Pommie Provent

[BennehBoy]

Just thought I'd say thanks to you lads down under for pioneering the provent with the D2.

I've got a bit of a breathy motor so had to do something to stop me having to keep flushing my intercooler.

Cheers :twobeers:

Bought a provent, was 95 quid over here, some 19mm ID marine fuel hose, some 25mm ID marine hose, and some jubilee clips.

Then started the fitting....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/507.jpg

The 19mm ID hose fits into the 25mm hose, so I'll temp fit it that way until some brass reducers I've got on order arrive...

PCV was filthy:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/508.jpg

As was the main duct back to the IC from the turbo:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/509.jpg

Flushed all the intake side with white spirit which brought it up nice and clean.

Fitted:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/510.jpg

Went for a quick test drive, and popped the tank cap off - mist circulating in there already.

The tank is just draining onto some wadded paper towel for now, but will fit a steel catch container shortly (old water bottle from walking).

Might need to reroute the main breather run to prevent oil coalescing and pooling in the low point.

Next job was to flush the intercooler and intake manifold.

This bit took another 5 hrs solid!!

The inlet manifold is just such a bugger to remove, no room to get tools onto the bolts, but I got there in the end....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/511.jpg

Stripped down the front end to allow the IC to be removed, then unbolted the fuel cooler from the inlet manifold. Disconnected the harness for injectors, maf, IAT, coolant sensor, wastegate modulator and fed that though the inlet manifold legs. Removed the MAP, removed the De-Egr pipe, unplugged the glow plugs then fiddled like buggery getting all the bolts off the mani.

It was in pretty poor state:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/512.jpg

Loads of thick gunge inside
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/513.jpg

Worst thing was that the front three lower bolts weren't even finger tight, so oil and crap had been leaking/blowing out down the head and block - gah!

Hoping this is oil blow by from the mani, and not the start of a failed HG.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/514.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/515.jpg

I'll degunk it tomorrow and jetwash.

Inlet manifold full of white spirit:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/516.jpg

Did this twice, then did 3 lots of gunk and jet wash, got it a lot cleaner but not mint.

IC was next, it had a full bottle of white spirit:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/04/517.jpg

Set my hot air gun onto the manifold to dry it out. And blew the IC out using my airgun & compressor.

It's all back together now, and she's a rocket ship again :D

For those interested, the car has an Alive Tuning PP4 upgrade - full SS sports exhaust, Large IC, boost box, Hybrid turbo with billet compressor, and a remap to suit.

[BennehBoy]

So my car recently started to blow whitish smoke at start up, and blue tinged smoke on boost.

The cam carrier also started to weep oil.

After lots of messing about thinking I'd blown a turbo seal I decided to remove the lid from the provent and test again.

First of all I was greeted by loads of horrible oily sludge:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/05/540.jpg

This had obviously also been blowing out of the top over pressure port...

So my guess is that I've managed to clog the provent filter already!

Anyhow, filter out, and all of the smoke issues went away.

Bit miffed because I'm now going to get an oily IC again.

So, anyone else had this experience?

Could this be because the oil drain was open to air, therefore there was no suction on the underside of the filter?

Why is my engine so breathy, eve though performance is fantastic? - checking oil pressure next in case the pump relief valve is stuck.

[rangie ute on 38'']

Can you get your oil tested, does the engine use coolant, that sludge looks like it could be water in it, but cant Tell from a picture, if it is just carbon then you could have serious internal issue ie rings. If that Coolant in oil then there maybe cracked some where

[rangie ute on 38'']

On closer look I'. Sure , can see water droplets and also green coolant around the thread of your crank.case filter, re reading your story ads up to white smoke on start up actually burning coolant

[BennehBoy]

Doesn't appear to be loosing coolant - there's certainly no coolant smell/color to the sludge (but not sure there would be?). I was under the impression that there's a lot of water vapour in blow by anyway?

Regarding rings, I hope not! Would've thought I'd have performance issues though?

Nanocom suggest everything is in balance, none of the injectors are having to compensate for a poor pot?

Guess there's a few things to do:

oil pressure test
oil test
compression test

[BennehBoy]

On closer look I'. Sure , can see water droplets and also green coolant around the thread of your crank.case filter, re reading your story ads up to white smoke on start up actually burning coolant

That green bit is a reflection - my coolant is pink OAT.

[BennehBoy]

Just to add, the whitish smoke was almost certainly unburnt derv, it stank and burnt my nose & eyes.

[steveG]

Different engine, but the provent on my Isuzu 4bd1 ends up with just liquid oil in it - nothing like the sludge you are getting in yours.

