Crushed Oil Filter - TDV6

[101RRS]

This thread follows on from this thread concerning TDV6 engine issues http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/195535-stuffed-engine.html . I will post my questions here rather than start a separate line of discussion in that thread.

For the Brains Trust:

A lot of posters both here and overseas have indicated the oil will not circulate correctly if the oil filter is not seated properly so some questions based on this hypothesis.

1. If the oil filter does restrict the oil flow enough to cause damage why does the oil pressure valve in most oil filter housings (and I assume there is one in the TDV6) open and allow the oil to circulate unfiltered? At least there would be oil circulated and in the could old days engines did not have oil filters and survived OK in the short term.

2. If the crushed oil filter does restrict oil flow and reduce pressure enough to cause engine problems why is this not detected and the oil light - check engine light come on?

Looking for information as it relates specifically to the TDV6.

Thanks

Garry

[ytt105]

Good question Gary!

[Piddler]

This thread follows on from this thread concerning TDV6 engine issues http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/195535-stuffed-engine.html . I will post my questions here rather than start a separate line of discussion in that thread.

For the Brains Trust:

A lot of posters both here and overseas have indicated the oil will not circulate correctly if the oil filter is not seated properly so some questions based on this hypothesis.

1. If the oil filter does restrict the oil flow enough to cause damage why does the oil pressure valve in most oil filter housings (and I assume there is one in the TDV6) open and allow the oil to circulate unfiltered? At least there would be oil circulated and in the could old days engines did not have oil filters and survived OK in the short term.

2. If the crushed oil filter does restrict oil flow and reduce pressure enough to cause engine problems why is this not detected and the oil light - check engine light come on?

Thanks

Garry

Pressure switch works on pressure not flow they are 2 different things.

Crushed filter would give you reduced flow not pressure.
Cheers

[Piddler]

This thread follows on from this thread concerning TDV6 engine issues http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/195535-stuffed-engine.html . I will post my questions here rather than start a separate line of discussion in that thread.

For the Brains Trust:

A lot of posters both here and overseas have indicated the oil will not circulate correctly if the oil filter is not seated properly so some questions based on this hypothesis.

1. If the oil filter does restrict the oil flow enough to cause damage why does the oil pressure valve in most oil filter housings (and I assume there is one in the TDV6) open and allow the oil to circulate unfiltered? At least there would be oil circulated and in the could old days engines did not have oil filters and survived OK in the short term.

2. If the crushed oil filter does restrict oil flow and reduce pressure enough to cause engine problems why is this not detected and the oil light - check engine light come on?

Thanks

Garry

Pressure switch works on pressure not flow they are 2 different things.

Crushed filter would give you reduced flow not pressure.
Cheers

[101RRS]

Pressure switch works on pressure not flow they are 2 different things.

Crushed filter would give you reduced flow not pressure.
Cheers

Is your comment based on actual knowledge of the TDV6 system or a general observation.

Basic fluid dynamics would indicate that if flow is reduced by a restriction and the pipe size on the downside remains the same size then pressure must decrease.

I am after information that relates specifically to the TDV6.

Cheers

Garry

[justinc]

Garry,

AFAIK the lubrication system (if the filter became fully blocked for example) will still bypass and allow oil circulation to the rest of the engine, unfiltered of course.

I have personally removed several filters from Tdv6 D3 looking like the one mentioned in the other thread, neither engine had/ has had any adverse effects.

JC

[Graeme]

I think terminology needs to be clarified here. An oil pressure relief valve normally located on the block returns oil directly to the sump so that there's enough pressure at low revs and not excessive pressure at higher revs.

Some filters are fitted with a non-return valve to prevent draining the lines when the engine is stopped whereas others may be fitted with a pressure bypass valve that allows oil to circulate unfiltered if the filter becomes blocked. Note that the valves inside filters have varying opening pressures so just because a filter physically fits, its not necessarily suitable.

[Graeme]

Extract from the 2.7 WSM...

The pumping element is an eccentric rotor, which is directly driven by flats on the crankshaft. An integral pressure relief valve regulates pump outlet pressure at 4.5 Bar (65.25 Psi).

The front crankshaft oil seal is housed in the oil pump casing and is fitted such that its front face is 1mm underflush with the machined front face of the oil pump.

:
The seal is not to be pushed all the way into the bore as this will block the seal drains.




Oil Filter

The oil filter is a replaceable cartridge installed on an adapter in the centre of the 'vee'. An internal bypass facility permits full flow bypass if the filter is blocked.


