley move the link sideways in relation to the sway bay when tightened !


From one of the engineers at Fulcrum/Super Pro.
I've spoken to them several times over the years.

AFAIK all of their suspension bushes for Landies are at least as soft as OE, I have no reason to doubt him as in my experience my arse bears that out.
The only ones harder are the radius arm bushes for comp vehicles.

They work with one of the local to them Landy specialists and test out redesigned bushes on everything from rock crawlers to tourers to make sure they work better than OE.

Have a look at their lower rear trailing arm to chassis bush, it's really nicely designed and allows quite a bit more flex than stock where the genuine items take a compression set way too easily.
The front radius arm bushes are a better design too IMO.

I agree with you that urethane isn't ideal in a rotating bush, IMO rubber is better there but I've used the SP A frame bushes and they've lasted really well. (220,000km so far)
The OE crush tubes flogged out the bolts and then flogged the crush tubes resulting in huge slop after about 100,000km. Classic fault of a bolt in double shear bearing on the threads instead of the shank on one side of the clevis.

[chopper]

From one of the engineers at Fulcrum/Super Pro.
I've spoken to them several times over the years.

AFAIK all the suspension bushes for Landies are at least as soft as OE, I have no reason to doubt him as in my experience my arse bears that out.
The only ones harder are the radius arm bushes for comp vehicles.

I thought that you had some personal connection to the brand.
Well I must take your word for it as you have taken someone else's word for it (surely not a biased one), but let us recount here, my first criticisms were at eurothane type bushes in general, but if you say that you have been told that Superpro in particular is softer, then so be it. I cant argue that.
The jury is out Superpro is best , backed by the voice of the company via someone else's voice. Go figure a company claiming there product is best.
What I should have said is ,be carful with eurothane as it has a tendency to be hard unless it is Superpro.
Case closed.

[Benz]

Hmm yes I would say there is a strong chance I could be at fault for my particular issue.

Perhaps the nylock nuts were buggered or something letting them come loose?

We will see how rubber bushes goes.

SG1. I think checking for slack in the bolts would be a good place to start.
It gets ugly if left too long :(

[uninformed]

UNINFORMED.
Obviously YOU didn't read my FIRST sentence.

" The inside of the brackets are probably worn a fair bit and as was mentioned renew the bolts also. When I did mine I had to retighten (very tight) a few times but it finally took up. "

I then went on to give MY own opinion on eurothane bushes in general, ( sorry about that ) based on my experience "professional " as I make my living out of it.
It is clear that this differs from your opinion, SO WHAT.
Did I mention my FIRST sentence , or cant you see past the eurothane spiel I gave , and that you took that personally as a dig at Superpro.
Did I also mention that I don't like any eurothane regardless of colour or nationality.
Still interested to see where it is stated that superpro is softer.
Talking about all the same, I have never been asked with eurothane type bushes would I like soft medium or hard and never asked if I would like fries with that either.

I can read just fine. I guess it was you directly telling me to make the comparason between rubber and urethane that gave me the idea of A: that's your main interest in this thread, here and B you have little experience with Super Pro bushes.

On that note, how many km have you done in your LR product with Super Pro bushes installed?

[chopper]

UNINFORMED,
Have you been drinking ?
Here we go with lack of comprehension skills again.
I did not say you cant read , I said you didn't read my first sentence way back at post #10.
I also did not directly tell you to make the comparison at all, I made the comparison for everybody reading this thread. That far back in the thread I was not even addressing you. You only became special to me when you started slapping your foreheads. I am kind like that , I will talk to anybody.
On that note , I did not say I have Superpro in my LR.
You may read but you also need to process the info.
Hence my question at the top.

[dullbird]

How about you all give it a rest?!

Just agree to disagree and move on.

[chopper]

Thank You Dullbird

[uninformed]

How about you all give it a rest?!

Just agree to disagree and move on.

id rather stand my ground :D

[SG1]

Hi Everybody,

I was surprised to open my computer this morning and find so many answers to my questions. I am glad to see things are getting more relaxed (thanks Dullbird) during these last few posts.

Thanks to everybody for their contributions. I will certainly take a look at the bolt wear / bracket-hole wear issue. Righ now in my mind this is the main "suspect" but I will go step by step and see what hard evidence says.

