Defender towing advise???

[Hooroo]

I plan to tow my 2 tonne (loaded) Conqueror UEV-490 camper trailer around Aus again. I will avoid deep sand/big dunes. I've used a Disco4 which does it with ease. Sold that now. I've got my old mate (1995 Defender) but I haven't towed that big weight far and think he will struggle with the big trip. I'm happy to buy a new Defender before LR stop production. Theory aside;
Q/1. How does your Defender's tow 'practically'?
Q/2. Is it necessary fit an after-market hitch for 2 tonne?
Thanks
PS.
Q/3. Assuming I get feedback that a new Defender is best, I was thinking of waiting until the shipments with Dynamic Stability Control as standard arrive. This is on the assumption that it will slightly enhance safety while towing the 2 tonne. I know it's not as good as fitting after market DSC to the trailer but Do you reckon it's better than nothing, safety-wise?

[debruiser]

Are you asking about Puma's towing ability or a 95?

[weeds]

I would go the puma.......plenty of poke from what a read on here

I tow 1200kg with my 95 defender, it does it OK for short to medium trips.

[tonic]

What timing, I was just about to post a similar question re our intended purchase of a Jayco Hawk, 1.2 tonne to go behind our 98 tdi. My main concerns with this purchase are Inskip Point and Hook Point for our yearly Fraser Trip. And also perhaps Double Island Point crossing.


We have a Camel Camping trailer now and really don't even know it's there, 750 to 800kg. I used to tow 2 tonne of Prill on a tandem trailer with my mates 98 130 and it handled it pretty well both on the highway and around the quarries, that was pre 9/11.


Mine seems to be dying on hills more than my mates and we are about to have all the hoses checked around the turbo. Have already done intercooler hoses and have just bought a bigger intercooler, not yet installed. Am also considering VNT upgrade. I want to stay tdi and consider these upgrades expensive but still cheaper than buying a Puma.


Thanks for this thread, looking forward to the responses.

[debruiser]

My 2.2 puma 90 tows pretty good, have towed a car trailer with a SWB on it, went pretty good and did a 800km trip. I often tow a 1.4t trailer with it, and I don't really have any problems.... might not be as quick as a Ranger or disco or something but I still prefer my 90.

Can't comment on the Tdi's as a comparison, I've never driven one....

[uninformed]

20 year old Tdi vs brand new Tdci? No contest! :D

I have never driven a Tdci, I do have my opinions on what things LR should have done. That being said, I do own a 98 Tdi and have done my fair share of towing in it with:

Stock Tdi
Tuned Tdi
HS 2.8 Tgv.

If I was in your boots, I would go for the Tdci. It has approx 100nm over the Tdi stock vs stock, It has a better gearbox with a much deeper first gear. It has better door seals (in fact all seals will be better by nature of age, if not as well as design) It has better HVAC, has better dash layout.

Yes there are a few points which may be worse (say the P38 rear diff vs the Sals) but they really are not as big an issue as the interweb may make out.

Buy the Tdci, keep the Tdi, sell which ever one you want to after the end of the year when they can not be bought new anymore and prices are strong ;)

[Drover]

I've got a UEV440 that I tow with my 2008 PUMA SVX.

The 440 weights 1150kg's TARE. Add 150L of water, food, clothes and few bits the real life tow weight is about 1400kg's.

A UEV490 is 1450kg's TARE, carrys the same 150L of water. Add your food etc I can't see your tow weight to much more that 1700kg's.

My PUMA has cat and centre muffler removed, Allisport intercooler and BAS remap.

I have taken the the UEV to Fraser Island and crossed Indian head on hot dry day. Just got home last night from a trip to Seaforth QLD (Mackay) covered 4500k's in just 10 days.

In July we are going on a trip the Central Australia with the full intention of spending 2 or 3 week in the Simpson Desert.