The oil pressure switch, located in the 'vee' at the front of the LH cylinder head, connects a ground input to the instrument cluster when oil pressure is present. The switch operates at a pressure of 0.15 to 0.41 Bar (2.2 to 5.9 Psi).


If an impropery fitted filter element is causing engine failures due to insufficient lubrication because the bypass valve is being used then I can only conclude that the bypass valve requires too much pressure to open.

If the oil pressure switch is after the filter then it still only requires 2.2 psi to cause the light to be off, which is way too low a pressure for higher revs or hard work.

[101RRS]

Garry,

AFAIK the lubrication system (if the filter became fully blocked for example) will still bypass and allow oil circulation to the rest of the engine, unfiltered of course.



That is exactly what I would have thought as well. Certainly most engines I have owned certainly do that.


An oil pressure relief valve normally located on the block returns oil directly to the sump so that there's enough pressure at low revs and not excessive pressure at higher revs.

Some filters are fitted with a non-return valve to prevent draining the lines whereas others may be fitted with a pressure bypass valve that allows oil to circulate unfiltered if the filter becomes blocked.

The oil pressure relief valve I am talking about lives in the oil filter housing (not the oil filter itself) and bridges the inlet and outlet oil passages to and from the oil filter. In the Rover V8 it is a ball bearing on the end of a spring. If there is an issue with the oil filter, saying being blocked or squashed, and inlet oil cannot correctly pass through the filter, the pressure from the oil pump opens the relief valve allowing the oil continue on its way but unfiltered.

If the TDV6 has one and indeed the squashed oil filter is blocking oil flow then the bypass is specification is too high.


Oil Filter

The oil filter is a replaceable cartridge installed on an adapter in the centre of the 'vee'. An internal bypass facility permits full flow bypass if the filter is blocked.



Doesn't say exactly what this internal bypass facility is - I bet it is the little protrusion with the hole in the middle that is the cause of the issue in the first place.

Why didn't they just put in a standard screw in oil filter cartridge in the first place would have been so much easier and safer.

Garry

[Barryp]

Not sure if it helps but this is out of the official LR "Discovery 3 - LR3" manual for the 2.7 litre diesel.
Regards
Barryp
Not sure what went wrong but the extract and picture that I pasted isn't here?
Words below:


Oil Filter

The oil filter is a replaceable cartridge installed on an adapter in the centre of the 'vee'. An internal bypass facility permits full flow bypass if the filter is blocked.
NOTE :

In service care must be taken when removing the oil filter to minimise oil drips and spillage into the engine 'vee' and cam covers:

Do not use air/power tools
Unscrew oil filter cap 4-5 turns
Leave for a minimum of 1 minute to allow to drain
Remove cap, ensuring minimal oil spillage
Replace oil filter element into the cap (can only be fitted in one direction)
Replace cap and torque to specification.

[justinc]

Not sure if it helps but this is out of the official LR "Discovery 3 - LR3" manual for the 2.7 litre diesel.
Regards
Barryp
Not sure what went wrong but the extract and picture that I pasted isn't here?
Words below:


Oil Filter

The oil filter is a replaceable cartridge installed on an adapter in the centre of the 'vee'. An internal bypass facility permits full flow bypass if the filter is blocked.
NOTE :

In service care must be taken when removing the oil filter to minimise oil drips and spillage into the engine 'vee' and cam covers:

Do not use air/power tools
Unscrew oil filter cap 4-5 turns
Leave for a minimum of 1 minute to allow to drain
Remove cap, ensuring minimal oil spillage
Replace oil filter element into the cap (can only be fitted in one direction)
Replace cap and torque to specification.


In red is the offending remark, this IS NOT CORRECT!!!!:mad::mad::mad: The filter cartridge MUST be fitted to the base/ adapter before the cap is fitted. The little tube with O ring MUST be located prior to fitting the cap, the hole to fit it into is approximately at 7 oclock when viewed from the front.


JC

[sheerluck]

In red is the offending remark, this IS NOT CORRECT!!!!:mad::mad::mad: The filter cartridge MUST be fitted to the base/ adapter before the cap is fitted. The little tube with O ring MUST be located prior to fitting the cap, the hole to fit it into is approximately at 7 oclock when viewed from the front.


JC

Thanks for that correction JC, I nearly had a heart attack when I saw that, given that I'd fitted the filter to the base first. :D

[101RRS]

In red is the offending remark, this IS NOT CORRECT!!!!:mad::mad::mad: The filter cartridge MUST be fitted to the base/ adapter before the cap is fitted. The little tube with O ring MUST be located prior to fitting the cap, the hole to fit it into is approximately at 7 oclock when viewed from the front.