It is Friday Easter holiday on this side of the world and I have an "asado" (kind of a barbecue) in the hills nearby Mendoza at noon. I will put a friend on the steering wheel and instruct him to do some slow movement articulation while I look and listen from as close as possible (not too close hopefully).

Depending on what I see and hear I will grab my tools tomorrow morning and see what is going on down there with my almost new SP bushes.

Hopefully I will continue this story until the end and be able to tell what was wrong in order to be able to pay back for your help.

Cheers,
Stgo
PS: by the way, I laso noticed my bolt looked a bit short after taking the picture yesterday. I will address this as well.

[Reads90]

Just remember there was a change over between the 300tdi and TD5.

The 300tdi are wider arms and bigger bolts and the Td5 are thinner arms and smaller bolts.

Make sure which you have. After all not unusual for Land Rover to use up the remaining parts before changing to new stock. And as you said you have one of the very early TD5's

So you may have 300tdi arms on a td5 and this would mean TD5 bushes would be lose in them.

Just a thought to put out there

I personally have never had a problem with super pro bushes.

[SG1]

Well......bugger. Been in the field today but could not identify where the bloddy clunk noise is comming from. It could perhaps also be the Panhard rod bushes, according to where the noise is comming.
Right now I am 70% for the radius arm to axle bushes and 30% for the panhard rod bushes, regarding probabilities.

It is not as easy as I thought. When you try to produce the nosie it does not happen, when you walk away, it comes back.......and listening is just not enough to define precisey wher eit is comming from

There was another Defender in the field today with me an almost stock 300Tdi. His bolts where definitely longer. Not sure about the width of the radius arms, we did not have something to measure width.

I have a doubt regarind Read9's comment: SP's web page specifies that the same bushes correspond to 300Tdi Defenders and Td5's up to 2002 so I guess my Defender should have the same bushes as a Tdi.

This is from SP's web page: "Suspension Parts & Poly Bushings for
LAND ROVER Landrover 90,110,130 Defender & County - LA & YA Chassis County & Defender 300TDI LA On & TD5 YA On 1993 - 2002"

My Defender's VIN is: SALLDHM88YA187389

Anybody knows how I should go about finding the size of the bolts (the ones which tighten the radius arm to axle bushes) which my Defender should have brought from factory so that I can check if the ones I have are appropiate?


Another question: can I unbolt the panhard rod and use the vehicle for a short drive to check if the problem has to do with the panhard rod bushes? Or is this a crazy idea? I understand the Panhard prevents the axle from moving sideways, is this correct? Any risk in removing just to heck while climbing a big log within my garden?

[rick130]

Santiago, do NOT try and drive without the panhard attached.

Try tightening the chassis end clevis bolts, a lot of times the bolt wears as its bearing on the threads and it allows movement.

A couple of blokes have had the diff end clevis crack too, one of the blokes on LR4x4 (Tony C?) documented it.

I used to get a clunk every eighteen months or so from slight moment in that clevis

[uninformed]

Just remember there was a change over between the 300tdi and TD5.

The 300tdi are wider arms and bigger bolts and the Td5 are thinner arms and smaller bolts.

Make sure which you have. After all not unusual for Land Rover to use up the remaining parts before changing to new stock. And as you said you have one of the very early TD5's

So you may have 300tdi arms on a td5 and this would mean TD5 bushes would be lose in them.

Just a thought to put out there

I personally have never had a problem with super pro bushes.

bugger me, more changes!

whats the width of the Td5 arms?
whats the width of the Td5 bush
what dia bolt do they use?

[roverrescue]

Santiago,
The easiest way to check Panhard vs the "hocky sticks"

have a driver sit in vehicle with engine running and parked on a hard surface (concrete is good)
then as observer watch both the axle and chassis ends of the panhard bush as they gently wobble the steering wheel left to right. Doesnt need to turn much but at least 10 degreesof arc.

You should see no relative movement between the hard links and the Panhard rod itself.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not removed the Panhard and go for a drive

Steve

[SG1]

Santiago,
The easiest way to check Panhard vs the "hocky sticks"

have a driver sit in vehicle with engine running and parked on a hard surface (concrete is good)
then as observer watch both the axle and chassis ends of the panhard bush as they gently wobble the steering wheel left to right. Doesnt need to turn much but at least 10 degreesof arc.