With the weight of the 440 (Loaded) and the fact that my PUMA that carrys lots of extra weight on accesories( bull bar, winch, drawer system, wheel hanger and sliders) and runs 33's. It tows great, I sit on 100kmh everywhere, some hills back to 5th and down to 90kmh and on the massive hills 4th.

This last trip I averaged 14.2L/100k's.

I wouldn't hesitate to tow mine around Australia and if SWMBO gets her way we will be shortly.

[PAT303]

Tdi's come alive with a good dyno tune,thats were I'd start. Pat

[uninformed]

Tdi's come alive with a good dyno tune,thats were I'd start. Pat

On 20 year old hoses, seals, gaskets, etc... Surely the new Tdci is the better option for $$ and peace of mind for a big Oz trip towing

[slug_burner]

Tdci if you can get one.

Tdi will do it, just a bit slower and not as comfortable in the AC compartment.

[Marty110]

[/quote] Tdci: It has a better gearbox with a much deeper first gear. [/quote]

I think this is the main point - I towed my 1400kg (tare) off road van with my 96 Tdi and then with my Puma - apart from the power which is nice to have but not essential, it is the extra low first gear that bought me the Puma. In some cases with the Tdi I had to slip the clutch in first to get going even on a very slight slope - the Puma first is 30% lower so you just pull away with no problems, great on the clutch. Of corse the puma has some issues (what landrover doesn't) but if you do your research and modify to suit you will have few problems.

[tonic]

I towed my 1400kg (tare) off road van with my 96 Tdi with the Tdi I had to slip the clutch in first to get going even on a very slight slope - .[/QUOTE]


Did you do any mods to your Tdi, injector pump tweak, intercooler, or was it stock?

[David Hawes]

I have towed my 1200kg camper with my 2012 2.2 110 to Fraser Island several times without incident, including driving over to the west coast and sandy cape. Indian Head is usually choked with bogged vehicles and with all 6 tyres knocked down to 16psi it just chugs around the stuck vehicles. On the highway I rarely have to knock it back to 5th and it'll sit on 110 all day. A very impressive motor for a small capacity. Never driven a TD5 so I can't compare.

[Marty110]

I towed my 1400kg (tare) off road van with my 96 Tdi with the Tdi I had to slip the clutch in first to get going even on a very slight slope - .


Did you do any mods to your Tdi, injector pump tweak, intercooler, or was it stock?[/QUOTE]
stock as a rock in the engine dept but I had a heavy duty clutch through a common mod whereby a Mazda truck clutch could be fitted (the V8 has a 11 inch clutch, the Tdi a 9 inch I think, the Mazda which has the same spline is a 10 and 3/4 inch - the V8 clutch doesn't fit but the Mazda just scrapes in and gives you much bigger sirface area).

[Hooroo]

Are you asking about Puma's towing ability or a 95?
I'm after feedback on towing 2 tonne with either my 1995MY OR a new Defender (based on what you fellas have towed).

[Hooroo]

Did you do any mods to your Tdi, injector pump tweak, intercooler, or was it stock?[/QUOTE]
Stock 1995tdi

[Hooroo]

Thanks for the great advice. I'll buy a new Defender (but won't sell my Old Mate!). Any chance on answers to Q/2&3...
Q/2. Is it necessary fit an after-market hitch receiver for 2 tonne?
Q/3. Re: new Defender. I was thinking of waiting until the arrival of shipments with Dynamic Stability Control as standard. This is on the assumption that it will slightly enhance safety while towing the 2 tonne. I know it's not as good as fitting after market DSC to the trailer but do you reckon it's better than nothing, safety-wise?

[slug_burner]

A2 no, the standard is a 3.5 tonne tow bar/hitch.

[uninformed]

Re Q3, and since I'm more broke than a joke, so haven't been anywhere near a dealer (salesperson) I really don't know, but given there is a dead line, AND, the last Defenders have already been sold, I would make sure you can get one at all, before worrying about waiting for that.

i.e. don't leave it too late. I have been told the production line only makes "X" amount per year. People have already ordered the last ones from the final end run. So they have only "x amount left"

I have also heard that there will be a cut off for ordering them in Australia.