JC

I completely agree - at an earlier oil filter change I did it this way and screwing the oil filter housing down it just did not feel right - I removed it and the little tube was not down its hole and the resistance I felt was the case starting the crush down the filter. I removed it and inserted the filter first with the tube in the correct spot and then screwed the outer cap down.

I have found there are many mistakes in the handbook/ workshop manual so beware of these - eg manual unlocking of passenger door is clockwise not counter clockwise as indicated in the manual.

Garry

[Barryp]

I wonder if LR have corrected this in later releases of the official repair manual.
Has anyone checked on the LR Topix site?
Regards
Barryp

[CaverD3]

If that is the official manual then it would explain the amount of engine failures. :o

[Barryp]

Agree Andrew,
Unless LR have corrected the manual they should be wide open to a claim.
Regards
Barryp

[Barryp]

Just found a different version in a different section in the same LR document:


"8. Install the oil filter element.
Clean the components.


Make sure the oil filter spigot aligns with the hole in the filter housing."


Still not clear as it refers to the hole in the housing.
I had changed mine on my D3 now gone but haven't had to do it on my RRS as it is still under an LR service agreement.
Something so simple should be made crystal clear by LR.
First quote was from the general engine description section of the manual, quote above is from the specific oil change instructions in the manual!
Regards
Barryp

[Discofever]

In red is the offending remark, this IS NOT CORRECT!!!!:mad::mad::mad: The filter cartridge MUST be fitted to the base/ adapter before the cap is fitted. The little tube with O ring MUST be located prior to fitting the cap, the hole to fit it into is approximately at 7 oclock when viewed from the front.


JC

Thanks for confirming Justin - much appreciated.

[Ean Austral]

Pics aren't the best as I had to try and lean in to take the photos with oily hands

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BzCKB4qRPcI9CQQoARojO17KdBtzOwn2SwlQJ267t0zpvzthM8 AFRPwv_rA-YcxY6-Bxzi2njqkO-N2zD4TP6q_SJILc8z9EzowmUuXoJFiqf3bUrzc7r_qbwiCa6el RLNPutvWj-xasYNNk_OO7V9YNaUbZ2Qzf3LW5pOFrjc5GV8eI40khlGy48rj sYzMKnqetmJg8I8UqRbLBCwOGbRoLCn03t4BNby0QxdLH8yPyx SoeL8KJhH3jLbddjfUiuc4bB77Ga5kv7Ns7AH6tEkM1Ps49YeX ZxvIIHnk6mIx-iMRBFL0IAJRAL1OtpFc4ITU9k8kTi_mQmOzdaxcJXvmfrROV-T0PgZidD-aJgdWA4Ivc8BLCJNJMq9zO-VSrUNuw-p8robAAcT_u1eZX3OXyNVn6AOkX6mSwbG6iF5TZ6zQPr85g09O Iu9afm1LVInDrPsfwb6ihqtJ74-RgV-dVDRhmtBqC9OlfX7sV8VHVEtDwZ2fQZF7ED3jwVNHRPujF7sSH H4Ejr_oMFaYwvNHSgJuucUQ4OScESiWbHHvlAAd15_wJB5SNnd QQoFF8Q5WBx8ihwfUOT4DFjyfh7a5O2wGw1R4reX62lJA=w868-h651-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NyI_3kH7haLkd4wXe7evqznyCjVEe52g4IxgfEWBY3g1D_wqDr W7ATUxskivsgQ8Kl6xstmJ3iGfUuqR5yBge5uujRmbHRSB_r2n jsY3pYr86MDSzRcIJHHMIjswMKYC9ekBZ17i7jvarm034m6gm_ x10EbhfyXiyu8lcSEB1LYHB1WkcpbuJ4DpkFu-WZVWjAznAZG1roAe9eF2vmn0sqSOCFP6TSOqLspLM0TEiPz38F NB_IHqxSoslRHAX3e1KRzczA1JgfCXUKmLtxKiMyhsTAtfPp2c J0ZS8MOmxmdLvvCidx8W3CgufnOffTLebmAz3M2pGR97THIBgv 2tXuDQc-CmCp2lXqn0Q8_TRohfkIFdfd0fIoD3fzfrSJ3vgbPz3hX-x-HMk9yQXkVaanLkaZVYhvoBBCZyPoxT0lYfWOoIJRl5gcE_-y_QQGcEhqmKSQwbkFEoHdh3Tpe4ns2NmqPGAJivbUmfHaJCKEQ yLEKbZD1s-tsM1Dgo5OsFt4viDGsrBOj7gM3LBtY_ZrwhIiyCUimTai5Xnv5 _1nA6I0zaoVp5CfrJ5jbQzp1sDdNNPWteJ9MJsPoEfcQRuPpKy Y_vi9dIzFZ-VLY=w489-h651-no