You should see no relative movement between the hard links and the Panhard rod itself.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not removed the Panhard and go for a drive

Steve

Roverscue,

Thank you very much. Luckyly I had read Rick130's advice this morning (your Saturday night) before grabbing my tools. I also had the "feeling" that maybe it would be risky to remove the Panhard and drive. That's why I asked. Anyways, first thing I did this morning was to check all the bolts and nuts which a tighten all the bushes. Everything was firm. Given that the Panhard bushes looked OK (as far as I could see) I decided to start by the only thing that obviously looked worng: the big bolts that tigthen the radius arm to axle bushes.

Given that my friend's 300Tdi bolts were considerably longer and given that Superpro's web page specifies that late 300Tdi's and early Td5's (like mine) should have the same bushes I suspected that somebody had changed them along the way. So I decided to change the bolts and see if this was the problem.

I did a quick web search and found out that the bolts were supposed to be 16mm (diameter). Went to the local hardware store, bought the nicest 16mm bolts (the yellow shiny ones, probably zinc coated?) I could find (+/- 1.5 cms longer than the ones I had before) together with nuts and whasers. I bought 4 to change them all.

The guy at the shop measured one of the old bolts that I had undone and carried with me as a sample: initially he said it looked like 16mm but after a few seconds he changed his mind and said they were not milimetric, they were 5/8 (of an inch). This comment raised my hopes.

I went back, changed the two on the front side of the axle and gave it a try within my backyard, climbing a 0.4/0.5 meter high log. First try: no clunk, second try: no clunk; did it on reverse (climbing with the rear wheels) and had one clunk in the front axle again but not as loud as before.

Went back to my garage and changed the other two bolts. Since then I tried all the axle articulation I have been abe to do in my backyard (climbing the logs with one wheel at a time) and NO CLUNKS AT ALL. I could easily get many clunks climbing the logs in my backyard if I tried to before changing the bolts.

Bottimline: so far it looks like the bolts were to blame. Apparently they were not only the wrong size but also they were a bit worn and they were too short. I can only imagine that a "clever" mechanic changed the bolts during a previous bush change. I cannot imagine Land Rover using 5/8 bolts in one Defender and 16mm ones in other ones.

Anyways, tomorrow I will do the real and hopefully final test: a nice dry creek bed with some large boulders where I can do some nice articulation about 10 minutes away from my house (too bussy with family stuff today).

I will take pics of the new bolts and of the D110 tomorrow. Thanks everybody for the great help and for the interesnting discussion (apparently never ending) on rubber vs poliurethane.

If I can confirm the results tomorrow I will be able to happily say that the Superpro bushes had nothing to do with the clunks!! It was apparently "human error".

Cheers,
Stgo

[roverrescue]

Good outcome Santiago - thanks for finishing this thread off on a positive.

My only fear is that a 5/8 bolt is nominally smaller in diameter than an M16.
My understanding is that the crush tube on the SP (and OEM) bushes is for slide fit on M16.
From memory the bushing tube measures out at 16.05mm.

I wonder if your clunks were in fact as Rick was intimating not from the bolt itself but actual wear at the thread diameter vs flange hole on axle. The bolts in your original picture do look particularly short. New bolts with firm torque has clamped the bush nicely for now. Time will tell but me thinks you might be buying those longer M16 at some stage.

Ps not that I have any knowledge of the Argentinian bolt industry but "shiney yellow" coating wil most likely be a Cadmium plating of some flavour.

Steve

[Dougal]

Good result. But properly torqued bolts won't move or clunk no matter how much clearance they have. The joint should be tight.

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

[vnx205]

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

I'm sure someone on this forum a few years ago suggested that you don't need a torque wrench for those suspension bolts.

You just tighten them enough that you do yourself an injury in the process. :p

[rick130]

Good result. But properly torqued bolts won't move or clunk no matter how much clearance they have. The joint should be tight.

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

The problem is that a bolt in double shear, ie. in a clevis should not be using the threads as a bearing surface, it will move eventually and flatten the threads as the threads act as a cutter and oversize the bore.

This is why AN airframe bolts have an unthreaded shank length (it's known as grip length) that goes up in 1/64" increments so they can be used in double shear easily.
Any race car I ever spannered that used HT bolts were changed for AN/MS/NAS bolts in clevises, or if using SH cap screws I'd have chronically oversized ones on hand, cut off any excess thread and use a washer or two to fit to length.
I've seen far too many clevises flogged out from bolt threads bearing in them.