Speak to you dealer, find out the facts. If they can put you down for one with stability control and guarantee you will get it, then thats good.

[debruiser]

I wouldn't worry about stability control. Did you ever need it on your 95 model... I don't miss it.... just more stupid electronic stuff to go wrong.... use your right foot appropriately instead :p

I agree with Uninformed - get one while you can over maybe getting one that might have some extra doodad

[PAT303]

The TDCi's are coming out with stability control?. Pat

[Drover]

The TDCi's are coming out with stability control?. Pat

Apparently !

[Hooroo]

From an Aussie dealer in response to my email...'Thank you for your enquiry about a new Land Rover Defender.
From all reports Dynamic Stability Control will be standard on MY15 Defender 90 and 110 variants.
Production for these is expected to begin approx. July 2014, it is generally a 2 month time frame to ship them out to Australia, so I would expect a July build to arrive in October.'
Yes, the timing will need to be right.
After getting about in a couple of D3's and a D4 I know what you mean about the electronic stuff.

Q/ I was hoping someone could offer technical advice on any safety advantage of DSC while towing a heavy van?

Q/ I'm also wondering why people bother fitting expensive after market tow hitch receiver like the MitchellBros? Have the Army used the standard setup?

[Drover]

The "Mitch Hitch" is for the D3/4 used specially to do away with the plough that is stock tow bar.

The stock LR bar on the Defender (rated at 3500kg's) is fine. I have towed my 440 many a mile over rough roads and prior to that a Coromal off roader weighing in at2200kg's. The tow bar is 6 years old now and no issues.

The only issue with the factory bar is that it is not compatible with all after market long range tanks.

[AndyG]

I have a Defender on order for a June build, I could defer, but how significant is DSC on something like a Defender, plus I love to slide on dirt?

[Hooroo]

Congrats on your order. I bet you can't wait.

While I could get back in to a D4 for it's superior safety features, I'm not going to. That said, as I tow the Conqueror with family on board I'm happy to take the DSC safety feature on the Defender IF it improves towing safety?

I know people can suggest driving slower etc., but assuming I'm doing the right thing and it still hits the fan, can DSC be an advantage?

[Drover]

DSC will react much quicker than you will. That's not to say that a person could not control the slide or drift but DSC will be onto it much faster, probably before you even realise it's happening.

[uninformed]

How many people are having safety issues towing with current and older defenders?

[Chops]

How many people are having safety issues towing with current and older defenders?

I've towed quite heavily laden trailers with the Puma, and I've never had any issues. My rig doesn't even have ABS, so in the wet, I've come to more grief than in the dry, with and without the trailer.
I generally drive a bit more cautiously with a trailer on though.

[Trout]

I have a tdi and a puma and tow heavy loads with both. Loaded car trailers etc. both will do it perfectly safely. My puma is a 90 and my tdi is a 110. The 110 feels way more stable. The tdi will do the job just fine but slower and with more noise. Getting going can be hard sometimes but that is what low range is for. It's not hard to change from low to high on the fly. The puma is quiet and does not notice the hills. The low first is great. I would take either off-road towing without any concern. If you have the money and want a reliable new car buy the puma. If you don't mind the maintenance repairs etc then just keep the tdi and use it. Having said that I prefer to drive tdi unless it's hot - as the puma has better air con.

[Hooroo]

Answer to Q/3 is summarised in the last paragraph ***. This is the best technical info I've found so far.

Weight Distribution in Trailer Design and Loading

The researchers concluded that the best way to minimise trailer yaw inertia – the tendency for the trailer to sway laterally - was to position any trailer load at or near the centre of gravity. Loads fore and aft of that position increased the likelihood of towing instability.

The optimum nose mass (ball load) was found to be 6-8 percent of the trailer’s gross mass. This is quite different from the common ‘rule of thumb’ relied on in Australia and the USA, where ball loads of 10-15 percent are common.