The stem on the filter goes into the small circle on the black ring, as Justin said , its about 7 oclock if you were standing straight at the front of the car.its just that I leant in on a funny angle so its showing at about 12 oclock in this picture. the hole in the centre of the filter goes over the housing you see in the centre of the picture.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

For the last week or so none of your pics are visible to me (same as you RRC pics) - the space for them is there but there just a round gray sign - like a red no entry road sign - in the center of the space - clicking on it does nothing.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

For the last week or so none of your pics are visible to me (same as you RRC pics) - the space for them is there but there just a round gray sign - like a red no entry road sign - in the center of the space - clicking on it does nothing.

Garry

mmm been using the same hosting program . will try another way and see how we go.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Pics aren't the best as I had to try and lean in to take the photos with oily hands

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BzCKB4qRPcI9CQQoARojO17KdBtzOwn2SwlQJ267t0zpvzthM8 AFRPwv_rA-YcxY6-Bxzi2njqkO-N2zD4TP6q_SJILc8z9EzowmUuXoJFiqf3bUrzc7r_qbwiCa6el RLNPutvWj-xasYNNk_OO7V9YNaUbZ2Qzf3LW5pOFrjc5GV8eI40khlGy48rj sYzMKnqetmJg8I8UqRbLBCwOGbRoLCn03t4BNby0QxdLH8yPyx SoeL8KJhH3jLbddjfUiuc4bB77Ga5kv7Ns7AH6tEkM1Ps49YeX ZxvIIHnk6mIx-iMRBFL0IAJRAL1OtpFc4ITU9k8kTi_mQmOzdaxcJXvmfrROV-T0PgZidD-aJgdWA4Ivc8BLCJNJMq9zO-VSrUNuw-p8robAAcT_u1eZX3OXyNVn6AOkX6mSwbG6iF5TZ6zQPr85g09O Iu9afm1LVInDrPsfwb6ihqtJ74-RgV-dVDRhmtBqC9OlfX7sV8VHVEtDwZ2fQZF7ED3jwVNHRPujF7sSH H4Ejr_oMFaYwvNHSgJuucUQ4OScESiWbHHvlAAd15_wJB5SNnd QQoFF8Q5WBx8ihwfUOT4DFjyfh7a5O2wGw1R4reX62lJA=w868-h651-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/NyI_3kH7haLkd4wXe7evqznyCjVEe52g4IxgfEWBY3g1D_wqDr W7ATUxskivsgQ8Kl6xstmJ3iGfUuqR5yBge5uujRmbHRSB_r2n jsY3pYr86MDSzRcIJHHMIjswMKYC9ekBZ17i7jvarm034m6gm_ x10EbhfyXiyu8lcSEB1LYHB1WkcpbuJ4DpkFu-WZVWjAznAZG1roAe9eF2vmn0sqSOCFP6TSOqLspLM0TEiPz38F NB_IHqxSoslRHAX3e1KRzczA1JgfCXUKmLtxKiMyhsTAtfPp2c J0ZS8MOmxmdLvvCidx8W3CgufnOffTLebmAz3M2pGR97THIBgv 2tXuDQc-CmCp2lXqn0Q8_TRohfkIFdfd0fIoD3fzfrSJ3vgbPz3hX-x-HMk9yQXkVaanLkaZVYhvoBBCZyPoxT0lYfWOoIJRl5gcE_-y_QQGcEhqmKSQwbkFEoHdh3Tpe4ns2NmqPGAJivbUmfHaJCKEQ yLEKbZD1s-tsM1Dgo5OsFt4viDGsrBOj7gM3LBtY_ZrwhIiyCUimTai5Xnv5 _1nA6I0zaoVp5CfrJ5jbQzp1sDdNNPWteJ9MJsPoEfcQRuPpKy Y_vi9dIzFZ-VLY=w489-h651-no

The stem on the filter goes into the small circle on the black ring, as Justin said , its about 7 oclock if you were standing straight at the front of the car.its just that I leant in on a funny angle so its showing at about 12 oclock in this picture. the hole in the centre of the filter goes over the housing you see in the centre of the picture.