What sort of driving are you doing? Lots of short trips perhaps? Looks like its not getting hot enough to dry the moisture out.

Steve

[BennehBoy]

Different engine, but the provent on my Isuzu 4bd1 ends up with just liquid oil in it - nothing like the sludge you are getting in yours.

What sort of driving are you doing? Lots of short trips perhaps? Looks like its not getting hot enough to dry the moisture out.

Steve

Usually a 3 mile drive to dump the kids followed by 22 mile commnute to work 50/50 A roads & Motorway but quite often stop start (but engine always running!). Then 25 mile commute back home, again stop start.

[BennehBoy]

Added a sealed catch can to the vent, and cleaned all the excess oil off the filter cartridge/provent body.

Put it all back together and touch would no smoke yet. Will see how it goes.

[rangie ute on 38'']

Ah ok that clears up the green coolant colour
Does the engine run at its correct temperature

[steveG]

Is it possible that the PCV valve isn't allowing enough airflow through the provent for it to work properly?
I noticed that the filter material is still nice and white on the inside. From memory the on my 4bd1 is oil soaked all the way through.

Steve

[BennehBoy]

Ah ok that clears up the green coolant colour
Does the engine run at its correct temperature

I think so, it's about 90C usually.


Is it possible that the PCV valve isn't allowing enough airflow through the provent for it to work properly?
I noticed that the filter material is still nice and white on the inside. From memory the on my 4bd1 is oil soaked all the way through.

Steve

Maybe, I was considering swapping the PCV out for an elbow - have most folks here done that? It seems a bit redundant leaving the PCV inline given that the provent also incorporates one.

[BennehBoy]

Beginning to wonder if I have a very minor HGF, 25 mile drive blocked up the filter again, when I pulled it a lot of clear fluid fell off that was almost a thing syrup and sweet smelling. That doesn't seem normal to me :(

[BennehBoy]

Different engine, but the provent on my Isuzu 4bd1 ends up with just liquid oil in it - nothing like the sludge you are getting in yours.

What sort of driving are you doing? Lots of short trips perhaps? Looks like its not getting hot enough to dry the moisture out.

Steve

I'm going to drop the oil this weekend and see if there's water buildup in the sump.

[BennehBoy]

Turns out I have a failed HG.

It's knackered the cam and followers - all pretty pitted.

Rebuild is underway.

[isuzurover]

Sorry to hear. But that sludge is not normal and was a symptom of water in the oil.

[BennehBoy]

Yeah I suspected as much but being pretty inexperienced was convinced by others with more that I was being a noob in my diagnosis and that it was just crankcase condensation - ah well live and learn.

[BennehBoy]

So I ended up doing a full engine rebuild:

HG failed
Knackered camshaft
Knackered rocker followers
5X worn pistons

It's all in my landyzone vehicle thread from half way down this page onwards for those interested:

Disco 2 BennehBoy's D2 adventure - Page 19 - Land Rover Zone (http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/bennehboys-d2-adventure-254514-19.html)

[BennehBoy]

Another update... turns out the head was actually cracked afterall (pressure test didn't surface it). Rebuilt again with an AMC head and all is good. The provent will be going back on soon.

[CU55TM Disco]

I read ur whole thread on landy zone.

Wow.

[BennehBoy]

Ha, I bet that was a chore! :eek:

[Fast Freddie]

Could this be because the oil drain was open to air, therefore there was no suction on the underside of the filter?



It's my guess that there is a delicate to and fro balance between blow-by gasses pushing into the Provent and the vacuum pulling them out.
Most of the time, there will be a steady flow in the obvious direction and I believe that the system is designed to maintain a bit of vacuum in the crankcase most of the time. This is what 'Positive Crankcase Ventilation' means. It works quite differently (and, probably better) in non-turbo engines, but the effect is the same.
The thing is, sometimes, there is more blow-by that others and sometimes, there is more vacuum than others. If blow-by and vacuum increase at the same time - nice - everything works well. The Depression Control Valve (that's the $50 plastic widget with 'TOP' written on the top - wtf?) is there to stop any madness taking place if things go out of whack. I believe that there is a device in the outlet of the Provent, which is designed to do exactly the same thing, and that the DCV can be discarded, once you fit a Provent, but don't take my word for it until I have wasted $50 (I'm going to take one for the team) and tested the crankcase vacuum with a new DCV, with the new DCV with a new Provent - and with the Provent only - I'll post up the results before Christmas.
Anyway, back to my point. If the Provent vents to atmosphere (through its 'drain' hole at the botton), you've got no chance of maintaining Positive Crankcase Ventilation, and you might as well simply vent the rocker cover to atmosphere - on second thoughts, that's exactly what you have done.
You've also given atmospheric air access to your turbo without first passing through your air cleaner or, more importantly, through your MAF, so the engine doesn't know it's getting in and the ECU can't regulate your fuel properly so all bets are off regarding smoke, performance, efficiency - you name it.
My Provent came with an optional cheap plastic tube about 2 feet long with a good-quality tap on the end, to allow periodic bleeding of waste oil, but no air in or out. I'm going to use it.
Thanks a lot to the OP for the great description and the clear photos. that's exactly how and where I'm going to fit mine (I've already got the brass reducers and a 90 deg. brass bend, in case I can ditch the DCV).