Provided the measurement didn’t increase the ball weight beyond eight percent of trailer gross mass the greater the distance between the coupling and the axle, the more stable the trailer was in test manoeuvres.

***The researchers evaluated car ESC, by performing stability manoeuvres with ESC alternately switched on and off. The trailers did not have TSC, yet even without this program, car-only ESC produced more stable behaviour than did the non-ESC tests.

This excerpt is from: outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/driving-towing-towing/towball-weight-and-trailer-stability

[schuy1]

Knowing that a trailer towed better with a greater distance between axle and coupling used to be common knowledge. The old man used to build trailers and would never place an axle closer than a wheel diameter to the the coupling. EG. 13inch wheel, 13inchs behind center, dual axles, front always diameter behind center. Never to our knowledge did any of them misbehave during use, and he built a lot for a lot of people with varying uses.
Sadly, it seems "Engineers" know better know a days! :D
Cheers Scott

[PAT303]

Have a look over at the caravaners forum,lots of really useless info on towing over there by first time caravan owners who have no idea about heavy vehicles. Pat

[schuy1]

And thats really scary :o when you know they are out on the roads!! And its not just first time owners either!. It is getting to a stage where even I am thinking a HV / HC licence is needed for them.
Cheers Scott

[Hooroo]

Thanks gents. I've received some useful info from those of you with Defender towing experience via this Thread and Private Messages.

In summary, I've decided a new Defender will have enough power to tow my load, so I'll buy one (my old mate would struggle so he can have a trip off).
I will also use the standard LR tow hitch receiver.
I will try to get one with ECT (after my recent info gathering as shared on the Thread).

Yet to be decided: Do I do the next big trip WITHOUT remapping. YES, as I won't be doing mountain or big dune driving and won't be in a hurry.
The rough plan is Melb-Flinders-Old Andado-Uluru-Daly Waters Hotel-Gibb River Road-Broome-down the W.A coast for a look-wander over to Rudall River N.P-then wander through the Gibson Desert-Melb. On my return I'll rethink the remap.

Hooroo

[uninformed]

I personally would not re chip straight out of box. I would wait for some run in and warrantee period.

[PAT303]

Hooroo,I've travelled those same roads,spend the money on some under floor insulation,Traxide battery set-up and a set of LED headlights,if you are 6' or over some mulgo seat rails are a must,I'd buy them anyway so your better half can stretch her legs while your driving.A sill tank or rear quarter tank will increase your range between fills. Pat

[Hooroo]

Thanks for more good, practical advise. It's handy to get tips from those of you that have been-there-done-that and tried and tested add-on's. It takes some of the hassle, and more importantly some of the risk out of solo remote area travel. Much appreciated.

[Hooroo]

I've just paid a deposit on a new Landie after sending seven dealers an enquiry and receiving replies from three.

I lucked it in. The dealer at Massaro Motors in Morwell, VIC replied that they were about to take delivery of a MY15 Keswick Green w. Fuji white roof Station Wagon incl. MT tyres, front mud flaps, rubber mats and tow pack. As it's a MY15 it has dynamic stability control. Exactly what I wanted.

I was very happy with the drive away price so job done. It arrived at the dealer's 24hrs later.

I wanted to say thanks to everyone who gave me constructive advice.

This will be the last 110 I'll ever buy.

Let the fun continue...

[Hooroo]

FYI: after asking the dealer if the fitted OEM tow pack required me to fit an accessory for my Tekonsha trailer brake controller (for attaching our Conqueror UEV-490), my dealer wrote:

"You do not need any fancy ECU’s or ECM’s to wire your brake unit into your Defender.
You can pick-up the feed wires in the r/h/r ¼ panel area, above the tail-light and wire into the Teckonsha brake unit in the front of the vehicle. Very simple and basic.
We can fit it for you if you wish. We would charge approx. $150.00 + any wires, terminals etc.
Service Manager"

Hooroo