Cheers Ean

THis is what I see - but I suppose you will see your own pics - lol

[Ean Austral]

THis is what I see - but I suppose you will see your own pics - lol

Yes I see the pics. I posted in the mods section and 1 has replied saying he can see the picture , so not sure what going on.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

so will try a different way.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QUYpEb_Dit4NtyjFNYfK5ZyClsEqu9B9ndhM9MY2MGuq-YcWDSdnJ8oPxYuIV_ucU4mp3_cbA3TgUeLsJvZoOr-z5aoBpz00mQGbVv7A6FGf_f6LJJZ0aNpJq35l4fr7yfano6b_O GjIyNDgnAPlRk5ImXvW0ZzClhNQ0WP3UKSrxMUuwHaIgOdBb3a dEDBx9_IXiorLPHsTgGHWKnvWCZz0Cvf45hb8SUdauS4mi7tQV fKgV3fM4BRGiljc7UAxSFme7NtBxXzdE0QnBz8cYmqV31MwqZJ iAi_h85Fa-XBtsHXMCFhi03peNAJQbd7xv6UkIXiMIIPY1TsiBTcBbhyW4Yd 8geRbOcBo5ojotBH1CiVXlnR3k1vvKHI3GE--zln-7TEDhaMOGvkm1qMSLU2PFjyal9_YekvQ3miuUKh_61J8Rn6ulD PhhXIZx7XM_jRKufIp6Z5QNsunQ6pLhir9zmxgWfL3ToLO0JaL tsIlwgoSWgNLxfDb34tkypV2sjG64jr7yRuye3Tspof0_ZeLhf nwBAoNHAR6rJOaX89lTy8oXtOeN_M-Uz4ObLpll0cAkj4uoNnhruoZTVlF6Pr-GgCW8ia_tgBAilA=w489-h651-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/noru0Ibw95KPIYpDzF-FMdvQJ39dVdl0wclGzaFMCYaWcDZir6QammRlhsfyouDFb98Y0 MX0apva6qItjSqDexCorJtBXDLLtX-c1gOkom5XBrG24JF1chR_7XFI7Zbcnc3fZkVV58kn4eQdsdysz lSySjaog-tzWDHGATVLiv0_KxiiWpVsdvRxNT-ijBwdALah1CtHduKfTbitMoOvKoaYtnw-AuqAzwZe4kFzVjLp_mXFv-WM5gikzXFY08tN09pMpXFlx5aweww0jOuu4DJDOP1ONdbM3D3M nU7WaKg1B_0ATqCc2ahkc1XjKymfNmeSBJwoCDnUVEwiSMN0E4 FjgxEy4Cn3EaEvkJd4KqJGCapVxWbwi1R5ib7Wuqm4m5UYEIfc QhvyaBZlDCmQ7ObGEGVofV9fAV54mac1EW7CDQLU36qP-NCQZEe9T6fBiPpAB-1pQUuGpT6htquaoCtQUzZnD29ik6eO1n5vfv501GPdeAN0qrTq QVs9CshDkZ_nr4U7IW2QUaV5rKoazkoh0hF_vPNxz2vfLdIP1c 4uCcfC1A7jkj-VU-6UOaqFU2VWMEz0uIPRoiyeloexb2uX7MNLxtEoiZS9TPc=w868-h651-no

Can you see this

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Yep [thumbsupbig] - all clear.

[Ean Austral]

Yep [thumbsupbig] - all clear.

So I just added the extra picture of the filter.

Cheers Ean

[kelvo]

so will try a different way.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/QUYpEb_Dit4NtyjFNYfK5ZyClsEqu9B9ndhM9MY2MGuq-YcWDSdnJ8oPxYuIV_ucU4mp3_cbA3TgUeLsJvZoOr-z5aoBpz00mQGbVv7A6FGf_f6LJJZ0aNpJq35l4fr7yfano6b_O GjIyNDgnAPlRk5ImXvW0ZzClhNQ0WP3UKSrxMUuwHaIgOdBb3a dEDBx9_IXiorLPHsTgGHWKnvWCZz0Cvf45hb8SUdauS4mi7tQV fKgV3fM4BRGiljc7UAxSFme7NtBxXzdE0QnBz8cYmqV31MwqZJ iAi_h85Fa-XBtsHXMCFhi03peNAJQbd7xv6UkIXiMIIPY1TsiBTcBbhyW4Yd 8geRbOcBo5ojotBH1CiVXlnR3k1vvKHI3GE--zln-7TEDhaMOGvkm1qMSLU2PFjyal9_YekvQ3miuUKh_61J8Rn6ulD PhhXIZx7XM_jRKufIp6Z5QNsunQ6pLhir9zmxgWfL3ToLO0JaL tsIlwgoSWgNLxfDb34tkypV2sjG64jr7yRuye3Tspof0_ZeLhf nwBAoNHAR6rJOaX89lTy8oXtOeN_M-Uz4ObLpll0cAkj4uoNnhruoZTVlF6Pr-GgCW8ia_tgBAilA=w489-h651-no