Just a shame you can't get aircraft hardware in metric.

[SG1]

Good outcome Santiago - thanks for finishing this thread off on a positive.

My only fear is that a 5/8 bolt is nominally smaller in diameter than an M16.
My understanding is that the crush tube on the SP (and OEM) bushes is for slide fit on M16.
From memory the bushing tube measures out at 16.05mm.

I wonder if your clunks were in fact as Rick was intimating not from the bolt itself but actual wear at the thread diameter vs flange hole on axle. The bolts in your original picture do look particularly short. New bolts with firm torque has clamped the bush nicely for now. Time will tell but me thinks you might be buying those longer M16 at some stage.

Ps not that I have any knowledge of the Argentinian bolt industry but "shiney yellow" coating wil most likely be a Cadmium plating of some flavour.

Steve

Steve,
Yes you are right, "tornillo cadmeado" is I think what they call theses bolts. Translation would be "cadmium treated bolt"....or somthing similar. Probably "Cd" and not "Zn" then.

Back to the bolt issue. From your comments I am afraid I probably did not explain myself clearly: I bought and installed 16mm bolts and replaced the 5/8 bolts I had before. From my basic math:
5/16 = 0.625
0.625 x 25.4 (mm in one inch) = 15.875mm, which is pretty close to 16mm but is actually smaller so my understanding is this may have been the main cause of the clunks .

I will be able to tell for sure tomorrow after my real world test.
Cheers,
Stgo

[SG1]

Good result. But properly torqued bolts won't move or clunk no matter how much clearance they have. The joint should be tight.

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

Unfortunately.....NO. I tighten them as hard as I can (or sort of) with my two 24mm wrenches (my wrenches are not really that long so probably not much lever). I am thincking of buying a torque wrench though, since I am always having to guess what is enough.

[roverrescue]

My bad Santiago,
I misread your explanation thinking the bolt man sold you 5/8" bolts.

You now have the correct M16 in and clunks have gone. Good result.

This afternoon me and a few mates went for a post cyclone explore up north. Track pretty touched up,with washouts etc etc. The old 130 was clunking away - seems like I need to get some new M16 and Nylocs. These ones just dont hold their tension!

S

[Dougal]

You want ~250Nm on Grade 8.8 M16 bolts to ensure they are tight. You won't get that with a spanner. It's 25kg of force on a lever 1 metre long.

[flagg]

incase anyone is interested.. these are the torque settings in Nm from my 110 workshop manual.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[LRDisco]

incase anyone is interested.. these are the torque settings in Nm from my 110 workshop manual.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=93925&stc=1&d=1431592370

That's really good of you, well done Flagg

Sent from my HTC_ONE using AULRO mobile app

[martnH]

I have recently replaced Most of the bushes with super pro bushes/nalothane

Just want to say the poly bushes should never be able to rotate in the brackets.

In fact nalothane advices not to apply grease to the outside of the poly bushes in order to have a better "grip" to the metal bracket.
Also Grease should only be applied to the inner surface

However super pro advise to grease up all surfaces [emoji14]

The torque required to do up most bolts is 176NM (A frame brackets, a frame ball joint, rear trailing arm etc..
This is very very tight to the point where the poly bushes are bulged.......

Also correct me if I am wrong. The factory rubber bushes are not supposed to rotate as well. They rely on the vulcanised rubber to deform to twist.

[martnH]

Just to add the torque for puma front radius arm to axle is 210NM so a bit more than the 176NM shown above

And once again LR did not follow their own manual as mine was only around 100NM. Or maybe they become loose over time.....

[JDNSW]

.......

Also correct me if I am wrong. The factory rubber bushes are not supposed to rotate as well. They rely on the vulcanised rubber to deform to twist.

Correct. All movement is taken by flexing of the rubber. This is why it is essential that final tightening be with the suspension in its 'normal' position and loaded, so that the maximum strain in the rubber is minimised. (and to ensure that the inner tube is against the bolt so that normal load is not taken only by end grip)

This applies to all applications of this type of vulcanised bush. In all types of bush the bolt should be covered with anti seize - nothing to do with the operation of the bush, but to help next time you are working on it!