[BennehBoy]

Just to reinforce your comments, I added a sealed oil catch can to the drain feed of the provent a couple days after the initial fitment.

Now that I've fixed the underlying problem that I'd hoped the provent was going to help with (namely a broken cylinder head, oops!), I'll put the provent and catch tank back in line so they can operate as they were intended.

Should save me having to flush the intercooler out for quite a while I hope!

Thanks for your post.

[BennehBoy]

Here's what it all looks like one full engine rebuild later!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/790.jpg

Bit cleaner than before :cool:

[Fast Freddie]

Bit cleaner than before :cool:

Dude, you're hurting my eyes ;)

[PhilipA]

Re the manifold depression valve. It's function as far as I can see by pulling it apart is to CUT OFF the flow of crankcase gas under high or even moderate boost when there is relatively high vacuum in the inlet before the turbo. It allows flow when there is low vacuum in the inlet manifold ie at idle or cruise. It doesn't appear to react to high crankcase pressure .
I may not know the whole operation, but it would close when sucked from the manifold side but not when blown into from the crankcase inlet.
Regards Philip A

[BennehBoy]

Re the manifold depression valve. It's function as far as I can see by pulling it apart is to CUT OFF the flow of crankcase gas under high or even moderate boost when there is relatively high vacuum in the inlet before the turbo. It allows flow when there is low vacuum in the inlet manifold ie at idle or cruise. It doesn't appear to react to high crankcase pressure .
I may not know the whole operation, but it would close when sucked from the manifold side but not when blown into from the crankcase inlet.
Regards Philip A

Yup but it will also open up under high boost when crank case pressure equalizes the boost 'suction' - I guess the main purpose is to stop a massive pressure differential causing high vac in the engine.

[CU55TM Disco]

Here's what it all looks like one full engine rebuild later!


One full engine rebuild? More like One and a Half engine rebuilds.

I bought a set of those Roose Motorsposrts hoses too, as my OEM MAF to Turbo hose split, and I couldnt find a Silicon alternative in Australia.

I opted for low-ley Gloss Black tho :p

[BennehBoy]

One full engine rebuild? More like One and a Half engine rebuilds.

OK so technically speaking you're correct :D


I bought a set of those Roose Motorsposrts hoses too, as my OEM MAF to Turbo hose split, and I couldnt find a Silicon alternative in Australia.

I opted for low-ley Gloss Black tho :p

I wanted to match the block :p

Took the car out to the local offroad site (parkwood 4x4), it's now a little bit dirty!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/12/533.jpg

[PhilipA]

Yup but it will also open up under high boost when crank case pressure equalizes the boost 'suction' - I guess the main purpose is to stop a massive pressure differential causing high vac in the engine.

Hmm I don't see how it could reverse function as the pressure differential would increase with high boost. You would have high vacuum in the inlet due to the turbo sucking, and high pressure in the crankcase due to increased blowby, and this would only increase with boost.

IMHO just using deduction, I think its purpose is to ensure the maximum amount of air into the engine is metered by the MAF, and to reduce oil in the intake , as some of the blowby mist would condense on light throttle and not flow as mist into the intake.
Anyway I will concede to anyone with more info as I am only deducing ie guessing.
Regards Philip A

[BennehBoy]

What I'm pointing toward is that it's not an on/off scenario, there are likely times that as crankcase pressure builds (due to the closed PCV), that the pressure would become sufficient to cancel out the boost and allow it to open again. But again, this is based on deduction. Would also like to learn more from others.

[AndyK]

Hi there,
when you plumb in your Provent swap the connections round so that oily air from the rocker cover goes in the lower hole and clean air to the intake hose comes out of the upper hole.

I have a breathey 200Tdi and so fitted a Provent the way you have. I had problems with oil blowing out of the filler cap due to the filter in the Provent becoming blocked and oil in the air filter housing. The blow off valve on the body of the Provent did nothing because it was on the wrong side of the blocked filter.

I cleaned the filter, swapped the connections and haven't had a problem since.