Can you see this

Cheers Ean

All I’m seeing is the grey no entry sign, like your other photos.

[kelvo]

So I just added the extra picture of the filter.

Cheers Ean
Strange, I can see the added picture, but still not the original.

[Ean Austral]

Strange, I can see the added picture, but still not the original.

Must be some gremlins in the stratosphere stealing pictures.

Cheers Ean

[rangieman]

Must be some gremlins in the stratosphere stealing pictures.

Cheers Ean
Im not seeing your pic`s either[wink11]

[Ean Austral]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Kk6vDt-tFIrgoMCxD7MzyosMcKZWXeIDOUciG85gOjR6wj7Jn2Zhg9b_1 ypNT8Vrx_vuxHAdNvuWaAYjuL0JVq_HCK_qjEdeWYo-lyH866wzxOnatHgwK_FGdxzdfki1icqqGMDw4PvhKQDK1lOYHH DX_SuDoERDLrYPnZfV8fMdOKY4wNZWauPX-Nemc8EZdrAyrJCK9pFH3VPbuD4xPDZwFY_FER-h1JGv88M09IzEDA4LAuFhJ_kp3jXs90mJIaqQ5od6bc_40qTn_ xxyQZxWddywyCCw4QqzyVvdw02RchBxkfBWFiwujDjDQgZvV8K PTMx172P3O-3wtM3cxeqNGwrUA-Qp0XTrTEyNHfLX5YFYU6X5GjO1Z6A8X8Rwang32-jKBVpwvHPcLvbeb7U2D0P-78fYXimOMd6R45PIbQ1gv_l-mj9PtGkZJurHQgGQI6pcUIzzdoyk5VtiYE6LjW5eyMikJwZSOf UcUPex9bHe0RZT_RUm0lwgpuM1cpm0SUg8HnSYg9VXTDCQuw8M Yk7Wq_JRhrLwNd_da24OG5X7G0ZsaR5JJsEosqYBrmqjF4GPo8 6UL1EGGtzKftfaKo3MFlsl540WtBA=w883-h662-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hOOWR0DHEiwdpH5Lxwlj7NE9vxixd1iQOZep-ZQw_Fa8ypgYAXZO-MdJLiEsOvZRDL2tnN8HiyiBxi_Ok95NmOiOCVvs_wNRIwyWtRp EdVFZU5YEwQOmZ8XufJZu79cgCQlsYbjwnrNDCLsnJa_i0Tm5T VI5_IMoz4kA6kVB9q4VzYfr1FCnIGeJmFyVxF51lseJbDi52VN DfdRw061eB7HOdJvEGZox2f7f75954VmVcQkDxPYMmx_VVhRBa 6dx2W05y_ia0RM7WvojGYxg_jG1IbGx3DOrP1At-rmboIFba-5Klr_UgLgUFTg-4NBwgG9445U7ga8-oYiLYd1LRfXeOqJxvicdZkFtzHfm_K-Lv3h3yLQWqAR0JP0UkNjIL6ImmoflCfqGJ3P3oLfXKCCDfc1lb A2IJqYkQf2QF16rld-VtRRAWDxaCWhpopfLOVn3NGBmvDWbpCMFzHbriSxeVMJXMC8Hs PPWRHvdttzM-tr6TQrS57eun31f8RHYnkMWhtSiUIYgVIp_4hkIMcaVqQZCBRT reZhGoL7ItmN1cYVKzGK7oIKEA43pyv4ewAUcO5o2HRCulrKTK Vfqhe3k4PwCP_Jl96Asuqs=w497-h662-no

Trying a new operating program - does this work ?

Cheers Ean

[loanrangie]

It does Ean.

[rangieman]

Buggered if i know but i still cant see anything .
I just upload from my computer to the thread with no hosting site needed[bighmmm]

[PerthDisco]

Nope