If you think about it a filter is meant to have a dirty side and a clean side, an air filter has an air/dirt side and a clean air side. The provent should have an air/oil mist side (from the rocker cover) and a clean air side (to the air intake hose). The way you have it connected oily air goes in the top and clean air is sucked out the bottom to the intake. However the oil filtered out has to migrate through the filter media to drip down into the bottom of the unit to the drain.

If the oil/air mist goes in the bottom the oil is caught on the filter and then drips down to the drain whilst clean air is sucked out of the top. Also if/when the filter becomes blocked and pressure builds up in the bottom of the Provent the blow off valve will operate.

When I had my oil problems there was oil pooled in the air filter housing which should have been filtered out by my Provent so I thought it was worn oil seals on the turbo so I went to a Turbo place to have it checked out - it was he that pointed out that the filter was connected wrongly. As a chemist who has done a lot of filtering in my time I was quite embarrassed! The turbo, to my relief, was declared fit and healthy.

Here's a link to pictures of my original Provent installation - the connections are now swapped!!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/andyrosy/5742407404/in/set-72157626644610817

Andy

[BennehBoy]

Hmm, I see what you are saying but surely in your setup the oil will be sucked into the centre of the filter and pool there rather than dripping off into the pickup?

[AndyK]

Hi there,
the simple answer is "no" - the way you currently have it set up the oil pools in the centre of the filter and blocks it. When the engine is off the oil has to soak through the filter to drop down into the drain which obviously blocks the filter.

[BennehBoy]

Hi there,
the simple answer is "no" - the way you currently have it set up the oil pools in the centre of the filter and blocks it. When the engine is off the oil has to soak through the filter to drop down into the drain which obviously blocks the filter.

I don't agree with your reasoning there mate, going to stick with the manufacturers instructed setup.

[isuzurover]

...I had problems with oil blowing out of the filler cap due to the filter in the Provent becoming blocked and oil in the air filter housing. The blow off valve on the body of the Provent did nothing because it was on the wrong side of the blocked filter....


Sorry there is some misunderstanding here.

The oil blowing out the cap means the pressure relief valve in the cap is doing its job. The pressure drop across the filter has reached >50 mBar and the relief valve is venting to atmosphere so you don't run the risk of blowing any oil seals.

The valve in (what is intended to be) the outlet is there to block the flow if the pressure in the intake becomes too low. If you are swapping the inlet and outlet around you should remove or disable this valve.

For anyone who hasn't bought one yet, IMHO the Provent 400 is a better design if you can fit one in, plus, some worked TD5s and newer may be putting out more than the 200 kW the PV200 is designed for.. However, hundreds of thousands of people around the world are running the PV200 as designed with no problems.

[Fast Freddie]

From:
"https://www.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/service/catalogues/pdf/ProVent_en_2013.pdf"
"The ProVent 200 is a compact crankcase ventilation system for engines up to
250 kW and is characterised by the following advantages:
? Up to 200 l/min blow-by gas"

[CU55TM Disco]

Pitty its such a monstosity of a thing, very limited with places to fit, and keep it neat, and get it draining back to sump.
Its a shame the PV150 isnt upto the task as its a little more compact.

[isuzurover]

Pitty its such a monstosity of a thing, very limited with places to fit, and keep it neat, and get it draining back to sump.
Its a shame the PV150 isnt upto the task as its a little more compact.

It is as big as it needs to be do do the job properly and as small as it can be.

Just goes to show how useless all the "catch cans" and other devices on the market are in comparison.



From:
"https://www.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/service/catalogues/pdf/ProVent_en_2013.pdf"
"The ProVent 200 is a compact crankcase ventilation system for engines up to
250 kW and is characterised by the following advantages:
? Up to 200 l/min blow-by gas"

Yes, but it also depends on how heavy breathing your engine is. Our results found that engines which were worked/chipped/etc had more blowby and put more soot into the oil - which means the filter blocks at a much faster rate. So rather than 250 kW (for OE-spec engines) I would suggest that a 200 kW limit is more sensible (for engines which achieve the 200+ kW by "tuning").

[BennehBoy]

It is as big as it needs to be do do the job properly and as small as it can be.

Just goes to show how useless all the "catch cans" and other devices on the market are in comparison.




Yes, but it also depends on how heavy breathing your engine is. Our results found that engines which were worked/chipped/etc had more blowby and put more soot into the oil - which means the filter blocks at a much faster rate. So rather than 250 kW (for OE-spec engines) I would suggest that a 200 kW limit is more sensible (for engines which achieve the 200+ kW by "tuning").

How likely is 200+ KW though, that's over 260BHP! Figure that's pretty much at the extreme end of TD5 tuning.